Catholic Church + Jewish Music on Palm Sunday == ??
March 29, 2011 6:37 PM Subscribe
My (Roman Catholic) church choir is singing a piece with decidedly Jewish harmonies (think rowdy klezmer celebration) on Palm Sunday. Am I being overly sensitive in being offended?
I am a lifelong Catholic and am a member of our church's choir. Our liturgy is VERY mainstream American Catholic (Mass of Creation, traditional hymns, occasionally a more modern hymn, nothing too adventurous). The choir sings some Latin every now and then (mostly Taize), but we also do some things out of a Christian "praise and worship" series.
Our prelude for Palm Sunday is a piece called "Hosanna, Hosanna". It's pretty upbeat and the lyrics are about the people of Jerusalem welcoming Jesus. The harmony and musical accompaniment, though, is VERY evocative of Jewish klezmer music. (The publisher's catalog describes it as follows: "Begin your Palm Sunday service in a distinctive Jewish flair with this joyous celebration of Jesus' arrival into Jerusalem.")
The more I think about it, I'm starting to believe that the message being communicated by this particular piece has a subtle anti-Semitic undertone -- especially given the historic context of Palm Sunday pogroms. I have a nagging feeling like I am beanplating this but I am wondering there's really something to it. Hive Mind, what say you?
I am a lifelong Catholic and am a member of our church's choir. Our liturgy is VERY mainstream American Catholic (Mass of Creation, traditional hymns, occasionally a more modern hymn, nothing too adventurous). The choir sings some Latin every now and then (mostly Taize), but we also do some things out of a Christian "praise and worship" series.
Our prelude for Palm Sunday is a piece called "Hosanna, Hosanna". It's pretty upbeat and the lyrics are about the people of Jerusalem welcoming Jesus. The harmony and musical accompaniment, though, is VERY evocative of Jewish klezmer music. (The publisher's catalog describes it as follows: "Begin your Palm Sunday service in a distinctive Jewish flair with this joyous celebration of Jesus' arrival into Jerusalem.")
The more I think about it, I'm starting to believe that the message being communicated by this particular piece has a subtle anti-Semitic undertone -- especially given the historic context of Palm Sunday pogroms. I have a nagging feeling like I am beanplating this but I am wondering there's really something to it. Hive Mind, what say you?
You are beanplating. Palm Sunday takes place during Passover, I believe, or certainly right in the same time frame. Jesus was celebrating Passover during the Last Supper. It's good that your church is tying the two together, I would think.
posted by stennieville at 6:40 PM on March 29, 2011 [12 favorites]
posted by stennieville at 6:40 PM on March 29, 2011 [12 favorites]
Jesus was a Jew...
posted by cecic at 6:50 PM on March 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by cecic at 6:50 PM on March 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
I think it's great when Catholicism recognizes any influence from Judaism. The man was a Jew. Let him have his music and don't think about it so much.
posted by inturnaround at 6:54 PM on March 29, 2011
posted by inturnaround at 6:54 PM on March 29, 2011
Waaay overthinking this.
It's pretty upbeat and the lyrics are about the people of Jerusalem welcoming Jesus. Sounds pretty appropriate to this down-under Catholic.
May be better to just get into the music, and let it do its work on you and through you ...
But if you are really worried, why not have a yarn to whoever selected the piece.
posted by GeeEmm at 6:55 PM on March 29, 2011
It's pretty upbeat and the lyrics are about the people of Jerusalem welcoming Jesus. Sounds pretty appropriate to this down-under Catholic.
May be better to just get into the music, and let it do its work on you and through you ...
But if you are really worried, why not have a yarn to whoever selected the piece.
posted by GeeEmm at 6:55 PM on March 29, 2011
As a cultural jew, while i think it's sort of weird that catholic churches would even want to "begin Palm Sunday service in a distinctive Jewish flair", i'm not actually offended by it. Just perplexed.
posted by Kololo at 6:56 PM on March 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Kololo at 6:56 PM on March 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Let me clarify: This piece is the ONLY piece that we have sung in the 2+ years I've been with the church that is evocative of Jewish music.
The Palm Sunday service starts with readings about Jesus' triumphal entrance into Jerusalem. The reading is the Passion narrative (describing Jesus' crucifixion).
Evoking Jewish music on Palm Sunday is, in my perhaps-beanplating mind, a subtle hint that "the Jews killed Jesus". Catholic doctrine rejects the notion that the Jewish people bear responsibility for the death of Jesus; Paragraph 597 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, quoting the Second Vatican Council, says, "[N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture."
I'm not suggesting that the music is an indictment of any sort, but reminding the congregation -- musically -- that "the Jews" welcomed Jesus into Jerusalem is one step away from saying that "the Jews killed Jesus" shortly thereafter.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 6:56 PM on March 29, 2011
The Palm Sunday service starts with readings about Jesus' triumphal entrance into Jerusalem. The reading is the Passion narrative (describing Jesus' crucifixion).
Evoking Jewish music on Palm Sunday is, in my perhaps-beanplating mind, a subtle hint that "the Jews killed Jesus". Catholic doctrine rejects the notion that the Jewish people bear responsibility for the death of Jesus; Paragraph 597 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, quoting the Second Vatican Council, says, "[N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture."
I'm not suggesting that the music is an indictment of any sort, but reminding the congregation -- musically -- that "the Jews" welcomed Jesus into Jerusalem is one step away from saying that "the Jews killed Jesus" shortly thereafter.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 6:56 PM on March 29, 2011
Evoking Jewish music on Palm Sunday is, in my perhaps-beanplating mind, a subtle hint that "the Jews killed Jesus".
Too subtle for me. You're overthinking it.
posted by carsonb at 6:59 PM on March 29, 2011 [10 favorites]
Too subtle for me. You're overthinking it.
posted by carsonb at 6:59 PM on March 29, 2011 [10 favorites]
Sounds kinda naff, but unless it's highly exaggerated or a ridiculous parody of Jewish music, I struggle to see the offense. What is the publisher's background? Good faith doesn't always equal good taste.
posted by Jehan at 7:09 PM on March 29, 2011
posted by Jehan at 7:09 PM on March 29, 2011
I think the operative descriptor you're looking for is "poor taste."
posted by Mchelly at 7:16 PM on March 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 7:16 PM on March 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Beanplating. My Catholic choir has done this same piece for the last two years (doing something different this year) and I've never even considered this issue. There's so much imitation in music - heck, at Christmas we do a piece in Tagalog that reminds me of nothing more than the Hora - I think you're looking for insult where there is only flattery to be found.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 7:17 PM on March 29, 2011
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 7:17 PM on March 29, 2011
Evoking Jewish music on Palm Sunday is, in my perhaps-beanplating mind, a subtle hint that "the Jews killed Jesus".
Hell no. If anything, it's an subtle and entirely appropriate nod to the Jewish roots of Christianity.
posted by valkyryn at 7:20 PM on March 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
Hell no. If anything, it's an subtle and entirely appropriate nod to the Jewish roots of Christianity.
posted by valkyryn at 7:20 PM on March 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
('Nother cultural Jew here, if it counts.)
but reminding the congregation -- musically -- that "the Jews" welcomed Jesus into Jerusalem is one step away from saying that "the Jews killed Jesus" shortly thereafter.
Uh . . . no.
Beanplating.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:20 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
but reminding the congregation -- musically -- that "the Jews" welcomed Jesus into Jerusalem is one step away from saying that "the Jews killed Jesus" shortly thereafter.
Uh . . . no.
Beanplating.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:20 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
FWIW, I was offended by the Catholic Seder thing, and I am not offended by this. I think it's just...hey, we have good music. (Though I don't exactly associate Jesus with Klezmer!)
But you know, even if you're overthinking this particular thing, I find it really nice that someone who doesn't have to think about anti-Semitism is thinking about it at all. It sounds like if a serious non-beanplate-y incident of prejudice arose, you'd be against it, and that's comforting to me. I hope that makes sense.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 7:21 PM on March 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
But you know, even if you're overthinking this particular thing, I find it really nice that someone who doesn't have to think about anti-Semitism is thinking about it at all. It sounds like if a serious non-beanplate-y incident of prejudice arose, you'd be against it, and that's comforting to me. I hope that makes sense.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 7:21 PM on March 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
Evoking Jewish music on Palm Sunday is, in my perhaps-beanplating mind, a subtle hint that "the Jews killed Jesus".Huh. I'm probably just a really naive Jewish person, but it would never in a million years have occurred to me to take it that way. If they meant it that way, it's fucked up. But are you sure it isn't just some sort of vague "Jesus was Jewish and we think that's really cool and interesting!" thing?
Unless it is somehow saying that "the Jews" killed Jesus, it doesn't bother me at all. It bothers me a lot less than the whole "Christian seder" thing, actually. Klezmer isn't really a religious thing, and it grew out of a lot of cultural exchange with non-Jews. If people want to borrow it, they can knock themselves out, as far as I'm concerned.
posted by craichead at 7:22 PM on March 29, 2011
So basically, you don't want this to be the equivalent of black-face minstrelsy?
posted by orthogonality at 7:34 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by orthogonality at 7:34 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I was thinking you were saying that the Klezmer's raucous nature would be inappropriate somehow. My reply to that is I loved the Mariachis at the Catholic Church I attended a few years ago when I was less-lapsed as a Catholic. Super-enthusiastic stuff. I would love to hear their take on some Klezmer!
If your congregation tends toward anti-semitism, then maybe you're seeing that externalized into the musical choice? But the congregations I've been part of (California, Virginia) I never detected any of the kind of anti-semitism that would be part of that.
It's interesting to me that Klezmer may actually be old enough of a form that you're not engaging in, like parody or satire or anything... [on preview] or anything like minstrel / caricature.
But to me it sounds like you have a musical director who is trying to make the celebration a bit more celebratory with a really cool musical form.
posted by artlung at 7:43 PM on March 29, 2011
If your congregation tends toward anti-semitism, then maybe you're seeing that externalized into the musical choice? But the congregations I've been part of (California, Virginia) I never detected any of the kind of anti-semitism that would be part of that.
It's interesting to me that Klezmer may actually be old enough of a form that you're not engaging in, like parody or satire or anything... [on preview] or anything like minstrel / caricature.
But to me it sounds like you have a musical director who is trying to make the celebration a bit more celebratory with a really cool musical form.
posted by artlung at 7:43 PM on March 29, 2011
Response by poster: I guess I need to provide a little more context in defense of my beanplating.
Jesus' entry into Jerusalem commemorated at the start of the Palm Sunday service is a triumphal entry. In his entry to Jersualem, Jesus is accepted by the crowd as a prophet -- Matthew 21:8-11.
Five days later, "the people" are calling for Jesus' crucifixion. Matthew 27:22-23. In the Roman Catholic Palm Sunday service, the passion narrative is read, and in many churches the congregation proclaims "Crucify him" (along with other spoken parts for the crowd).
One of the lines from the crowd -- which is part of the Palm Sunday reading, is Matthew 27:25 -- "And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!". This passage was interpreted by scholars in the Middle Ages that the Jewish people were guilty in the eyes of God for Jesus' murder, and provided an excuse for anti-Semitic violence. As I mentioned upthread, that interpretation has no place whatsoever in the teachings of the modern church.
My concern, though, is that the close musical association of the crowd's Jewishness, evoked ten minutes before a passion narrative that includes Matthew 27:25, is both crass and insensitive.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 7:46 PM on March 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Jesus' entry into Jerusalem commemorated at the start of the Palm Sunday service is a triumphal entry. In his entry to Jersualem, Jesus is accepted by the crowd as a prophet -- Matthew 21:8-11.
Five days later, "the people" are calling for Jesus' crucifixion. Matthew 27:22-23. In the Roman Catholic Palm Sunday service, the passion narrative is read, and in many churches the congregation proclaims "Crucify him" (along with other spoken parts for the crowd).
One of the lines from the crowd -- which is part of the Palm Sunday reading, is Matthew 27:25 -- "And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!". This passage was interpreted by scholars in the Middle Ages that the Jewish people were guilty in the eyes of God for Jesus' murder, and provided an excuse for anti-Semitic violence. As I mentioned upthread, that interpretation has no place whatsoever in the teachings of the modern church.
My concern, though, is that the close musical association of the crowd's Jewishness, evoked ten minutes before a passion narrative that includes Matthew 27:25, is both crass and insensitive.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 7:46 PM on March 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Evoking Jewish music on Palm Sunday is, in my perhaps-beanplating mind, a subtle hint that "the Jews killed Jesus".
This is silly. First, this meme is just not a thing floating around Catholocism in the heads of anyone other than Mel Gibson. I spent 15 years in Catholic schools and never heard of this idea until it came from Mel Gibson, so there just isn't a meme around to be alluded to.
Second, I think it's the opposite. It's a subtle hint that jews sang Hosanna upon Jesus' entry into Jerusalem. It's likely that they sang it in some Jewish sounding way, since they were Jewish and all. Maybe not this particular Jewish sounding way, but if you're not a musicologist specializing in Jewish music, any kind of traditionally Jewish sound is likely to be a reminder that it was Jews who welcome Jesus to Jerusalem with their Hosannas.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:48 PM on March 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
This is silly. First, this meme is just not a thing floating around Catholocism in the heads of anyone other than Mel Gibson. I spent 15 years in Catholic schools and never heard of this idea until it came from Mel Gibson, so there just isn't a meme around to be alluded to.
Second, I think it's the opposite. It's a subtle hint that jews sang Hosanna upon Jesus' entry into Jerusalem. It's likely that they sang it in some Jewish sounding way, since they were Jewish and all. Maybe not this particular Jewish sounding way, but if you're not a musicologist specializing in Jewish music, any kind of traditionally Jewish sound is likely to be a reminder that it was Jews who welcome Jesus to Jerusalem with their Hosannas.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:48 PM on March 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Beanplating. Overthinking. I'm sure the congregation will like hearing something new and different.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:48 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:48 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Huh. I love singing this song as a Catholic, and always just thought it was a very appropriate nod to the fact that Christ was a Jew, and the roots of Catholicism are firmly in Judaism. I think it would be odder to not acknowledge this fact.
Even with your clarifications, I certainly do not think your parish or choir is deliberately being offensive.
posted by questionsandanchors at 7:48 PM on March 29, 2011
Even with your clarifications, I certainly do not think your parish or choir is deliberately being offensive.
posted by questionsandanchors at 7:48 PM on March 29, 2011
I'm inclined to think you're right about the undertone of antisemitism here.
I've wondered for years whether the tradition of an Easter ham was designed to point to the inauthentic conversions among Jews forced to renounce their faith by the Inquisition, but the best a few minutes Googling was able to provide was a blog post without citations:
I have read food historians who believe that Spain changed the traditional Easter dinner from lamb to ham to ensure that Conversos, as the baptized but unbelieving Jews were known, were following the laws of their new faith, If the Jews would eat pork, surely they had given up the ways of their fathers.
I wish that I too could claim to have read the elusive works of these so interesting sounding food historians, but no such luck so far.
It might be nice to know the name of the composer or composers of the piece to help investigate motive, but even the little blurb you quote seems more than a little incriminating to me. It does seem to continue the motif of conversion of the Jews.
Oh well, we're having lamb as we always do.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
posted by jamjam at 7:50 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've wondered for years whether the tradition of an Easter ham was designed to point to the inauthentic conversions among Jews forced to renounce their faith by the Inquisition, but the best a few minutes Googling was able to provide was a blog post without citations:
I have read food historians who believe that Spain changed the traditional Easter dinner from lamb to ham to ensure that Conversos, as the baptized but unbelieving Jews were known, were following the laws of their new faith, If the Jews would eat pork, surely they had given up the ways of their fathers.
I wish that I too could claim to have read the elusive works of these so interesting sounding food historians, but no such luck so far.
It might be nice to know the name of the composer or composers of the piece to help investigate motive, but even the little blurb you quote seems more than a little incriminating to me. It does seem to continue the motif of conversion of the Jews.
Oh well, we're having lamb as we always do.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
posted by jamjam at 7:50 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'd be a little weirded out myself for the reasons you mentioned. The idea that the Jews killed Jesus and their acceptance of blood guilt is something that I've run into with my family, who have never to my knowledge even seen a Jewish person.
It's possible that someone who had no context whatsoever just thought it was a cute sound, and I am second to none in my appreciation for klezmer, but it's a bit tone-deaf.
posted by winna at 7:55 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's possible that someone who had no context whatsoever just thought it was a cute sound, and I am second to none in my appreciation for klezmer, but it's a bit tone-deaf.
posted by winna at 7:55 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Pope John Paul II referred to Jews as "our elder brothers in faith." Obviously, Christianity has a complex relationship with Judaism, but I'd see this as honoring the positive aspects of that relationship.
One of the lines from the crowd -- which is part of the Palm Sunday reading, is Matthew 27:25 -- "And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!". This passage was interpreted by scholars in the Middle Ages..."
...five hundred years ago. Today, it is interpreted as complicity of all Christians in Jesus' death, inasmuch as they are all sinners and all needful of redemption via Christ's sacrifice.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:01 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
One of the lines from the crowd -- which is part of the Palm Sunday reading, is Matthew 27:25 -- "And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!". This passage was interpreted by scholars in the Middle Ages..."
...five hundred years ago. Today, it is interpreted as complicity of all Christians in Jesus' death, inasmuch as they are all sinners and all needful of redemption via Christ's sacrifice.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:01 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Any music that makes you feel joy is good, as far as I'm concerned.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 8:07 PM on March 29, 2011
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 8:07 PM on March 29, 2011
Suggestion: Ask why the choice of Klezmer. You are in the choir, mention it. Maybe suggest even more Klezmer!
Datapoints: alternative explanation for pork at Easter, Official Church Teaching remains, since 1965, Jews did not kill Jesus. I always got that we're all part of that crowd, thus we all as a congregation say "Crucify him!" as part of the Passion. We all screwed up lost sight of the teachings. And those darn Romans were indifferent but carried out our bidding anyway. As I think about it, I start to think of how that message has informed me as a citizen - be vigilant of your leaders, for they are idiots and will follow the crowd, so smarten up and vote. Huh.
posted by artlung at 8:07 PM on March 29, 2011
Datapoints: alternative explanation for pork at Easter, Official Church Teaching remains, since 1965, Jews did not kill Jesus. I always got that we're all part of that crowd, thus we all as a congregation say "Crucify him!" as part of the Passion. We all screwed up lost sight of the teachings. And those darn Romans were indifferent but carried out our bidding anyway. As I think about it, I start to think of how that message has informed me as a citizen - be vigilant of your leaders, for they are idiots and will follow the crowd, so smarten up and vote. Huh.
posted by artlung at 8:07 PM on March 29, 2011
Jewishness is part of our Christian heritage. Music with a Jewish 'flavor' is a way of celebrating that, just as singing folk songs is a way of celebrating the heritage of our physical ancestors.
The participation of the congregation shoutiing "crucify him, crucify him!" is an acknowledgement of our collective guilt in the crucifixion. Jesus was betrayed by his own people. We are his people, we are the guilty that he saves.
So get your Jew on and enjoy the music.
posted by SLC Mom at 8:08 PM on March 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
The participation of the congregation shoutiing "crucify him, crucify him!" is an acknowledgement of our collective guilt in the crucifixion. Jesus was betrayed by his own people. We are his people, we are the guilty that he saves.
So get your Jew on and enjoy the music.
posted by SLC Mom at 8:08 PM on March 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
Today, it is interpreted as complicity of all Christians in Jesus' death, inasmuch as they are all sinners and all needful of redemption via Christ's sacrifice.
Agreed. For me, this is one this most powerful parts of the long Palm Sunday passion reading - the entire congregation speaking those words aloud while playing the role of the crowd. It's both a moment of horror (we are all of us as sinners complicit in the death of Christ) and truly redemptive (Christ's blood being used as symbol of forgiveness, and the congregation calling that redemption upon themselves even if they don't truly know what they're asking for). I always get little shivers at that point. It's one of my favorite parts of the service.
QuantumMeruit, I think it's good to be mindful of the Church's past history with antisemitism while still acknowledging how that narrative on this day (made up of Jewish individuals celebrating a Jewish festival) can be explored and celebrated through music.
posted by Salieri at 8:10 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Agreed. For me, this is one this most powerful parts of the long Palm Sunday passion reading - the entire congregation speaking those words aloud while playing the role of the crowd. It's both a moment of horror (we are all of us as sinners complicit in the death of Christ) and truly redemptive (Christ's blood being used as symbol of forgiveness, and the congregation calling that redemption upon themselves even if they don't truly know what they're asking for). I always get little shivers at that point. It's one of my favorite parts of the service.
QuantumMeruit, I think it's good to be mindful of the Church's past history with antisemitism while still acknowledging how that narrative on this day (made up of Jewish individuals celebrating a Jewish festival) can be explored and celebrated through music.
posted by Salieri at 8:10 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Severely lapsed Jew here, but this is so interesting. Surely you can't be the only person who feels a bit oddly about this? If you don't mind, why are you asking? Are you considering asking them to change their choice of music, or sitting out in protest if you become convinced that it is indeed anti-Semitic?
My guess would be that if it is a moderately common phenomena (as some answers here seem to suggest), then at some point way back when it probably was anti-Semitic, even if just a teeny bit, maybe even unconsciously (just my personal guess!). But I wouldn't be surprised if people just didn't think about it that way anymore. Whether that is because they just don't think critically, or if they are aware of the past connotation and feel they have gotten past it, is another question. If you ask to discuss it I bet you'd have a very interesting conversation, whichever way it shapes out.
Also, do you really do this--
in many churches the congregation proclaims "Crucify him"
So strange. No offense intended. ;)
posted by Glinn at 8:23 PM on March 29, 2011
My guess would be that if it is a moderately common phenomena (as some answers here seem to suggest), then at some point way back when it probably was anti-Semitic, even if just a teeny bit, maybe even unconsciously (just my personal guess!). But I wouldn't be surprised if people just didn't think about it that way anymore. Whether that is because they just don't think critically, or if they are aware of the past connotation and feel they have gotten past it, is another question. If you ask to discuss it I bet you'd have a very interesting conversation, whichever way it shapes out.
Also, do you really do this--
in many churches the congregation proclaims "Crucify him"
So strange. No offense intended. ;)
posted by Glinn at 8:23 PM on March 29, 2011
To me, it sounds more like modern "big tent" religious thought, where people who come together in worship or community recognize similarities. If anything, it's a subtle wink to the institutional nature of Catholicism and Judaism and a variation that challenges the tedious nature of ritual.
Then again, I'm an atheist who is always surprised by the self-realization that some religious institutions are wise enough to acknowledge, so I might be over-reading into the situation. Unless you're in some odd backwater, I really doubt there's religious offense brewing.
posted by mikeh at 8:29 PM on March 29, 2011
Then again, I'm an atheist who is always surprised by the self-realization that some religious institutions are wise enough to acknowledge, so I might be over-reading into the situation. Unless you're in some odd backwater, I really doubt there's religious offense brewing.
posted by mikeh at 8:29 PM on March 29, 2011
I too was offended by the Catholic seder question from a few days ago, but this is just... odd, not offensive. I decidedly do not agree with some posters above that the "Jews killed Jesus" meme is no longer a Thing; but this music doesn't seem to point in that direction. If I wanted to be offended here, I'd be offended at the co-opting of a Jewish cultural achievement in support of a doctrine fundamentally opposed to Jewish religion, but I don't smell blood libel.
I do appreciate your sensitivity thought, very much. I wish more people stopped to think about what they're doing before they borrow other culture's trappings.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:35 PM on March 29, 2011
I do appreciate your sensitivity thought, very much. I wish more people stopped to think about what they're doing before they borrow other culture's trappings.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:35 PM on March 29, 2011
Seriously, this is beanplating.
I was raised Catholic, I now live in Brooklyn about 3 minutes' walk from a Hasidic neighborhood. I get what you're saying about the old hearsay about "omg the Jews killed Jesus", but at the same time you also acknowledge the Catechism expressly rejects this accusation. So I don't see the use of a "klezmer song" as any sort of, "don't forget what the Jews did..." rather I see it as more of an embrace of Judaism -- "no, seriously, DO NOT BLAME JEWS for this. The Jews are cool, get it?"
Incorporating a Jewish-flavored song strikes me as a POSITIVE gesture, in other words, and I think it's far-fetched to attribute a NEGATIVE motive to it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:46 PM on March 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
I was raised Catholic, I now live in Brooklyn about 3 minutes' walk from a Hasidic neighborhood. I get what you're saying about the old hearsay about "omg the Jews killed Jesus", but at the same time you also acknowledge the Catechism expressly rejects this accusation. So I don't see the use of a "klezmer song" as any sort of, "don't forget what the Jews did..." rather I see it as more of an embrace of Judaism -- "no, seriously, DO NOT BLAME JEWS for this. The Jews are cool, get it?"
Incorporating a Jewish-flavored song strikes me as a POSITIVE gesture, in other words, and I think it's far-fetched to attribute a NEGATIVE motive to it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:46 PM on March 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
In the Methodist Church in which I was raised, a klezmertastic Palm Sunday anthem would have been totally and enthusiastically received. But we had a great affection for the singing (hokey but fun and reverent, even better!) and did a fair amount of nodding to Jewish culture.
I think the thing that sticks out is not the Jewishness per se, but that this is outside of the expected repertoire. Any Jews who happen to attend that Mass might feel a little weird about it*, but I don't see how the congregation would necessarily leap to it being anti-Semitic, even if they find it a bit risque. More likely that they'd pat themselves on the back for being inclusive, no?
*I'm not being sarcastic, I'm remembering how often I went to other churches as an adolescent after sleepovers with friends.
posted by desuetude at 8:54 PM on March 29, 2011
I think the thing that sticks out is not the Jewishness per se, but that this is outside of the expected repertoire. Any Jews who happen to attend that Mass might feel a little weird about it*, but I don't see how the congregation would necessarily leap to it being anti-Semitic, even if they find it a bit risque. More likely that they'd pat themselves on the back for being inclusive, no?
*I'm not being sarcastic, I'm remembering how often I went to other churches as an adolescent after sleepovers with friends.
posted by desuetude at 8:54 PM on March 29, 2011
This is a pretty good homily on this, it addresses the question of who killed Jesus--at least how I was taught. We are all complicit.
And fingersandtoes, I would never deny the "Jews Killed Jesus" meme is not "a thing" - if in my own words I gave that impression - let me correct it -- I'm aware of the off-color jokes and Mel Gibson, and as a person who grew up Catholic it was always mentioned, and mentioned strongly as incorrect and a part of the cause of a lot of suffering for Jewish people through history (see also: Holocaust). The homily I link to mentions it head on:
posted by artlung at 9:00 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
And fingersandtoes, I would never deny the "Jews Killed Jesus" meme is not "a thing" - if in my own words I gave that impression - let me correct it -- I'm aware of the off-color jokes and Mel Gibson, and as a person who grew up Catholic it was always mentioned, and mentioned strongly as incorrect and a part of the cause of a lot of suffering for Jewish people through history (see also: Holocaust). The homily I link to mentions it head on:
There have been great debates through the centuries about who ultimately was responsible for the death of the Lord. Some said the Jews. Some said the Romans. Some said both. But the Second Vatican Council, clearly basing herself on the traditional understanding from St. Paul’s letters and the earliest teachings of the Church, taught that—even though the sinful deeds of the Jewish leaders and Roman authorities clearly played a part—ALL OF US killed Jesus by our sins. Jesus died for our sins. Thus, if we’re really going to understand what the terrible consequences of our sins have had, and if we’re ever going to be able to experience the extraordinary joy of Easter that saved us from those sins, we need to enter into these events and recognize that we betrayed the Lord, that we killed Him.
posted by artlung at 9:00 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I guess I need to provide a little more context in defense of my beanplating.
Er, that's just more beanplating isn't it? Stop it! Sing to your God!
posted by carsonb at 9:03 PM on March 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
Er, that's just more beanplating isn't it? Stop it! Sing to your God!
posted by carsonb at 9:03 PM on March 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
As others have said, I don't think you need to be too worried about this being anti-semitic in any serious sense, nor that it's really offensive or deeply insensitive. But I do think, based on your description, that you may well be right to find it in poor taste. It doesn't have to be the blood libel for it to be a little off-putting that a musical style is being used as a shorthand for Jewishness. What you describe seems something like the Asian Riff, a form of musical stereotyping that, even if used in perfect good humor, could still be seen as bordering on poor taste. Still, your worries about any serious offensiveness here are very likely overstated, unless you actually know that there are anti-semites in your congregation who will perceive the piece the way you describe (an interpretation that seems very far from the way any mainstream contemporary Catholic would be likely to take it).
posted by RogerB at 9:04 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by RogerB at 9:04 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
You're talking about people inferring all this just because of the style of your harmonies? You are overestimating how much attention people will be paying, and what they'll be paying attention to.
posted by hermitosis at 9:08 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by hermitosis at 9:08 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
As a girl raised by very catholic parents but being very aware of the similarities of most religions and agnostic as a result, I say puh-leez give up your beanplating ways. He was jewish, living in a jewish country, the people there were jewish, so the fact the people who killed jesus were jews is kind of besides the point. They were just people.
My choir was singing a jamaican tune, and we're all white, most of them little old ladies. Not one is black. I felt that was kind of weird at first, maybe not totally cool, but the director simply said "isn't this a pretty tune? so light and festive! and evokes a feeling of the warm ocean breeze :) perfect for a spring concert." And she's right. It's a song for people to enjoy. People like to sing in church. Props to them for experimenting a little and making it interesting!
posted by lizbunny at 9:15 PM on March 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
My choir was singing a jamaican tune, and we're all white, most of them little old ladies. Not one is black. I felt that was kind of weird at first, maybe not totally cool, but the director simply said "isn't this a pretty tune? so light and festive! and evokes a feeling of the warm ocean breeze :) perfect for a spring concert." And she's right. It's a song for people to enjoy. People like to sing in church. Props to them for experimenting a little and making it interesting!
posted by lizbunny at 9:15 PM on March 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
If it's this, with the preceding bit, yeah, that could be problematic.
Pretty much anything else? Meh.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:17 PM on March 29, 2011
Pretty much anything else? Meh.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:17 PM on March 29, 2011
You could always substitute with that Lenten warhorse, "The King of Glory" (as popularized by noted Catholic Sunday School teacher Dr. Stephen Colbert, D.M.A.).
posted by Ranucci at 9:25 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Ranucci at 9:25 PM on March 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Okay, maybe I'm the only person here who understands your concerns. Beanplating or not, it would bother me too. I love klezmer music but one small nod to Jesus' Jewishness on a highly emotional day of the liturgical year (Palm/Passion Sunday combined) is not the place for this.
I threw a fit one year when the organist thought it would be a great idea to use a Hanukkah menorah for the Tenebrae service on Good Friday--and with each reading from John's passion narrative, betrayal, crown of thorns, flogging, crucifixion--extinguish one candle until the church was in darkness.
Now there's a fine symbol of replacement theology for you. (A menorah was not used as the candelabra that day.)
There is a lot of problematic Christian history in regards to Holy Week liturgy. I highly recommended this book by Dr. Amy-Jill Levine, a Jewish professor of New Testament at Vanderbilt: The Misunderstood Jew: the Church and the Scandal of the Jewish Jesus.
posted by apartment dweller at 9:40 PM on March 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
I threw a fit one year when the organist thought it would be a great idea to use a Hanukkah menorah for the Tenebrae service on Good Friday--and with each reading from John's passion narrative, betrayal, crown of thorns, flogging, crucifixion--extinguish one candle until the church was in darkness.
Now there's a fine symbol of replacement theology for you. (A menorah was not used as the candelabra that day.)
There is a lot of problematic Christian history in regards to Holy Week liturgy. I highly recommended this book by Dr. Amy-Jill Levine, a Jewish professor of New Testament at Vanderbilt: The Misunderstood Jew: the Church and the Scandal of the Jewish Jesus.
posted by apartment dweller at 9:40 PM on March 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Do you feel odd that the host is actually matzah? And what about the Last Supper being a sedar? Or the Stars of David many churches have? Jesus was a Jew. He went in to Jerusalem on Palm Sunday as a Jew and was joyously greeted by other Jews. It is ok to joyously acknowledge the Jewish roots of Christianity. I wish people would do it more often, it would have saved a lot of heartache and pain for many people over the last 2000 years (not to mention lives).
As for using a menorah as a candelabra, that is wrong wrong wrong. Absolutely terrible and ignorant.
posted by wandering_not_lost at 10:34 PM on March 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
As for using a menorah as a candelabra, that is wrong wrong wrong. Absolutely terrible and ignorant.
posted by wandering_not_lost at 10:34 PM on March 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
@Glinn - it's great, isn't it? Listening to Bach's John or Matthew passion really brings out the flavours, so to speak, of this drama.
Since "All sinners were the authors of Christ's Passion" it's theologically appropriate that we Catholic sinners identify with the baying mob (which BXVI suggests may have been made up mainly of Barabbas' political supporters) - who certainly are not representative of all Jews, then or now.
As for the Klezmer music - it's been quite popular in Catholic and other Christian liturgy for many decades now. Perhaps the upbeat overtones don't really fit with Palm Sunday (it's debatable), but the Jewishness does. Otherwise, what, remove all the Old Testament references too?!
posted by KMH at 2:26 AM on March 30, 2011
Since "All sinners were the authors of Christ's Passion" it's theologically appropriate that we Catholic sinners identify with the baying mob (which BXVI suggests may have been made up mainly of Barabbas' political supporters) - who certainly are not representative of all Jews, then or now.
As for the Klezmer music - it's been quite popular in Catholic and other Christian liturgy for many decades now. Perhaps the upbeat overtones don't really fit with Palm Sunday (it's debatable), but the Jewishness does. Otherwise, what, remove all the Old Testament references too?!
posted by KMH at 2:26 AM on March 30, 2011
Otherwise, what, remove all the Old Testament references too?You know, I really hate the idea that because Christianity co-opted Jewish sacred scriptures, you've got some sort of divine right to co-opt every other thing that Jewish people have ever created.
Klezmer doesn't have any particular religious significance to Jews, and if other people like it and want to play it, they don't have to worry about insulting someone's sacred symbol. I'm not even sure I think that Jews have sole proprietorship of klezmer: as I understand it, there was a lot of cross-pollination between Jewish music and Roma music, for instance, and a lot of borrowing melodies and styes from non-Jewish folk and popular music. Jewish klezmer musicians were often hired to play music for their non-Jewish neighbors' weddings and things. Klezmer is a product of cultural exchange, and if non-Jews like it and want to use it for their own purposes, I think that's awesome and kind of in the spirit of the music's origins. But that's not the same as saying that Christians are entitled to anything that's Jewish, just because they stole our scriptures, declared us obsolete, and spent the next two thousand years persecuting us.
posted by craichead at 3:42 AM on March 30, 2011 [7 favorites]
It's not the sort of thing which I would find offensive, but I'm a bit surprised that you guys aren't more into the Catholic music tradition.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:25 AM on March 30, 2011
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:25 AM on March 30, 2011
Catholic married to a Jew here, also choir member, I see nothing wrong with this music at all. It might even be an antidote to the miserable hymn "Jerusalem my Destiny" that we are forced to sing every Sunday in Lent.
posted by mermayd at 5:02 AM on March 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by mermayd at 5:02 AM on March 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Adding to the (MeFi) choir that it's not offensive to me as a Jew, but it's kind of in poor taste.
I think intentions are good though, if your church is very traditional and looking for ways to shake things up a bit for younger Catholics - who they are very keen on keeping in the church. If you're concerned about the timing of this piece, and hold some concerns, you can talk to the priest about them. After all, that's what he's there for, right?
posted by juniperesque at 6:00 AM on March 30, 2011
I think intentions are good though, if your church is very traditional and looking for ways to shake things up a bit for younger Catholics - who they are very keen on keeping in the church. If you're concerned about the timing of this piece, and hold some concerns, you can talk to the priest about them. After all, that's what he's there for, right?
posted by juniperesque at 6:00 AM on March 30, 2011
Response by poster: Hey, all. Thanks for an enlightening discussion. It’s really helped me better articulate my concerns, and has helped me better appreciate that the issue which I am concerned about is a pretty subtle point -- perhaps subtle to the point of beanplating incomprehensibility.
By way of response to some of the discussion, I am NOT offended in the least by quoting, appropriating or otherwise invoking Jesus’ Jewishness. I personally think that modern Christians should be MORE aware of the Jewish roots of our faith traditions, and I’ve always believed that an appreciation of Judaism is crucial to understanding Christianity in the proper context (historically and otherwise). (Indeed, the Eucharistic Prayer said at every Catholic Mass has its roots in the Jewish berakah and was recognizable as such by one of my Jewish friends attending a Catholic wedding.)
What causes me concern -- and which I admittedly did a poor job of expressing in my original question here -- is that in my church, the only evocation of “Jewishness” (musically or otherwise) is occurring in the Palm Sunday prelude. When viewed in isolation, I think the music is fine (albeit cheesy). My concern is that the evocation of “Jewishness” is occurring 10 minutes before a reading that includes Matthew 27:25, and that when viewed in the historical context of misinterpretations of that passage, it has a subtle (and unwelcome) effect.
The readings of the Passion, during which the church congregation one minute takes the part of the crowd welcoming Jesus into Jerusalem and then a few minutes later proclaims “crucify him” is often preached as showing the fickleness of our own human nature. Among other things, it invites us to reflect on how we (as Christians) can outwardly proclaim our acceptance of Jesus’ teachings one day, yet act contrary to those teachings the next. The Passion readings strongly invite the congregation to accept that the crowd that welcomed Jesus into Jerusalem was the same crowd that, days later, called for his death and accepted responsibility for his blood.
(A close reading / historical analysis of scripture can suggest that the crowd was NOT the same, but that’s not the point, since the Passion is so often preached to accept the crowd being the same.)
I hear the message of the selected music as saying that the crowd welcoming Jesus into Jerusalem was a crowd made up of Jews. The musical selection thus also invites the association that the crowd which called for Jesus’ death was also made up of Jews. The Palm Sunday liturgy juxtaposes these two crowds over the course of about 10 minutes.
When the congregation’s only exposure to “Jewish” music occurs in this context, my concern is that it creates an unwelcome subconscious association consistent with the historical misinterpretations of Matthew 27:25. My concern is that in that context, those misinterpretations are closely associated with accusations of blood libel and other anti-Semitic action, something that is soundly rejected by the Church. The discussion here shows me that this context is certainly not evident on its face.
I agree that the fact that it takes me several paragraphs to explain my concern affirms that I’m beanplating over a musical choice that I now see is, at worst, tone-deaf and in bad taste.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 6:18 AM on March 30, 2011 [3 favorites]
By way of response to some of the discussion, I am NOT offended in the least by quoting, appropriating or otherwise invoking Jesus’ Jewishness. I personally think that modern Christians should be MORE aware of the Jewish roots of our faith traditions, and I’ve always believed that an appreciation of Judaism is crucial to understanding Christianity in the proper context (historically and otherwise). (Indeed, the Eucharistic Prayer said at every Catholic Mass has its roots in the Jewish berakah and was recognizable as such by one of my Jewish friends attending a Catholic wedding.)
What causes me concern -- and which I admittedly did a poor job of expressing in my original question here -- is that in my church, the only evocation of “Jewishness” (musically or otherwise) is occurring in the Palm Sunday prelude. When viewed in isolation, I think the music is fine (albeit cheesy). My concern is that the evocation of “Jewishness” is occurring 10 minutes before a reading that includes Matthew 27:25, and that when viewed in the historical context of misinterpretations of that passage, it has a subtle (and unwelcome) effect.
The readings of the Passion, during which the church congregation one minute takes the part of the crowd welcoming Jesus into Jerusalem and then a few minutes later proclaims “crucify him” is often preached as showing the fickleness of our own human nature. Among other things, it invites us to reflect on how we (as Christians) can outwardly proclaim our acceptance of Jesus’ teachings one day, yet act contrary to those teachings the next. The Passion readings strongly invite the congregation to accept that the crowd that welcomed Jesus into Jerusalem was the same crowd that, days later, called for his death and accepted responsibility for his blood.
(A close reading / historical analysis of scripture can suggest that the crowd was NOT the same, but that’s not the point, since the Passion is so often preached to accept the crowd being the same.)
I hear the message of the selected music as saying that the crowd welcoming Jesus into Jerusalem was a crowd made up of Jews. The musical selection thus also invites the association that the crowd which called for Jesus’ death was also made up of Jews. The Palm Sunday liturgy juxtaposes these two crowds over the course of about 10 minutes.
When the congregation’s only exposure to “Jewish” music occurs in this context, my concern is that it creates an unwelcome subconscious association consistent with the historical misinterpretations of Matthew 27:25. My concern is that in that context, those misinterpretations are closely associated with accusations of blood libel and other anti-Semitic action, something that is soundly rejected by the Church. The discussion here shows me that this context is certainly not evident on its face.
I agree that the fact that it takes me several paragraphs to explain my concern affirms that I’m beanplating over a musical choice that I now see is, at worst, tone-deaf and in bad taste.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 6:18 AM on March 30, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think
Let me clarify: This piece is the ONLY piece that we have sung in the 2+ years I've been with the church that is evocative of Jewish music.
Gregorian chant, the official music of the Roman Rite liturgy, is a musical descendent of the music of the temple and synagogue music.
posted by Jahaza at 6:40 AM on March 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Let me clarify: This piece is the ONLY piece that we have sung in the 2+ years I've been with the church that is evocative of Jewish music.
Gregorian chant, the official music of the Roman Rite liturgy, is a musical descendent of the music of the temple and synagogue music.
posted by Jahaza at 6:40 AM on March 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
The participation of the congregation shoutiing "crucify him, crucify him!" is an acknowledgement of our collective guilt in the crucifixion. Jesus was betrayed by his own people. We are his people, we are the guilty that he saves.
I have been in a lot of churches, including some next-door-to-snake-handlers churches, and never seen this. If this is something your church does, the question of the music becomes a much bigger deal to me for some reason.
I've suddenly connected this whole issue to the reaction to 'Jews for Jesus'. You might want to look up that whole issue and relate your concerns to the ongoing problems with that movement.
posted by winna at 7:03 AM on March 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
I have been in a lot of churches, including some next-door-to-snake-handlers churches, and never seen this. If this is something your church does, the question of the music becomes a much bigger deal to me for some reason.
I've suddenly connected this whole issue to the reaction to 'Jews for Jesus'. You might want to look up that whole issue and relate your concerns to the ongoing problems with that movement.
posted by winna at 7:03 AM on March 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
I have been in a lot of churches, including some next-door-to-snake-handlers churches, and never seen this. If this is something your church does, the question of the music becomes a much bigger deal to me for some reason.
This is incredibly common in American Catholic Churches on Palm Sunday and Good Friday. Some Episcopalians likely do the same and some Lutherans may too. Unless you've been in a lot of Catholic Churches on Palm Sunday and Good Friday though, you may not have seen it. It's a "thing" for liturgical churches, at the opposite end from the snake-handlers, not next door to them. This is a descendent of the practice of the Choir singing the crowd or "turba" parts during the liturgical singing of the Passion. There are turba settings by Viadana, Byrd, Victoria, Schütz and surely others.
posted by Jahaza at 7:29 AM on March 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
This is incredibly common in American Catholic Churches on Palm Sunday and Good Friday. Some Episcopalians likely do the same and some Lutherans may too. Unless you've been in a lot of Catholic Churches on Palm Sunday and Good Friday though, you may not have seen it. It's a "thing" for liturgical churches, at the opposite end from the snake-handlers, not next door to them. This is a descendent of the practice of the Choir singing the crowd or "turba" parts during the liturgical singing of the Passion. There are turba settings by Viadana, Byrd, Victoria, Schütz and surely others.
posted by Jahaza at 7:29 AM on March 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
In a previous thread, I didn't like what I considered Christian co-optation of the Passover seder. But, in this case, using Jewish-flavored music at an Easter service doesn't trigger my Antisemitism meter.
I'm wondering if you sense other issues of subtle Antisemitism at your church, and are reacting to a broader sense of things not being kosher (sooo sorry, couldn't help myself). In which case, talk to the choir leader and/or pastor, and see what you can do about that. As a former Catholic, I support your efforts to reduce Antisemitism. We joke about the plate-o-beans, but your concerns are sincere and come from a good place. Happy Easter.
posted by theora55 at 8:25 AM on March 30, 2011
I'm wondering if you sense other issues of subtle Antisemitism at your church, and are reacting to a broader sense of things not being kosher (sooo sorry, couldn't help myself). In which case, talk to the choir leader and/or pastor, and see what you can do about that. As a former Catholic, I support your efforts to reduce Antisemitism. We joke about the plate-o-beans, but your concerns are sincere and come from a good place. Happy Easter.
posted by theora55 at 8:25 AM on March 30, 2011
This is incredibly common in American Catholic Churches on Palm Sunday and Good Friday.
That is interesting, Jahaza. I did not know that! I should have prefaced my comment with the fact that I've only ever participated in Easter services at Protestant churches, from the charismatic evangelical through the mainline types of churches. I didn't mean to imply that the liturgical churches were snake handler style churches, rather that it seemed to me to be the kind of thing you'd find in a very charismatic evangelical-style church. Now to go read about the practice!
I still think that it makes it more problematic, but that they may not see it because it is traditional.
posted by winna at 9:02 AM on March 30, 2011
That is interesting, Jahaza. I did not know that! I should have prefaced my comment with the fact that I've only ever participated in Easter services at Protestant churches, from the charismatic evangelical through the mainline types of churches. I didn't mean to imply that the liturgical churches were snake handler style churches, rather that it seemed to me to be the kind of thing you'd find in a very charismatic evangelical-style church. Now to go read about the practice!
I still think that it makes it more problematic, but that they may not see it because it is traditional.
posted by winna at 9:02 AM on March 30, 2011
I'm Jewish and I think it's a little weird. Not necessarily offensive, but just... odd. Part of what's odd is that the sound of today's klezmer music was developed in Eastern Europe, and I think it's unlikely that people in the time of Herod would have played that kind of music. So you're trying to evoke a scene of the ancient Israelites with a stereotyped "Jewish flair" from modern Ashkenazi Jews. I guess that's what bothers me the most—it reduces Jewishness to an interchangeable hook, ignoring two millennia of history.
posted by grouse at 9:08 AM on March 30, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by grouse at 9:08 AM on March 30, 2011 [4 favorites]
OP: What causes me concern -- and which I admittedly did a poor job of expressing in my original question here -- is that in my church, the only evocation of “Jewishness” (musically or otherwise) is occurring in the Palm Sunday prelude
Not only that but it characterizes the crowd that screams "Crucify Him!" as Jewish, without characterizing Jesus (and His apostles) as Jewish.
That does seem to allude to the deicide libel.
posted by orthogonality at 1:17 PM on March 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Not only that but it characterizes the crowd that screams "Crucify Him!" as Jewish, without characterizing Jesus (and His apostles) as Jewish.
That does seem to allude to the deicide libel.
posted by orthogonality at 1:17 PM on March 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Not only that but it characterizes the crowd that screams "Crucify Him!" as Jewish, without characterizing Jesus (and His apostles) as Jewish.
That does seem to allude to the deicide libel.
I think it does not make a distinction, it first associates the crowd that greets him, and as I understand it, the congregation is meant to be part of that crowd. And that same crowd is meant to be the crucifying crowd. And Jesus is welcomed and is part of that crowd as well. Jesus' Jewishness is indeed something that was acknowledged as critical in my own Catholic education.
posted by artlung at 1:44 PM on March 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
That does seem to allude to the deicide libel.
I think it does not make a distinction, it first associates the crowd that greets him, and as I understand it, the congregation is meant to be part of that crowd. And that same crowd is meant to be the crucifying crowd. And Jesus is welcomed and is part of that crowd as well. Jesus' Jewishness is indeed something that was acknowledged as critical in my own Catholic education.
posted by artlung at 1:44 PM on March 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
... the tradition of an Easter ham ...
What tradition? Christmas yes, but I have never heard of this as an Easter thing. Maybe some places, but not here.
posted by GeeEmm at 8:49 PM on March 30, 2011
What tradition? Christmas yes, but I have never heard of this as an Easter thing. Maybe some places, but not here.
posted by GeeEmm at 8:49 PM on March 30, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by dfriedman at 6:39 PM on March 29, 2011 [5 favorites]