I'm killing my daughter's love of math. Stop me before I kill again!
February 10, 2012 9:40 AM Subscribe
HELP. My daughter hates math, and I'm not helping -- in fact, I think I'm making it worse!! How do I help my girl with her math homework in a way that makes math fun and interesting!? I feel like I'm at a moment pivotal to her future, and I'm BLOWING it!!
OK, so here's the situation.
* Bright, capable 9yo girl
* 3rd grade in a relatively good public school
* She brings home homework that I'm expected to help her with.
Here's the crux of the issue: I'm fine at math. I have no problem with these third-grade concepts. But I really struggle when explaining them to a third grader. She gets frustrated, and so do I (internally).
(I think I explained multiplication reasonably well. You have three sets of pennies, with four in each set. That means you have twelve pennies. And it doesn't matter if you have three sets of four, or four sets of three -- the result is the same. But now we're on division. I need to explain to her how division is just multiplication in reverse, but am really struggling.)
So, I guess the question is, what resources are out there -- I guess I'm thinking instructional web videos or something -- that we could watch together that make learning these kinds of things fun and interesting?
- A father who wants his daughter to grow up loving math and science
OK, so here's the situation.
* Bright, capable 9yo girl
* 3rd grade in a relatively good public school
* She brings home homework that I'm expected to help her with.
Here's the crux of the issue: I'm fine at math. I have no problem with these third-grade concepts. But I really struggle when explaining them to a third grader. She gets frustrated, and so do I (internally).
(I think I explained multiplication reasonably well. You have three sets of pennies, with four in each set. That means you have twelve pennies. And it doesn't matter if you have three sets of four, or four sets of three -- the result is the same. But now we're on division. I need to explain to her how division is just multiplication in reverse, but am really struggling.)
So, I guess the question is, what resources are out there -- I guess I'm thinking instructional web videos or something -- that we could watch together that make learning these kinds of things fun and interesting?
- A father who wants his daughter to grow up loving math and science
Other than dividing the pennies into two piles to illustrate division, I guess I don't have a specific answer.
I would, however, offer you the comfort that I became a pretty damn OK engineer and data analyst in spite of a lot of dislike for math at that age. Math, particularly at that age, involves a lot of slamming your head against the wall trying to understand what's going on. Then you learn it well enough to use it. Then you use it in real life and it becomes clear. Frustration is part of the process.
Count out a hundred M&M's. She can eat 'em when she can figure out how many go mom, dad and her pile. :)
posted by pjaust at 9:49 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
I would, however, offer you the comfort that I became a pretty damn OK engineer and data analyst in spite of a lot of dislike for math at that age. Math, particularly at that age, involves a lot of slamming your head against the wall trying to understand what's going on. Then you learn it well enough to use it. Then you use it in real life and it becomes clear. Frustration is part of the process.
Count out a hundred M&M's. She can eat 'em when she can figure out how many go mom, dad and her pile. :)
posted by pjaust at 9:49 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
You want Khan Academy. Right now on the blue!
posted by rtha at 9:51 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by rtha at 9:51 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
Khan Academy
Either she could watch them herself, or you could watch them to see how he explains the concepts.
There are lots of problems she can work on too.
posted by empath at 9:51 AM on February 10, 2012 [2 favorites]
Either she could watch them herself, or you could watch them to see how he explains the concepts.
There are lots of problems she can work on too.
posted by empath at 9:51 AM on February 10, 2012 [2 favorites]
Danica McKellar's Math Doesn't Suck gets great reviews for precisely this sort of thing. It doesn't quite start with arithmetic, but it may be very useful once your daughter gets to fractions, prime numbers, greatest common factors, lowest common multiples, etc, which should be pretty soon.
posted by jedicus at 9:52 AM on February 10, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by jedicus at 9:52 AM on February 10, 2012 [3 favorites]
Relate it to daily life. Talk about interesting events, things, or people she would admire, and relate it to how what she's learning is relevant. Apply what she's learned soon after in real life (division? use egg cartons as an example when you guys are grocery shopping). Don't stress her out when she can't do a problem or doesn't like it, give her time to relax and revisit it later.
posted by joannqy at 9:53 AM on February 10, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by joannqy at 9:53 AM on February 10, 2012 [2 favorites]
If you're looking to explain division, it might be helpful to present in in terms of sharing with friends. You're hanging out with Lucas, Joe, Mary, and Rachel, and you find 25 M&Ms. You all want to have the same amount. How many do each of you get?
Otherwise, nth-ing Khan Academy. I also used to have math computer games that I played a lot that made practicing basic concepts (arithmetic, simple fractions, et cetera) a lot more fun, but it looks like those mighth ave gone the way of the VHS tape.
posted by naturalog at 9:56 AM on February 10, 2012
Otherwise, nth-ing Khan Academy. I also used to have math computer games that I played a lot that made practicing basic concepts (arithmetic, simple fractions, et cetera) a lot more fun, but it looks like those mighth ave gone the way of the VHS tape.
posted by naturalog at 9:56 AM on February 10, 2012
Re division: I clicked when someone explained it in terms of a pizza (or other easily-divided large object or smaller object that is likely to come in quantity and be shared). Each pizza has eight slices. Four kids want to eat pizza. So how do you figure out how many slices of pizza each kid gets? That's division!
Re math in general: Look. I'm a girl who hated math. I'm just NOT GOOD AT MATH, ok? No, really. I didn't become bad at math because I was oppressed by the patriarchy, or because I was made to hate it for whatever reason. I am actually quantifiably less good at math than I am at other testable skills. I'm even bad at other tasks that are associated with math, like spatial reasoning and music theory.
It's possible that, contrary to your desires, your daughter just doesn't enjoy math and/or doesn't "get it" very easily. That's OK. I'm not saying she gets a pass on doing homework, or you should accept failing grades, or anything like that. But don't make this a "the kid I would ideally like to have" issue, or it will mess your daughter up beyond her future ability to make change and calculate tips.
posted by Sara C. at 10:05 AM on February 10, 2012 [4 favorites]
Re math in general: Look. I'm a girl who hated math. I'm just NOT GOOD AT MATH, ok? No, really. I didn't become bad at math because I was oppressed by the patriarchy, or because I was made to hate it for whatever reason. I am actually quantifiably less good at math than I am at other testable skills. I'm even bad at other tasks that are associated with math, like spatial reasoning and music theory.
It's possible that, contrary to your desires, your daughter just doesn't enjoy math and/or doesn't "get it" very easily. That's OK. I'm not saying she gets a pass on doing homework, or you should accept failing grades, or anything like that. But don't make this a "the kid I would ideally like to have" issue, or it will mess your daughter up beyond her future ability to make change and calculate tips.
posted by Sara C. at 10:05 AM on February 10, 2012 [4 favorites]
A philosophical aside:
Often in life you need to do things that are hard and not immediately rewarding. Math is one of those things for a lot of people. But as much of a pain as it is, mastering a certain level of math makes life (and college, and certain kinds of work) a lot easier—or even possible at all.
Perhaps you can acknowledge to her that it's no fun while reinforcing that it's necessary, and that no problem is too large for her to conquer as long as she works hard and attacks it in a systematic manner. Let her know that you are willing to help and support her, and that you don't expect miracles, just honest effort and steady improvement. Failure, getting answers wrong, feeling frustrated, and so forth, are all parts of life and education.
Learning is hard. It can also be fun, but the difficulty is real and shouldn't necessarily be sugarcoated or disguised.
I don't think 9 is too young to be introduced to this perspective, and it's a bit more honest than trying to pretend math is fun when to her it isn't.
posted by jsturgill at 10:06 AM on February 10, 2012 [4 favorites]
Often in life you need to do things that are hard and not immediately rewarding. Math is one of those things for a lot of people. But as much of a pain as it is, mastering a certain level of math makes life (and college, and certain kinds of work) a lot easier—or even possible at all.
Perhaps you can acknowledge to her that it's no fun while reinforcing that it's necessary, and that no problem is too large for her to conquer as long as she works hard and attacks it in a systematic manner. Let her know that you are willing to help and support her, and that you don't expect miracles, just honest effort and steady improvement. Failure, getting answers wrong, feeling frustrated, and so forth, are all parts of life and education.
Learning is hard. It can also be fun, but the difficulty is real and shouldn't necessarily be sugarcoated or disguised.
I don't think 9 is too young to be introduced to this perspective, and it's a bit more honest than trying to pretend math is fun when to her it isn't.
posted by jsturgill at 10:06 AM on February 10, 2012 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: I am TOTALLY going to check out Khan Academy tonight. I had heard of KA, but I didn't realize they had developmental subjects -- I thought it was more advanced stuff.
As an aside, I can't tell you how grateful I am for any guidance. I cannot describe how horrifying it is to me to look at my daughter's face and watch in real-time as she learns to hate math.
Also, in attempting to explain WHY math is important, I tried to explain to her how math is sort of the "language of the universe," and underlies our physical world. But I once again began stuttering and groping miserably, even though I understand it perfectly well. If any of you have a way to explain this to a third grader, or relevant examples, that would be great too.
posted by Alaska Jack at 10:08 AM on February 10, 2012
As an aside, I can't tell you how grateful I am for any guidance. I cannot describe how horrifying it is to me to look at my daughter's face and watch in real-time as she learns to hate math.
Also, in attempting to explain WHY math is important, I tried to explain to her how math is sort of the "language of the universe," and underlies our physical world. But I once again began stuttering and groping miserably, even though I understand it perfectly well. If any of you have a way to explain this to a third grader, or relevant examples, that would be great too.
posted by Alaska Jack at 10:08 AM on February 10, 2012
Response by poster: Sara C and jsturgill -- EXCELLENT points. I assure you I am not a pressuring, overbearing parent. It's just that, if my daughter proves not to like/be good at math, I don't want it to be because I didn't give her a fair crack at it. Right now she wants to be either a doctor or a chemist, and of course she will need a good math foundation for either of those.
Sorry for thread-sitting -- this is just very important to me. I will do my best not to chime in until this evening.
- aj
posted by Alaska Jack at 10:12 AM on February 10, 2012
Sorry for thread-sitting -- this is just very important to me. I will do my best not to chime in until this evening.
- aj
posted by Alaska Jack at 10:12 AM on February 10, 2012
Danica McKellar's Math Doesn't Suck gets great reviews for precisely this sort of thing.
This. Great stuff.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:14 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
This. Great stuff.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:14 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
I have to advocate for getting a tutor who is trained in this stuff. My mom (a nurse, not a teacher) toiled in vain for years sitting at our kitchen table with pennies and whatnot trying to make this stuff make sense, just like you're about to do. It only remained a boring, frustrating misery for me until I finally got a very good tutor who made the whole world open up. Nothing against you or my mom but no one is born knowing how to teach math. There's nothing wrong with finding a professional who knows how to do it.
posted by bleep at 10:14 AM on February 10, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:14 AM on February 10, 2012 [5 favorites]
It's always hard to make it 'relevant'. You can do the cliche thing of 'okay you have 20 candy bars and 5 friends, how do you split it up so everyone gets the same amount of candy bars?'
Does she like cooking? You could try teaching fractions via recipes and dividing up portions, etc...
posted by empath at 10:16 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
Does she like cooking? You could try teaching fractions via recipes and dividing up portions, etc...
posted by empath at 10:16 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
Not sure about specific resources (although I have heard good things about the Khan Academy), but there's two overarching things you should keep in mind.
1. One difficulty with math in grade school is that kids shift from concrete to abstract thinking at different rates. Kids who get abstract thinking earlier are going to find math intuitive and easier at first, while those who don't make the shift as quickly might be in danger of thinking themselves "bad at math." They're not bad at math, it's probably just going to take an extra 6 to 12 months to hit that abstract thinking stage where this becomes a lot easier.
2. Girls are at particular risk for the cycle of believing math is an inherent aptitude and they don't have it so they're going to resign themselves to "being bad at math" and not trying, or not taking advanced classes. The thing is, there are very few 18-year-olds who wouldn't be able to grasp the concept of multiplication or division, or even higher-level things like simple algebra--so you need to make sure she doesn't start to believe she's bad at math.
If you get the abstract stuff easily and intuitively (which the vast majority of adults do by this point!) it can be incredibly hard to think about how to explain this to kids who are still more in the concrete-thinking stage. Physical objects are great, that's definitely making abstract concepts concrete. To some extent you might just need to think on it a little bit and get better at explaining things that are intuitive to you, by figuring out to show concepts in concrete terms over and over using a common thread until she starts to intuitively understand that common thread.
To give you a concrete example of what this looks like: it might help your daughter understand division better if you could explain that addition and subtraction are similar because they are both dealing with INDIVIDUAL things (show examples with counting pennies--you are adding and removing one at a time, right?). Multiplication is different because instead of individual things, now we're working with GROUPS, and the groups all have to be the same/fair (contain the same number of individuals). This is also true for division. With multiplication we're asking "if we have a certain number of identical groups, what is the total?" and with division we're asking "if we have a total and need to make a bunch of identical groups, how big are the groups?" That's still pretty abstract but doing concrete problems over and over ("we have 12 pieces of pizza and 3 family members, how many pieces do we each get?") you might be able to help her start to understand a bit more intuitively that division is all about making identical groups out of a larger whole.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:19 AM on February 10, 2012 [2 favorites]
1. One difficulty with math in grade school is that kids shift from concrete to abstract thinking at different rates. Kids who get abstract thinking earlier are going to find math intuitive and easier at first, while those who don't make the shift as quickly might be in danger of thinking themselves "bad at math." They're not bad at math, it's probably just going to take an extra 6 to 12 months to hit that abstract thinking stage where this becomes a lot easier.
2. Girls are at particular risk for the cycle of believing math is an inherent aptitude and they don't have it so they're going to resign themselves to "being bad at math" and not trying, or not taking advanced classes. The thing is, there are very few 18-year-olds who wouldn't be able to grasp the concept of multiplication or division, or even higher-level things like simple algebra--so you need to make sure she doesn't start to believe she's bad at math.
If you get the abstract stuff easily and intuitively (which the vast majority of adults do by this point!) it can be incredibly hard to think about how to explain this to kids who are still more in the concrete-thinking stage. Physical objects are great, that's definitely making abstract concepts concrete. To some extent you might just need to think on it a little bit and get better at explaining things that are intuitive to you, by figuring out to show concepts in concrete terms over and over using a common thread until she starts to intuitively understand that common thread.
To give you a concrete example of what this looks like: it might help your daughter understand division better if you could explain that addition and subtraction are similar because they are both dealing with INDIVIDUAL things (show examples with counting pennies--you are adding and removing one at a time, right?). Multiplication is different because instead of individual things, now we're working with GROUPS, and the groups all have to be the same/fair (contain the same number of individuals). This is also true for division. With multiplication we're asking "if we have a certain number of identical groups, what is the total?" and with division we're asking "if we have a total and need to make a bunch of identical groups, how big are the groups?" That's still pretty abstract but doing concrete problems over and over ("we have 12 pieces of pizza and 3 family members, how many pieces do we each get?") you might be able to help her start to understand a bit more intuitively that division is all about making identical groups out of a larger whole.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:19 AM on February 10, 2012 [2 favorites]
Right now she wants to be either a doctor or a chemist, and of course she will need a good math foundation for either of those.
I assume, from this, that she's interested in science at the 9 year old kid level. So why not use this for math purposes? If an ant has six legs and three body segments, how many legs is that per segment? If Dr. Frankenstein asks Igor to order three cases of test tubes, and 12 tubes come in a case, how many test tubes will Dr. Frankenstein get in total? I don't know if this is sufficiently science-y, as I haven't been in touch with the 9 year old kid Science Is Awesome sort of stuff in about 20 years.
posted by Sara C. at 10:23 AM on February 10, 2012
I assume, from this, that she's interested in science at the 9 year old kid level. So why not use this for math purposes? If an ant has six legs and three body segments, how many legs is that per segment? If Dr. Frankenstein asks Igor to order three cases of test tubes, and 12 tubes come in a case, how many test tubes will Dr. Frankenstein get in total? I don't know if this is sufficiently science-y, as I haven't been in touch with the 9 year old kid Science Is Awesome sort of stuff in about 20 years.
posted by Sara C. at 10:23 AM on February 10, 2012
I don't like math. I did well in the subject in school, but I just don't like it. However. I like some of the things I can do with third grade math--such as creating and monitoring my budget, modifying and cooking recipes, or estimating my grocery bill as I shop. (Those would sound horribly boring to a 9-year-old, I know. I'm just saying, for you: I don't have a deep love of math, but I do have an appreciation for what I can do with it.)
I wouldn't go straight to: It's the language of the universe. Instead, I'd start with: You can use this, just like grownups do, to solve problems, make things fair, and do projects.
Once you understand the basic concept of division in terms of what it is and how it works, some of your learning is going to be boring memorization. You can make that more fun with flashcards, games, and enthusiasm--but deep down, it's not that fun to memorize 24/4 = 6. What is fun is planning a project, or party, or something, and running into this problem (I have 24 X's to give out to 4 people, how many should each one get), and knowing that you can easily solve it.
I also second the suggestion of a tutor--this is important, basic stuff to nail down, and if you're struggling with it, it's smart to bring in some backup.
posted by Meg_Murry at 10:24 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't go straight to: It's the language of the universe. Instead, I'd start with: You can use this, just like grownups do, to solve problems, make things fair, and do projects.
Once you understand the basic concept of division in terms of what it is and how it works, some of your learning is going to be boring memorization. You can make that more fun with flashcards, games, and enthusiasm--but deep down, it's not that fun to memorize 24/4 = 6. What is fun is planning a project, or party, or something, and running into this problem (I have 24 X's to give out to 4 people, how many should each one get), and knowing that you can easily solve it.
I also second the suggestion of a tutor--this is important, basic stuff to nail down, and if you're struggling with it, it's smart to bring in some backup.
posted by Meg_Murry at 10:24 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
If it helps, I hated math in third grade. Internalization of what I was *supposed* to like? Sure. But also, english/science/humanities concepts come much more easily to some kids at that age, especially because they are much closer to common sense, especially for a prolific reader. Math is much more difficult.
I had a wonderful 7th grade math teacher (right when we started algebra) that made it fascinating (even though we didn't learn half of what we wanted to). Now, I'm working toward a math degree (well, mathematics and economics).
A fun book to grasp some math concepts (I can't remember the exact level, but it should be fairly appropriate) is Murderous Maths (looks like they have an arithmetic-centered one that might be good). It's not multiplying and dividing as much as a very humorous, simple, straightforward introduction to the more fascinating parts of math.
posted by R a c h e l at 10:28 AM on February 10, 2012
I had a wonderful 7th grade math teacher (right when we started algebra) that made it fascinating (even though we didn't learn half of what we wanted to). Now, I'm working toward a math degree (well, mathematics and economics).
A fun book to grasp some math concepts (I can't remember the exact level, but it should be fairly appropriate) is Murderous Maths (looks like they have an arithmetic-centered one that might be good). It's not multiplying and dividing as much as a very humorous, simple, straightforward introduction to the more fascinating parts of math.
posted by R a c h e l at 10:28 AM on February 10, 2012
Also--sorry to chime in again after my long answer above!--I think you might be going down the wrong path with trying to make her love math by explaining how important it is. If she's a bright, capable girl that has done pretty well in school so far, I can almost guarantee that what will hook her on math is the feeling of pride and accomplishment that she gets from mastering the subject. You aren't forced to show her learning is fun for other subjects, right? The motivation of mastering a new skill and learning new things is enough to keep her going there, this won't be any different.
The converse of this is that long periods of being frustrated, of not mastering it, of not having the a-HA! moment, are going to de-motivate her. You can attack this on two fronts: (1) get her a tutor or Khan Academy or some other resource that is better than you are at explaining concepts at a developmentally-appropriate level, so she masters it more quickly with less frustration; and/or (2) continue to re-assure her that math is difficult at first for most people, that just like growing tall enough to shoot a basket it's something that almost everybody will do but not exactly at the same time so she shouldn't be comparing herself to how easy this is for dad or the teacher or other schoolmates. If there's anything else in her life that has involved a lot of effort for a delayed payoff (ballet or gymnastics lessons? sports? piano or other instrument?) you should draw an explicit parallel--sometimes you have to get through the frustrating parts at the beginning, but you WILL get it with enough practice and then you can start enjoying it.
Also, make sure you're paying attention to her frustration levels and making it okay to (for example) work on math homework for 20 minutes and then put it away for a while, no matter how far she's gotten, rather than encouraging her to sit down and work at something frustrating way past the point where it's helpful. She WILL pick up this skill sooner or later, and you definitely don't want to poison the well with frustration by trying to force it to happen a week or month earlier than it would have naturally--that will end up to be totally counterproductive.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:38 AM on February 10, 2012 [2 favorites]
The converse of this is that long periods of being frustrated, of not mastering it, of not having the a-HA! moment, are going to de-motivate her. You can attack this on two fronts: (1) get her a tutor or Khan Academy or some other resource that is better than you are at explaining concepts at a developmentally-appropriate level, so she masters it more quickly with less frustration; and/or (2) continue to re-assure her that math is difficult at first for most people, that just like growing tall enough to shoot a basket it's something that almost everybody will do but not exactly at the same time so she shouldn't be comparing herself to how easy this is for dad or the teacher or other schoolmates. If there's anything else in her life that has involved a lot of effort for a delayed payoff (ballet or gymnastics lessons? sports? piano or other instrument?) you should draw an explicit parallel--sometimes you have to get through the frustrating parts at the beginning, but you WILL get it with enough practice and then you can start enjoying it.
Also, make sure you're paying attention to her frustration levels and making it okay to (for example) work on math homework for 20 minutes and then put it away for a while, no matter how far she's gotten, rather than encouraging her to sit down and work at something frustrating way past the point where it's helpful. She WILL pick up this skill sooner or later, and you definitely don't want to poison the well with frustration by trying to force it to happen a week or month earlier than it would have naturally--that will end up to be totally counterproductive.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:38 AM on February 10, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'll take Khan Academy for $1000, Alex.
posted by dgeiser13 at 10:47 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by dgeiser13 at 10:47 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
This won't help with fundamentals or specific lessons as much as Khan Academy, but I'd look into sharing a few of Vi Hart's math videos. She's a "recreational mathemusician" who narrates short doodling sessions that connect mathematical concepts with art, music, and nature in fun and beautiful ways.
posted by Rhaomi at 10:50 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Rhaomi at 10:50 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
My response immediate response after reading your post, which is pretty much just a summation of some of the advice here, is to remember that a lot -- probably most -- 9 year olds don't like theory. In fact, a lot of people never do. So, even though the rows and columns of pennies make sense, when are you ever going to do that? Real world examples are always going to be better.
And let me also second the suggestion for a tutor (as long as you get the right one), even if it is a friend or family member who she likes that you can get to do it for free. Like it or not, sometimes kids just don't want to listen to a parent, especially if you're both getting frustrated. As somebody who did a bit of tutoring on the side, my experience was that taking a kid from failing to passing is hard, but making a bright B/C+ student into a B+/A student is a ton easier. If she wants to do it (or at least just wants to get the grade), 7/8 of the battle is already done.
Good luck!
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:57 AM on February 10, 2012
And let me also second the suggestion for a tutor (as long as you get the right one), even if it is a friend or family member who she likes that you can get to do it for free. Like it or not, sometimes kids just don't want to listen to a parent, especially if you're both getting frustrated. As somebody who did a bit of tutoring on the side, my experience was that taking a kid from failing to passing is hard, but making a bright B/C+ student into a B+/A student is a ton easier. If she wants to do it (or at least just wants to get the grade), 7/8 of the battle is already done.
Good luck!
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:57 AM on February 10, 2012
"Ripeness is all."
When I was your daughter's age I couldn't reliably count to fifty, which was a spectacularly embarrassing way to begin the fourth grade. It wasn't that I didn't want to or wasn't interested, either. I just couldn't.
But that didn't keep me from getting a BA in math and being admitted to a PhD program in math.
When I started to kind of get the idea of what was going on with all that stuff, which wasn't until the sixth grade, I caught up with everyone else in a matter of weeks, and I've always wondered what conceivable good it could have done the other kids to spend all those hundreds of hours filling in work sheets and crying in frustration over things they may simply not have been quite ready to grasp.
For a child like your daughter, I would try to take the pressure off and give her a chance to find her own way, and that may be difficult or impossible in her present school.
posted by jamjam at 11:02 AM on February 10, 2012 [2 favorites]
When I was your daughter's age I couldn't reliably count to fifty, which was a spectacularly embarrassing way to begin the fourth grade. It wasn't that I didn't want to or wasn't interested, either. I just couldn't.
But that didn't keep me from getting a BA in math and being admitted to a PhD program in math.
When I started to kind of get the idea of what was going on with all that stuff, which wasn't until the sixth grade, I caught up with everyone else in a matter of weeks, and I've always wondered what conceivable good it could have done the other kids to spend all those hundreds of hours filling in work sheets and crying in frustration over things they may simply not have been quite ready to grasp.
For a child like your daughter, I would try to take the pressure off and give her a chance to find her own way, and that may be difficult or impossible in her present school.
posted by jamjam at 11:02 AM on February 10, 2012 [2 favorites]
I had the most success with my son and math by making it practical.
So, we'd be at the store and see something priced at 30 dollars for 40% off. So what's the price ? Well, 40% off is 60% on, which is 6/10. So 30 times 6 divided by 10 = 18.
We'd cook from a recipe - so, what is 3 times 3/4 cup? 3 times 3 divided by 4 is 2 1/4 cups.
That sort of thing.
Really, the only way to get good at something you aren't good at is to practice.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:02 AM on February 10, 2012
So, we'd be at the store and see something priced at 30 dollars for 40% off. So what's the price ? Well, 40% off is 60% on, which is 6/10. So 30 times 6 divided by 10 = 18.
We'd cook from a recipe - so, what is 3 times 3/4 cup? 3 times 3 divided by 4 is 2 1/4 cups.
That sort of thing.
Really, the only way to get good at something you aren't good at is to practice.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:02 AM on February 10, 2012
Kate Nonesuch is a very well respected literacy/numeracy researcher/instructor. Her Family Math Fun (free PDF) has lots of great activities parents can do with their kids to boost math skills through authentic activities. For example, she gives concrete examples of how to explore math through family activities like cooking, grocery shopping, going on nature walks, and playing card games.
The book has links to other good resources as well (e.g. websites, PDFs, books).
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:09 AM on February 10, 2012
The book has links to other good resources as well (e.g. websites, PDFs, books).
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:09 AM on February 10, 2012
a lot -- probably most -- 9 year olds don't like theory. In fact, a lot of people never do
I agree with the statement above. At that age, and for most people all their life, knowing how to solve a problem is sufficient. Theory, if it ever comes, will come later. Just think about long divisions: we all know how to do them but only one in fifty might know why we do each specific step that way and what it means. So practice, practice practice each step with your girl without getting too involved in explanations.
posted by francesca too at 11:39 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
I agree with the statement above. At that age, and for most people all their life, knowing how to solve a problem is sufficient. Theory, if it ever comes, will come later. Just think about long divisions: we all know how to do them but only one in fifty might know why we do each specific step that way and what it means. So practice, practice practice each step with your girl without getting too involved in explanations.
posted by francesca too at 11:39 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
I second bleep in getting a tutor. Not every parent is a good instructor, or is a good instructor in everything, or is a good instructor specifically designed to teach in the way that their kid learns. If you're both already frustrated, you've got a loooooong bunch of years to go in teaching her math when it's not working for either of you.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:44 AM on February 10, 2012
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:44 AM on February 10, 2012
Oh, and the other thing you can do is ask her to help you with anything that comes up that needs math that you think she might be able to figure out.
Don't frame it as 'let's sit down and practice math' as much as 'Can you help daddy figure something out?'
posted by empath at 11:48 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
Don't frame it as 'let's sit down and practice math' as much as 'Can you help daddy figure something out?'
posted by empath at 11:48 AM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
Grapes of Math!is a clever picture book of math puzzles that teaches how to think in a math way through games.
Play cards and games: Crib and Blockus come to mind. Personally, I'd avoid things that are really overtly math, but after she does well on one let her know subtly that it involves great math concepts.
Build games with
Scratch! Teaches logic and has variables to make characters interact in different ways depending on what key you push. (My son loved scratch).
Knitting and sewing--especially quilting-- are both great crafts full of math. If you have a crafter in your life. Quilting can involve developing patterns on a grid, and assembling them into different shapes, measuring for cutting and stitching. Knitting has lots of counting and calculating to get the right size and pattern.
If she is an art lover, investigating Leonardo Davinci's use of geometry in picture layout is good.
Bake cookies -- lots of practical math in that, use 2/4 tsp to make 1/2 tsp etc.
And dare I say Minecraft also uses concepts of pattern building on a grid. work together to build a replica of your house, or a favourite movie location/animal.
posted by chapps at 12:12 PM on February 10, 2012
Play cards and games: Crib and Blockus come to mind. Personally, I'd avoid things that are really overtly math, but after she does well on one let her know subtly that it involves great math concepts.
Build games with
Scratch! Teaches logic and has variables to make characters interact in different ways depending on what key you push. (My son loved scratch).
Knitting and sewing--especially quilting-- are both great crafts full of math. If you have a crafter in your life. Quilting can involve developing patterns on a grid, and assembling them into different shapes, measuring for cutting and stitching. Knitting has lots of counting and calculating to get the right size and pattern.
If she is an art lover, investigating Leonardo Davinci's use of geometry in picture layout is good.
Bake cookies -- lots of practical math in that, use 2/4 tsp to make 1/2 tsp etc.
And dare I say Minecraft also uses concepts of pattern building on a grid. work together to build a replica of your house, or a favourite movie location/animal.
posted by chapps at 12:12 PM on February 10, 2012
i nth getting a tutor. it helps to have it come from somewhere else, and it also helps that, if your daughter continues to have that math frustration, that she doesn't associate it with you, her parents.
i am much better at math now than i ever was in school. i was crap or bordering on crap in algebra I and II in high school. i had to withdraw from trig twice in college because i just wasn't getting it. geometry was where i really hit my stride, though - i've always had an affinity for spatial relations, angles, etc - but every other form of math was a special level of hell for me, i think mostly because it was so dry and boring. even stats, once i became an art major - i studied my ass off for a b. what helped for me is what a lot of other people are saying here - putting it in practical terms and trying to make it fun. if you go out to dinner, save your receipts and have her figure out tips (or have her help you at the restaurant, if she goes along). remember the cosby show object lesson where they tried to teach theo how much money supporting yourself cost? stuff like that.
also, what i call "chunking" - if something i want that is $20 regularly is 40% off, and i want to know how much that is, i do this: figuring out 10% is easy. 10% of $20 is $2, 4 times that is $8, which makes the thing $12. i guess maybe that's new math, but i was taught old school so i'm not sure. this is much easier to do in my head. but practical application really drove stuff home for me.
posted by koroshiya at 12:18 PM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
i am much better at math now than i ever was in school. i was crap or bordering on crap in algebra I and II in high school. i had to withdraw from trig twice in college because i just wasn't getting it. geometry was where i really hit my stride, though - i've always had an affinity for spatial relations, angles, etc - but every other form of math was a special level of hell for me, i think mostly because it was so dry and boring. even stats, once i became an art major - i studied my ass off for a b. what helped for me is what a lot of other people are saying here - putting it in practical terms and trying to make it fun. if you go out to dinner, save your receipts and have her figure out tips (or have her help you at the restaurant, if she goes along). remember the cosby show object lesson where they tried to teach theo how much money supporting yourself cost? stuff like that.
also, what i call "chunking" - if something i want that is $20 regularly is 40% off, and i want to know how much that is, i do this: figuring out 10% is easy. 10% of $20 is $2, 4 times that is $8, which makes the thing $12. i guess maybe that's new math, but i was taught old school so i'm not sure. this is much easier to do in my head. but practical application really drove stuff home for me.
posted by koroshiya at 12:18 PM on February 10, 2012 [1 favorite]
I, too, have the magic touch - though I love math, every time I try to "help" one of my children with their math they end up in tears. My wife has taken over the responsibility from me, and all is peaceful again. My theory is that since she is less mathematically inclined, she is better able to empathize with their difficulty. So I guess that means I'm n'thing that you might want to pass this job on to somebody else (spouse, tutor...).
I'll second Vi Hart's videos, and anything else you can do that helps ignite her interest in the subject.
Also, we've been using the Life of Fred books and they're a big hit.
posted by richyoung at 1:00 PM on February 10, 2012
I'll second Vi Hart's videos, and anything else you can do that helps ignite her interest in the subject.
Also, we've been using the Life of Fred books and they're a big hit.
posted by richyoung at 1:00 PM on February 10, 2012
What curriculum is your daughter's school using? I don't want to open up a can of worms*, but not every curriculum works well (for every student).
MEP Math is a great resource with free downloadable workbooks and lesson plans.
Youtube can be a surprisingly good place for math videos (prescreened by you of course).
The BBC, has some math resources for kids. Also PBS's Cyberchase.
There are also books, like Manga Math Mysteries that may appeal to your daughter.
*see "fuzzy math."
posted by oceano at 1:15 PM on February 10, 2012
MEP Math is a great resource with free downloadable workbooks and lesson plans.
Youtube can be a surprisingly good place for math videos (prescreened by you of course).
The BBC, has some math resources for kids. Also PBS's Cyberchase.
There are also books, like Manga Math Mysteries that may appeal to your daughter.
*see "fuzzy math."
posted by oceano at 1:15 PM on February 10, 2012
I'm astonished that I'm the first person in this thread to put it so bluntly, but it sure sounds to me like the problem here is you. You say that you look at your daughter in horror. You are stuttering, groping, miserable. You say that you feel frustrated (internally) as if she cannot perceive that (externally). Something horrible is bothering daddy, and she sure doesn't want to be anywhere near it.
Ignore your daughter completely. Go off and do something that involves division. Do you have a big jar of change somewhere? It's time to roll some coins. Do you have a kitchen cabinet full of dishes? It's time to stack them in some new way. Empath and chapps have some great suggestions but don't fool yourself that you can invite your daughter to help nonchalantly. Just enjoy what you are doing. Eventually your own immense satisfaction will make her want to imitate you.
posted by drdanger at 4:01 PM on February 10, 2012
Ignore your daughter completely. Go off and do something that involves division. Do you have a big jar of change somewhere? It's time to roll some coins. Do you have a kitchen cabinet full of dishes? It's time to stack them in some new way. Empath and chapps have some great suggestions but don't fool yourself that you can invite your daughter to help nonchalantly. Just enjoy what you are doing. Eventually your own immense satisfaction will make her want to imitate you.
posted by drdanger at 4:01 PM on February 10, 2012
A hint for division and multiplication is that until they get it on another level, some kids are really helped by the idea that it's repeated subtraction/ addition. Adults tend to do things really fast (like just being able to see four pennies and pull them out quickly) children need the time to count out the three sets of four each time themselves. Then go back and count by threes.
Note: I am now a ninth grade math tutor and often see high schoolers who don't understand fractions/ basic math. I'm used to doing the lower levels stuff. Sometimes it's really important to start with the things they know how to do (like repeated addition- don't let them realize they're multiplying yet!) before moving on so that they have the confidence.
In addition I HATED learning the times tables. I thought they were stupid and useless and used to get into huge fights with my parents. One day my older brother (8 years older) explained they actually were really important to know. Then I sat down and learned them. She might just need to hear things from someone else.
posted by raccoon409 at 6:26 PM on February 10, 2012
Note: I am now a ninth grade math tutor and often see high schoolers who don't understand fractions/ basic math. I'm used to doing the lower levels stuff. Sometimes it's really important to start with the things they know how to do (like repeated addition- don't let them realize they're multiplying yet!) before moving on so that they have the confidence.
In addition I HATED learning the times tables. I thought they were stupid and useless and used to get into huge fights with my parents. One day my older brother (8 years older) explained they actually were really important to know. Then I sat down and learned them. She might just need to hear things from someone else.
posted by raccoon409 at 6:26 PM on February 10, 2012
I took Teaching Math Through Storytelling in grad school (and it was awesome) and the one that I remember being recommended for division is 'The Doorbell Rang.' There are a lot of great books at various levels that go through a lot of math concepts in a storytelling fashion and doing it that way might make it more fun for both of you.
Other links to books like that:
Picture books for teaching division
If this concept appeals to you, feel free to memail. I still have the textbooks and lists from the course which gives me a lot of books to recommend that cover various math topics.
posted by eleanna at 8:51 PM on February 10, 2012
Other links to books like that:
Picture books for teaching division
If this concept appeals to you, feel free to memail. I still have the textbooks and lists from the course which gives me a lot of books to recommend that cover various math topics.
posted by eleanna at 8:51 PM on February 10, 2012
Response by poster: Everyone -- there is so much good stuff here, I'm going to have to look at each item very carefully. This is going to take a little time, especially since I have to work this weekend. But I promise I am going to check out every idea! Thank you all so much.
posted by Alaska Jack at 9:39 PM on February 10, 2012
posted by Alaska Jack at 9:39 PM on February 10, 2012
Math 3 Under the Sea is a great website for 3rd grade math.
posted by Kazimirovna at 10:03 AM on February 11, 2012
posted by Kazimirovna at 10:03 AM on February 11, 2012
If you can afford it, hire a tutor. At third grade level this doesn't have to be expensive: there may very well be a kid a grade or two ahead who would love to tutor someone.
I couldn't have and didn't learn anything from my parents. The best thing my mother ever did for me was to hire a tutor for me for eighth grade math. It was the only thing that got me to pass math.
If you can't afford a tutor, google youtube videos for the kinds of problems she's needing to solve. That seriously helped me for some precalc problems when the community college math lab couldn't explain things to me.
The other thing is to make it fun and "project-based" rather than problem-based. A small allowance, and learning to manage that is a good example of type of project. It would be up to you to find out ways to refine that into smaller tasks.
On reading comments upthread it sounds like I'm just repeating advice, but I think it's advice worth repeating.
posted by thelastcamel at 3:31 PM on February 12, 2012
I couldn't have and didn't learn anything from my parents. The best thing my mother ever did for me was to hire a tutor for me for eighth grade math. It was the only thing that got me to pass math.
If you can't afford a tutor, google youtube videos for the kinds of problems she's needing to solve. That seriously helped me for some precalc problems when the community college math lab couldn't explain things to me.
The other thing is to make it fun and "project-based" rather than problem-based. A small allowance, and learning to manage that is a good example of type of project. It would be up to you to find out ways to refine that into smaller tasks.
On reading comments upthread it sounds like I'm just repeating advice, but I think it's advice worth repeating.
posted by thelastcamel at 3:31 PM on February 12, 2012
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Question: What is 2/10
Have a single pile of ten pennies. Pull two pennies out, putting each pair into different groups until there is no more pennies in the pile.
Count the groups of two pennies.
posted by royalsong at 9:43 AM on February 10, 2012