The rules for job offers
July 7, 2011 4:54 PM Subscribe
Job offer ethics and protocol: I don't want to break the rules, but I don't know what the rules are.
I was suddenly offered a job that I don't want very much--at least I'm not ready to commit to it right away. I'm a software developer working on a temporary contract that lasts for another 2 months, and I've been applying for jobs to start after that ends. I sent out my resume without expecting it to lead anywhere, but this company replied to me right away, gave me two interviews and a test in three days, and sent an offer the next day--so I got this offer before I even knew what hit me.
The main reason I might reject this offer are (1) I'm not ready to commit, especially to a company I'm not super-enthusiastic about (I like the people, but their product sucks); and (2) I really want a job in a different city; I've been sending out resumes in both this city and the other, but I'm still hoping to get something over there.
Questions:
1. Is it totally stupid to reject an offer when I don't currently have any other offers? Until recently I felt unemployable because I lacked practical experience, but now I've gained experience, so maybe I'm a better candidate than I was.
2. If I accept, am I allowed to change my mind before I've actually started the job?
3. If I start the job and I hate it, or I get a really great offer somewhere else, how long am I obligated to stay? Can I leave 2 weeks after starting, or would that make me a horrible person?
When I say "allowed" and "obligated", I don't mean legally; I mean morally, or according to custom (US, software industry). Please tell me I'm allowed to do without violating decorum.
I was suddenly offered a job that I don't want very much--at least I'm not ready to commit to it right away. I'm a software developer working on a temporary contract that lasts for another 2 months, and I've been applying for jobs to start after that ends. I sent out my resume without expecting it to lead anywhere, but this company replied to me right away, gave me two interviews and a test in three days, and sent an offer the next day--so I got this offer before I even knew what hit me.
The main reason I might reject this offer are (1) I'm not ready to commit, especially to a company I'm not super-enthusiastic about (I like the people, but their product sucks); and (2) I really want a job in a different city; I've been sending out resumes in both this city and the other, but I'm still hoping to get something over there.
Questions:
1. Is it totally stupid to reject an offer when I don't currently have any other offers? Until recently I felt unemployable because I lacked practical experience, but now I've gained experience, so maybe I'm a better candidate than I was.
2. If I accept, am I allowed to change my mind before I've actually started the job?
3. If I start the job and I hate it, or I get a really great offer somewhere else, how long am I obligated to stay? Can I leave 2 weeks after starting, or would that make me a horrible person?
When I say "allowed" and "obligated", I don't mean legally; I mean morally, or according to custom (US, software industry). Please tell me I'm allowed to do without violating decorum.
With regards to #2 and #3... if you accept, accept with the honest belief that you are going to accept it and give it a real shot. That said, if you change your mind or decide that the place just isn't for you (or get a better offer that you really want), do not give it a second thought! If they suddenly decided they didn't like you or couldn't afford you or whatever, they would fire you in an instance.
So yeah. If you accept, do it because you do want the job. But if things change, don't feel bad about it - just be professional and then move on with your life.
If you don't take this job, good luck!
posted by alaijmw at 5:04 PM on July 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
So yeah. If you accept, do it because you do want the job. But if things change, don't feel bad about it - just be professional and then move on with your life.
If you don't take this job, good luck!
posted by alaijmw at 5:04 PM on July 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
Be clear with them about the offer and your situation. Something like:
"Thank you so much for your generous offer, I have enjoyed meeting with you and the staff there. As my contract is not up for another 2 months, I am not in a hurry. Additionally, I'd like to be sure I get something that is going to be the best fit for my goals. I feel very happy to have a larger range of opportunities than I'm used to, and I want to make sure to explore all my options before I make a decision."
If you misrepresented your enthusiasm and availability to them, you will have to walk that back with them, but better to do that now then later.
If you really are that great a fit for them, they will keep you in mind and understand.
Keep a tone of forthrightness and integrity. Don't misrepresent your availability and actual ability to take a decision. There may be an offer letter, and HR paperwork associated with accepting the job. If you sign stuff, or agree to stuff, follow through. Don't accept it contingent on maybe getting a better offer, that lacks integrity.
posted by artlung at 5:06 PM on July 7, 2011 [4 favorites]
"Thank you so much for your generous offer, I have enjoyed meeting with you and the staff there. As my contract is not up for another 2 months, I am not in a hurry. Additionally, I'd like to be sure I get something that is going to be the best fit for my goals. I feel very happy to have a larger range of opportunities than I'm used to, and I want to make sure to explore all my options before I make a decision."
If you misrepresented your enthusiasm and availability to them, you will have to walk that back with them, but better to do that now then later.
If you really are that great a fit for them, they will keep you in mind and understand.
Keep a tone of forthrightness and integrity. Don't misrepresent your availability and actual ability to take a decision. There may be an offer letter, and HR paperwork associated with accepting the job. If you sign stuff, or agree to stuff, follow through. Don't accept it contingent on maybe getting a better offer, that lacks integrity.
posted by artlung at 5:06 PM on July 7, 2011 [4 favorites]
I would not accept straight up. You don't have to be the one to say "no".
You can:
-Say that you are busy on a project right now and you want to give your lawyer time to look at the offer (then follow this up with changes, the back and forth would kill a lot of time and get you better terms in the process with the ultimate in negotiating leverage which is "I don't care if you say no")
-Say that you are investigating a number of offers at the moment and that it may take some time to go through all of the processes and get the relevant offers
-Hold off on saying yes by saying that your current project is talking about keeping you on at a much higher rate and you are waiting for them.
Whatever you do, don't just say no to an offer you don't want. You can negotiate for anything. Negotiate hard enough to where they say no. You will have found their line and can make a decision then. You can negotiate for more money, a different title, a signing bonus, more paid time off... Anything! Saying no is doing their job for them!
posted by milqman at 5:11 PM on July 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
You can:
-Say that you are busy on a project right now and you want to give your lawyer time to look at the offer (then follow this up with changes, the back and forth would kill a lot of time and get you better terms in the process with the ultimate in negotiating leverage which is "I don't care if you say no")
-Say that you are investigating a number of offers at the moment and that it may take some time to go through all of the processes and get the relevant offers
-Hold off on saying yes by saying that your current project is talking about keeping you on at a much higher rate and you are waiting for them.
Whatever you do, don't just say no to an offer you don't want. You can negotiate for anything. Negotiate hard enough to where they say no. You will have found their line and can make a decision then. You can negotiate for more money, a different title, a signing bonus, more paid time off... Anything! Saying no is doing their job for them!
posted by milqman at 5:11 PM on July 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
Not sure about #1.
#2 and #3 happen all the time. It's not the greatest thing, but no one is likely to lose sleep over it (including, hopefully, you). In my experience, #2 is preferable to #3 because they don't waste time orienting you, training you, signing you up for benefits, helping you get to know colleagues and trade secrets, etc..
If you end up with #2 or #3, be professional, gracious and gently apologetic (maybe a handwritten note to your hiring manager, if appropriate, offering your apology + thanks for the opportunity + sincere hopes that your paths cross again).
I'd worry less about bridge-burning and moral/ethics if this is one of many similar openings at the firm, and worry more if it's a difficult-to-fill, one-of-a-kind, mission-critical position for them.
On preview: I like the rainydayfilms suggestion of gauging their willingness to let you delay the decision, which could be an indicator of how much in a lurch you'd put them if you end up having to bail (e.g., if the reason they're going so fast is that they need someone STAT to meet a key upcoming deadline).
posted by mauvest at 5:15 PM on July 7, 2011
#2 and #3 happen all the time. It's not the greatest thing, but no one is likely to lose sleep over it (including, hopefully, you). In my experience, #2 is preferable to #3 because they don't waste time orienting you, training you, signing you up for benefits, helping you get to know colleagues and trade secrets, etc..
If you end up with #2 or #3, be professional, gracious and gently apologetic (maybe a handwritten note to your hiring manager, if appropriate, offering your apology + thanks for the opportunity + sincere hopes that your paths cross again).
I'd worry less about bridge-burning and moral/ethics if this is one of many similar openings at the firm, and worry more if it's a difficult-to-fill, one-of-a-kind, mission-critical position for them.
On preview: I like the rainydayfilms suggestion of gauging their willingness to let you delay the decision, which could be an indicator of how much in a lurch you'd put them if you end up having to bail (e.g., if the reason they're going so fast is that they need someone STAT to meet a key upcoming deadline).
posted by mauvest at 5:15 PM on July 7, 2011
Go check out some of the previous threads on having a job offer in hand while waiting for other replies, and you'll find pretty quick from the comments that there aren't any hard and fast rules. That doesn't mean that some people don't have personal rules, or that there aren't office culture norms or manager expectations. But rules? Be polite, be professional. That's about it. You don't have to lay all your cards on the table in order to accept this job, in my opinion. If another offer comes in late and is better, well, sometimes you have to turn around and explain that something too good to refuse came up to your current company. They may not like it, but they'll deal.
The unique part of your situation is that the start date is 2 months out, though. That says to me that you should be able to push back - politely and professionally. Tell them that you appreciate how prompt they are and are very excited about the role and team, but you need to be fair to all the companies you're applying to who have a bit longer hiring process, and that you expect to make a decision by [x date]. (I'd suggest late July/early August.) This may even prompt them to come back with a higher offer.
On preview, I want to strongly contradict milqman's suggestion that you tell them you're having your lawyer look at the offer. I don't think that would be well-received: it would make your future boss nervous that you might lawyer up at the drop of a hat, and any uncertainty over how much they want you as a candidate could jeopardize later negotiations over a higher salary if you go that route. Lawyers are appropriate if you have a complex contract to look at or negotiate over language, but otherwise, I'd leave them out of the communication loop here.
posted by deludingmyself at 5:21 PM on July 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
The unique part of your situation is that the start date is 2 months out, though. That says to me that you should be able to push back - politely and professionally. Tell them that you appreciate how prompt they are and are very excited about the role and team, but you need to be fair to all the companies you're applying to who have a bit longer hiring process, and that you expect to make a decision by [x date]. (I'd suggest late July/early August.) This may even prompt them to come back with a higher offer.
On preview, I want to strongly contradict milqman's suggestion that you tell them you're having your lawyer look at the offer. I don't think that would be well-received: it would make your future boss nervous that you might lawyer up at the drop of a hat, and any uncertainty over how much they want you as a candidate could jeopardize later negotiations over a higher salary if you go that route. Lawyers are appropriate if you have a complex contract to look at or negotiate over language, but otherwise, I'd leave them out of the communication loop here.
posted by deludingmyself at 5:21 PM on July 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
2. If I accept, am I allowed to change my mind before I've actually started the job?
Depending on where you live, both the job offer and the acceptance of it can be considered legally binding on the party making the statement. Most firms aren't going to go after you for damages, but it's possible some places.
posted by Netzapper at 5:21 PM on July 7, 2011
Depending on where you live, both the job offer and the acceptance of it can be considered legally binding on the party making the statement. Most firms aren't going to go after you for damages, but it's possible some places.
posted by Netzapper at 5:21 PM on July 7, 2011
Second milqman exactly. This is great advice. When you a) know their line and b) can walk away, you're in the best possible position.
As a freelancer I used to say: Never say no, just raise your rates.
posted by LonnieK at 5:28 PM on July 7, 2011
As a freelancer I used to say: Never say no, just raise your rates.
posted by LonnieK at 5:28 PM on July 7, 2011
Response by poster: People actually think it's OK to change their minds after accepting, or quit immediately after starting? I don't know anyone who's done that, so I have a hard time believing it's normal. (I also had a previous offer retracted from me--I was pissed, and I thought that wasn't allowed, so employees must not be allowed to change their minds either.)
I should say that this offer came with a time limit: "void if you don't accept in X days" (where X is pretty small).
There's also a recruiter who has been involved in all stages of the hiring process; if I try to stall for time he will surely be pestering me to commit.
posted by Chicken Boolean at 5:48 PM on July 7, 2011
I should say that this offer came with a time limit: "void if you don't accept in X days" (where X is pretty small).
There's also a recruiter who has been involved in all stages of the hiring process; if I try to stall for time he will surely be pestering me to commit.
posted by Chicken Boolean at 5:48 PM on July 7, 2011
It is usually not a good idea to walk across a bridge and burn it behind you. Nor walk halfway across the bridge and cut it in half. It maybe OK to burn a bridge if you know you are being chased but not if you are running towards something. Playing straight up and trusting your own inner voice should help you make the right decision. I would suggest that because 'they" might do something to you does not mean it is OK to do the same to them.
posted by rmhsinc at 5:49 PM on July 7, 2011
posted by rmhsinc at 5:49 PM on July 7, 2011
I've had several short-lived coworkers who've quit their tech jobs within a week or two of starting. In those cases it seemed somewhat incourteous and unprofessional. It certainly wasted a bunch of company resources, plus the manager had to go through the hiring process again, but now the product was further behind schedule.
So my vote is definitely in the "communicate" camp. By now they presumably know you aren't available for another two months, but also tell them you won't be able to give them a decision until $(specific_date). Don't string them along or otherwise stall, tell them your timeline up front. This is the most polite and professional way to approach this, IMO.
posted by aubilenon at 6:12 PM on July 7, 2011
So my vote is definitely in the "communicate" camp. By now they presumably know you aren't available for another two months, but also tell them you won't be able to give them a decision until $(specific_date). Don't string them along or otherwise stall, tell them your timeline up front. This is the most polite and professional way to approach this, IMO.
posted by aubilenon at 6:12 PM on July 7, 2011
As someone who has worked many positions where I was told that a permanent job offer for a temp job would be coming soon, my first reaction is to take the permanent job, but give two weeks notice. This way it could lead to a smoother transition. The other option, would be to see if the current company is willing to let you work this contract position as a second job in off hours until the end of the contract.
If they tell you to just pack your desk and leave, then you know what they think of you and you did your best to be professional and courteous. In the capitalist world, you are the most important person, it doesn't matter who else you screw over to get to the top.
posted by Nackt at 6:20 PM on July 7, 2011
If they tell you to just pack your desk and leave, then you know what they think of you and you did your best to be professional and courteous. In the capitalist world, you are the most important person, it doesn't matter who else you screw over to get to the top.
posted by Nackt at 6:20 PM on July 7, 2011
I think it depends on your field. If it's small and word travels quickly, I wouldn't take a job with such a real possibility of leaving shortly thereafter. However, if it's a decently big field, and if you left you would obviously be leaving for something better, I wouldnt' worry about it too much. The fact of the matter is that very few employers, especially big ones, would hesitate to fire you if it was in their best interests. You need to do what is in your best interests, whatever that may be.
posted by craven_morhead at 6:26 PM on July 7, 2011
posted by craven_morhead at 6:26 PM on July 7, 2011
I knew a guy who was hired at my old workplace during a period where we were swamped with work due to budget reductions and getting anyone hired was like pulling teeth. He left within several days to do something else, and he was remembered with some bitterness around the office for leaving so abruptly. Several years later I encountered him at a new job (in a basically unrelated field), and though it was only embarrassing and not actually problematic for him, that was only because we happened to be peers, and I was not his supervisor. These things can stay with you. This is not in a software development context, or technology related, so perhaps the norms are different, but I would just keep in mind that these decisions may impact your reputation in ways you don't immediately foresee.
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 6:45 PM on July 7, 2011
posted by dixiecupdrinking at 6:45 PM on July 7, 2011
So one additional data point: Most places I've worked (in the software industry) that gave out referral bonuses, the bonus was contingent on the new employee staying 90 days or more. Which sort of suggests that from the employer's point of view that's the minimum amount of time they'd have someone work for them and consider it a success (or at least not a debacle).
So I'd say if you do tell them you're going to take their offer, and want to not ruffle feathers, plan to stay at least three months. Though they're probably breaking even until about 6 months, and if you want to leave without any concerns about rudeness or impropriety, or raising questions in your resume, I'd up that to a full year.
posted by aubilenon at 11:31 PM on July 7, 2011
So I'd say if you do tell them you're going to take their offer, and want to not ruffle feathers, plan to stay at least three months. Though they're probably breaking even until about 6 months, and if you want to leave without any concerns about rudeness or impropriety, or raising questions in your resume, I'd up that to a full year.
posted by aubilenon at 11:31 PM on July 7, 2011
People actually think it's OK to change their minds after accepting, or quit immediately after starting?
Employers blithely lay people off with no warning, change their minds about a position, and fire people within the probation period. Employees should feel free to do the same, albeit as politely as possible - "I'm so sorry, but this job turns out to be a very poor fit/ not as described/ why didn't you mention the horrible hours you expect?".
1. Is it totally stupid to reject an offer You just learned that your skills are immediately marketable. I don't think it's stupid to not take a job you don't need right now, and may not want.
2. If I accept, am I allowed to change my mind before I've actually started the job? It's better to avoid this.
3. If I start the job and I hate it, or I get a really great offer somewhere else, how long am I obligated to stay? If you start the job and hate it, I think it's okay to leave, esp. as your employer will feel free to fire you in the probationary period if you start the job and they hate your work. It's better to avoid this by interviewing the employer again, doing more research, and considering carefully.
In your current case, I would thank them for their interest, explain that you expect to fulfill your current commitment (look what a great employee you are!) and are unable to make a commitment to them at this time. You may want to add that you are flattered by their prompt response and offer, and will contact them/the recruiter when your current contract is complete.
posted by theora55 at 9:06 AM on July 8, 2011
Employers blithely lay people off with no warning, change their minds about a position, and fire people within the probation period. Employees should feel free to do the same, albeit as politely as possible - "I'm so sorry, but this job turns out to be a very poor fit/ not as described/ why didn't you mention the horrible hours you expect?".
1. Is it totally stupid to reject an offer You just learned that your skills are immediately marketable. I don't think it's stupid to not take a job you don't need right now, and may not want.
2. If I accept, am I allowed to change my mind before I've actually started the job? It's better to avoid this.
3. If I start the job and I hate it, or I get a really great offer somewhere else, how long am I obligated to stay? If you start the job and hate it, I think it's okay to leave, esp. as your employer will feel free to fire you in the probationary period if you start the job and they hate your work. It's better to avoid this by interviewing the employer again, doing more research, and considering carefully.
In your current case, I would thank them for their interest, explain that you expect to fulfill your current commitment (look what a great employee you are!) and are unable to make a commitment to them at this time. You may want to add that you are flattered by their prompt response and offer, and will contact them/the recruiter when your current contract is complete.
posted by theora55 at 9:06 AM on July 8, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
2- You are allowed to, but it wouldn't be the awesomest thing in the world to do.
3- No obligation there, provided you go into it with the intent to give it the ol' college try. If you go in leading them to believe you are Their Guy, but you are really just treading water, you might piss some people off. If you tell them something like "I don't know how good of a fit I will be, but I'm willing to give it a try if you are" and they are cool with that, better.
posted by gjc at 5:01 PM on July 7, 2011