How can I get over this breach of trust?
December 21, 2011 2:44 PM Subscribe
How to get over a serious breach of trust that is not infidelity?
Husband, against my express wishes, went into a large amount of debt to purchase something that he wanted to purchase. We've been married for over ten years and have a child. He's a wonderful person, kind and gentle and loving. Has a great sense of humor and is a fantastic father. However, we have always been at odds over money and how we spend it.
I've had three years of under-employment and during this time, we had a baby. He is very employable (yay!) and has continued to rise in his career. However, he is a spender and a worry-about-it-later person and I am a worrier and a penny-pincher.
In the last few months we've slid into credit card debt and my employment has been light. I wanted to wait to make this big purchase and apparently he didn't. So, despite me asking to wait until after the new year (and after all the holiday spending and travel was accounted for) he decided to just go for it. Buy the thing and go into debt and not tell me.
This is not the first time this has happened. We will be going into counseling after the holidays but how can I get over this incredible breach of trust? We had discussions and he agreed to wait on this purchase. I just feel that he has no respect for me and it's made me question all kinds of things. You can't act one way and then talk a good game the other. Anyone been through something like this? It almost feels like he cheated on me but then at least my feelings would have some clarity. It's been a major gut-punch. How do I get over this? How can I trust him again? Should we separate our finances?
Husband, against my express wishes, went into a large amount of debt to purchase something that he wanted to purchase. We've been married for over ten years and have a child. He's a wonderful person, kind and gentle and loving. Has a great sense of humor and is a fantastic father. However, we have always been at odds over money and how we spend it.
I've had three years of under-employment and during this time, we had a baby. He is very employable (yay!) and has continued to rise in his career. However, he is a spender and a worry-about-it-later person and I am a worrier and a penny-pincher.
In the last few months we've slid into credit card debt and my employment has been light. I wanted to wait to make this big purchase and apparently he didn't. So, despite me asking to wait until after the new year (and after all the holiday spending and travel was accounted for) he decided to just go for it. Buy the thing and go into debt and not tell me.
This is not the first time this has happened. We will be going into counseling after the holidays but how can I get over this incredible breach of trust? We had discussions and he agreed to wait on this purchase. I just feel that he has no respect for me and it's made me question all kinds of things. You can't act one way and then talk a good game the other. Anyone been through something like this? It almost feels like he cheated on me but then at least my feelings would have some clarity. It's been a major gut-punch. How do I get over this? How can I trust him again? Should we separate our finances?
"Credit card debt" meaning "we normally pay it off every month, but now we need another month or two to get to zero" or "holy crap, we need to burn the furniture for warmth now"? There's a difference between "we really can't afford this" and "I just don't want to spend that amount of money."
What did he say when you asked him why he bought it now? Did he get a deal? Is it going to be unavailable soon and he had to move quickly? What you see as a breach of trust he may see as wisely reacting to changing conditions, or heck, he may have just changed his mind, not realizing that he made an Unbreakable Promise.
posted by sageleaf at 3:02 PM on December 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
What did he say when you asked him why he bought it now? Did he get a deal? Is it going to be unavailable soon and he had to move quickly? What you see as a breach of trust he may see as wisely reacting to changing conditions, or heck, he may have just changed his mind, not realizing that he made an Unbreakable Promise.
posted by sageleaf at 3:02 PM on December 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
I've been in the same boat before, when I once bought an expensive TV when my blog about TiVos started to first make money. It was probably our biggest purchase to date and even though my wife knew I was buying it, we literally stayed up all night arguing about it and lost sleep over the feeling of "can we really afford this?!" for about a week afterwards.
Your husband sounds exactly like me, and you sound a lot like my wife when it comes to spending habits. It took us nearly five years to finally integrate our finances together into a single shared bank account and I think that totally helped curb my spending and really think twice before making any large purchases (knowing she would see it, etc), so I would strongly suggest you don't separate your finances.
It does suck that you guys talked about it this purchase and he still went ahead on it, that's a serious breach of trust and something that should be worked out in counseling (he has profusely apologized for it, right?), and I think I would focus on that specifically and not let your mind run rampant or compare it to cheating on you, etc. He got trigger happy on a big buy that you guys agreed to wait on, and that's a serious offense. I hope he understands the consequences of that ill-timed decision, not just your trust and possible effects on the relationship, but it may put your finances in stress for several months, if something unexpected came up you guys might be in a pinch (soon after my big TV purchase, I had a huge tax bill due that ended up being the last time in my life that I had to borrow money from my parents and the shame I felt at doing that at age 30 lead me to plan out my finances better so I never had to do that ever again).
posted by mathowie at 3:06 PM on December 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
Your husband sounds exactly like me, and you sound a lot like my wife when it comes to spending habits. It took us nearly five years to finally integrate our finances together into a single shared bank account and I think that totally helped curb my spending and really think twice before making any large purchases (knowing she would see it, etc), so I would strongly suggest you don't separate your finances.
It does suck that you guys talked about it this purchase and he still went ahead on it, that's a serious breach of trust and something that should be worked out in counseling (he has profusely apologized for it, right?), and I think I would focus on that specifically and not let your mind run rampant or compare it to cheating on you, etc. He got trigger happy on a big buy that you guys agreed to wait on, and that's a serious offense. I hope he understands the consequences of that ill-timed decision, not just your trust and possible effects on the relationship, but it may put your finances in stress for several months, if something unexpected came up you guys might be in a pinch (soon after my big TV purchase, I had a huge tax bill due that ended up being the last time in my life that I had to borrow money from my parents and the shame I felt at doing that at age 30 lead me to plan out my finances better so I never had to do that ever again).
posted by mathowie at 3:06 PM on December 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
Whoa, that is a huge breach of trust, and it doesn't even matter if you could afford it or not. You agreed to wait on this purchase, he went and did it behind your back, and then didn't even tell you. That would be a major problem in my family. My partner and I don't spend more than $30 or $40 without each other's input; going into debt would be a dealbreaker.
I would explain to him how huge of a breach of trust this is, and I would start proceedings immediately to separate your bank accounts/ credit cards. This will mean coming to an agreement based on your current income (if he makes 70% of your combined income, he pays 70% of the bills, etc), and there are other AskMes on how to have separate accounts while married that you could check out. You don't want your name associated with credit cards that he can get you both into trouble with.
posted by arcticwoman at 3:09 PM on December 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
I would explain to him how huge of a breach of trust this is, and I would start proceedings immediately to separate your bank accounts/ credit cards. This will mean coming to an agreement based on your current income (if he makes 70% of your combined income, he pays 70% of the bills, etc), and there are other AskMes on how to have separate accounts while married that you could check out. You don't want your name associated with credit cards that he can get you both into trouble with.
posted by arcticwoman at 3:09 PM on December 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
This incident sounds like a phase in an ongoing power struggle between you and your husband, and yes, money-managing-style mismatches are a huge, huge deal. If this is not the first time this has happened, you have every right to be angry. Of course you and your husband should be on the same page about everything that's done with shared finances. That's what being on a team is about.
Could you tell us more about what debt means to you? Does it mean credit card debt, or did he pay with cash? Are you currently indigent right now? What was the item? Was it a pleasure purchase or something practical? What testimony does your husband give as to his reasoning for just going ahead with the purchase? How difficult would it be for you to extricate your finances from his? Do you have a lawyer or a financial adviser who could guide you in separating your finances?
I would sit down and have a serious talk with your husband. If it were me, I would say something to the effect of, "Husband, I love you very much, and I am so glad to be your partner in life as well as in the raising of our child. I am very, very sad about what happened recently, and want to talk to you about it honestly. I thought that we had agreed not to make that purchase until after the new year because we mutually agreed it was what's best for our finances. I was so surprised to see that you went ahead with the purchase anyway, and I feel like my trust in you has been very violated. It hurt me a lot to know that you would disregard a mutually agreed upon decision in order to make such a big purchase. I am now worried not only about our finances, but also about how I can trust you in the future. We are a team, and it bothers me that we have not been acting like one. I need to feel secure that we can talk about this and come to a solution that honors my need for security and trust, your need to have this item, and our family's need for financial stability. Will you help me work towards that? I am willing to discuss it with you now, or with the assistance of a counselor."
Then I would talk to him about how you feel that it might be best to separate your finances for the time being. You are right to be looking out for yourself. I hope you and your husband figure things out.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 3:12 PM on December 21, 2011
Could you tell us more about what debt means to you? Does it mean credit card debt, or did he pay with cash? Are you currently indigent right now? What was the item? Was it a pleasure purchase or something practical? What testimony does your husband give as to his reasoning for just going ahead with the purchase? How difficult would it be for you to extricate your finances from his? Do you have a lawyer or a financial adviser who could guide you in separating your finances?
I would sit down and have a serious talk with your husband. If it were me, I would say something to the effect of, "Husband, I love you very much, and I am so glad to be your partner in life as well as in the raising of our child. I am very, very sad about what happened recently, and want to talk to you about it honestly. I thought that we had agreed not to make that purchase until after the new year because we mutually agreed it was what's best for our finances. I was so surprised to see that you went ahead with the purchase anyway, and I feel like my trust in you has been very violated. It hurt me a lot to know that you would disregard a mutually agreed upon decision in order to make such a big purchase. I am now worried not only about our finances, but also about how I can trust you in the future. We are a team, and it bothers me that we have not been acting like one. I need to feel secure that we can talk about this and come to a solution that honors my need for security and trust, your need to have this item, and our family's need for financial stability. Will you help me work towards that? I am willing to discuss it with you now, or with the assistance of a counselor."
Then I would talk to him about how you feel that it might be best to separate your finances for the time being. You are right to be looking out for yourself. I hope you and your husband figure things out.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 3:12 PM on December 21, 2011
"So, despite me asking to wait until after the new year (and after all the holiday spending and travel was accounted for) he decided to just go for it. Buy the thing and go into debt and not tell me."
It's not clear from what you say here - did he actually agree to wait until after the new year for the purchase? Or did you just ask him to and he went ahead and did what he wanted without making it clear that he was not going to comply with your request? Either way indicates a problem that should probably be talked out, but only the first represents an actual breach of his word.
posted by tdismukes at 3:16 PM on December 21, 2011
It's not clear from what you say here - did he actually agree to wait until after the new year for the purchase? Or did you just ask him to and he went ahead and did what he wanted without making it clear that he was not going to comply with your request? Either way indicates a problem that should probably be talked out, but only the first represents an actual breach of his word.
posted by tdismukes at 3:16 PM on December 21, 2011
Tough situation. My wife and I have an agreement that if we're going to make a purchase that's more expensive then $100 we have to talk about it and both agree to it. Below that and we're both free to do what we'd like as long as we're not spending $100 5 times a day. It sounds like you're husband is a good man who just can't seem to show restraint when it comes to spending money. I think counseling is something that could really help a situation like this. You guys need to figure out whether your husband just has a problem spending money he knows he shouldn't spend, or whether he's spending it because he feels he brings home more money and therefor can spend it any way he wants. Neither is a good thing, but both ideas need to be examined and dealt with accordingly. Of course, the biggest problem is exactly what your whole concern is...trust. You both had agreed to wait for the purchase and he did the complete opposite. Plain and simple. As I'm sure you've heard before, money is always one of the biggest problems in a marriage. I would recommend dealing with this ASAP so that it doesn't lead to the end of your relationship. Although, it doesn't sound like you're headed towards divorce...it just sounds like your husband needs to learn discipline.
posted by ljs30 at 3:17 PM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by ljs30 at 3:17 PM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Never mind - I just saw the follow-up where you state that he had agreed to wait on the purchase.
posted by tdismukes at 3:17 PM on December 21, 2011
posted by tdismukes at 3:17 PM on December 21, 2011
I think this is more of a "he said, she said" situation where your husband probably has a different perspective on your discussion and agreement. So a counsellor would be a better source of unbiased advice for this specific situation. Your two positions are very diametrically opposed (with you obviously feeling yours has moral superiority). Unless his recent purchase now means you will be homeless and hungry this week I think you are using this event as a proxy for your larger issues around money/values in your relationship. Viewing this as event on par with infidelity is escalating your feelings and may make you more entrenched and defensive by the time you get to the counsellor. Accept that your living partner of a decade, father of your child, made a decision you would not have made but you will work out a solution together. Meanwhile, since money is concerning you so much look into increasing your own income. Hopefully more control and contribution in your finances will assauge some of your worry.
posted by saucysault at 3:43 PM on December 21, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 3:43 PM on December 21, 2011 [9 favorites]
Is it possible this was supposed to be a Christmas surprise, and that's why he didn't tell you and that's why he said he was holding off?
posted by sageleaf at 4:24 PM on December 21, 2011
posted by sageleaf at 4:24 PM on December 21, 2011
How do I get over this? How can I trust him again?
Is it a breach of trust? Or is it a breach of priorities? Or is it a turf battle or control thing or....?
We don't know the ins and outs of your relationship and I'm inclined to say the smart thing you do here is try to table your feelings of resentment over this and make it something you determine how to cope with in counseling.
In the short term I think you cope with this by acknowledging that this isn't a transgression that has done lasting harm outside of each other's feelings. Meaning, you're not going to go hungry or get evicted over this, right? My read of what you describe is that you didn't want to be in debt over this, not that you doubt your ability to pay for it eventually or that you have a problem with the tradeoffs necessary to accommodate this purchase.
Which isn't to denigrate your position; I hate owing money, I think interest is a punishment people take on for being unwilling to defer gratification and that most people don't acknowledge that they're making a decision to pay an extra X% on top of the purchase price if they'd just paid cash.
But this is about disagreeing on priorities about such things, right? Is it possible that your husband is nurturing some annoyance over being asked to honor your priorities regarding finances when he's the one who's bringing in the larger portion of the cash? Maybe from his perspective he's been pulling a heavier load for three years now and isn't feeling like you're letting him pick some tradeoffs. Perhaps you made decisions about your workload regarding your new child and he's jealous that you're doing this rewarding child rearing work and he's just doing what he needs for a paycheck.
None of which makes it okay or not okay, but you're torqued about his failing to honor your feelings about this expenditure and he may have similarly passionate feelings about expenditures and finances he's been carrying around. And I think that's how you get over this - you open yourself up to the fact that maybe he's got things driving this that he's just as earnest about as you.
You find yourself stewing now in the aftermath and don't know how to deal with it. Perhaps he found himself driven by equally passionate feelings and made this purchase because he didn't know how to cope with them more intelligently. Just remind yourself that this was a difference in priorities and it didn't endanger your well-being. He's committed enough to your mutual happiness to go seek counseling in the new year & find better ways to work these things out.
posted by phearlez at 4:36 PM on December 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Is it a breach of trust? Or is it a breach of priorities? Or is it a turf battle or control thing or....?
We don't know the ins and outs of your relationship and I'm inclined to say the smart thing you do here is try to table your feelings of resentment over this and make it something you determine how to cope with in counseling.
In the short term I think you cope with this by acknowledging that this isn't a transgression that has done lasting harm outside of each other's feelings. Meaning, you're not going to go hungry or get evicted over this, right? My read of what you describe is that you didn't want to be in debt over this, not that you doubt your ability to pay for it eventually or that you have a problem with the tradeoffs necessary to accommodate this purchase.
Which isn't to denigrate your position; I hate owing money, I think interest is a punishment people take on for being unwilling to defer gratification and that most people don't acknowledge that they're making a decision to pay an extra X% on top of the purchase price if they'd just paid cash.
But this is about disagreeing on priorities about such things, right? Is it possible that your husband is nurturing some annoyance over being asked to honor your priorities regarding finances when he's the one who's bringing in the larger portion of the cash? Maybe from his perspective he's been pulling a heavier load for three years now and isn't feeling like you're letting him pick some tradeoffs. Perhaps you made decisions about your workload regarding your new child and he's jealous that you're doing this rewarding child rearing work and he's just doing what he needs for a paycheck.
None of which makes it okay or not okay, but you're torqued about his failing to honor your feelings about this expenditure and he may have similarly passionate feelings about expenditures and finances he's been carrying around. And I think that's how you get over this - you open yourself up to the fact that maybe he's got things driving this that he's just as earnest about as you.
You find yourself stewing now in the aftermath and don't know how to deal with it. Perhaps he found himself driven by equally passionate feelings and made this purchase because he didn't know how to cope with them more intelligently. Just remind yourself that this was a difference in priorities and it didn't endanger your well-being. He's committed enough to your mutual happiness to go seek counseling in the new year & find better ways to work these things out.
posted by phearlez at 4:36 PM on December 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Is the item he bought not returnable? Is he willing to return it?
posted by IndigoRain at 5:50 PM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by IndigoRain at 5:50 PM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Does he feel resentment about the fact that he is, in your words, very employable with a high income and that you've been having difficulty making money? In his mind, he might be thinking "I contribute 95% of the family income, I really want to get X, why shouldn't I?"
Clearly it should be a mutual decision (or discussed openly) but I wonder if that is a contributing factor.
posted by arnicae at 6:31 PM on December 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Clearly it should be a mutual decision (or discussed openly) but I wonder if that is a contributing factor.
posted by arnicae at 6:31 PM on December 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
While I think you have the right to complain and insistence he change his behaviour, saying this is a breach of trust is a bit of an overreaction, as it doesn't really help solve the situation - these are fighting words that could spell the end of your relationship. Besides, now your husband has to atone for both spending money without your approval, and breaching trust. Choose one or the other.
If you're really interested in changing his future behaviour, just focus on the money. Try to explain to him that a) you thought you had agreed he would wait until the new year and b) you want to set up some tracking of household expenses, plus some budgeting.
I think what bugs a lot of spouses (like me) about the "wait until later" and budgeting approach, is that we feel we're totally losing control over household finances - we're never going to get that snowblower we wanted.
So, why not create a list of desired purchases, and prioritize them according to your income.
This will go a long way towards changing behaviour. I think it's okay to say you were confused or whatever, but move on. If he does it again, then you have established a pattern. I don't know where you would go from there.
posted by KokuRyu at 6:44 PM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you're really interested in changing his future behaviour, just focus on the money. Try to explain to him that a) you thought you had agreed he would wait until the new year and b) you want to set up some tracking of household expenses, plus some budgeting.
I think what bugs a lot of spouses (like me) about the "wait until later" and budgeting approach, is that we feel we're totally losing control over household finances - we're never going to get that snowblower we wanted.
So, why not create a list of desired purchases, and prioritize them according to your income.
This will go a long way towards changing behaviour. I think it's okay to say you were confused or whatever, but move on. If he does it again, then you have established a pattern. I don't know where you would go from there.
posted by KokuRyu at 6:44 PM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
It may be helpful to separate money from the broken promise.
Your aren't really arguing about money or a purchase. You're upset because he told you one thing and did another. His behavior says owning that item was more important than keeping the promise he made to you.
You're sliding into credit card debt and he's unable/unwilling to control his purchases. These are topics to address in counseling.
posted by 26.2 at 7:19 PM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Your aren't really arguing about money or a purchase. You're upset because he told you one thing and did another. His behavior says owning that item was more important than keeping the promise he made to you.
You're sliding into credit card debt and he's unable/unwilling to control his purchases. These are topics to address in counseling.
posted by 26.2 at 7:19 PM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
The only way I can think of getting past this is to just accept that this happened, and that it can't be undone (it can't be undone, right?).
posted by anniecat at 7:23 PM on December 21, 2011
posted by anniecat at 7:23 PM on December 21, 2011
I would separate my finances from my husband's in this case
Two things. One, separating your finances on paper may not separate them legally; you may still be jointly encumbered with any debt he accumulates because you are married. And in fact, if your spouse has a genuine spending problem, lack of oversight may lead to more spending. Two, I don't think this really solves the problem while setting up a low/high earner dynamic that might make things worse if your marriage is stressed.
Two, if you have not sat down and made a household budget that deals with all of your credit card debt as well as all the standard expenses, you need to.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:39 PM on December 21, 2011
Two things. One, separating your finances on paper may not separate them legally; you may still be jointly encumbered with any debt he accumulates because you are married. And in fact, if your spouse has a genuine spending problem, lack of oversight may lead to more spending. Two, I don't think this really solves the problem while setting up a low/high earner dynamic that might make things worse if your marriage is stressed.
Two, if you have not sat down and made a household budget that deals with all of your credit card debt as well as all the standard expenses, you need to.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:39 PM on December 21, 2011
If you have different approaches to managing your money, you should have separate bank accounts. Once you've agreed on a mechanism to cover ongoing household running costs and shared long-term savings aims (which might involve a regular transfer of funds from each of your own accounts to a third household account, or could be as simple as a regular transfer from the higher-income account to the other) then you can each handle your own stuff in whatever style you find most comfortable.
His debt should not be your problem.
posted by flabdablet at 7:41 PM on December 21, 2011
His debt should not be your problem.
posted by flabdablet at 7:41 PM on December 21, 2011
My husband and I have very different approaches to money, too, and it has caused some contention in the past. We actually decided to take a personal finance course together, and came up with priorities and a budget we could both live with. It required both of us to compromise, and we had to make several adjustments to get to a comfortable place. One very important part of the budget, once the needs and wants are all laid out and planned for, is that each of us gets an equal amount of discretionary money per month, which we can spend on anything we like.
Here's the thing about having a budget: you don't have to wait to see how things are going, because things are already accounted for. You know what you can afford and when. Anxiety and uncertainty go way, WAY down. It's not exactly fun, but the work is worth your own peace of mind and peace in your relationship.
My advice would be to work through this in counseling, and sit down and make a plan for your money that you are both comfortable with. There are lots of threads on the green about budgeting, if you need help.
posted by moira at 8:03 PM on December 21, 2011
Here's the thing about having a budget: you don't have to wait to see how things are going, because things are already accounted for. You know what you can afford and when. Anxiety and uncertainty go way, WAY down. It's not exactly fun, but the work is worth your own peace of mind and peace in your relationship.
My advice would be to work through this in counseling, and sit down and make a plan for your money that you are both comfortable with. There are lots of threads on the green about budgeting, if you need help.
posted by moira at 8:03 PM on December 21, 2011
My spouse and I have a similar dynamic, and have had a similar issue. In our relationship, however, the high earner is the saver/planner.
Typically in our house, the stay-at-home-with-children partner has a list of spending goals to achieve, including things like house renovations, new cars and other capital costs, plus the day-to-day of birthday presents, new clothes etc.
The cash-worker prepares the budgets, discusses priorities and sets a schedule for when these things can be expected to be paid for.
On one occasion, the cash-worker saw an item that was on sale, was expensive, yet within the amount of a recent bonus payment.
Some discussion was had, concluding with the home worker saying I really don't want you spending this money.
The cash worker selfishly went ahead with the purchase, allegedly with the argument the deal had become better, 'a once off'.
This resulted in a few things:
- the home-worker was very angry, feeling that the agreement not to purchase had been violated.
- the cash worker was angry and expressed the idea that while ideas had been shared, no such definitive agreement had been made.
- everyone got more angry.
- the cash worker felt they had little incentive to work hard etc. if when a spending choice they wanted to make could be denied.
- the home worker felt angry that their priority purchases would be delayed.
- the home worker brings this incident up as an example of powerlessness
- the cash worker brings this up as an example of how they get little input into spending goals.
The net result was the item in question was subsequently sold for about what it cost.
Lessons I took out of this? We now have a budget that includes a substantial amount of discretionary cash each month. Spending above the limit comes off next month's allowance, but should we under-spend the saving accumulates.
Our budget includes savings for joint expenses such as home renovations, but these accrue at a predictable rate, so there is no uncertainty when these are scheduled.
Everybody hates being on a budget, but it is pretty satisfying when you buy that coat you have saved for three months to afford and nobody can question your choice as extravagant etc. because you choose how to spend your discretionary income.
I hope you can pause a moment and think about these wider ideas and consider whether this incident is one to jeopardise a relationship, or just one that needs a bit of planning/ground rules to prevent recurring.
TL:DR I think you both have to discuss how to fairly divide income/expenses/desires and while irresponsible spending sucks, making it an issue of trust violation is relationship poison.
posted by bystander at 2:30 AM on December 22, 2011
Typically in our house, the stay-at-home-with-children partner has a list of spending goals to achieve, including things like house renovations, new cars and other capital costs, plus the day-to-day of birthday presents, new clothes etc.
The cash-worker prepares the budgets, discusses priorities and sets a schedule for when these things can be expected to be paid for.
On one occasion, the cash-worker saw an item that was on sale, was expensive, yet within the amount of a recent bonus payment.
Some discussion was had, concluding with the home worker saying I really don't want you spending this money.
The cash worker selfishly went ahead with the purchase, allegedly with the argument the deal had become better, 'a once off'.
This resulted in a few things:
- the home-worker was very angry, feeling that the agreement not to purchase had been violated.
- the cash worker was angry and expressed the idea that while ideas had been shared, no such definitive agreement had been made.
- everyone got more angry.
- the cash worker felt they had little incentive to work hard etc. if when a spending choice they wanted to make could be denied.
- the home worker felt angry that their priority purchases would be delayed.
- the home worker brings this incident up as an example of powerlessness
- the cash worker brings this up as an example of how they get little input into spending goals.
The net result was the item in question was subsequently sold for about what it cost.
Lessons I took out of this? We now have a budget that includes a substantial amount of discretionary cash each month. Spending above the limit comes off next month's allowance, but should we under-spend the saving accumulates.
Our budget includes savings for joint expenses such as home renovations, but these accrue at a predictable rate, so there is no uncertainty when these are scheduled.
Everybody hates being on a budget, but it is pretty satisfying when you buy that coat you have saved for three months to afford and nobody can question your choice as extravagant etc. because you choose how to spend your discretionary income.
I hope you can pause a moment and think about these wider ideas and consider whether this incident is one to jeopardise a relationship, or just one that needs a bit of planning/ground rules to prevent recurring.
TL:DR I think you both have to discuss how to fairly divide income/expenses/desires and while irresponsible spending sucks, making it an issue of trust violation is relationship poison.
posted by bystander at 2:30 AM on December 22, 2011
This seems like it's part of a more general dynamic I've noticed in serious relationships, which is that, by default, the partner with the more restrictive (for lack of a better word) attitude towards a particular issue gets to set the couple's agenda where that issue is concerned, which frustrates both parties. So, the neater partner gets to decide how clean the house should be, and is always nagging at the other to clean (or cleaning all the time and feeling resentful). Or the partner with the lower libido decides how often sex happens, which leaves one partner feeling frustrated and the other put-upon. Or, in your case, the partner who is more careful with money is de facto setting the household budget. This dynamic is lurking behind like 60% of relationship AskMes.
So, what's going on here is that your husband is chafing at the restrictions put upon him by your attitude toward money. Let me be clear here: your attitude toward money may be perfectly reasonable. Obviously, avoiding debt is a good thing. But right now, he probably feels like he's being made to live entirely within your rules, that what he thinks about money and spending doesn't matter. This is probably especially frustrating to him because he's making most of the money.
Now, if I knew how to solve this dynamic quickly and easily, I wouldn't be posting it here - I'd be out making millions as the best couple's therapist ever. But here's what I would suggest. Sit down with your husband and come up with a plan for your money that you are both genuinely happy with. This is going to be hard. He's going to have to agree to spend less than he wants to, which sounds like it has been the case for a while. But you're going to have to agree to let him spend a little more than you're comfortable with. The idea is that you come up with a budget that tries to respect both of your positions, not one that only respects yours, but that he agrees to (since, as you've seen, that kind of agreement only goes so far). This way, he feels like this is something you came to together, and that he's not just living by your standards. That will make him more likely to stick to the plan.
Finally, I agree with other people that it's very unhelpful for you to view this as a breach of trust. Instead, try to think of it this way: you haven't adequately hashed this out as couple yet, and this is an opportunity to do so.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:14 AM on December 22, 2011 [10 favorites]
So, what's going on here is that your husband is chafing at the restrictions put upon him by your attitude toward money. Let me be clear here: your attitude toward money may be perfectly reasonable. Obviously, avoiding debt is a good thing. But right now, he probably feels like he's being made to live entirely within your rules, that what he thinks about money and spending doesn't matter. This is probably especially frustrating to him because he's making most of the money.
Now, if I knew how to solve this dynamic quickly and easily, I wouldn't be posting it here - I'd be out making millions as the best couple's therapist ever. But here's what I would suggest. Sit down with your husband and come up with a plan for your money that you are both genuinely happy with. This is going to be hard. He's going to have to agree to spend less than he wants to, which sounds like it has been the case for a while. But you're going to have to agree to let him spend a little more than you're comfortable with. The idea is that you come up with a budget that tries to respect both of your positions, not one that only respects yours, but that he agrees to (since, as you've seen, that kind of agreement only goes so far). This way, he feels like this is something you came to together, and that he's not just living by your standards. That will make him more likely to stick to the plan.
Finally, I agree with other people that it's very unhelpful for you to view this as a breach of trust. Instead, try to think of it this way: you haven't adequately hashed this out as couple yet, and this is an opportunity to do so.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:14 AM on December 22, 2011 [10 favorites]
I am a little surprised by the responses here questioning your assessment that this was a breach of trust. He made an express agreement and breached that agreement. You trusted that he would honor his agreement. He did not. So I think it completely reasonable that you would feel disrespected and "question a lot of things".
I agree with the others that your respective attitudes about money are well worth exploring. But the subject matter of the breached agreement is largely irrelevant IMO. Married couples make countless agreements, large and small, from how to raise your kids to who is going to take the trash out. You have to be able to rely on these agreements being honored to feel secure.
I think your husband's greatest fault here was making an agreement in the first place that he was not going to honor. He should have negotiated something that was acceptable to you both and lived with it. For example, you all could have compromised to save up for half the purchase and put the rest on credit card...or something you both could have lived with. Neither party should unilaterally nix the other's ideas entirely and expect them to feel like an equal partner---you will both have to compromise. Perhaps you need to work on making sure you don't make all or nothing offers...I can't tell from your post if you allowed any wiggle room in the negotiations or if you were stubborn about getting your way completely. Just something to think about moving forward.
My husband and I make these compromises all of the time. Say I want him to do something in one month's time and he wants 6 months. Depending on the circumstances, we will end up somewhere in the middle. Maybe that is something you can both work on together so that the agreements that do get made are respectful to both parties' positions and therefore, more likely to be honored.
posted by murrey at 9:39 AM on December 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
I agree with the others that your respective attitudes about money are well worth exploring. But the subject matter of the breached agreement is largely irrelevant IMO. Married couples make countless agreements, large and small, from how to raise your kids to who is going to take the trash out. You have to be able to rely on these agreements being honored to feel secure.
I think your husband's greatest fault here was making an agreement in the first place that he was not going to honor. He should have negotiated something that was acceptable to you both and lived with it. For example, you all could have compromised to save up for half the purchase and put the rest on credit card...or something you both could have lived with. Neither party should unilaterally nix the other's ideas entirely and expect them to feel like an equal partner---you will both have to compromise. Perhaps you need to work on making sure you don't make all or nothing offers...I can't tell from your post if you allowed any wiggle room in the negotiations or if you were stubborn about getting your way completely. Just something to think about moving forward.
My husband and I make these compromises all of the time. Say I want him to do something in one month's time and he wants 6 months. Depending on the circumstances, we will end up somewhere in the middle. Maybe that is something you can both work on together so that the agreements that do get made are respectful to both parties' positions and therefore, more likely to be honored.
posted by murrey at 9:39 AM on December 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you two don't already have separate "allowance" accounts, you need them.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:44 AM on December 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by small_ruminant at 9:44 AM on December 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I get why you're comparing this to infidelity. Because you feel like you were cheated, right? You thought (or thought you had) an agreement on something, and he went out and did it anyway and there are consequences: debt. And debt itself has consequences that shouldn't be glossed over, which is what it sounds like he's doing.
It's great you'll be getting counselling. Figure out a budget (there are some good comments here on how to do that), and figure out what to do about this purchase as well (i.e. sell, or keep and figure out a way to pay off and implications for the rest of the household purchases/financial future). If you're in Canada, try watching a few episodes of Til Debt Do Us Part. Not sure if it's available outside Canada, though.
I also read Spousonomics a few months ago, and my memory is fuzzy, but your situation reminds me of a story that was in the book. A husband bought a $6000 Vespa and his wife was angry about it. The authors talked about how she chose to forgive him and that actually made him realize how serious his purchase was and felt remorseful about it. Obviously the story had more to it, so I would encourage you to read the book yourself and not rely on my fuzzy memory.
posted by foxjacket at 12:32 PM on December 22, 2011
It's great you'll be getting counselling. Figure out a budget (there are some good comments here on how to do that), and figure out what to do about this purchase as well (i.e. sell, or keep and figure out a way to pay off and implications for the rest of the household purchases/financial future). If you're in Canada, try watching a few episodes of Til Debt Do Us Part. Not sure if it's available outside Canada, though.
I also read Spousonomics a few months ago, and my memory is fuzzy, but your situation reminds me of a story that was in the book. A husband bought a $6000 Vespa and his wife was angry about it. The authors talked about how she chose to forgive him and that actually made him realize how serious his purchase was and felt remorseful about it. Obviously the story had more to it, so I would encourage you to read the book yourself and not rely on my fuzzy memory.
posted by foxjacket at 12:32 PM on December 22, 2011
Mod note: From the OP:
I don't really want to get into all the nitty-gritty details of this because in some respects I think they are unimportant. A few things: we have a budget but we're going into debt so, obviously, we are exceeding it and allowing that to happen. He and I had a sit-down over this a few weeks ago in which I asserted that I felt we were getting to a tipping point of being "in trouble" regarding our finances. We were taking steps to get this under control. We even talked about this purchase and, again, seemed to be on the same page about it. He wasn't happy about that but seemed to agree.posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:10 PM on December 22, 2011
The way we deal with money in our relationship has been a long slog. We have both made strides to come to some sort of middle ground -- he being more conscious of how and where he spends and me be being a little less uptight about money and debt. However, by and large throughout our relationship it has been my responsibility to keep us in the black. That has been by choice but also by necessity.
Not only was I not on board with this purchase happening now, I was also not on board with how much it was going to be. My comfortable number was somewhere fairly far below what he ultimately spent. He knew this. The fact is, if he wanted to spend more and spend now, he should have presented his argument to me. I swear I am amenable to numbers! However, as it stands right now, by my estimate the numbers support my assertion and my caution.
He and I have talked this out. He feels terrible. He has his "reasons" and they are largely emotional. My reasons are pragmatic. This is a purchase that is a benefit to us as a family but, no, it is not a Christmas gift for me.
Ultimately, it's not about me being right, though. Let's just say that I'm being super irrational about the purchase and our ability to weather it. (I leave that open as a possibility.) Still he should have been up front with me. I do not appreciate being lied to. It makes me feel stupid. And, it's really kicked in my fight or flight response and when I really get stewing over it, flight seems to be where I go. So, I really needed some perspective to help me get through the next month and I've really appreciated the other points of view offered here and also the notes from people who have been through this (on either side of the equation) and learned better ways of dealing with it. You've given me some productive things to chew over. Thank you.
Still he should have been up front with me. I do not appreciate being lied to. It makes me feel stupid.
Once, when I was a kid, I told my parents I would be home at a certain time for a special event. When that time came, I was having too much fun and didn't leave to go home. I knew it was an act of defiance and that I would have hell to pay. But I didn't care and did it anyway. I was not lying to my parents when I said I would be home at a certain time. I had every intention of being home on time. I did not do it to make them feel stupid. I did it to keep having fun. It was not the logical response, but the emotional one that ruled the day.
Without more details other than your husband's reasons were "emotional" in nature, it sounds like he was acting more like a kid...the one who misbehaves knowing there might be negative consequences but just has to do the thing anyway consequences be damned.
Perhaps if you look at it that way, you might be able to see that his behavior was not done in a deliberate or spiteful fashion with the intent to hurt you or to make you feel stupid. I seriously doubt it was. Yes, your husband is not a kid and it would infuriate me too. But unless this purchase was so large as to seriously jeopardize your food and shelter, I can't see that this is an unforgivable crime.
Think about any impractical, emotional decision you have ever made that may have hurt someone. I can't think of one person who has not done that at least a handful of times. Perhaps if you do, you can find some room to forgive him for being emotional and childish.
posted by murrey at 4:32 PM on December 22, 2011
Once, when I was a kid, I told my parents I would be home at a certain time for a special event. When that time came, I was having too much fun and didn't leave to go home. I knew it was an act of defiance and that I would have hell to pay. But I didn't care and did it anyway. I was not lying to my parents when I said I would be home at a certain time. I had every intention of being home on time. I did not do it to make them feel stupid. I did it to keep having fun. It was not the logical response, but the emotional one that ruled the day.
Without more details other than your husband's reasons were "emotional" in nature, it sounds like he was acting more like a kid...the one who misbehaves knowing there might be negative consequences but just has to do the thing anyway consequences be damned.
Perhaps if you look at it that way, you might be able to see that his behavior was not done in a deliberate or spiteful fashion with the intent to hurt you or to make you feel stupid. I seriously doubt it was. Yes, your husband is not a kid and it would infuriate me too. But unless this purchase was so large as to seriously jeopardize your food and shelter, I can't see that this is an unforgivable crime.
Think about any impractical, emotional decision you have ever made that may have hurt someone. I can't think of one person who has not done that at least a handful of times. Perhaps if you do, you can find some room to forgive him for being emotional and childish.
posted by murrey at 4:32 PM on December 22, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
Was it a family item, or something for him? If the former, is it possible that he really meant well, and wasn't out to breach your trust, but get the family something nice for the holiday season? You said that you didn't want him to buy it until after the new year - were there financial circumstances that would change making it a better purchase in January than in December?
posted by sawdustbear at 2:59 PM on December 21, 2011