Where should I go to grad school?
February 18, 2012 12:56 PM Subscribe
A year-and-a-half ago, I asked for your advice about grad school in philosophy. I have since ignored it, applied, and am now trying to decide where to go. Help me out!
I was accepted at a total of five places. Several were decent offers, but it's down to two that I'm trying to decide between. I'm faced with the following antinomy:
Proposition: The job market is horrible. Therefore, go to the highest ranked school no matter what, no matter how unideal it is in other ways, because you need every advantage you can get.
Proposition: The job market is terrible. Therefore, go to the program that is not as highly ranked and not as good a fit, but that is nevertheless pretty good and has a lot going for it in terms of money, etc.
Which is the wiser course?
Offer 1: Top 20 Leiter program. Decent guaranteed funding which would be tight but doable (though with constant concern about money). Probably wouldn't make any real progress on undergrad loans (which are small). Very good fit for my interests and supposed to be a nice environment.
Offer 2: Top 25 Leiter program. Very good guaranteed funding. Financially comfortable. Would probably finish the program with loans paid off, with enough savings to live off for up to a year. This program also has a number of extracurricular advantages (close to family, loved ones, in a more interesting location, etc.) On the flip side, though not bad, not an ideal fit for my interests.
Dear Metafilter,
What should I do?
I was accepted at a total of five places. Several were decent offers, but it's down to two that I'm trying to decide between. I'm faced with the following antinomy:
Proposition: The job market is horrible. Therefore, go to the highest ranked school no matter what, no matter how unideal it is in other ways, because you need every advantage you can get.
Proposition: The job market is terrible. Therefore, go to the program that is not as highly ranked and not as good a fit, but that is nevertheless pretty good and has a lot going for it in terms of money, etc.
Which is the wiser course?
Offer 1: Top 20 Leiter program. Decent guaranteed funding which would be tight but doable (though with constant concern about money). Probably wouldn't make any real progress on undergrad loans (which are small). Very good fit for my interests and supposed to be a nice environment.
Offer 2: Top 25 Leiter program. Very good guaranteed funding. Financially comfortable. Would probably finish the program with loans paid off, with enough savings to live off for up to a year. This program also has a number of extracurricular advantages (close to family, loved ones, in a more interesting location, etc.) On the flip side, though not bad, not an ideal fit for my interests.
Dear Metafilter,
What should I do?
What do you want to do in the future? Without knowing that, were I you, I'd take Offer 2, no question.
posted by un petit cadeau at 1:02 PM on February 18, 2012
posted by un petit cadeau at 1:02 PM on February 18, 2012
Offer 2, definitely, for the funding alone, everything else being icing on the cake.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 1:03 PM on February 18, 2012
posted by StrikeTheViol at 1:03 PM on February 18, 2012
Is there enough of a difference between a top-20 program and top-25 program in philosophy to justify the constant financial stress that will happen in Option 1? Because if a 5 place ranking difference is not that big a deal (I have no idea whether it is or not), then I would pick Option 2, no question.
posted by kingfishers catch fire at 1:06 PM on February 18, 2012
posted by kingfishers catch fire at 1:06 PM on February 18, 2012
What exactly are you planning to do with your philosophy degree?
Given your decision, it sounds like you have come to terms with taking on large amounts of debt (debt that will define the rest of your life, in all likelihood). I'd say go with Offer 1; your justification in the other thread is about academic enjoyment for 3-5 years being worth your financial freedom, so you might as well get the most enjoyment possible from it.
posted by ellF at 1:08 PM on February 18, 2012
Given your decision, it sounds like you have come to terms with taking on large amounts of debt (debt that will define the rest of your life, in all likelihood). I'd say go with Offer 1; your justification in the other thread is about academic enjoyment for 3-5 years being worth your financial freedom, so you might as well get the most enjoyment possible from it.
posted by ellF at 1:08 PM on February 18, 2012
Response by poster: What exactly are you planning to do with your philosophy degree?
My ideal would be to attain work as a professor of philosophy. I would work my ass off, go to boring conferences, schmooz, etc - do anything I could to make it happen. I would love to do that.
I am also realistic enough to realize that there are many people like me, and that it's possible that I could be very talented and not get any job offers upon completion of my degree. Not sure what I'd do in that case.
posted by resiny at 1:13 PM on February 18, 2012
My ideal would be to attain work as a professor of philosophy. I would work my ass off, go to boring conferences, schmooz, etc - do anything I could to make it happen. I would love to do that.
I am also realistic enough to realize that there are many people like me, and that it's possible that I could be very talented and not get any job offers upon completion of my degree. Not sure what I'd do in that case.
posted by resiny at 1:13 PM on February 18, 2012
If you plan on doing a postdoc afterward, and your undergrad debt is small, then take whichever offer is academically better. Graduate school is not a place for doing the normally financially sensible things. It's for being as frugal as possible and doing your work, and, as long as you have enough funding to survive and not accrue more debt, the only question is maximizing your chance of getting a job when you get out.
I have no idea which of these two offers accomplishes this, but be aware of the fact that it will be much easier to succeed if the environment is congenial and your research is close to your actual interests. Failure of one of these two criteria is a much bigger obstacle to finishing than is the difference between various degrees of poverty during your studies, provided you can usually pay your rent in either case.
Without knowing additional details, I'd recommend Offer 1.
Also, if your student debt is US federal loans, then you both will not need to pay anything, nor will they charge interest, while you are in graduate school, in my experience. I'm basing this advice on having just finished a PhD, although not in philosophy, with 15k in debt from undergrad that I have not started to pay. However, the postdoc salary I'll have next year far exceeds my expenses, so I'll be able to pay off the loan fairly quickly. This seems optimal. If you take Offer 2, the slightly higher stipend may allow you to make a small hole in your debt, but it sounds less likely that you'd be in a position to make a serious hole in your debt after graduation. I don't know enough details about your specific situation to say for sure, though.
posted by kengraham at 1:17 PM on February 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
I have no idea which of these two offers accomplishes this, but be aware of the fact that it will be much easier to succeed if the environment is congenial and your research is close to your actual interests. Failure of one of these two criteria is a much bigger obstacle to finishing than is the difference between various degrees of poverty during your studies, provided you can usually pay your rent in either case.
Without knowing additional details, I'd recommend Offer 1.
Also, if your student debt is US federal loans, then you both will not need to pay anything, nor will they charge interest, while you are in graduate school, in my experience. I'm basing this advice on having just finished a PhD, although not in philosophy, with 15k in debt from undergrad that I have not started to pay. However, the postdoc salary I'll have next year far exceeds my expenses, so I'll be able to pay off the loan fairly quickly. This seems optimal. If you take Offer 2, the slightly higher stipend may allow you to make a small hole in your debt, but it sounds less likely that you'd be in a position to make a serious hole in your debt after graduation. I don't know enough details about your specific situation to say for sure, though.
posted by kengraham at 1:17 PM on February 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I would email Brian to see what he thinks about the prospects coming from each school in your field/area of interest. He might say it's huge or he might say it's small -- and just noting 5 spots in the rankings doesn't tell you as much.
If you're fully funded at School 1 and can get by without taking out any loans, just not as comfortably as at School 2 (smaller apartment, less traveling for fun, fewer concerts, whatever), I would probably go with School 2 -- if there is a real difference between the programs in your part of philosophy.
posted by J. Wilson at 1:20 PM on February 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
If you're fully funded at School 1 and can get by without taking out any loans, just not as comfortably as at School 2 (smaller apartment, less traveling for fun, fewer concerts, whatever), I would probably go with School 2 -- if there is a real difference between the programs in your part of philosophy.
posted by J. Wilson at 1:20 PM on February 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
> I am also realistic enough to realize that there are many people like me, and that it's possible that I could be very talented and not get any job offers upon completion of my degree. Not sure what I'd do in that case.
You have to start thinking about this now, not when you are about to defend your dissertation. So this can be another aspect that can help with your decision - should no academic job offers be forthcoming, which school would provide the greatest advantages / help / options for Plan B? That is, how realistic are they about job prospects for their graduates? Does one offer better networking opportunities than another? Chances to acquire skills that might help you with other job options should the academic one not pan out?
posted by needled at 1:22 PM on February 18, 2012
You have to start thinking about this now, not when you are about to defend your dissertation. So this can be another aspect that can help with your decision - should no academic job offers be forthcoming, which school would provide the greatest advantages / help / options for Plan B? That is, how realistic are they about job prospects for their graduates? Does one offer better networking opportunities than another? Chances to acquire skills that might help you with other job options should the academic one not pan out?
posted by needled at 1:22 PM on February 18, 2012
On the flip side, though not bad, not an ideal fit for my interests.
How important are your current interests to you? In branches of the humanities that I have studied, a LOT of people wind up writing a dissertation which is not on the subject they anticipated. Sometimes their interests change. Or they chose the program for one professor, and that professor left. What I'm saying is, some people finish a program despite changes happening either in the program or in themselves. But for others, that one interest is what's keeping them in the game and it's do that, or get out. Assuming you are the first kind of person, which program is better to sustain you if things change? Just another aspect to consider.
For a fictionalized (but I am thinking somewhat true) account of experience of a stellar philosophy student going into graduate school, you might enjoy reading Rebecca Goldstein's The Mind-Body Problem.
Good luck!
posted by BibiRose at 1:29 PM on February 18, 2012
How important are your current interests to you? In branches of the humanities that I have studied, a LOT of people wind up writing a dissertation which is not on the subject they anticipated. Sometimes their interests change. Or they chose the program for one professor, and that professor left. What I'm saying is, some people finish a program despite changes happening either in the program or in themselves. But for others, that one interest is what's keeping them in the game and it's do that, or get out. Assuming you are the first kind of person, which program is better to sustain you if things change? Just another aspect to consider.
For a fictionalized (but I am thinking somewhat true) account of experience of a stellar philosophy student going into graduate school, you might enjoy reading Rebecca Goldstein's The Mind-Body Problem.
Good luck!
posted by BibiRose at 1:29 PM on February 18, 2012
If you're shooting for the stars and willing to do whatever it takes to get that professor job, you should take offer #1. To get through grad school, you're going to have to be passionate about the work you're doing. The fit between what you want to do intellectually and what other people in the department, especially potential advisors, are doing should be your very top priority. You need to do your best possible work if you want to do well in academia, and your best possible work is going to happen in the environment where other people are interested in the specific details of your work. You'll have more opportunities for collaboration, you'll get better feedback from your peers and teachers, the topic of your dissertation will match up with the particular reputation of your program.
Of course, this leaves you in a somewhat worse position if you end up not going on in academia. Whether or not trying to become a professor in philosophy is a practical career goal is another question altogether. But if you're serious about trying for the academic track, you need to prioritize the intellectual fit of the program above all else.
On preview: BibiRose has a point. I'm a good example of someone whose research interests have changed quite a lot during my first few years of grad school. But what hasn't changed is my assessment of what kinds of questions I'm interested in and consider important. I work on different topics now, but the program that I picked for its fit with my interests continues to be the best place to work on the new, related questions I'm interested in now. So maybe the advice should be, make sure you're thinking of "fit" broadly, like "intellectual worldview" rather than "list of topics that people work on".
posted by ootandaboot at 1:33 PM on February 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
Of course, this leaves you in a somewhat worse position if you end up not going on in academia. Whether or not trying to become a professor in philosophy is a practical career goal is another question altogether. But if you're serious about trying for the academic track, you need to prioritize the intellectual fit of the program above all else.
On preview: BibiRose has a point. I'm a good example of someone whose research interests have changed quite a lot during my first few years of grad school. But what hasn't changed is my assessment of what kinds of questions I'm interested in and consider important. I work on different topics now, but the program that I picked for its fit with my interests continues to be the best place to work on the new, related questions I'm interested in now. So maybe the advice should be, make sure you're thinking of "fit" broadly, like "intellectual worldview" rather than "list of topics that people work on".
posted by ootandaboot at 1:33 PM on February 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
Whichever place is a better fit with a mentor who will write good letters. Sounds like Offer 1. But that depends on how confident you are on the topic you will write your dissertation. Finances don't matter in the academic job meat market of graduate school. Letters, advisors, and fit do.
posted by quodlibet at 1:35 PM on February 18, 2012
posted by quodlibet at 1:35 PM on February 18, 2012
From the sounds of what you've said, you're not actually taking on more debt to do either option. You're being funded in either option, yes?
If so, I would take offer #1. Not because it ranks 5 marks ahead (though that may be a big deal; I don't know your field), but because it better fits your research interests. Have you visited either place? Met with the professors/mentors/advisors?
posted by asciident at 1:37 PM on February 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
If so, I would take offer #1. Not because it ranks 5 marks ahead (though that may be a big deal; I don't know your field), but because it better fits your research interests. Have you visited either place? Met with the professors/mentors/advisors?
posted by asciident at 1:37 PM on February 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
Best answer: The difference between a top-20 Leiter school and a top-25 Leiter school is absolutely nil, practically speaking. Leiter's measures don't in any way achieve (or purport to achieve) some domain-neutral measure of overall quality with that sort of precision. The only value *to you* of the Leiter rankings is as a measure of the cache that your school will give you on the market, all things being equal in your dossier, and there the difference is between a top-5 or top-10 school and everyone else. (With some subfield specificity, of course.)
I have a student who faced almost exactly the same situation you did two years ago. Had one offer from a high-teens program, and another one for a low-20s program; so-so money and neutral vibe at the first, good money and positive vibe at the second. He said to me that he had to go with the Leiter ranking, I told him it was crazy to think that way. He ignored me and others saying the same thing. Two semesters later, he bailed on the program with a sack full of debt. I am both a fallibilist and moral particularist, but I will assert one exceptionless principle of practical reasoning with complete subjective certainty: Better not to go at all, and that is in no way a measure of your talents, and is true regardless of the rank of the program.
If you are not at a top-5 or top-10 school, your success will be entirely a measure of your own hustle. Someone coming out of those programs can usually get hired at least to a crappy job with no publications; you will have trouble picking up a crappy job with a couple of publications. It is not impossible. I came out of a program that is ostensibly even lower on the pecking order than the programs you're talking about (though Leiter occasionally cops to our insanely high placement success, despite that ranking) and I am a tenured associate prof with over a dozen publications, running a cognitive science program and a couple of regional conferences. My adult life constitutes a kind of embodied argument against the way most people read the Leiter rankings. But you've got to bear in mind what an uphill, all-consuming struggle it's going to be just to get to what people a generation before you would have considered beneath them.
posted by el_lupino at 1:51 PM on February 18, 2012 [9 favorites]
I have a student who faced almost exactly the same situation you did two years ago. Had one offer from a high-teens program, and another one for a low-20s program; so-so money and neutral vibe at the first, good money and positive vibe at the second. He said to me that he had to go with the Leiter ranking, I told him it was crazy to think that way. He ignored me and others saying the same thing. Two semesters later, he bailed on the program with a sack full of debt. I am both a fallibilist and moral particularist, but I will assert one exceptionless principle of practical reasoning with complete subjective certainty: Better not to go at all, and that is in no way a measure of your talents, and is true regardless of the rank of the program.
If you are not at a top-5 or top-10 school, your success will be entirely a measure of your own hustle. Someone coming out of those programs can usually get hired at least to a crappy job with no publications; you will have trouble picking up a crappy job with a couple of publications. It is not impossible. I came out of a program that is ostensibly even lower on the pecking order than the programs you're talking about (though Leiter occasionally cops to our insanely high placement success, despite that ranking) and I am a tenured associate prof with over a dozen publications, running a cognitive science program and a couple of regional conferences. My adult life constitutes a kind of embodied argument against the way most people read the Leiter rankings. But you've got to bear in mind what an uphill, all-consuming struggle it's going to be just to get to what people a generation before you would have considered beneath them.
posted by el_lupino at 1:51 PM on February 18, 2012 [9 favorites]
entirely a measure of your own hustle
....aaaaaaah, too strong. A lot of good people have done incredibly important, generous helpful things for me. Read that modifier charitably and in contrast with the value of institutional affiliation.
posted by el_lupino at 1:54 PM on February 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
....aaaaaaah, too strong. A lot of good people have done incredibly important, generous helpful things for me. Read that modifier charitably and in contrast with the value of institutional affiliation.
posted by el_lupino at 1:54 PM on February 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
Best answer: IAAPP. (And am actually surprised you already have offers. My department hasn't finished grad admissions yet. The profession-wide norm is that acceptance can be as late as March 15, though most of us do it before then. So I wouldn't be certain that you know all your options yet.)
-- Go visit. Most programs pay at least part of your travel, and put you up with a grad student. Trying to decide in the abstract is a bit premature.
-- Pure Leiter rankings don't matter quite as much as rankings in *your field* -- i.e., how well respected the particular faculty are. And, as others have said, there is a pretty high chance that you will change your interests.
-- look at the details of the placement records, which many programs put on their website somewhere.
-- ditto what el Lupino said. 20 vs 25 is not a big deal, and all are at some disadvantage compared to the top 5 or 10. Do NOT read Leiter as making accurate, super-fine-grained distinctions. Just don't.
-- "ok" vs "very good" funding -- this all depends on the cost of living in the relevant city. A lot. Again, go visit, and talk to the grad students. Also remember that being fairly poor is (and honestly kind of should be) part of grad school.
-- paying off loans -- I realize you're concerned about making progress on debt vs. stating stationary. But still, I want to note for the record that most loans don't have to be paid off until you're out of school. You defer them.
posted by kestrel251 at 1:57 PM on February 18, 2012
-- Go visit. Most programs pay at least part of your travel, and put you up with a grad student. Trying to decide in the abstract is a bit premature.
-- Pure Leiter rankings don't matter quite as much as rankings in *your field* -- i.e., how well respected the particular faculty are. And, as others have said, there is a pretty high chance that you will change your interests.
-- look at the details of the placement records, which many programs put on their website somewhere.
-- ditto what el Lupino said. 20 vs 25 is not a big deal, and all are at some disadvantage compared to the top 5 or 10. Do NOT read Leiter as making accurate, super-fine-grained distinctions. Just don't.
-- "ok" vs "very good" funding -- this all depends on the cost of living in the relevant city. A lot. Again, go visit, and talk to the grad students. Also remember that being fairly poor is (and honestly kind of should be) part of grad school.
-- paying off loans -- I realize you're concerned about making progress on debt vs. stating stationary. But still, I want to note for the record that most loans don't have to be paid off until you're out of school. You defer them.
posted by kestrel251 at 1:57 PM on February 18, 2012
There is a relationship between a school's Leiter ranking and its ability to place its graduates in TT jobs, but it's not a perfect one. It's entirely possible that the #25 school has a better placement record than the #20 school. Are you considering the placement records of your prospective schools in your deliberations, or are you just treating their Leiter rankings as a proxy for your job prospects?
posted by mellifluous at 1:58 PM on February 18, 2012
posted by mellifluous at 1:58 PM on February 18, 2012
You need to talk to current, and if possible former, grad students in the programs you're thinking about. They will be honest about how supportive the faculty is, how tough the program is and what your prospects are after graduation. Ask them what their friends are doing who graduated in the last year or so -- faculty will give you the success stories, but you want to hear about the successes and the not-so-successes.
posted by no regrets, coyote at 1:58 PM on February 18, 2012
posted by no regrets, coyote at 1:58 PM on February 18, 2012
Best answer: I would email Brian to see what he thinks about the prospects coming from each school in your field/area of interest. He might say it's huge or he might say it's small -- and just noting 5 spots in the rankings doesn't tell you as much.
Seconding this. Leiter is a very nice person and would definitely be the person to contact about your decision.
posted by jayder at 2:02 PM on February 18, 2012
Seconding this. Leiter is a very nice person and would definitely be the person to contact about your decision.
posted by jayder at 2:02 PM on February 18, 2012
Are you looking at Brian Leiter's ranking of law schools? Won't that tell you almost nothing about the quality of the philosophy department? I am not at all clear why you are putting so much importance on the ranking. The difference between 20 and 25 is almost certainly noise.
> Very good guaranteed funding. Financially comfortable.
School with lots of money have that money for a reason, and usually it is because they excel at what they do. It also works the other way around: Having lots of money, perhaps because of a large endowment, they were able to improve themselves to achieve excellence.
Absent of other information, the school with the money is the better school. Go there.
> Would probably finish the program with loans paid off, with enough savings to live off for up to a year.
The extra money will make a quality job search possible once you get out. Looking for work while waiting table is extremely hard.
> This program also has a number of extracurricular advantages (close to family, loved ones, in a more interesting location, etc.) On the flip side, though not bad, not an ideal fit for my interests.
You can't be creative if you are miserable. It's easy to say, "I will ignore my environment and dedicate myself entirely to my work," by brains don't work this way. It's very likely that the nicer environment will become a factor in your success.
> not an ideal fit for my interests.
There is something more important than fit with your interests. How is your inter-personal fit with your potential advisers? Have you met them yet? Research interests are malleable. Personalities aren't. You will go much further with an adviser you get along with, even if their work is different, than with someone you can't get along. Follow your heart. Visit the two school and go to the school where the nicer people are.
posted by gmarceau at 2:34 PM on February 18, 2012
> Very good guaranteed funding. Financially comfortable.
School with lots of money have that money for a reason, and usually it is because they excel at what they do. It also works the other way around: Having lots of money, perhaps because of a large endowment, they were able to improve themselves to achieve excellence.
Absent of other information, the school with the money is the better school. Go there.
> Would probably finish the program with loans paid off, with enough savings to live off for up to a year.
The extra money will make a quality job search possible once you get out. Looking for work while waiting table is extremely hard.
> This program also has a number of extracurricular advantages (close to family, loved ones, in a more interesting location, etc.) On the flip side, though not bad, not an ideal fit for my interests.
You can't be creative if you are miserable. It's easy to say, "I will ignore my environment and dedicate myself entirely to my work," by brains don't work this way. It's very likely that the nicer environment will become a factor in your success.
> not an ideal fit for my interests.
There is something more important than fit with your interests. How is your inter-personal fit with your potential advisers? Have you met them yet? Research interests are malleable. Personalities aren't. You will go much further with an adviser you get along with, even if their work is different, than with someone you can't get along. Follow your heart. Visit the two school and go to the school where the nicer people are.
posted by gmarceau at 2:34 PM on February 18, 2012
gmarceau, Leiter also ranks philosophy graduate programs.
posted by mellifluous at 2:40 PM on February 18, 2012
posted by mellifluous at 2:40 PM on February 18, 2012
Response by poster: Thanks for the advice. To clarify:
1. I'm referring to Leiter's grad school rankings in philosophy: http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/
2. I will not, unfortunately, be able to visit either school
posted by resiny at 2:40 PM on February 18, 2012
1. I'm referring to Leiter's grad school rankings in philosophy: http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/
2. I will not, unfortunately, be able to visit either school
posted by resiny at 2:40 PM on February 18, 2012
Best answer: You probably won't make any progress on your undergrad loans either way -- money in grad school just doesn't work that way, and the loans shouldn't even come due until six months after you're done with grad school, if they're typical loans for the U.S.
I agree with the other posters that you can't really do this just by raw numbers. What you want to know is whether the prestige advantage + the slightly better fit advantage of school 1 outweigh the money advantage of school 2. Everything else is secondary/irrelevant.
I'm finishing up a grad degree in the humanities this year and was lucky enough to get a tenure track job (which I'm starting in the fall). I'm in literature, not philosophy, which (sadly for you!) is actually a slightly better market, though still totally terrible. My sense of the market is that outside of a few factors you can control it is almost completely arbitrary who gets a job and who doesn't. Two of the biggest factors that will work in your favor are:
* prestige of school - Ivies and near-Ivies generally have a lot more luck than everybody else
* a nationally prominent mentor WHO HAS FRIENDS NOT ENEMIES who will beat the bushes for you
#2 is hard to tell in advance, but maybe you have a sense. #1 isn't necessarily ranked to a specific ranking system; just the name on the letterhead can sometimes make as much of a difference as the specific ranking of the specific department you're in.
Without specific names and numbers it would be hard to balance the two offers you're looking at, but that's the calculus I would try to do. If the prestige/advisor gap seems large, choose 1. If the gap is small, choose 2.
posted by gerryblog at 2:41 PM on February 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
I agree with the other posters that you can't really do this just by raw numbers. What you want to know is whether the prestige advantage + the slightly better fit advantage of school 1 outweigh the money advantage of school 2. Everything else is secondary/irrelevant.
I'm finishing up a grad degree in the humanities this year and was lucky enough to get a tenure track job (which I'm starting in the fall). I'm in literature, not philosophy, which (sadly for you!) is actually a slightly better market, though still totally terrible. My sense of the market is that outside of a few factors you can control it is almost completely arbitrary who gets a job and who doesn't. Two of the biggest factors that will work in your favor are:
* prestige of school - Ivies and near-Ivies generally have a lot more luck than everybody else
* a nationally prominent mentor WHO HAS FRIENDS NOT ENEMIES who will beat the bushes for you
#2 is hard to tell in advance, but maybe you have a sense. #1 isn't necessarily ranked to a specific ranking system; just the name on the letterhead can sometimes make as much of a difference as the specific ranking of the specific department you're in.
Without specific names and numbers it would be hard to balance the two offers you're looking at, but that's the calculus I would try to do. If the prestige/advisor gap seems large, choose 1. If the gap is small, choose 2.
posted by gerryblog at 2:41 PM on February 18, 2012 [1 favorite]
PS: Feel free to MeMail me if you want to talk in more specifics off the list. Again, I'm in literature/theory, not philosophy, but I *just* did this.
posted by gerryblog at 2:42 PM on February 18, 2012
posted by gerryblog at 2:42 PM on February 18, 2012
gmarceau: Leiter publishes rankings of philosophy programs. More useful is the breakdown by specialty and description of what the rankings mean.
OP, it is hard for us to tell you how significant the difference between the "fit" of the programs is, but I want to emphasize that that is the question I think is most important here. You've said that #1 is "better" in your area, but not by how much.
posted by J. Wilson at 2:47 PM on February 18, 2012
OP, it is hard for us to tell you how significant the difference between the "fit" of the programs is, but I want to emphasize that that is the question I think is most important here. You've said that #1 is "better" in your area, but not by how much.
posted by J. Wilson at 2:47 PM on February 18, 2012
Fit is more important than rank in the humanities, up to a point. You really need to find a mentor who will become your advocate if you want to even have a snowball's chance of getting a job in the current marketplace.
Not adding to your current debt load is also a big consideration.
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:08 PM on February 18, 2012
Not adding to your current debt load is also a big consideration.
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:08 PM on February 18, 2012
Another option....take the school you prefer for a masters and work your tail off then apply to toptier schools for the phd. My son is doing it that way.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:52 PM on February 18, 2012
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:52 PM on February 18, 2012
If your end goal is a tenure track job, then you need faculty that are in tune with your research goals and will collaborate with you and help you network like mad.
I'd vote for Option 1, as someone who (partially) decided not to continue with PhD work because I didn't feel like anybody in the department was really into what I found interesting and encouraged me to shift my focus to things I found very un-interesting. Nothing will make you hate grad school faster than getting boxed into projects you're not into.
posted by nakedmolerats at 4:11 PM on February 18, 2012
I'd vote for Option 1, as someone who (partially) decided not to continue with PhD work because I didn't feel like anybody in the department was really into what I found interesting and encouraged me to shift my focus to things I found very un-interesting. Nothing will make you hate grad school faster than getting boxed into projects you're not into.
posted by nakedmolerats at 4:11 PM on February 18, 2012
Option 1, if it is between the 2. A research match (advisor) that is better known (program) is important. Extracurriculars are a nice perk, but not that important.
I think that you really need to go and visit these schools though. It is so different to be on campus and see how they feel about you and how you feel about them.
But honestly, if you can't get into a top 10 program (in your subfield especially), do not go. Your prospects for meaningful employment are not good. Maybe do an MA at one of these programs and try to get into a better program as soon as you can.
posted by k8t at 4:16 PM on February 18, 2012
I think that you really need to go and visit these schools though. It is so different to be on campus and see how they feel about you and how you feel about them.
But honestly, if you can't get into a top 10 program (in your subfield especially), do not go. Your prospects for meaningful employment are not good. Maybe do an MA at one of these programs and try to get into a better program as soon as you can.
posted by k8t at 4:16 PM on February 18, 2012
I don't know if it works this way in the USA, but a friend of mine was faced with a similar dilemma in Australia, and she contacted her first choice grad school, and told them what she was being offered by the second option, and that her finances meant she would absolutely have to take that offer if they couldn't match it. They did match it, and now she's at the higher ranked place, on a stipend that is well above what all the rest of her cohort was offered. I had never heard of anyone doing that before, and wouldn't have expected it to succeed, but it did.
posted by lollusc at 4:28 PM on February 18, 2012
posted by lollusc at 4:28 PM on February 18, 2012
IIAPGS. If you really cannot visit (even outside of prospectives week?), by all means e-mail the grad students at each program! Especially those who are working with the faculty you think you might work with.
posted by nj554 at 4:36 PM on February 18, 2012
posted by nj554 at 4:36 PM on February 18, 2012
Could you tell us how your prospective schools compare on Leiter's rankings by specialty? Or even better, tell us which programs have made offers and what your interests are. (Is there any reason you can't / shouldn't do this?)
My sense is that the specialty rankings matter a lot more than the overall score for schools in the range that you are considering, both because there is not much difference between schools ranked 15-20 and those ranked 20-25 and more importantly because there is more variation in quality of specializations as you go farther down the rankings. In the range you care about, it is quite likely that a higher overall-ranked program has a much lower rank in some specialties than the lower-ranked program.
Consider the following hypotheticals.
Hypothetical the first: You want to do philosophy of religion. Offer #1 is from Notre Dame (18th overall). Offer #2 is from UCSD (22nd overall). Notre Dame is in Group 1 for philosophy of religion. UCSD is not even in Group 4. In this hypothetical, I think there is no question that you go to Notre Dame, despite the financial advantage of Offer #2.
Hypothetical the second: You want to do philosophy of law. Offer #1 is from the University of Arizona (14th overall). Offer #2 is from U Chicago (20th overall). Arizona is unranked for philosophy of law, and Chicago is in Group 3. Plus, Chicago has a top 5 law school. In this case, it is clear that you go to Chicago, despite Arizona being six places better in the overall rankings.
Hypothetical the third: You want to do meta-ethics. Offer #1 is from Brown (19th overall). Offer #2 is from UW-Madison (22nd overall). Both schools are Group 3 in meta-ethics, and the difference in overall ranking is almost certainly not significant. In this case, follow the money!
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 5:45 PM on February 18, 2012 [4 favorites]
My sense is that the specialty rankings matter a lot more than the overall score for schools in the range that you are considering, both because there is not much difference between schools ranked 15-20 and those ranked 20-25 and more importantly because there is more variation in quality of specializations as you go farther down the rankings. In the range you care about, it is quite likely that a higher overall-ranked program has a much lower rank in some specialties than the lower-ranked program.
Consider the following hypotheticals.
Hypothetical the first: You want to do philosophy of religion. Offer #1 is from Notre Dame (18th overall). Offer #2 is from UCSD (22nd overall). Notre Dame is in Group 1 for philosophy of religion. UCSD is not even in Group 4. In this hypothetical, I think there is no question that you go to Notre Dame, despite the financial advantage of Offer #2.
Hypothetical the second: You want to do philosophy of law. Offer #1 is from the University of Arizona (14th overall). Offer #2 is from U Chicago (20th overall). Arizona is unranked for philosophy of law, and Chicago is in Group 3. Plus, Chicago has a top 5 law school. In this case, it is clear that you go to Chicago, despite Arizona being six places better in the overall rankings.
Hypothetical the third: You want to do meta-ethics. Offer #1 is from Brown (19th overall). Offer #2 is from UW-Madison (22nd overall). Both schools are Group 3 in meta-ethics, and the difference in overall ranking is almost certainly not significant. In this case, follow the money!
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 5:45 PM on February 18, 2012 [4 favorites]
Best answer: If your end goal is a tenure track job, then you need faculty that are in tune with your research goals and will collaborate with you and help you network like mad.
I would say all things being equal, if you feel strongly that your current interests are your real interests, take offer 1. Go for the school that is stronger in your real interests (assuming there are jobs for your real interests)
On the other hand - if your current interests are not that strong, and you are a person who needs a strong social support network and wants family to be a mainstay of that network, then offer 2 looks better.
It sounds to me like the money difference is not that significant, other factors - like which program you are most likely to finish and get a job from - weigh more heavily.
Also consider:
1. Placement (getting its students desirable jobs) in your specialty. How do your potential programs go? How many jobs are there in your specialty? (your undergrad advisor should be able to help you look this up over say a 5 year period)
2. Email the grad students and ask to talk confidentially on the phone with them. They will be willing to tell you things they might not put down in writing. Ask them frankly about the specific profs you are thinking of working with, how long people really take to finish when working with those profs, are those profs planning to leave. Ask them frankly how the school does with placement, especially how those profs' students do.
3. Cost of living comparison - does it negate the financial difference between the programs? what are rents like, eg, in the two candidate cities?
4. Do the schools have stronger regional placement than national? Eg if you want to get a job in the region with your family, would you be better served going to the school near them? (maybe something to ask the grad students)
5.. What if you don't finish or don't get a phil job? Is one of the schools much more prestigious to the general public? (It's one thing to say you got a master's from Harvard, it's another to say you got a master's from Rutgers. Even though Rutgers is better ranked for philosophy in Leiter, it's much much less prestigious to the general public.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:12 PM on February 18, 2012 [2 favorites]
I would say all things being equal, if you feel strongly that your current interests are your real interests, take offer 1. Go for the school that is stronger in your real interests (assuming there are jobs for your real interests)
On the other hand - if your current interests are not that strong, and you are a person who needs a strong social support network and wants family to be a mainstay of that network, then offer 2 looks better.
It sounds to me like the money difference is not that significant, other factors - like which program you are most likely to finish and get a job from - weigh more heavily.
Also consider:
1. Placement (getting its students desirable jobs) in your specialty. How do your potential programs go? How many jobs are there in your specialty? (your undergrad advisor should be able to help you look this up over say a 5 year period)
2. Email the grad students and ask to talk confidentially on the phone with them. They will be willing to tell you things they might not put down in writing. Ask them frankly about the specific profs you are thinking of working with, how long people really take to finish when working with those profs, are those profs planning to leave. Ask them frankly how the school does with placement, especially how those profs' students do.
3. Cost of living comparison - does it negate the financial difference between the programs? what are rents like, eg, in the two candidate cities?
4. Do the schools have stronger regional placement than national? Eg if you want to get a job in the region with your family, would you be better served going to the school near them? (maybe something to ask the grad students)
5.. What if you don't finish or don't get a phil job? Is one of the schools much more prestigious to the general public? (It's one thing to say you got a master's from Harvard, it's another to say you got a master's from Rutgers. Even though Rutgers is better ranked for philosophy in Leiter, it's much much less prestigious to the general public.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:12 PM on February 18, 2012 [2 favorites]
There are a couple of things to keep in mind about funding in graduate school. First, how good is 'pretty good' funding? How many years, and how many hours will your assistantship or whatever cover? I'm a grad student in the social sciences, so it's probably different for you, but often departments will offer a couple of years of funding to students to get them to attend, but once that's over, all bets can be off. Figure out how stable the funding actually is.
Second, the stability of funding will also rely on the relationship that you build with your advisers/ other researchers at the university. So it isn't just a question of program fit, but also a question of who specifically you want to work for in the program. In the long term, your adviser will also potentially network on your behalf to find you one of the very few philosophy jobs, so I'd say that fit with people is more important than fit with department. If there is any way at all that you can visit the department to talk to people in person before you make this choice, it would be a really good idea.
Also note that federal loan policies for graduate students have changed as of this year (go check out FAFSA and so on, seriously). Unless you qualify for a Perkins loan or something, then you're going to have unsubsidized loans for the duration, if you need the extra money. So that's something to keep in mind.
posted by _cave at 9:22 PM on February 18, 2012
Second, the stability of funding will also rely on the relationship that you build with your advisers/ other researchers at the university. So it isn't just a question of program fit, but also a question of who specifically you want to work for in the program. In the long term, your adviser will also potentially network on your behalf to find you one of the very few philosophy jobs, so I'd say that fit with people is more important than fit with department. If there is any way at all that you can visit the department to talk to people in person before you make this choice, it would be a really good idea.
Also note that federal loan policies for graduate students have changed as of this year (go check out FAFSA and so on, seriously). Unless you qualify for a Perkins loan or something, then you're going to have unsubsidized loans for the duration, if you need the extra money. So that's something to keep in mind.
posted by _cave at 9:22 PM on February 18, 2012
I am also realistic enough to realize that there are many people like me, and that it's possible that I could be very talented and not get any job offers upon completion of my degree. Not sure what I'd do in that case.
This is why you go to school #2, so that in addition to not having any offers, you do not also have a freaking huge pile of debt you cannot pay off.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:03 AM on February 19, 2012
This is why you go to school #2, so that in addition to not having any offers, you do not also have a freaking huge pile of debt you cannot pay off.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:03 AM on February 19, 2012
What kind of philosophy do you want to study and who do you want to study with? Where is that person and that program? That's really the question. If I wanted to study philosophy of mind, I'd probably go to Princeton or Tufts. If I wanted to study aesthetics or philosophy of science, I'd go to Columbia. Etc.
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:37 PM on February 19, 2012
posted by Lutoslawski at 7:37 PM on February 19, 2012
you're going to have unsubsidized loans for the duration
General advice about phil PhD programs: You should not accept an offer that will require you to take out additional loans. You will be giving up more than you realize in opportunity cost in spending 6+ years at grad student stipend wages, and should not take on additional debt except for very very unusual circumstances.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:45 PM on February 20, 2012
General advice about phil PhD programs: You should not accept an offer that will require you to take out additional loans. You will be giving up more than you realize in opportunity cost in spending 6+ years at grad student stipend wages, and should not take on additional debt except for very very unusual circumstances.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:45 PM on February 20, 2012
What if you don't finish or don't get a phil job? Is one of the schools much more prestigious to the general public? (It's one thing to say you got a master's from Harvard, it's another to say you got a master's from Rutgers. Even though Rutgers is better ranked for philosophy in Leiter, it's much much less prestigious to the general public.)
Seconding LobsterMitten on this. Because the rumours are true: the job market is a slaughter, and there's a very strong chance, statistically, that you'll be writing resumes rather than CVs in 5-10 years. #onthemarket
posted by Beardman at 7:46 AM on February 26, 2012
Seconding LobsterMitten on this. Because the rumours are true: the job market is a slaughter, and there's a very strong chance, statistically, that you'll be writing resumes rather than CVs in 5-10 years. #onthemarket
posted by Beardman at 7:46 AM on February 26, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by SpringAquifer at 12:58 PM on February 18, 2012 [2 favorites]