Yes, they'll know I am Christian... how?

October 29, 2008 11:28 AM

Christian-faith-filter: What do evangelicals think of Catholics? What sorts of things would be good to emphasize, or, conversely, to avoid mentioning, as a Catholic who wants to be taken seriously as a Christian by a group of evangelically-oriented Protestants?

So, I'm a lifelong, practicing Roman Catholic, and therefore, of course, a Christian. Without going into too many details, I'm facing a situation which will involve my speaking at length about the state of my personal Christian faith, which will be judged by an audience of mostly more evangelically-inclined (but not fanatical) Protestants. Since I know that evangelical Protestants' opinion of Catholics is pretty mixed, I was wondering if anyone could shed light on:

(1) what exactly my audience's preconceptions might be (that Catholics are too sensual? not Bible-oriented enough? too authoritarian? too community-oriented? or what?) and
(2) what aspects of my faith I should emphasize (or avoid discussing) in order to show that I do possess a nice, mature Christianity of the sort that warmer Protestants could approve (Should I talk more about the private emotional aspects of my belief? Should I say "Jesus" instead of "Christ"? Should I avoid discussing politics, or mentioning the Trinity? And so forth.)

Note that this will be a personal faith defense, not a theological disputation-- the goal is to have people come away agreeing that I'm a good Christian, not to have them come away agreeing that Catholicism is a Christian faith (which latter point I'm sure most of them accept already; I just want to avoid saying anything that might negate that impression). I know this question hardly draws on Metafilter's strongest demographic, but this is the only place I could think of that'd give me a straight answer. Thanks in advance for any and all insights!

posted by anonymous to religion & philosophy (39 comments total)

I think one of the biggest misconceptions evangelical Christians have about Catholics is that Vatican II never happened. Many still think the Church is all caught up in Latin masses, indulgences, paddle-wielding nuns and praying exclusively to Mary, all that jazz. So really, a quick snapshot of the current Catholic church would be greatly helpful, I think, since many of the evangelicals I know seem to hold images that haven't been true since the 1960s at the latest.

Also, avoid the saints and transubstantiation. It's just not worth it.
posted by sarahsynonymous at 11:35 AM on October 29, 2008

They think you worship Mary as the equal of Jesus and God, or at least very nearly the equal.

They equate praying to Mary or a Saint for intercession as similar enough to worship to frown upon it (why not just pray directly to God?).

They don't think the Pope-Bishop-Priest hearirchy is a valid source of spiritual authority, such authority only comes from the Bible, which is God's official Dogma.

So, relate your spirituality to the Bible and things in the Bible.

Avoid talk of Mary, the Saints, or dogma developed by the Vatican rather than from biblical sources and you should find lots of common ground.

Also, avoid transubstantiation.
posted by VTCarl at 11:38 AM on October 29, 2008

Evangelicals don't have statues of sculptures of saints in their churches. They think this is too close to idolatry and therefore Catholics who pray for these images are in sin.
posted by dcrocha at 11:42 AM on October 29, 2008

I agree about avoiding Mary and the saints.

Some other major differences: most protestant religions have two sacraments (baptism and the Eucharist) even though they also have confirmation, marriage, and ordination. The works/faith dichotomy. The top down authority of the Pope as opposed to the more democratic approach of most Protestants.

I would make it clear that you've read the Bible and how you use its lessons in your life; that you believe that faith is what saves; that you try to epitomize that faith through the works in your life; that you pray directly to God/Jesus; that you believe it is important to witness your faith to others (and that this can be done in many ways, not all of which require you to be up in people's faces) and provide examples of how you've done that.
posted by dpx.mfx at 11:48 AM on October 29, 2008

The biggest complaint I've heard thrown at Catholics by evangelicals is that we put too much emphasis on good works as a requirement for salvation and not enough on accepting Christ as our personal savior. You have to understand that the evangelical belief is all about accepting Jesus as your savior, everything else is supposed to come from that. The view of Catholicism is that we teach that, "Do good works to go to heaven." You need to emphasize that we do good works because that's what Jesus told us to do, and we do what he says because we accept him as our savior. All of the saints, works and organization is still done through the prism of Jesus. Everything has to be through Jesus.

Second, watch out of Biblical literalism. Catholicism has been using a more historical interpretation of the Bible for a long time now, and the evangelical literal approach is often at odds with that. So you may way to avoid evolution and Revelations, which are really big in those circles right now. If you must bring them up, be sure that you stress the inerrant nature of the Bible, but in a spiritual and historically relevant sense. Modern evangelicals are big into the historical context of the Bible, they just look through a literal lens while we use a more metaphorical one.

More or less, stick to the basics. Talk about Jesus, your relationship with Him and if asked about other things, always make sure that it is within the context of faith in Jesus. Even our re purposed pagan rituals can be made acceptable through that lens.
posted by cimbrog at 11:53 AM on October 29, 2008

not to have them come away agreeing that Catholicism is a Christian faith (which latter point I'm sure most of them accept already; I just want to avoid saying anything that might negate that impression)

I think this depends a great deal on your evangelically-inclined audience. If they're mainline denominational Protestants, then I expect the notion that Catholics are Christians is non-controversial. But I certainly wouldn't count on this among evangelicals as a class. I'm still occasionally caught off-guard by the sort of bedrock, foundational, never-really-thought-about-it way that former evangelicals of my acquaintance will understand Catholicism as fundamentally non-Christian.

(Maybe this is especially common to the "non-denominational" point of view?)
posted by brennen at 11:56 AM on October 29, 2008

Evangelicals don't particularly have a canon of beliefs, other than the primacy of the person of Jesus. Here is what Jack Chick (prominent evangelical of comic book fame) has to say. Here's the famous "Death Cookie" tract that slams Catholic ritual.
posted by Burhanistan at 11:59 AM on October 29, 2008

Here's an idea -- check into the Apostles' Creed, and see whether it or something similar is recited at this groups' mass (I don't know for certain if it is, and am kicking myself). If it is, maybe a compare-and-contrast of the two -- "we say what you say, but you/we add this one line here" -- would be an interesting way to go. If not, then maybe just a talk on the Creed itself, dissecting each of the points and discussing what they mean to you -- "To start: we say 'we believe in One God, the Father of the Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, and of all things seen and unseen.' To me, that means..."

Because a creed is a statement of what you believe, and the recitation of the Apostles' Creed in the Mass is an affirmation of what Catholics believe -- and is a pretty basic "What I believe 101" that I strongly doubt differs by much from what Evangelicals believe, so I suspect the reaction would be, "oh, is that all? Oh, I can understand that."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:00 PM on October 29, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

I'd avoid bringing up the pope. Some evangelicals have trouble with that concept, and believe it to be heretical. I'm agreeing with most others here that you should try to focus on the base beliefs. Perhaps you should also try quoting some universally accepted ideas from Catholic thinkers and philosophers?
posted by mccarty.tim at 12:02 PM on October 29, 2008

(1) what exactly my audience's preconceptions might be (that Catholics are too sensual? not Bible-oriented enough? too authoritarian? too community-oriented? or what?) and

Now, I'm not sure if we're talking about old-school Protestants, such as Presbyterians, Methodists, etc., or the newer evangelicals/fundamentalists/charismatics, etc. So, having been part of both, I'll answer from both. From column a: They have deep respect for Catholics, they just can't stomach the whole Pope thing. And the Mary thing. And, well, the doctrinal thing. However, they'll generally see you eye-to-eye and accept that you are indeed a Christian. On the other hand, on your fundamentalist side, you may find that they won't accept that you're a Christian because you're not "saved," you place more importance in tradition than the Good Book, and worship false gods (the Pope, Mary, the Saints, etc.).

(2) what aspects of my faith I should emphasize (or avoid discussing) in order to show that I do possess a nice, mature Christianity of the sort that warmer Protestants could approve (Should I talk more about the private emotional aspects of my belief? Should I say "Jesus" instead of "Christ"? Should I avoid discussing politics, or mentioning the Trinity? And so forth.)

I'll go A-B here again. A: Emphasize your passion for social justice, feeding the poor, helping the needy, etc., as Jesus commanded. B: Probably say that you have a deep and abiding relationship with your God. They can certainly relate to that, and may not even think of it as such when they think of Catholicism, as they honestly think that the only relationship Catholics have with God is through the priest and the church.

As to the extras, don't worry about "Jesus" versus "Christ," as always, avoid politics (unless you know you agree), and don't worry about the trinity, as everybody but the Unitarians believe in it (well, the Unitarians around 1800 at least). Basically, avoid the obvious things you differ on.

Now, to answer your big question: I'd talk about your personal relationship with Christ, how that relationship has changed your life for the better, and how it has inspired you to something (I'm going to assume social justice, as it is one of the big messages of the Church in this quarter century, but pick your own as applicable; I just think this one would resonate).
posted by General Malaise at 12:07 PM on October 29, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

EmpressCallipygos has a great idea with the Apostles' Creed angle. It is said and recited in Protestant churches. Whether it is the same version, I don't know.

As someone who comes from a Protestant background, I can attest that you are getting some great advice in this thread.
posted by bristolcat at 12:10 PM on October 29, 2008

Lapsed Catholic here. Many Evangelical co-workers and pub-debate opponents.

They do indeed think Catholics "worship Mary" and to a lesser extent the saints.

Overall, they think Catholics are so far off the reservation that they're not really Christians. They actually separate Christian from Catholic, rather than recognizing one as a subset of the other, and when they say "Christian", they mean their kind, of course.

Catholics are not saved, since they have never been "born again", and therefore they are going to hell along with all the other worshippers of false religions.
posted by rokusan at 12:20 PM on October 29, 2008

Mixed Protestant and Catholic background here (indecisive parents!). I'd agree with most of what is said here, but I'd add that a lot of Catholicism seems like mindless ritual. Stand up, sit down, kneel, stand up... my mother called it "Catholic aerobics."

If your audience includes the more charismatic types of evangelicals, the part where the congregation holds hands and recites the Lord's Prayer might appeal to them.
posted by desjardins at 12:20 PM on October 29, 2008

I'm a lifelong, practicing Roman Catholic, and therefore, of course, a Christian.

I said it above, but this cannot be overemphasized: do not assume they agree with that statement.
posted by rokusan at 12:23 PM on October 29, 2008 [3 favorites has favorites]

I'd just mention that I don't think you should AVOID mentioning the things that people are discussing above. I simply think that most non-Catholics never get a very good, succinct explanation of how it works into someone's christian Catholic faith - and thus they believe the whole ordeal to be extraneous, improper or downright heretical. Taking some time to do some serious thinking about your own faith (as I'm sure you are doing) is probably the best way that you can "prove" to them that you are a good Christian also.

As for the organization itself v. the generally decentralized evangelical model, I would suggest mentioning the Church as the body of christ - the larger organization being a living conversation about how best to live in faith. That might make it sound a little less scary and cultish, as I suspect a lot of people think (esp. after some of those ridiculous public portrayals in recent years).
posted by greekphilosophy at 12:29 PM on October 29, 2008

Look, there's pretty much a standard model for Protestant what-I-believe narratives, and you're likely either to fall short of those expectations or look insincere when reaching for them. If you're a bogstandard Catholic, you presumably don't have the Bible chops to pass muster; if you're a cradle Catholic, and younger than Vatican II, you don't have the catechism chops either.

Garry Willis wrote a book called Why I Am A Catholic. (It annoyed the zealots at the Catholic League, so take that as a recommendation.) He talks about it here. There's a good review here. GK Chesterton also wrote about the subject.

Willis says 'to a born Catholic, Catholicism means their parish, their priest, their fellow worshippers', but it also means being able to walk into a church during Mass anywhere in the world and knowing from the cadence what comes next. The first word of the Nicene Creed is 'we': if you talk about the Catholic experience without talking about community and continuity, you're just condescending to your audience. You believe that God is a presence in the world. You believe that You presumably cringe at the 'prosperity gospel' (which is a marginal position among evangelicals anyway) and presumably have lots of time for 'I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink' and 'when you pray, go to the inner room and lock the door'. So you talk about that.
posted by holgate at 12:49 PM on October 29, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

I used to go with friends to their places of worship when I was young. One of those was a Protestant evangelical church. After listening to a rambling beginning, I suddenly found myself listening to a fiery harangue against the Catholic church. My dad and his family are Catholic and he tried to raise me to be one, as well (didn't take, but not the point), so this alarmed me enough that I paid strict attention. Now it can finally have been a useful experience:

Mother "Virgin" Mary = whore of Babylon
Catholic Church = the beast she rides in Revelations
Pope = devil's hand on Earth
transubstantiation = witchcraft
saints = idol worship
genuflection = witchcraft/cursing
fixation on Crucifixion = desire to see Jesus suffering
...it went on (mostly saying Revelations is an unveiling of the future if the Catholic church is allowed to continue domination of Christianity), but that's all I have cogent memory of.

That said, evangelical churches differ from each other, so there's no telling what the specific one you're acquainted with feels about these things. If there's a way to attend a service (they don't call their worship services Masses, and, for the record, a notable number view that as a Satanic term) incognito, do that. You'll get a pretty good idea of the baseline that way.
posted by batmonkey at 12:59 PM on October 29, 2008 [3 favorites has favorites]

Evangelical Christian here. I think you'll get good results if you...

1. Acknowledge/stress the sovereignty of God. Think Romans 8:28 - "We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." "God is in control" usually plays well with Protestants.

2. Omit or downplay whatever role the Catholic Saints play in the practice of your faith. If someone's looking for a reason to discount you, that will be one.

3. Pick two or three pieces of Scripture that are important to you, read (or better, quote) them to your audience and explain why they matter to you specifically. I love Proverbs 3:5-6, for example, because it underscores the need to trust in God and acknowledge that he knows way more than we do.

4. Give the Westminster Shorter Catechism a quick read. It's a FAQ for reformed theology (I recommend it to everyone - it's wonderfully easy to read and digest). Find some points on there that resonate with you and talk about them.

The most important thing is this: Relax, pray for guidance, and let God be awesome through you. :) Good luck!
posted by DWRoelands at 12:59 PM on October 29, 2008

The biggest complaint I've heard thrown at Catholics by evangelicals is that we put too much emphasis on good works as a requirement for salvation and not enough on accepting Christ as our personal savior.

Yes, this. That and the whole thing with the Pope.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:05 PM on October 29, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

seconding rokusan's experience. I'm a former Catholic; one of my best friends growing up (she still is) is evangelical, and she adamantly believes that Catholics are not Christian (due to not being saved, the role of Mary and the saints, confession via a priest, emphasis on good works, etc.) And she's not a right-wing fundie; she's politically liberal, dedicated to social justice, believes in science, is a huge Obama supporter, etc. She adamantly doesn't believe that Catholics are Christian.
posted by scody at 1:13 PM on October 29, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

(sorry for the repetition there. It makes it doubly adamant!)
posted by scody at 1:14 PM on October 29, 2008

Oh, and seconding the comment upthread about evangelicals' discomfort with the crucifix; as I understand it, the crucifix is seen as a symbol of Jesus' torture before he was risen (therefore, the proof of his being human), while the cross alone is seen as a symbol of Jesus' having risen (therefore, the proof of his being divine).
posted by scody at 1:18 PM on October 29, 2008

From what I hear, Scody and Rokusan's experience is not out of the norm, but I also want to stress that that is not the perspective of every or even most Protestant Christians that Catholics are not Christians. I come from a very conservative Christian background. Although there were several acknowledged differences in regards to our approach and theology, I only once heard someone accuse Catholics of not being saved or not being Christian. After some discussion, he later retracted his statement.

Of course, this is going to vary by denomination and region.
posted by bristolcat at 1:25 PM on October 29, 2008

I'm a Catholic with an Evangelical S.O. The biggest difference, theologically, is on the issue of justification. She believes that people are 'saved', i.e. by affirming that Jesus Christ is your Lord and personal savior, you get to go to heaven. Catholics do not believe this. Some evangelicals will believe that your rejection of this tenet means you are not a Christian. If I were defending my faith to evangelicals, I would argue that salvation is a matter of faith + works; this has been something of a tricky theological dispute from the days of Peter and Paul, so it might be difficult to discuss without getting into the weeds or discomforting the audience. Also, affirm that you believe John 3:16.

On preview: as scody mentions, the difference in symbolism between cross and crucifix might be a nice, safe center of your discussion. The crucifix emphasizes Christ's willingness to suffer and die for our sins. The cross emphasizes His resurrection and triumph over death.
posted by Nahum Tate at 1:29 PM on October 29, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

As a former/lapsed/alienated Catholic, I think that holgate has a great perspective. Catholicism is not an I faith; it's a we faith. We are the Body of Christ. We are, collectively, Christ's presence in the world today. We are a worldwide all-embracing (e.g. little-c "catholic") community of believers. And so on... It's not Jesus-and-me; it's God-and-us.

You see that again in Empress Callipygos' excellent suggestion about the Apostle's Creed: "We believe in One God..."

Although for many reasons I'm not part of it anymore, I know I miss the sense of connectedness the Church gave me years ago...
posted by Robert Angelo at 2:22 PM on October 29, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

Steer clear of the saints/Mary thing---as well as anything else that would be perceived as an "idol" or as praying to another god. I grew up in a conservative area and that was what my church often used as the central argument against Catholicism.
posted by lacedback at 2:48 PM on October 29, 2008

As an evangelical, many of my peers would think that Catholicism (and probably Episcopalianism) is not a part of the Christian church, but would admit that some Catholics might be Christians.

They would typically be delighted to talk to a Catholic who wanted to explore what they had in common, and most would be honest enough to tell you where they felt they differ.

I would like to think you would have a good dialog, but there are a few (possibly many) evangelicals who would think that if you truly shared their faith (as a Christian) then they would expect you at some point to make moves away from your Catholicism.
posted by blue_wardrobe at 3:18 PM on October 29, 2008

Cathlolics confess to priests. Evangelicals think that's messed up. They confess to Jesus.
posted by goethean at 3:52 PM on October 29, 2008

It occurs to me that the whole have-you-accepted-Jesus-into-your-heart question was the crux, so to speak, of why, as a Lutheran kid, I had friends who were certain I was not actually a Christian. I don't recall them asserting that Lutheranism was a (possibly Satanic) cult, though, unlike Catholicism.

I think it probably just wasn't flashy enough to make the cut.
posted by brennen at 4:15 PM on October 29, 2008

Consider that although many (most?) of the people in your audience will have been raised Evangelical, just about all of them will be able to tell you when they were "saved." Most of them would say that during the time in their childhood before they accepted Christ as their personal savior at age 5/16/whatever, they were not Christian. That's why, if you say you're a lifelong Catholic but don't talk about making an explicit commitment to Christ, they may not consider you a Christian. I grew up in a fairly middle of the road Evangelical church--my peers in the youth group weren't taught that the Pope is the antichrist or that Catholics are idol-worshippers, but they caught on that Catholics don't generally give testimonies about how they got saved, so when I told them I went to a Catholic high school they asked lot of questions as to whether or not Catholics are Christians.

RE: the Bible. When I was an Evangelical high school student attending a Catholic school, I was dismayed by the approach my religion teachers took to the Bible. Namely, they didn't read it literally, but they also didn't seem to read it. In other words, the party line seemed to be "this is the flawed, human account of God and His people" but the individual teachers didn't show a lot of familiarity with the text itself. I thought, if you're going to discount the inerrancy of the word of God, you should at least read it first! I'm not suggesting that you start to read the Bible literally, just bear in mind that many in your audience do. So, for your talk, you might consider discussing your relationship with the Bible--do you read it? how do you approach it and interpret it? what is the role of the Church in your interpretation of the Bible? what is the Bible's relative importance compared to, say, official Church teachings?

Also, as an aside, the way my Catholic school explained asking saints to intercede for you, it sounded an awful lot like the Evangelical practice of asking your friends/family/pastor to pray for you (except the person you were asking had better access to God). Maybe that's a can of worms you don't want to open, but I always thought it was interesting.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:04 PM on October 29, 2008

That's why, if you say you're a lifelong Catholic but don't talk about making an explicit commitment to Christ, they may not consider you a Christian.

That's what confirmation is for. If your confirmation name was chosen thoughtfully -- sometimes it's just, y'know, a name -- then you could talk about that. I know that others have said 'oh noes teh saints' but this doesn't have the same associations.

Garry Wills. Dear me.
posted by holgate at 6:34 PM on October 29, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

It all depends on how evangelical/charismatic your audience is. What denomination are we talking about here? If they are "no denomination" and identify as such, that's a sign of hardcore evangelicals. Growing up Presbyterian (in the South) is about as far away from that as you can get, and I imagine plenty of folks from my old church would be curious to know the differences between Catholics and Protestants.
posted by zardoz at 8:38 PM on October 29, 2008

You also might consider riffing off the "by their fruits you shall know them" type passages and discuss how your faith has changed you - do you help the poor, are you slower to anger, are you better able to forgive? Focusing on the big picture things you have in common will probably help to defuse some of the Big Scary Differences like the pope and the saints.
posted by oblique red at 9:32 AM on October 30, 2008

Just a thought:
You can ask how long Christianity has been around. They should reason that either Catholicism is a valid branch of Christianity, or God's plan of salvation had a delay of 1500 years. They should be more comfortable with the former idea.
posted by Citizen Premier at 11:40 AM on October 30, 2008

Just a thought:
You can ask how long Christianity has been around. They should reason that either Catholicism is a valid branch of Christianity, or God's plan of salvation had a delay of 1500 years. They should be more comfortable with the former idea.

Thaaaaat may kinda backfire, actually....some evangelical denominations (the really hard-core ones) think that the way Catholicism fits into Christian history is, "Well, you have the church as Jesus intended it, and He left it in the care of the Apostles, but over the course of the next few hundred years it got corrupted by Rome -- and that's when we noble [insert name of denomination here] folk broke away and got back to what Jesus REALLY meant for us to do and left those poor deluded Catholics stuck in something that's no longer Christianity."

So saying "we existed before you did, so we're Christian" will just be countered with, "you may have been first, but you stopped being Christian LONG ago, and we got back to the REAL thing."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:37 PM on October 30, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

You might slip into your talk that half the Christians in the world are Roman Catholic.

Check out also Kathleen Norris' Amazing Grace and/or The Cloister Walk. Norris is a Presbyterian who is also a Benedictine oblate; as a result, her reflections on theological words (some common to Christians in general, some more "Catholic" while other are more "Reformed") provide background and personal stories that might also resonate with your audience.
posted by apartment dweller at 10:57 PM on October 30, 2008

Just a thought:
You can ask how long Christianity has been around. They should reason that either Catholicism is a valid branch of Christianity, or God's plan of salvation had a delay of 1500 years. They should be more comfortable with the former idea.

@EmpressCallipygos is pretty much dead on: there are also plenty of evangelicals who will talk about "real" Christianity being carried on for 1500 years by small groups of "true" believers. They will thus deny that Catholicism was first - they will position it as a wayward sideline.
posted by blue_wardrobe at 10:18 AM on October 31, 2008

they'll know I am Christian... how?

According to Jesus:

1. Cast out devils in his name;
2. Speak with new tongues;
3. Take up serpents;
4. Drink deadly things without being hurt;
5. Heal the sick by laying hands on them

Personally, I strongly recommend against demonstrating that you are a Christian, especially via #4 and #3. Strongly. But I'm not Jesus.
posted by Flunkie at 3:58 PM on December 25, 2008

Not to nitipick, but I believe what's recited at Mass is the Nicene Creed, which starts with "We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen." Whereas the Apostle's Creed begins "I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth."

In the case that your audience is familiar and comfortable with creeds, I think the Apostle's Creed is more widely known and used. (This seems to be what I — raised in a non-denominational fundamentalist spiritual warfare church — and some others remember from childhood.) Some churches don't use or emphasize creeds at all.
posted by vsync at 9:56 PM on December 26, 2008