Hey, I just met you and this is crazy. No, this is literally crazy.
May 26, 2012 6:29 PM Subscribe
I'm hopelessly, desperately clueless at dating. Extensive tl;dr content contained herein. Be gentle, but above all: HALP. Now, watch as I over think my plate of beans.
I'm separated—for almost a year—and soon to be divorced. Not long after getting separated, I began to see someone and it became pretty serious. She was really kind and sweet, but she was several years younger than me (I'm 33) and I could never really get past it. Our lives were just in very different places, and I could detect she not only wanted "more" from what we had but she also, sadly, couldn't really articulate what "more" meant. We broke up about two months ago. I've been on a few dates with someone else, but there's no real spark there. I did OKC (which I found awful), but didn't go on any dates.
Then I was introduced to this person, and—like the cliche—it completely threw me for a loop. I've silently hoped to meet someone like her for years, never thinking I actually would. She's funny, progressive, incredibly intelligent, beautiful—you name it. I am smitten. I guess a lot of this has to do with the fact that I really like this person, so it makes it seem like everything is under a microscope.
We've hung out several times now, and I'm pretty sure these are what you might call "dates"; she works late hours, so we meet up after she works and are routinely out until very late. We talk and talk about everything in the world. And she *laughs*—oh my gods SO much laughing. I have a need to be funny, and she fulfills it tenfold. She compliments me (even though I'm no prize), and there's some touching and lots of eye contact but not so much as a kiss yet (more on that below). Recently we were out until dawn, and never ran out of things to say.
But here's my dilemma. I'm terrified. I'm so worried about fucking this up that I'm almost certain I will. I've been really available and have tried to be Johnny on the spot when it comes to hanging out at all hours. Aren't I supposed to play it cool? We also text and leave each other images on that billion dollar image service, and even though I probably only text her 3-4 times a day (and even then only one day out of the week) I feel like I'm creeping her out, even though that seems ridiculous.
We had made (very tentative, not concrete) plans to hang out last night, and I didn't hear from her. My rational, once-married, father of a 2.5 year old brain knew this was no big deal—but my inner 19 year old was crushed. This morning she texted to apologize, which was totally unnecessary but felt like getting a stay from the governor. There's nothing cool about that.
So, my questions are:
- What in the actual fuck? I mean, really? I'm a grown man. After my marriage (which, courtship included, lasted ten years) I thought I'd never go through this teenage nonsense again. But here I am.
- I've also never made the first move. My ex-wife gave me our first kiss so that we could "get it out of the way"; had she not done it, I'd probably still be trying to figure it out. I have an impulse to hold or kiss this person, but after my marriage I'm sort of stigmatized about it. My wife was not really physically affectionate, and I "unlearned" everything I knew about PDA and how to do it. I'm terrified that I'll get the same eye rolling or strained half smile from this person that I got from my wife. I'm pretty sure I won't, but there's a fear.
- Are there rules about how often to ask her to spend time with me? We spent three consecutive days hanging out last week, and no one asked anyone out; I would get a text that said, basically, "I'm finally out meet me at the place in 20 minutes." (That alone was fucking amazing.) But now I've moved into this thing where I feel like I'm asking her out too often. Is that bad? Is there a rule about this?
- I guess having said all that, should I even be trying this at all? Maybe I would be better served by doing a few years of therapy before I taint another poor soul with my special brand of crazy.
- And most importantly, if this does not turn into a romantic thing how can I avoid creeping her out so thoroughly that we can't be friends? She's so genuinely wonderful and cool that it would be a shame to not be friends just because I'm over eager.
I have more questions, but if I ask them I'll owe you all a co-pay. Any advice you can give about how to take some of the guesswork and terror out of this is much appreciated. Thanks!
I'm separated—for almost a year—and soon to be divorced. Not long after getting separated, I began to see someone and it became pretty serious. She was really kind and sweet, but she was several years younger than me (I'm 33) and I could never really get past it. Our lives were just in very different places, and I could detect she not only wanted "more" from what we had but she also, sadly, couldn't really articulate what "more" meant. We broke up about two months ago. I've been on a few dates with someone else, but there's no real spark there. I did OKC (which I found awful), but didn't go on any dates.
Then I was introduced to this person, and—like the cliche—it completely threw me for a loop. I've silently hoped to meet someone like her for years, never thinking I actually would. She's funny, progressive, incredibly intelligent, beautiful—you name it. I am smitten. I guess a lot of this has to do with the fact that I really like this person, so it makes it seem like everything is under a microscope.
We've hung out several times now, and I'm pretty sure these are what you might call "dates"; she works late hours, so we meet up after she works and are routinely out until very late. We talk and talk about everything in the world. And she *laughs*—oh my gods SO much laughing. I have a need to be funny, and she fulfills it tenfold. She compliments me (even though I'm no prize), and there's some touching and lots of eye contact but not so much as a kiss yet (more on that below). Recently we were out until dawn, and never ran out of things to say.
But here's my dilemma. I'm terrified. I'm so worried about fucking this up that I'm almost certain I will. I've been really available and have tried to be Johnny on the spot when it comes to hanging out at all hours. Aren't I supposed to play it cool? We also text and leave each other images on that billion dollar image service, and even though I probably only text her 3-4 times a day (and even then only one day out of the week) I feel like I'm creeping her out, even though that seems ridiculous.
We had made (very tentative, not concrete) plans to hang out last night, and I didn't hear from her. My rational, once-married, father of a 2.5 year old brain knew this was no big deal—but my inner 19 year old was crushed. This morning she texted to apologize, which was totally unnecessary but felt like getting a stay from the governor. There's nothing cool about that.
So, my questions are:
- What in the actual fuck? I mean, really? I'm a grown man. After my marriage (which, courtship included, lasted ten years) I thought I'd never go through this teenage nonsense again. But here I am.
- I've also never made the first move. My ex-wife gave me our first kiss so that we could "get it out of the way"; had she not done it, I'd probably still be trying to figure it out. I have an impulse to hold or kiss this person, but after my marriage I'm sort of stigmatized about it. My wife was not really physically affectionate, and I "unlearned" everything I knew about PDA and how to do it. I'm terrified that I'll get the same eye rolling or strained half smile from this person that I got from my wife. I'm pretty sure I won't, but there's a fear.
- Are there rules about how often to ask her to spend time with me? We spent three consecutive days hanging out last week, and no one asked anyone out; I would get a text that said, basically, "I'm finally out meet me at the place in 20 minutes." (That alone was fucking amazing.) But now I've moved into this thing where I feel like I'm asking her out too often. Is that bad? Is there a rule about this?
- I guess having said all that, should I even be trying this at all? Maybe I would be better served by doing a few years of therapy before I taint another poor soul with my special brand of crazy.
- And most importantly, if this does not turn into a romantic thing how can I avoid creeping her out so thoroughly that we can't be friends? She's so genuinely wonderful and cool that it would be a shame to not be friends just because I'm over eager.
I have more questions, but if I ask them I'll owe you all a co-pay. Any advice you can give about how to take some of the guesswork and terror out of this is much appreciated. Thanks!
"I've hoped to meet someone like you for years, and since we've already stayed out laughing and talking until dawn, would you like to try out the first part and let me take you on a date? We can meet at our regular place, but this time I'll feed you and attempt woo you and everything."
posted by rumposinc at 7:06 PM on May 26, 2012 [11 favorites]
posted by rumposinc at 7:06 PM on May 26, 2012 [11 favorites]
This is limerence. It's kind of great. And if you are hanging out in the middle of the night three times a week it's a good bet she likes you too. Seize the day and kiss her, or at least don't talk yourself out of a good thing (i.e. asking if you need therapy just because you have a crush).
You could also ask: "Hey, do you want to kiss?" Then she'll either say yes, in which case BONANZA, or she'll tell you she is a married celibate nun, and then you can have a heart attack and scale back your expectations and be friends.
The fastest way to scale back the terror is to take the flying leap!
posted by feets at 7:15 PM on May 26, 2012 [5 favorites]
You could also ask: "Hey, do you want to kiss?" Then she'll either say yes, in which case BONANZA, or she'll tell you she is a married celibate nun, and then you can have a heart attack and scale back your expectations and be friends.
The fastest way to scale back the terror is to take the flying leap!
posted by feets at 7:15 PM on May 26, 2012 [5 favorites]
Call her or text her, and ask her on a Definite Date (you don't need a whole explanation about why you're asking and stuff, just say "I'd like to take you to dinner. Are you free next friday?"), and pick her up (instead of meeting her there), and pay for dinner, and just generally make it date-like, and after dinner go to a bar, and in that bar, or on the walk to the bar, kiss her. Just do it. She's waiting for you to kiss her. She's touching your arm and stuff because she wants you to kiss her. I swear.
Then, it will be clear that you're dating, and that you're interested in each other, and a lot of the weirdness of all the uncertainty will go away. Sort of take control of the situation - ask her out, make plans, act like a good boyfriend even if you aren't yet.
Relax. She likes you! You like her! And you're being yourself, and you're not putting up walls or playing games, and you still like each other! So relax. The best way to fuck this up is to worry about fucking it up, the best way to make it go how you want to go is to just ask her out and kiss her.
posted by Kololo at 7:17 PM on May 26, 2012 [13 favorites]
Then, it will be clear that you're dating, and that you're interested in each other, and a lot of the weirdness of all the uncertainty will go away. Sort of take control of the situation - ask her out, make plans, act like a good boyfriend even if you aren't yet.
Relax. She likes you! You like her! And you're being yourself, and you're not putting up walls or playing games, and you still like each other! So relax. The best way to fuck this up is to worry about fucking it up, the best way to make it go how you want to go is to just ask her out and kiss her.
posted by Kololo at 7:17 PM on May 26, 2012 [13 favorites]
Just kiss her you idiot.
Sorry, you're not an idiot, but you know what I'm saying? You know you are going on dates. You want to be going on dates. You both like each other. You have nothing to lose by acting -- and doing what you actually want to do.
What's the worst that happens? She doesn't want to kiss you? Then you know -- and that's a good thing.
And, I don't know you, but you don't sound broken. You don't need to seal yourself off from dating and give yourself years of therapy to fix your non-broken self before engaging with the world (or this woman) in this way.
posted by J. Wilson at 7:20 PM on May 26, 2012 [3 favorites]
Sorry, you're not an idiot, but you know what I'm saying? You know you are going on dates. You want to be going on dates. You both like each other. You have nothing to lose by acting -- and doing what you actually want to do.
What's the worst that happens? She doesn't want to kiss you? Then you know -- and that's a good thing.
And, I don't know you, but you don't sound broken. You don't need to seal yourself off from dating and give yourself years of therapy to fix your non-broken self before engaging with the world (or this woman) in this way.
posted by J. Wilson at 7:20 PM on May 26, 2012 [3 favorites]
Maybe I would be better served by doing a few years of therapy before I taint another poor soul with my special brand of crazy.
This is what the love of my life said to me not long after he was separated and right before we finally went out on a date.
We'll be married next month.
As Oasis once said, "Kiss the girl, she's not behind the door."
Good luck. :)
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 7:23 PM on May 26, 2012
This is what the love of my life said to me not long after he was separated and right before we finally went out on a date.
We'll be married next month.
As Oasis once said, "Kiss the girl, she's not behind the door."
Good luck. :)
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 7:23 PM on May 26, 2012
Your 'special brand of crazy' is, well, probably what she likes about you. On top of that, there's no therapy to fix, like, your personality and stuff (you know, right). Anyway, if she apologized to you for canceling, she likes you and will not reject you, so like, umm you should ask her out. Or wait a few more weeks until it becomes obvious that you're both into each other and it becomes 'safe', but that's a bit boring, isn't it? It's good to take risks and seem a little cool. Or that's what I'd be telling myself in your shoes and not doing. Still, not a high-risk situation, so just be honest-- invite her somewhere date-date like if you don't want to say anything. Like, I don't know, an amusement park. With balloons. (Although that's lame, it's also kinda cute). You can be very obviously wooing without overt kissing or language.
Speaking of kissing... honestly, kiss her when you really want to. Not 'to kiss her' or to prove something, or to have it out of the way, but when it feels right. This whole bullshit roles thing is not cool anymore, not that it ever was. If she relaxes you, let yourself be relaxed, and go with the flow. That's really what makes great relationships great, so let it be great, y'know? Don't play a game with her or yourself.
Besides, it's not crazy. Or, well, this is normal and the rest of your experiences were messed up. Being with someone who makes a face at affection? That's crazy. This? Is normal. The whole thing about teenagers and hormones... it just shows we blame things on teenagers that's not their fault; adults just kind of wish to relegate all that stuff onto adolescence. It's one of the sucky things about adults, honestly. Don't be a lame adult.
Uhh, so yeah, being terrified isn't a dilemma or a 'bug', it's a feature. I know, right? Who'd sign up for this, yeah? Well, that's kind of... yeah, I wonder that too sometimes. Limerence isn't something easy to enjoy while it's happening, but here's where you build the hormonal foundation for your future sex-life and all the future boring bits of a settled relationship, so even if it's hard to enjoy it, try to trust her more. She sounds like a cool person. If it's scary to kiss her, touch her face, hold her hand, gaze deeply into her eyes and sigh, etc etc. After a bit of this, you'll both be so overloaded and frustrated, you won't know who jumped each other first, and then (if you're lucky) you'll surface a few months to a year later, sharing mutual war stories about how you were both so crazy and it's so much better now, except you're still crazy. Ahhh, love...??
posted by reenka at 7:33 PM on May 26, 2012 [4 favorites]
Speaking of kissing... honestly, kiss her when you really want to. Not 'to kiss her' or to prove something, or to have it out of the way, but when it feels right. This whole bullshit roles thing is not cool anymore, not that it ever was. If she relaxes you, let yourself be relaxed, and go with the flow. That's really what makes great relationships great, so let it be great, y'know? Don't play a game with her or yourself.
Besides, it's not crazy. Or, well, this is normal and the rest of your experiences were messed up. Being with someone who makes a face at affection? That's crazy. This? Is normal. The whole thing about teenagers and hormones... it just shows we blame things on teenagers that's not their fault; adults just kind of wish to relegate all that stuff onto adolescence. It's one of the sucky things about adults, honestly. Don't be a lame adult.
Uhh, so yeah, being terrified isn't a dilemma or a 'bug', it's a feature. I know, right? Who'd sign up for this, yeah? Well, that's kind of... yeah, I wonder that too sometimes. Limerence isn't something easy to enjoy while it's happening, but here's where you build the hormonal foundation for your future sex-life and all the future boring bits of a settled relationship, so even if it's hard to enjoy it, try to trust her more. She sounds like a cool person. If it's scary to kiss her, touch her face, hold her hand, gaze deeply into her eyes and sigh, etc etc. After a bit of this, you'll both be so overloaded and frustrated, you won't know who jumped each other first, and then (if you're lucky) you'll surface a few months to a year later, sharing mutual war stories about how you were both so crazy and it's so much better now, except you're still crazy. Ahhh, love...??
posted by reenka at 7:33 PM on May 26, 2012 [4 favorites]
Make non-lip physical contact before you kiss her, maintain it during the kiss (like a touch to the arm or waist or whatever is natural at the time.) That will give her ample warning to not be surprised and respond comfortably. Use the word "date". Be like, "hey this has been a fun date. I'm calling it a date, anyway. Would you like to have another date soon? I was thinking a more normal kind of date would be fun with you if you can schedule it, like a movie and dinner? Let's make a date!" etc etc etc. This will make your intentions clear and give her a little control over the situation; she can either respond "oh, these haven't been real dates..." or "yeah! let's!"
If it helps to think of it this way, if you make a really clear, obvious move (like kissing her during a lull in the conversation, when you can't stop looking at her face maybe) and she doesn't like you in that way, or has reservations for whatever reason, you will at least have done the most you can. If you ramp up your affections and she doesn't want you to, there will be a place to retreat back to, in order to draw a line between dating a friendship in your behaviors. That being said, you sound like you're treating her with respect and sensitivity so you'll probably be fine regardless.
posted by Mizu at 7:55 PM on May 26, 2012 [5 favorites]
If it helps to think of it this way, if you make a really clear, obvious move (like kissing her during a lull in the conversation, when you can't stop looking at her face maybe) and she doesn't like you in that way, or has reservations for whatever reason, you will at least have done the most you can. If you ramp up your affections and she doesn't want you to, there will be a place to retreat back to, in order to draw a line between dating a friendship in your behaviors. That being said, you sound like you're treating her with respect and sensitivity so you'll probably be fine regardless.
posted by Mizu at 7:55 PM on May 26, 2012 [5 favorites]
You're not broken, you don't need a therapist, you just need re-calibration. Startling as it may seem, some things, even when you're a serious, responsible adult, are just fun, and amazing, and joyful. Things like the advent of this lady in your life. Unlike most adult behavior, in this instance you don't have to overthink, take responsibility for every detail and grind away your short term happiness to achieve gratification, you get to do what you feel is best at the moment. She's into you. She's carving out time in her long days for you, and elevating your sense of what is possible. You're probably doing the same for her, so reciprocate the touches, escalate when you feel right about it, and for your gods' sake, do so in the spirit of fun.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 8:05 PM on May 26, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Cold Lurkey at 8:05 PM on May 26, 2012 [2 favorites]
Your question is filled with the joy & enthusiasm of new affection, and as such, I find it adorable & I don't even see it in person. She has, and then is agreeing / initiating seeing you again, so that seems good.
As others have said before me, you do not have to play games and be "cool". You may need to keep your hopes for a glorious forever underwraps for a little longer, but trust yourself and act honestly.
posted by Heart_on_Sleeve at 8:35 PM on May 26, 2012
As others have said before me, you do not have to play games and be "cool". You may need to keep your hopes for a glorious forever underwraps for a little longer, but trust yourself and act honestly.
posted by Heart_on_Sleeve at 8:35 PM on May 26, 2012
I'm older and wiser (?) and have been re-dating again after twice as long a marriage, and I'd kill for an experience like your friend is having with you.
Options for kiss that I haven't minded
a. Can I kiss you?
b. Stepping into my comfort zone, waiting (zomg - the tension), bending down and wow.
c. first kiss on the cheek as a greeting to test the waters, gradually arcing it up
Options for avoiding kissing I have employed
a. thrusting my hand out for a shake
b. doing an uncomfortable hug that avoided any special bits touching.
As far as I'm concerned, no rules about how often EXCEPT that if it's not every day, the limerance seems to last longer. There's that anticipation and excitement that's so wonderful to experience again, without it turning into, too quickly, non-living together partners who are way comfortable with each other.
Out till dawn, and nary a kiss? I'd be wondering what I (female) was doing wrong. Of course, I could take charge, but my experience in doing so was reflected in a metafilter post that I won't find now where sexual aggression can be considered a turn-off, so I kind of avoid doing that.
I will always be crazy, and I'm not going to wait until that goes away, cos it won't. I recommend the same to you. Please, feel free to keep me updated with all the salacious details by memail.
posted by b33j at 8:54 PM on May 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
Options for kiss that I haven't minded
a. Can I kiss you?
b. Stepping into my comfort zone, waiting (zomg - the tension), bending down and wow.
c. first kiss on the cheek as a greeting to test the waters, gradually arcing it up
Options for avoiding kissing I have employed
a. thrusting my hand out for a shake
b. doing an uncomfortable hug that avoided any special bits touching.
As far as I'm concerned, no rules about how often EXCEPT that if it's not every day, the limerance seems to last longer. There's that anticipation and excitement that's so wonderful to experience again, without it turning into, too quickly, non-living together partners who are way comfortable with each other.
Out till dawn, and nary a kiss? I'd be wondering what I (female) was doing wrong. Of course, I could take charge, but my experience in doing so was reflected in a metafilter post that I won't find now where sexual aggression can be considered a turn-off, so I kind of avoid doing that.
I will always be crazy, and I'm not going to wait until that goes away, cos it won't. I recommend the same to you. Please, feel free to keep me updated with all the salacious details by memail.
posted by b33j at 8:54 PM on May 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
If you feel like you might benefit from some therapy try some therapy, don't put your life on hold for it though. It could help.
Of course you can only go so far interpreting relationships over the internet but it seems super obvious that this person is interested. Given your situation (marriage relatively recently ended, not quite divorced) she might well expect you to make the first move. It's not rocket science, you can just ask permission you know? A lot of people go that way, it's sweet.
"Playing it cool" is dumb BS. All those rules are for people who prefer stupid games, power plays and drama over getting really into someone and taking your fucking chances. It's supposed to be fun, exciting, uncertain, scary.
If it turns out she's not into it or it doesn't work out however, you know, you deal with it. Maybe you can salvage the friendship, sometimes you can't. You be a decent person, respectful, you don't demand an accounting of feelings she can't control any more than you can, that's how it works out. I have several friends I either dated or made hamhanded plays for at some point long, long ago. Decency, kindness, respect, these things will carry you a long way. Much of the time they will be sufficient to preserve a valued relationship.
Gosh, it doesn't really sound to me like there's anything wrong with your relationship. You're scared, uncertain, excited, confused, smitten. That's awesome, that's a good time, you only really get one shot at that in a relationship. Give yourself permission to have fun, have a little faith, stop interrogating the meaning of everything. If you want to get a better idea of where her head is at about it, ask. Enjoy yourself. It's fun, goddammit.
posted by nanojath at 8:57 PM on May 26, 2012
Of course you can only go so far interpreting relationships over the internet but it seems super obvious that this person is interested. Given your situation (marriage relatively recently ended, not quite divorced) she might well expect you to make the first move. It's not rocket science, you can just ask permission you know? A lot of people go that way, it's sweet.
"Playing it cool" is dumb BS. All those rules are for people who prefer stupid games, power plays and drama over getting really into someone and taking your fucking chances. It's supposed to be fun, exciting, uncertain, scary.
If it turns out she's not into it or it doesn't work out however, you know, you deal with it. Maybe you can salvage the friendship, sometimes you can't. You be a decent person, respectful, you don't demand an accounting of feelings she can't control any more than you can, that's how it works out. I have several friends I either dated or made hamhanded plays for at some point long, long ago. Decency, kindness, respect, these things will carry you a long way. Much of the time they will be sufficient to preserve a valued relationship.
Gosh, it doesn't really sound to me like there's anything wrong with your relationship. You're scared, uncertain, excited, confused, smitten. That's awesome, that's a good time, you only really get one shot at that in a relationship. Give yourself permission to have fun, have a little faith, stop interrogating the meaning of everything. If you want to get a better idea of where her head is at about it, ask. Enjoy yourself. It's fun, goddammit.
posted by nanojath at 8:57 PM on May 26, 2012
Oops,
2. c (option for avoiding kiss)
Carefully turning head so that intended buss landed on cheek instead of lips.
posted by b33j at 8:58 PM on May 26, 2012
2. c (option for avoiding kiss)
Carefully turning head so that intended buss landed on cheek instead of lips.
posted by b33j at 8:58 PM on May 26, 2012
Google the chemicals involved in limerance to get a sense of why you're so amped up and terrified of making a mistake. I seem to remember adrenaline being high on the list. But just because you feel like you're trying to jump from the roof of a skyscraper to a trapeze hanging from a helicopter, you're actually in much less danger of screwing this up. Good luck!
posted by salvia at 11:11 PM on May 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by salvia at 11:11 PM on May 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Don't play it too cool! If you go out and you say you'll call her tomorrow - call her tomorrow! That's typically my guide for judging whether someone likes me - do they actually keep their (solid) commitments to me? When it comes to playing it cool, you should simply pursue the other things in your life - so she doesn't feel like you're being codependent on her. Also, never pressure her (through whining) to break her plans just to hang out with you. I guess what I'm saying is respect her space, and respect your non-her space, and that will be playing it cool enough.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 6:58 PM on May 26, 2012 [1 favorite]