My friend wants to pledge for fraternity, I don't think it's a good idea, should I let his parents know?
November 27, 2011 2:37 PM Subscribe
I have a close family friend who is currently a freshman in college. Long explanation inside, the general question is if I should talk to him about it, or tell the parents?
I have a close family friend who is currently a freshman in college. His parents have high hopes that he will be able to pursue a degree in pharmacy or medicine. He did generally well during high school, but is easily attracted to the party side of things. He wants to pledge for a fraternity next year, primarily because of the partying aspect. I'm positive his parents will be opposed to this, to the point where they will not pay for his tuition, maybe even withdraw him from the school. From my viewpoint, I don't think he will have the motivation to do well in college anymore.
My argument is that pledging and being part of a fraternity will allow no time to effectively study well for pursing a higher degree in the future. There are exceptions, of course.
I am biased towards not pledging and focus on studying. You can still enjoy college and have fun without being part of a fraternity, correct?
My question is two parts. One is whether or not he should be pledging at all. The bigger question is whether I should talk to him about it and let him make his own decision and take on his own responsibility/consequence, or let his parents know and have everything blow up and lose my trust?
I have a close family friend who is currently a freshman in college. His parents have high hopes that he will be able to pursue a degree in pharmacy or medicine. He did generally well during high school, but is easily attracted to the party side of things. He wants to pledge for a fraternity next year, primarily because of the partying aspect. I'm positive his parents will be opposed to this, to the point where they will not pay for his tuition, maybe even withdraw him from the school. From my viewpoint, I don't think he will have the motivation to do well in college anymore.
My argument is that pledging and being part of a fraternity will allow no time to effectively study well for pursing a higher degree in the future. There are exceptions, of course.
I am biased towards not pledging and focus on studying. You can still enjoy college and have fun without being part of a fraternity, correct?
My question is two parts. One is whether or not he should be pledging at all. The bigger question is whether I should talk to him about it and let him make his own decision and take on his own responsibility/consequence, or let his parents know and have everything blow up and lose my trust?
Whether I should talk to him about it and let him make his own decision and take on his own responsibility/consequence, or let his parents know and have everything blow up and lose my trust?
Nope! I don't even think you should talk to him about it. He's an adult and he can make his own decisions.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 2:41 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
Nope! I don't even think you should talk to him about it. He's an adult and he can make his own decisions.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 2:41 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
What does this have to do with you? I'd talk to your friend about it if you're concerned, but that's about it.
posted by oceanjesse at 2:41 PM on November 27, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by oceanjesse at 2:41 PM on November 27, 2011 [5 favorites]
There are many professionals who have been members of frats. Of you have an opinion offer it to him. After that , it is none of your business.
posted by tomswift at 2:42 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by tomswift at 2:42 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've known fraternity members who were plenty studious on top of their partying. I've known those who never cracked a book. For god's sake, he's a grownup, albeit a young one, and if you can't make a marginally bad decision in your freshman year of college, when can you? Trust me, there are plenty of opportunities at American universities to party hard and lose track of studies, regardless of whether or not you pledge a frat. This is his thing to do, not do, whatever, and you're blowing it way out of proportion.
posted by Tomorrowful at 2:42 PM on November 27, 2011 [15 favorites]
posted by Tomorrowful at 2:42 PM on November 27, 2011 [15 favorites]
Leave it be. This is his life lesson to deal with.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 2:42 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 2:42 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: One is whether or not he should be pledging at all.
Not your business. Answer to this is heavily dependent on the person, their goals, the frat they're pledging to, and the personality of the frat. But really? It's not your business.
The bigger question is whether I should talk to him about it and let him make his own decision and take on his own responsibility/consequence,
You can voice your opinion on frats and his school responsibilities, but 99.9% sure that unless you have personal experience being in a frat (especially the ones he's interested in) he will be skeptical of your advice.
let his parents know and have everything blow up and lose my trust?
Why would you do this? Seriously? Is this about a personal bias you have against frats? If he was doing something physically dangerous (dropping school to smoke meth) then you'd have a better argument. But he's doing something hundreds of thousands college students do each year and somehow survive. THIS IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS.
posted by Anonymous at 2:44 PM on November 27, 2011
Not your business. Answer to this is heavily dependent on the person, their goals, the frat they're pledging to, and the personality of the frat. But really? It's not your business.
The bigger question is whether I should talk to him about it and let him make his own decision and take on his own responsibility/consequence,
You can voice your opinion on frats and his school responsibilities, but 99.9% sure that unless you have personal experience being in a frat (especially the ones he's interested in) he will be skeptical of your advice.
let his parents know and have everything blow up and lose my trust?
Why would you do this? Seriously? Is this about a personal bias you have against frats? If he was doing something physically dangerous (dropping school to smoke meth) then you'd have a better argument. But he's doing something hundreds of thousands college students do each year and somehow survive. THIS IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS.
posted by Anonymous at 2:44 PM on November 27, 2011
It is indisputable that many successful professionals were members of frats, so your problem is not pledging a frat, per se, it's that you don't think he can pledge a frat and become successful.
Similarly, there are lots of people who have not joined frats who still party a lot and make bad grades.
Lots of frats take the GPAs of their members very seriously, because it's a competitive thing to see which frat can have the highest GPA. They have enforced study hall hours, etc.
I think you should stay out of it. You almost certainly do NOT know what's best for your friend.
posted by jayder at 2:45 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Similarly, there are lots of people who have not joined frats who still party a lot and make bad grades.
Lots of frats take the GPAs of their members very seriously, because it's a competitive thing to see which frat can have the highest GPA. They have enforced study hall hours, etc.
I think you should stay out of it. You almost certainly do NOT know what's best for your friend.
posted by jayder at 2:45 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
This is none of your business. You're talking about meddling in the life of an adult (and if he's over 18, which most college students are, he's an adult) and attempting to get his source of income removed because you disagree with his decisions. This is actually a pretty gross violation of his privacy. Unless he is harming other people or in serious physical danger, back off. You're entitled to have your opinion about fraternities. You're not entitled to attempt to manipulate other people into agreeing with you. You may want to look at your impulses towards this kind of controlling behavior, and consider what this says about you.
posted by decathecting at 2:48 PM on November 27, 2011 [13 favorites]
posted by decathecting at 2:48 PM on November 27, 2011 [13 favorites]
Your assumptions are wrong. You should take this opportunity to learn about respecting other people's agency.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 2:52 PM on November 27, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by a robot made out of meat at 2:52 PM on November 27, 2011 [8 favorites]
let his parents know and have everything blow up and lose my trust?
I don't know what your friend's like, but I think most people would react to this not by losing trust in you but by ending the friendship completely.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 2:53 PM on November 27, 2011 [13 favorites]
I don't know what your friend's like, but I think most people would react to this not by losing trust in you but by ending the friendship completely.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 2:53 PM on November 27, 2011 [13 favorites]
Please, stay out of it! While I personally was never interested in Greek life, I can see the advantages, too. He will have a support network. He will have people keeping him safe when he parties. He will learn teamwork and leadership. He will have a network for life, connections that he may be end up being very useful to him.
So sure, he will enjoy the partying side of it. But that's not all he will get from it. If say anything to him or his parents, you are going too far.
posted by DoubleLune at 2:55 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
So sure, he will enjoy the partying side of it. But that's not all he will get from it. If say anything to him or his parents, you are going too far.
posted by DoubleLune at 2:55 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Talk to the young party animal and share your perspective, sure.
DoubleLune—He will have people keeping him safe when he parties. My perspective is different. The college I attended seems to have a hazing death (always alcohol-related, I think) every 5-10 years.
posted by adamrice at 3:03 PM on November 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
DoubleLune—He will have people keeping him safe when he parties. My perspective is different. The college I attended seems to have a hazing death (always alcohol-related, I think) every 5-10 years.
posted by adamrice at 3:03 PM on November 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
Not all frats are party orginizations. Some do, in fact, have other goals. That said, I agree friend has to live his own life. That's why he is in college, right? If he fails... well, he wont be the first nor the last.
posted by Jacen at 3:03 PM on November 27, 2011
posted by Jacen at 3:03 PM on November 27, 2011
Dude, I dislike frat boys just as much as you do, but MYOB. This has nothing to do with you. Keep it that way.
posted by ook at 3:03 PM on November 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by ook at 3:03 PM on November 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
My ex fiance flunked out because he pledged a frat and didn't study, back in the day.
That having been said, plenty of people party without being in a frat, so there's that.
Second of all, frats cost money. Considerable. How will he get the funds without his folks knowing?
Third, his life. He's old enough to screw up if he chooses. Let him. I am no fan of frats at all, but it's his choice and his life.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:06 PM on November 27, 2011
That having been said, plenty of people party without being in a frat, so there's that.
Second of all, frats cost money. Considerable. How will he get the funds without his folks knowing?
Third, his life. He's old enough to screw up if he chooses. Let him. I am no fan of frats at all, but it's his choice and his life.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:06 PM on November 27, 2011
I knew plenty of people in college who pissed away four years without joining a frat, and a bunch of frat members who graduated summa and magna. So there's that.
Mostly, though: tell his parents? God, no. Tell him what you think if you must, but otherwise keep your nose out of it.
posted by rtha at 3:06 PM on November 27, 2011
Mostly, though: tell his parents? God, no. Tell him what you think if you must, but otherwise keep your nose out of it.
posted by rtha at 3:06 PM on November 27, 2011
His parents have high hopes that he will be able to pursue a degree in pharmacy or medicine.
Oh, and at this stage of the game, his parents' high hopes have nothing to do with anything. What does HE wish to do with his life?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:07 PM on November 27, 2011 [17 favorites]
Oh, and at this stage of the game, his parents' high hopes have nothing to do with anything. What does HE wish to do with his life?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:07 PM on November 27, 2011 [17 favorites]
What friend would deliberately interfere so his parents would "not pay for his tuition, maybe even withdraw him from the school." (By the way, his parents can't "withdraw him"; he's an adult. If they cease to pay his tuition, then there are student loans. Once you're an adult mummy and daddy don't get to make decisions for you.)
Also, you have no standing to comment on other people's motivation to study. Lots of fraternities enforce study hours during pledging. Betcha didn't know that did you?
This reads like you're afraid of losing your friend to his fraternity brothers. While that's a normal feeling when you're friend makes changes, it's not a reason to interfere. Mind your own business.
posted by 26.2 at 3:08 PM on November 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
Also, you have no standing to comment on other people's motivation to study. Lots of fraternities enforce study hours during pledging. Betcha didn't know that did you?
This reads like you're afraid of losing your friend to his fraternity brothers. While that's a normal feeling when you're friend makes changes, it's not a reason to interfere. Mind your own business.
posted by 26.2 at 3:08 PM on November 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
As others have explained very well, this is none of your damned business. Talking to his parents about it is tattletale behavior, and frankly just not the kind of thing a friend does to another friend. (If we were talking about him taking up heavy drug use, yeah, talk to his parents. However, your friend is only considering joining a social club.)
I don't think it's unreasonable to bring up your concerns to your friend--but if someone told me that they thought I couldn't handle my academic work and membership in a club, I'd be a bit offended.
Honestly, though? I don't think this is actually about your friend's motivation, or the fraternity. I'm going to take a wild stab and guess that it's about a fear you have that you might lose your friend to a lifestyle you don't like very much. Maybe you should examine why you don't like the idea of having a friend in a fraternity, and/or why you're afraid to lose your friend. Figure out whether those fears are plausible or not, and maybe discuss why you're concerned with your friend.
posted by lemonadeheretic at 3:10 PM on November 27, 2011 [5 favorites]
I don't think it's unreasonable to bring up your concerns to your friend--but if someone told me that they thought I couldn't handle my academic work and membership in a club, I'd be a bit offended.
Honestly, though? I don't think this is actually about your friend's motivation, or the fraternity. I'm going to take a wild stab and guess that it's about a fear you have that you might lose your friend to a lifestyle you don't like very much. Maybe you should examine why you don't like the idea of having a friend in a fraternity, and/or why you're afraid to lose your friend. Figure out whether those fears are plausible or not, and maybe discuss why you're concerned with your friend.
posted by lemonadeheretic at 3:10 PM on November 27, 2011 [5 favorites]
Question 1 (should he be pledging) - it doesn't matter, it's none of your business. Feel free not to pledge yourself, and I suppose you could invite him to come here and ask if he should pledge, or get advice on what kind of fraternity to try to get into.
Question 2 (what you should do) - let him make his own decision and be responsible for his own mistakes. This is what differentiates an 18-year-old from a 2-year-old. It is within the realm of "okay for a friend to do" behavior for you to mention your concerns, one time only, and then let the subject alone. I don't think that's likely to do you or him much good, and don't recommend it, but it's not profoundly unthinkable behavior.
Under no circumstances call his parents about this matter. I will grant you a one-time only exception to this IF he does something seriously hazardous (such as participating in hazing rituals or getting into a car wreck or something else which is physically dangerous.) I also grant you permission to refrain from helping him hide evidence of any trouble he gets into: you don't have to lie and say he was at your house or anything.
What, you say? He wouldn't put you in that kind of situation? The suggestion is absurd? Yeah, I kind of figured that. Chill out, man.
posted by SMPA at 3:13 PM on November 27, 2011
Question 2 (what you should do) - let him make his own decision and be responsible for his own mistakes. This is what differentiates an 18-year-old from a 2-year-old. It is within the realm of "okay for a friend to do" behavior for you to mention your concerns, one time only, and then let the subject alone. I don't think that's likely to do you or him much good, and don't recommend it, but it's not profoundly unthinkable behavior.
Under no circumstances call his parents about this matter. I will grant you a one-time only exception to this IF he does something seriously hazardous (such as participating in hazing rituals or getting into a car wreck or something else which is physically dangerous.) I also grant you permission to refrain from helping him hide evidence of any trouble he gets into: you don't have to lie and say he was at your house or anything.
What, you say? He wouldn't put you in that kind of situation? The suggestion is absurd? Yeah, I kind of figured that. Chill out, man.
posted by SMPA at 3:13 PM on November 27, 2011
Overall though, having been through college, gotten a job, and moved on with my life, I am completely in the "this is the time to experiment and see what works and what doesn't" camp, fraternities & all: For all it may seem to be the great new unsupervised life, college is, in fact, a relatively well monitored environment with an entire staff of damage-control specialists on hand to help you back on your feet should your decisions prove bad.
Let me also point out, fraternity connections can, in fact, be valuable later in life, and even during college. The social networks it creates is a leverageable tool, both in & out of college. If you're not aware of that, you need to do some more research before you even attempt to have a pros-and-cons type conversation.
Regardless of how you feel about frats & frat life however, this is NOT a run-to-the-parents kind of emergency --don't go there. You will just look silly & piss people off.
Last: Your objection seems to be his study habits & possibly his penchant for "partying" (is that a code word for drinking?). Why not address that instead of his chosen social venue? Because one is just window dressing, the other is the substance of your concern.
posted by Ys at 3:19 PM on November 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
Let me also point out, fraternity connections can, in fact, be valuable later in life, and even during college. The social networks it creates is a leverageable tool, both in & out of college. If you're not aware of that, you need to do some more research before you even attempt to have a pros-and-cons type conversation.
Regardless of how you feel about frats & frat life however, this is NOT a run-to-the-parents kind of emergency --don't go there. You will just look silly & piss people off.
Last: Your objection seems to be his study habits & possibly his penchant for "partying" (is that a code word for drinking?). Why not address that instead of his chosen social venue? Because one is just window dressing, the other is the substance of your concern.
posted by Ys at 3:19 PM on November 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
I did not pledge a fraternity in college, but if a friend had gone over my head and talked to my parents about this or a similar non-destructive behavior*, I would've been very angry and frankly incredulous that a friend would go over my head like that. I'd also expect a pretty honest apology.
*It's not that it can't be destructive, by any means, but "pledging a fraternity" is not the same as heavy drug addiction, domestic abuse or other types of actual, serious, harm-causing events.
In fact, many would say that the reason you go to college is to form that initial social network of people that you call on in your early working years to help you get a job/land a residency/get an internship. Grades are important, but 10 years down the line it's also nice to be able to draw on old college resources when you're trying to move positions or change a career.
posted by andrewesque at 3:19 PM on November 27, 2011
*It's not that it can't be destructive, by any means, but "pledging a fraternity" is not the same as heavy drug addiction, domestic abuse or other types of actual, serious, harm-causing events.
In fact, many would say that the reason you go to college is to form that initial social network of people that you call on in your early working years to help you get a job/land a residency/get an internship. Grades are important, but 10 years down the line it's also nice to be able to draw on old college resources when you're trying to move positions or change a career.
posted by andrewesque at 3:19 PM on November 27, 2011
None of your business quite frankly.
posted by koahiatamadl at 3:20 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by koahiatamadl at 3:20 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
Do you want to remain on good terms with this close family friend, and avoid risking your relationship even with his parents? If not, then by all means, but into his personal business and tattle(is this even the right word? what is he doing wrong?) on him to his folks.
posted by TheTingTangTong at 3:23 PM on November 27, 2011
posted by TheTingTangTong at 3:23 PM on November 27, 2011
The set of circumstances where it's right to tell on an adult to his or her parents is pretty much limited to cases where they are a danger to themselves or others and some of the more serious felonies.
posted by auto-correct at 3:25 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by auto-correct at 3:25 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
My little brother was in a frat in college (Sigma Chi), and he did a ton of partying. He also worked his ass off, got good grades and now he's in his second year of pharmacy school. It is possible to both be in a party frat and succeed in life.
posted by mesha steele at 3:30 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by mesha steele at 3:30 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
I joined a frat in college. I was my pledge class president. Later, I was president of the fraternity.
I also graduated with a 3.3 GPA, completed college in three years, while taking a minor, studying abroad in India, having internships, and went on to have an awesome career after college.
I am biased towards not pledging and focus on studying.
I'm glad you're aware of your bias. However, you seem to be oblivious that your bias is blinding you to the foolishness of what you're considering.
None of us know what will happen to this kid over the next four years. Greek life is not for everyone, and you absolutely do not have to join a fraternity to have a great college experience. You're in no position to involve yourself in this decision; certainly not if you want to keep a relationship with him after the fact.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 3:31 PM on November 27, 2011 [4 favorites]
I also graduated with a 3.3 GPA, completed college in three years, while taking a minor, studying abroad in India, having internships, and went on to have an awesome career after college.
I am biased towards not pledging and focus on studying.
I'm glad you're aware of your bias. However, you seem to be oblivious that your bias is blinding you to the foolishness of what you're considering.
None of us know what will happen to this kid over the next four years. Greek life is not for everyone, and you absolutely do not have to join a fraternity to have a great college experience. You're in no position to involve yourself in this decision; certainly not if you want to keep a relationship with him after the fact.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 3:31 PM on November 27, 2011 [4 favorites]
You can still enjoy college and have fun without being part of a fraternity, correct?Yes. Also, you can still do well in college and be studious with being part of a fraternity.
Similarly, not being in a fraternity is not going to stop a college kid from partying.
posted by Flunkie at 3:32 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
He wants to pledge for a fraternity next year,
You are talking about becoming involved with a situation that hasn't even happened yet. Beyond the fact that this isn't your business, the problem may never even arise. College is a time for exploration and self discovery. His interest in pledging may not even exist next year.
Frankly, what you are proposing sounds like drama-seeking cloaked in a false sense of concern.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 3:35 PM on November 27, 2011 [8 favorites]
You are talking about becoming involved with a situation that hasn't even happened yet. Beyond the fact that this isn't your business, the problem may never even arise. College is a time for exploration and self discovery. His interest in pledging may not even exist next year.
Frankly, what you are proposing sounds like drama-seeking cloaked in a false sense of concern.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 3:35 PM on November 27, 2011 [8 favorites]
I think you're way off base here but whatever, I popped in to say that if he's financially dependant on his parents, who are not going to support him in pledging a fraternity, he may find he can't really join anyway. Dues are considerable these days.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:38 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 3:38 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
I used to work with a bunch of frat brothers at a major financial firm. (They hadn't all gone to school together but were in the same frat.) They all had professional, senior positions. The network they'd created in college was professionally, very beneficial. They'd definitely been partiers but they had also all graduated.
Telling his parents and risking him losing his parents' financial support is incredibly inappropriate and mean. If you think he's at risk of doing poorly in school if he joins a fraternity, then I think you should talk to him about it. It is easy for kids to lose focus when they're away from home for the first time and where many diversions exist. And it is good to have someone reminding him to work hard and not goof off too much. However, his success or failure at school is his own. His parents' aspirations for him (pharmacy/medicine) are not relevant. He gets to decide his future, not you and not his parents.
Some kids mess up in school because of their parents' plans for them, i.e. he doesn't want to be a doctor or pharmacist. Maybe the camaraderie of fraternal life will be beneficial, or maybe not, but it's his choice and you should respect that.
posted by shoesietart at 3:41 PM on November 27, 2011
Telling his parents and risking him losing his parents' financial support is incredibly inappropriate and mean. If you think he's at risk of doing poorly in school if he joins a fraternity, then I think you should talk to him about it. It is easy for kids to lose focus when they're away from home for the first time and where many diversions exist. And it is good to have someone reminding him to work hard and not goof off too much. However, his success or failure at school is his own. His parents' aspirations for him (pharmacy/medicine) are not relevant. He gets to decide his future, not you and not his parents.
Some kids mess up in school because of their parents' plans for them, i.e. he doesn't want to be a doctor or pharmacist. Maybe the camaraderie of fraternal life will be beneficial, or maybe not, but it's his choice and you should respect that.
posted by shoesietart at 3:41 PM on November 27, 2011
There are worse things in the world than joining the Greek System in college.
posted by Val_E_Yum at 3:41 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Val_E_Yum at 3:41 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Undermining someone's college funding is not something a friend would do. This is his business, not yours. I strongly suggest you mind your own knitting and let your friend do the same.
posted by Space Kitty at 3:43 PM on November 27, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by Space Kitty at 3:43 PM on November 27, 2011 [5 favorites]
Joining a fraternity is not detrimental to academics unless you allow it to be, and if you do, it's not because it's a fraternity but because you were going to prioritize things above studying no matter what. There's no real concern here.
Don't tell the parents (and have them pull his tuition, Christ!). Don't even talk with the kid.
posted by J. Wilson at 3:52 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
Don't tell the parents (and have them pull his tuition, Christ!). Don't even talk with the kid.
posted by J. Wilson at 3:52 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
This is absolultely none of your business, in any way shape or form. Whether he should pledge or not is out of your jurisdiction, as is whether or not you should tell his parents.
College kids need to have their own lives and make their own decisions and deal with the consequences. Parents need to have relationships with their children that don't involve other people trying to meddle.
Butt out.
posted by Kololo at 3:52 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
College kids need to have their own lives and make their own decisions and deal with the consequences. Parents need to have relationships with their children that don't involve other people trying to meddle.
Butt out.
posted by Kololo at 3:52 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, if the concern is how well he does in college/life:
- if he joins a frat, his academic career will possibly be harmed
- if you tell his parents, you say they'll probably cut him off and his academic career will definitely be harmed
Also, people here are talking about how frat members can do well in school; I'm here to testify that one can very easily not belong to a frat and still blow off studying beyond any sane degree. If he's not motivated, grounding him isn't going to help.
posted by egg drop at 3:53 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
- if he joins a frat, his academic career will possibly be harmed
- if you tell his parents, you say they'll probably cut him off and his academic career will definitely be harmed
Also, people here are talking about how frat members can do well in school; I'm here to testify that one can very easily not belong to a frat and still blow off studying beyond any sane degree. If he's not motivated, grounding him isn't going to help.
posted by egg drop at 3:53 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
I was in a fraternity. I partied a lot. I also graduated with a 3.85GPA.
Do you really think you are so wise that you can make a blanket statement about it?
posted by Flood at 3:56 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Do you really think you are so wise that you can make a blanket statement about it?
posted by Flood at 3:56 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
There is a good chance that being in a fraternity will help him do better in school. The brotherhood would probably get him in a group of guys that would guide him toward furthering his education. Most fraternities have a lot of pride and like the idea of how many successful brothers there are.
Also, you can't continue being in a fraternity if you are flunking out of school. Let him make that decision himself.
If you are aware that his parents would take his college funds away, then he is as well. I doubt that his parents would let that be known to you and not to him. If he thought he was jeopardizing his future in partying or in his education, I am sure he would make a decision based upon that.
He may pleasantly surprise the world or the fraternity may not accept him at all. Again, let him make the decision for himself.
posted by Yellow at 3:59 PM on November 27, 2011
Also, you can't continue being in a fraternity if you are flunking out of school. Let him make that decision himself.
If you are aware that his parents would take his college funds away, then he is as well. I doubt that his parents would let that be known to you and not to him. If he thought he was jeopardizing his future in partying or in his education, I am sure he would make a decision based upon that.
He may pleasantly surprise the world or the fraternity may not accept him at all. Again, let him make the decision for himself.
posted by Yellow at 3:59 PM on November 27, 2011
In university, one of my sisters was in a sorority, the other in a business frat. Both of them turned out fine, and they are still quite close to the friends that they made at school.
I'm no fan of these kind of organizations--heck, I went to NYU, where they barely existed as a part of campus life--but pledging doesn't equal failing out of school.
Partying is something that kids get to do and need to do in college. Maybe it doesn't match your own ideals, but I actually see it as an important part of becoming more socially adept. Nowadays, it'd be great if more kids in their 20s came out of college knowing how to deal with other people in a social setting.
Nthing the mind your own business.
posted by so much modern time at 4:00 PM on November 27, 2011
I'm no fan of these kind of organizations--heck, I went to NYU, where they barely existed as a part of campus life--but pledging doesn't equal failing out of school.
Partying is something that kids get to do and need to do in college. Maybe it doesn't match your own ideals, but I actually see it as an important part of becoming more socially adept. Nowadays, it'd be great if more kids in their 20s came out of college knowing how to deal with other people in a social setting.
Nthing the mind your own business.
posted by so much modern time at 4:00 PM on November 27, 2011
God. I might have actually stayed in college if I had joined such a social group (sorority), and I'm not saying that just to be contrary to the original poster.
I tend to be really insular and private; a sorority might've helped me not be such a social moth.
I definitely wouldn't have gone the route of "be nervous about meeting new people/stay in my room every evening/ never volunteer for anything/ get bored and forgo studying -because- I need a busy schedule to keep me moving."
Today, I would have had a social group (friends and likely business connections) that I could fall back on. I would have felt, sans religion, a part of something bigger, an undercurrent of people that I could connect with anywhere via mutual understanding across the U.S.*
*I think that's why I joined the military. Turns out I -like- this AND I can still maintain individuality despite the military also having a rep of being a bunch of party-folk.
posted by DisreputableDog at 4:06 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
I tend to be really insular and private; a sorority might've helped me not be such a social moth.
I definitely wouldn't have gone the route of "be nervous about meeting new people/stay in my room every evening/ never volunteer for anything/ get bored and forgo studying -because- I need a busy schedule to keep me moving."
Today, I would have had a social group (friends and likely business connections) that I could fall back on. I would have felt, sans religion, a part of something bigger, an undercurrent of people that I could connect with anywhere via mutual understanding across the U.S.*
*I think that's why I joined the military. Turns out I -like- this AND I can still maintain individuality despite the military also having a rep of being a bunch of party-folk.
posted by DisreputableDog at 4:06 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
What's your goal? To control your friend's choices? That's not likely to be successful. If you want to help your friend, listen. Listen to why he wants to join a fraternity. Find out which fraternities are known for most helping (or least screwing up) academics, and recommend that. Does your friend really want to be a pharmacist? Maybe he needs some help dealing with what sound like pretty restrictive parents. His parents should listen, too, but if they don't, you shouldn't be their eyes and ears.
posted by theora55 at 4:14 PM on November 27, 2011
posted by theora55 at 4:14 PM on November 27, 2011
Ok, so I joined a fraternity at a top, private school. We all still studied, we all still partied. You can do both - it's up to the person and the fraternity. Even during the pledging process, I (and many others in my pledge class) managed a 4.0.
If you were my friend and you detonated this bomb with my family, I'd cut you off for some many flavors for forever. Bring it up to him, once, and then let it go. This isn't your battle. And the more you push, the more he'll push away.
posted by SNWidget at 4:20 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you were my friend and you detonated this bomb with my family, I'd cut you off for some many flavors for forever. Bring it up to him, once, and then let it go. This isn't your battle. And the more you push, the more he'll push away.
posted by SNWidget at 4:20 PM on November 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
Today, I would have had a social group (friends and likely business connections) that I could fall back on. I would have felt, sans religion, a part of something bigger, an undercurrent of people that I could connect with anywhere via mutual understanding across the U.S.*
That's an awfully big assumption. I mean, I get that the OP's friend may get these advantages if he joins the Greek system, but he may not. I lived and breathed my greek social life, friendship and housing for four years. I really loved it and have no regrets. Twenty years later, I couldn't give a toss. I speak to literally not a single person I pledged with, partied with or lived with from university. It was great, it was over, it's irrelevant to the life I've built for myself. (Actually that's not true - I do still wear my letter sweatshirt at home sometimes; those old Champions really were made well back then!)
Basically, there's a lot of assumption in this thread that making Choice A will lead to Outcome B. It may or it may not; there is literally no way to know how it will or will not work out for the OP's friend.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:21 PM on November 27, 2011
That's an awfully big assumption. I mean, I get that the OP's friend may get these advantages if he joins the Greek system, but he may not. I lived and breathed my greek social life, friendship and housing for four years. I really loved it and have no regrets. Twenty years later, I couldn't give a toss. I speak to literally not a single person I pledged with, partied with or lived with from university. It was great, it was over, it's irrelevant to the life I've built for myself. (Actually that's not true - I do still wear my letter sweatshirt at home sometimes; those old Champions really were made well back then!)
Basically, there's a lot of assumption in this thread that making Choice A will lead to Outcome B. It may or it may not; there is literally no way to know how it will or will not work out for the OP's friend.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:21 PM on November 27, 2011
DUDE. Do not call his parents because he is considering going Greek. That is an intense overreaction. It might not even happen, it might happen and he'll love it, he might even join a frat, invite you to a party, and YOU will love it.
I was personally really high and mighty about the Greek system before I went to a few parties and had fun. Part of college is learning how to balance your life without any outside party - your parents - telling what to do and where to go all the time. I had a lot of fun in college AND I got great grades, and I had a job, and learning how to do all those things at the same time was possibly the most valuable thing I learned in college.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 4:24 PM on November 27, 2011
I was personally really high and mighty about the Greek system before I went to a few parties and had fun. Part of college is learning how to balance your life without any outside party - your parents - telling what to do and where to go all the time. I had a lot of fun in college AND I got great grades, and I had a job, and learning how to do all those things at the same time was possibly the most valuable thing I learned in college.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 4:24 PM on November 27, 2011
Just as a data point, many of the best students at my university were in fraternities -- a bunch of newspaper editors, about half of the undergraduate student government, and many of the kids who were heavily involved with Hillel.
Fraternities offer a lot of different opportunities. You make friends, connections, people with whom you may network (or work) later in life. You have an extra student housing choice that may be better than the dorms. You also get a bunch of structure and rules that the average college student doesn't have: if I screwed up my GPA on my own, it only hurt me. But my friends who were in fraternities and sororities genuinely wanted to keep their GPAs up for the good of their houses.
Most fraternities, particularly ones affiliated with IFC, will also have mandatory community service hours and mandatory study hours. And pledges aren't allowed to drink at official Greek functions -- this is obviously not strictly enforced on all campuses or in all houses, but it's the by-the-book rule. So by pledging, your friend the partier would also be voluntarily going stone cold sober for a little while.
If you have concerns about Greek life, you might try to educate yourself about the fraternity your friend wants to join, or the Greek system in general.
posted by brina at 4:29 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Fraternities offer a lot of different opportunities. You make friends, connections, people with whom you may network (or work) later in life. You have an extra student housing choice that may be better than the dorms. You also get a bunch of structure and rules that the average college student doesn't have: if I screwed up my GPA on my own, it only hurt me. But my friends who were in fraternities and sororities genuinely wanted to keep their GPAs up for the good of their houses.
Most fraternities, particularly ones affiliated with IFC, will also have mandatory community service hours and mandatory study hours. And pledges aren't allowed to drink at official Greek functions -- this is obviously not strictly enforced on all campuses or in all houses, but it's the by-the-book rule. So by pledging, your friend the partier would also be voluntarily going stone cold sober for a little while.
If you have concerns about Greek life, you might try to educate yourself about the fraternity your friend wants to join, or the Greek system in general.
posted by brina at 4:29 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Completely aside from whether or not a fraternity is a good idea, this is frankly none of your business. Be a good friend and offer your advice to temper his partying with working hard, and then stay out of his way. You absolutely should not be considering talking to his parents about his decisions.
posted by asciident at 4:36 PM on November 27, 2011
posted by asciident at 4:36 PM on November 27, 2011
Agreed that this is absolutely none of your business.
And as for your opinion of fraternities -- I'm not the Greek type myself (ha!) but my husband was the social chair of his fraternity. He was hired right out of college by an alumnus of his fraternity, quickly climbed the ranks, and was made Chief Operations Officer by age 29. Sure, they partied hard from time to time, back then -- we started dating at 18 & 20, so I was there. But that's not all fraternities are about, not by a long shot. Just as college isn't all about being a study robot.
posted by changeling at 4:56 PM on November 27, 2011
And as for your opinion of fraternities -- I'm not the Greek type myself (ha!) but my husband was the social chair of his fraternity. He was hired right out of college by an alumnus of his fraternity, quickly climbed the ranks, and was made Chief Operations Officer by age 29. Sure, they partied hard from time to time, back then -- we started dating at 18 & 20, so I was there. But that's not all fraternities are about, not by a long shot. Just as college isn't all about being a study robot.
posted by changeling at 4:56 PM on November 27, 2011
It seems the whole gamut has been covered already, but I want to add that anyone that speaks in broad strokes (or absolutes) is cheating your question. In short, there are more than 800 colleges/universities (in the US) that host fraternity chapters, and more than 6000 total collegiate chapters at those schools. I've been to more than 400 of those schools, and I can tell you that the general answers I'm reading here are well-intentioned, but in many cases not fully informed.
I've worked professionally with undergraduate fraternity men for almost 20 years, and there are some real benefits --and some very real challenges-- that come with membership and the joining process. (My experience is North-American, only, FWIW.) In my experience with fraternities, broad strokes are dangerous, and absolutes are lazy (or perhaps the product of Farrell/Belushi movies).
While your friend's decision is not under your control, my experience with scads of undergraduate students tells me that there are good questions that you can be asking (as a friend) without "tattling" or being too nosy.
I would be happy to talk specifics via me mail. I'm glad you're concerned -- as a friend, you should be. I think there are intelligent ways you can prod him to think about the choices (and ramifications) he's about to face.
posted by rubberfish at 5:06 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've worked professionally with undergraduate fraternity men for almost 20 years, and there are some real benefits --and some very real challenges-- that come with membership and the joining process. (My experience is North-American, only, FWIW.) In my experience with fraternities, broad strokes are dangerous, and absolutes are lazy (or perhaps the product of Farrell/Belushi movies).
While your friend's decision is not under your control, my experience with scads of undergraduate students tells me that there are good questions that you can be asking (as a friend) without "tattling" or being too nosy.
I would be happy to talk specifics via me mail. I'm glad you're concerned -- as a friend, you should be. I think there are intelligent ways you can prod him to think about the choices (and ramifications) he's about to face.
posted by rubberfish at 5:06 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
You can talk to your friend about this and you can talk to his parents about this. Depending on how you go about those activities can make you look like a concerned (but a bit nosy) friend versus a thundering douchebag. This is not your life, and this is not your family, so while he/they may appreciate your opinion, go about it gently and respectfully.
But your biggest problem is you are operating under some false assumptions. You seem to take it as a given that being in a frat = no studying, and not in a frat = lots of studying. I'm sure there are plenty of frat boys and sorority girls who are perfectly capable of studying and working hard and partying it up at night/on the weekends. This is a matter of self-discipline, and even if you friend doesn't join a frat, he'd likely be faced with the same kind of challenges in a dorm or in an apartment. I didn't join a frat but I sure as hell wasted a lot of time partying when I should've been studying. At the same time, there were some Greeks hunkering down and studying instead of partying.
posted by zardoz at 5:23 PM on November 27, 2011
But your biggest problem is you are operating under some false assumptions. You seem to take it as a given that being in a frat = no studying, and not in a frat = lots of studying. I'm sure there are plenty of frat boys and sorority girls who are perfectly capable of studying and working hard and partying it up at night/on the weekends. This is a matter of self-discipline, and even if you friend doesn't join a frat, he'd likely be faced with the same kind of challenges in a dorm or in an apartment. I didn't join a frat but I sure as hell wasted a lot of time partying when I should've been studying. At the same time, there were some Greeks hunkering down and studying instead of partying.
posted by zardoz at 5:23 PM on November 27, 2011
I get that you want to help your friend, but if he's joining a frat for party purposes, whether he gets into one is not going to change his attitude -- and your arguments for why he shouldn't do it won't hold any weight. No matter what his path, he is isn't going to be more or less studious and serious about his future if that's not his mindset. Sure, you can offer your opinion - I would not involve his parents, I think that is seriously overstepping your boundaries - but you need to consider that even if your arguments were factual and not a generalised opinion, he may not care.
posted by sm1tten at 6:50 PM on November 27, 2011
posted by sm1tten at 6:50 PM on November 27, 2011
You need to be more analytical about this. Clearly you have an opinion "don't think it's a good idea". But your opinion could be wrong, for all sorts of reasons. Moreover, it's not your place to interfere and manipulate, so your second suggestion is out of the question.
The most you can do is to discuss the subject with your friend, adult to adult. His parents' wishes are not relevant. I think you will learn something too, in the process.
posted by polymodus at 6:56 PM on November 27, 2011
The most you can do is to discuss the subject with your friend, adult to adult. His parents' wishes are not relevant. I think you will learn something too, in the process.
posted by polymodus at 6:56 PM on November 27, 2011
Stay out of this. It's his decision and it's not like he's deciding whether or not to try meth or do something else that could be life-threatening. He's thinking about joining a social group. He will find some sort of social group and go to parties regardless of whether or not he joins a frat and this has nothing to do with whether or not he wants to become a pharmacist or whatever else.
If you talk to his parents, he will likely not want to be friends with you anymore.
posted by fromageball at 8:05 PM on November 27, 2011
If you talk to his parents, he will likely not want to be friends with you anymore.
posted by fromageball at 8:05 PM on November 27, 2011
Yeah, talk to him about it if you want, but leave the parents out. My brother joined a frat, I did not, we accomplished amounts of partying, and both of us turned out well. Some frats are more geared towards success than others (academically speaking) but you know what, my "college experience" was just as valuable to me (and maybe slightly more so) as my book learnin's and such. That includes making mistakes / figuring things out on your own.
posted by Dr. ShadowMask at 8:26 PM on November 27, 2011
posted by Dr. ShadowMask at 8:26 PM on November 27, 2011
Save your Voice of Caution for something that really matters.
You are really over-invested in this kid's life and choices. Usually I get like this when there's something bothering me in my own life. Do you wish you'd partied more? Do you wish you'd partied less? Do you currently wish that you were doing something else?
The question isn't whether or not he joins a frat. The question has something to do with why you're into fixing this, at this moment.
posted by barnone at 8:43 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
You are really over-invested in this kid's life and choices. Usually I get like this when there's something bothering me in my own life. Do you wish you'd partied more? Do you wish you'd partied less? Do you currently wish that you were doing something else?
The question isn't whether or not he joins a frat. The question has something to do with why you're into fixing this, at this moment.
posted by barnone at 8:43 PM on November 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Stay out of this and disassociate. You're already willing to threaten this person's future over your personal preferences. You are clearly not a friend.
posted by spaltavian at 9:18 PM on November 27, 2011
posted by spaltavian at 9:18 PM on November 27, 2011
My own grades (and those of many of my mates) improved when we joined fraternities. The party side you see is just that -- a side of the experience.
I take it you haven't seen the study hall sessions or inter-fraternity tutoring. There's often community service aspects and a whole host of other enriching activities.
You dedicate yourself to a cause -- a brotherhood -- which is about helping your fellow brothers succeed as people. Academically, socially, culturally -- in some cases, spiritually.
Furthermore, the drop-out rate over the four years of non-fraternity friends was much higher (25%+) than fraternity friends (0%). And you don't have to be in a fraternity to party. I know plenty of people that f'ed their lives up who were not part of fraternities.
Any chance you're worried that you'll lose your friendship when he joins?
posted by nickrussell at 3:28 AM on November 28, 2011
I take it you haven't seen the study hall sessions or inter-fraternity tutoring. There's often community service aspects and a whole host of other enriching activities.
You dedicate yourself to a cause -- a brotherhood -- which is about helping your fellow brothers succeed as people. Academically, socially, culturally -- in some cases, spiritually.
Furthermore, the drop-out rate over the four years of non-fraternity friends was much higher (25%+) than fraternity friends (0%). And you don't have to be in a fraternity to party. I know plenty of people that f'ed their lives up who were not part of fraternities.
Any chance you're worried that you'll lose your friendship when he joins?
posted by nickrussell at 3:28 AM on November 28, 2011
We don't have frats in the UK, but I, and many of my now close friends, were part of a student society that put on shows once a year, requiring a lot of commitment outwith lectures as well as frequent parties. Very drunken parties. If someone felt the need to tell my parents about it, you can bet I would have been very angry - your friend is an adult, and unless you feel he has an alcohol problem or another health issue that absolutely is something his parents or someone In Charge needs to know about, wind your neck in.
posted by mippy at 7:50 AM on November 29, 2011
posted by mippy at 7:50 AM on November 29, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by jenkinsEar at 2:40 PM on November 27, 2011 [26 favorites]