impact of bad PhD viva on career?
January 27, 2011 10:14 AM Subscribe
How badly is a rough PhD viva experience going to impact a future career in academia?
I recently had my PhD viva and it was an unpleasant experience, to say the least. The examiners thought that the theoretical background of approximately half the thesis was incorrect or at best insufficient, and in general I got the impression that they didn't really like the thesis. I've passed, with a lot of corrections to do, but I'm feeling rather as though I've only just scraped by - the only positive comment I got during the viva was that once I'd added a section describing all of the problems it would be a useful contribution to the literature, which I can only interpret to mean that they think the only value in my thesis is as a warning for other researchers of "what not to do when investigating this topic."
The thing is that I was planning on staying in academia. My supervisor had read my thesis over twice and was really happy with it, I've had positive feedback on other work I've presented at conferences, and I have a few publications under my belt. But now, besides having my confidence completely shot, I'm starting to worry about the effect that it might have not to have my examiners on my side. If they're supposed to be my main references for jobs, for example, but they think my work isn't that good, what do I do? Also one of them in particular would be a likely person to review future journal articles that I might submit - do I now have a direct ticket to automatic rejection?
Maybe I'm overreacting. I just feel like everyone makes such a big deal about the role your examiners play in helping you along in your career - and indeed, after myself and my supervisor, they now know my work better than anyone else - and now I'm afraid I won't have that help. Reassurance and practical suggestions for getting around a bad situation would both be welcome. Thanks :-/
I recently had my PhD viva and it was an unpleasant experience, to say the least. The examiners thought that the theoretical background of approximately half the thesis was incorrect or at best insufficient, and in general I got the impression that they didn't really like the thesis. I've passed, with a lot of corrections to do, but I'm feeling rather as though I've only just scraped by - the only positive comment I got during the viva was that once I'd added a section describing all of the problems it would be a useful contribution to the literature, which I can only interpret to mean that they think the only value in my thesis is as a warning for other researchers of "what not to do when investigating this topic."
The thing is that I was planning on staying in academia. My supervisor had read my thesis over twice and was really happy with it, I've had positive feedback on other work I've presented at conferences, and I have a few publications under my belt. But now, besides having my confidence completely shot, I'm starting to worry about the effect that it might have not to have my examiners on my side. If they're supposed to be my main references for jobs, for example, but they think my work isn't that good, what do I do? Also one of them in particular would be a likely person to review future journal articles that I might submit - do I now have a direct ticket to automatic rejection?
Maybe I'm overreacting. I just feel like everyone makes such a big deal about the role your examiners play in helping you along in your career - and indeed, after myself and my supervisor, they now know my work better than anyone else - and now I'm afraid I won't have that help. Reassurance and practical suggestions for getting around a bad situation would both be welcome. Thanks :-/
Maybe I'm overreacting.
You're overreacting. This feels pivotal and career-determining to you right now, of course, but a month from now no one but you will remember it at all. Do the revisions as quickly and automatically as you can, then put it aside for a while — really, just forget about it, until the emotional impact is less immediate. This post-partum cooling-off process is part of nearly everyone's dissertation experience. Wait a while before returning to it, and then just use what you can of the examiners' feedback to improve the project when you work on publishing it later on. It's just feedback on what's missing from one single project, not a judgment on you as a scholar for your entire future career.
posted by RogerB at 10:24 AM on January 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
You're overreacting. This feels pivotal and career-determining to you right now, of course, but a month from now no one but you will remember it at all. Do the revisions as quickly and automatically as you can, then put it aside for a while — really, just forget about it, until the emotional impact is less immediate. This post-partum cooling-off process is part of nearly everyone's dissertation experience. Wait a while before returning to it, and then just use what you can of the examiners' feedback to improve the project when you work on publishing it later on. It's just feedback on what's missing from one single project, not a judgment on you as a scholar for your entire future career.
posted by RogerB at 10:24 AM on January 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
In my experience, any repercussions tend to fall more on the supervisor than the student - he or she presumably thought that you were in a position to do well and that the examiners would be impressed.
I had a pretty rough defense myself, and my whole committee and I thought I was well prepared. My supervisor still talks about what an asshole one of the examiners was, 10 years later. I ended up doing fine (although I'm not in academia any more).
posted by gaspode at 10:36 AM on January 27, 2011
I had a pretty rough defense myself, and my whole committee and I thought I was well prepared. My supervisor still talks about what an asshole one of the examiners was, 10 years later. I ended up doing fine (although I'm not in academia any more).
posted by gaspode at 10:36 AM on January 27, 2011
If they really didn't like it, you wouldn't have the PhD. Your job prospects are fine.
posted by twblalock at 10:50 AM on January 27, 2011
posted by twblalock at 10:50 AM on January 27, 2011
The only virtue of a Ph.D. thesis is that it's done. As a Ph.D. student who is getting to the end of his studies, I can't tell you the number of times that faculty members have told that line to our grad students. The Ph.D. is the start of your academic career, not your magnum opus.
I think you're also misreading the feedback from your examiners. Making a useful contribution to the literature means that something is publishable--that's good! Add in the positive comments from your supervisor and the conferences you've attended, and you have a great start to your career.
Also, is it possible that the examiners are being extremely hard on you because they think that you can handle it? Some professors see it as a sign of respect to challenge a colleague without holding back, and your examiners might be trying to treat you as a genuine colleague instead of pulling punches. I don't agree with people who use that as an excuse to be jerks, but it's worth asking if that might be behind the seemingly harsh comments from the examiners.
posted by philosophygeek at 10:51 AM on January 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think you're also misreading the feedback from your examiners. Making a useful contribution to the literature means that something is publishable--that's good! Add in the positive comments from your supervisor and the conferences you've attended, and you have a great start to your career.
Also, is it possible that the examiners are being extremely hard on you because they think that you can handle it? Some professors see it as a sign of respect to challenge a colleague without holding back, and your examiners might be trying to treat you as a genuine colleague instead of pulling punches. I don't agree with people who use that as an excuse to be jerks, but it's worth asking if that might be behind the seemingly harsh comments from the examiners.
posted by philosophygeek at 10:51 AM on January 27, 2011 [3 favorites]
Congratulations, Dr. SymphonyNumberNine!
You're overreacting.
I had possibly the opposite viva experience; I went into it thinking my thesis was terrible (and feeling that my supervisor felt the same way) but my examiners loved it. I don't think that has benefitted me in the slightest in the years since. I don't see why it's likely that your examination experience should impact your career either.
Are you in an extremely tiny and gossipy field? If not, then it's likely nobody will ever know anything about what these two felt about your thesis. Nobody cares about PhD theses. It is your published papers, your letters of recommendation, and the way you present yourself in interviews, seminars and conferences that people will use to judge you.
If one of your examiners reviews any of your future work, it would be reasonable to assume that it will be judged on its merits.
posted by nowonmai at 10:54 AM on January 27, 2011
You're overreacting.
I had possibly the opposite viva experience; I went into it thinking my thesis was terrible (and feeling that my supervisor felt the same way) but my examiners loved it. I don't think that has benefitted me in the slightest in the years since. I don't see why it's likely that your examination experience should impact your career either.
Are you in an extremely tiny and gossipy field? If not, then it's likely nobody will ever know anything about what these two felt about your thesis. Nobody cares about PhD theses. It is your published papers, your letters of recommendation, and the way you present yourself in interviews, seminars and conferences that people will use to judge you.
If one of your examiners reviews any of your future work, it would be reasonable to assume that it will be judged on its merits.
posted by nowonmai at 10:54 AM on January 27, 2011
You might not be totally overreacting here, but you've got a window of opportunity. After you've finished off your corrections and have resubmitted, I'd go back to your examiners and start a conversation about your work. Asking questions about the most fruitful way to take the lessons from your dissertation and move forward would be completely acceptable. If you think that you're likely to be working with these people again in any capacity, it's all the more important that you don't leave them with a negative last impression.
posted by yellowcandy at 10:54 AM on January 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by yellowcandy at 10:54 AM on January 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
There is no grade on your PhD, once you get your corrections approved it will be a pass, the only distinction from some other theses being that this is not a fail.
There is a very high likelihood that no-one else will ever read your PhD thesis. There is a non-zero chance that the people in your viva didn't read the whole thing.
Get some publications off it if you can, that will make it look more valuable, and academia wise, unlike bullseye, it is papers that make prizes, and by prizes I mean continued employment in the sector.
Change your CV to include PhD 200X-2011, "thesis title". That is all anyone will ever care about your PhD.
posted by biffa at 10:59 AM on January 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
There is a very high likelihood that no-one else will ever read your PhD thesis. There is a non-zero chance that the people in your viva didn't read the whole thing.
Get some publications off it if you can, that will make it look more valuable, and academia wise, unlike bullseye, it is papers that make prizes, and by prizes I mean continued employment in the sector.
Change your CV to include PhD 200X-2011, "thesis title". That is all anyone will ever care about your PhD.
posted by biffa at 10:59 AM on January 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
It's less correct to say that no one will ever care about the quality of your thesis, and more correct so say that your thesis is exactly what you make of it, no more, no less. If you put the work into chopping it up into publications, turning it into a book, and generally marketing it, then people will read it and judge you on it. If you put work into emphasizing other aspects of your career, like teaching, service, or publication record, then people will judge you on that (and give you a job and pay based on the quality of what you emphasized).
posted by yeolcoatl at 11:05 AM on January 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by yeolcoatl at 11:05 AM on January 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
Nthing everything previous -- but will you get a written examiners' report? That can sometimes clarify the basis of anything that showed up in the viva.
posted by holgate at 11:40 AM on January 27, 2011
posted by holgate at 11:40 AM on January 27, 2011
Svante Arrhenius had the exact same experience and it didn't hold him back all that much. It helped that he was right and they were wrong.)
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:55 AM on January 27, 2011
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:55 AM on January 27, 2011
A bad PhD viva is one where they don't pass you. They passed you. Congratulations!
The role your examiners play varies depending on your discipline and your country. In my field (UK, lit/lang stuff) it's common for your external to be one of the references for your first academic job, which is the only real problem an examiner who didn't like your viva can cause. I'm going to guess you're in a similar field, with similar expectations, where people would look at you a bit oddly if your external examiner didn't write you a reference, and thus you're worried. But even then, I don't think you have much to worry about.
First: an examiner who totally hated your thesis can cause you issues in your future career. But an examiner who totally hated your thesis is unlikely to pass it, even with corrections. Yours did. So, however significant s/he thought the issues in it were, s/he also thought there was enough good stuff in there to fulfil the requirements for a PhD, once you'd done some corrections.
Second: your examiner's reference isn't the only thing that's going to matter, when it comes to jobs. You have publications under your belt already; those will count for a lot more than a reference about your PhD work, when it comes to future hiring committees. If you're really worried about an examiner's reference, the best thing you can do for your future career is aim some papers at some even more prestigious journals. (That's also the best thing you can do for your future career even if you're not worried about an examiner's reference.) And it's vanishingly unlikely that your examiner is going to have any negative impact on journal submissions. Stuff sent out to reviewers will be anonymous, anyway.
Third: some examiners are just rougher than others. It doesn't mean they think you don't belong in academia (that's what 'we're not going to pass this PhD, go away and start from scratch' is for); it just means they recognise that the viva is an exam, and isn't supposed to be easy. My viva was terrifying hell, and my examiner did not let any possible flaw pass un-noticed and un-commented on, but despite disagreeing with me on some stuff she liked my thesis fine and I got an academic job with her reference afterwards.
Fourth: yes, you're overreacting. Look at this:
which I can only interpret to mean that they think the only value in my thesis is as a warning for other researchers of "what not to do when investigating this topic."
If they honestly passed PhDs as a 'what not to do' warning, they'd never ever fail anybody. That just isn't the way it works. You passed; your PhD was worthy of passing. Stop beating yourself up because the viva was tough, and concentrate on your academic future.
posted by Catseye at 12:37 PM on January 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
The role your examiners play varies depending on your discipline and your country. In my field (UK, lit/lang stuff) it's common for your external to be one of the references for your first academic job, which is the only real problem an examiner who didn't like your viva can cause. I'm going to guess you're in a similar field, with similar expectations, where people would look at you a bit oddly if your external examiner didn't write you a reference, and thus you're worried. But even then, I don't think you have much to worry about.
First: an examiner who totally hated your thesis can cause you issues in your future career. But an examiner who totally hated your thesis is unlikely to pass it, even with corrections. Yours did. So, however significant s/he thought the issues in it were, s/he also thought there was enough good stuff in there to fulfil the requirements for a PhD, once you'd done some corrections.
Second: your examiner's reference isn't the only thing that's going to matter, when it comes to jobs. You have publications under your belt already; those will count for a lot more than a reference about your PhD work, when it comes to future hiring committees. If you're really worried about an examiner's reference, the best thing you can do for your future career is aim some papers at some even more prestigious journals. (That's also the best thing you can do for your future career even if you're not worried about an examiner's reference.) And it's vanishingly unlikely that your examiner is going to have any negative impact on journal submissions. Stuff sent out to reviewers will be anonymous, anyway.
Third: some examiners are just rougher than others. It doesn't mean they think you don't belong in academia (that's what 'we're not going to pass this PhD, go away and start from scratch' is for); it just means they recognise that the viva is an exam, and isn't supposed to be easy. My viva was terrifying hell, and my examiner did not let any possible flaw pass un-noticed and un-commented on, but despite disagreeing with me on some stuff she liked my thesis fine and I got an academic job with her reference afterwards.
Fourth: yes, you're overreacting. Look at this:
which I can only interpret to mean that they think the only value in my thesis is as a warning for other researchers of "what not to do when investigating this topic."
If they honestly passed PhDs as a 'what not to do' warning, they'd never ever fail anybody. That just isn't the way it works. You passed; your PhD was worthy of passing. Stop beating yourself up because the viva was tough, and concentrate on your academic future.
posted by Catseye at 12:37 PM on January 27, 2011 [2 favorites]
I don't know what field you are in and if this will be the same for you. However, all the biology journals I've been looking at recently have a option for you to list anyone you don't want as a reviewer. You don't have to give a reason, although having them as an examiner does give a weird conflict of interest anyway so could probably be used as a reason without mentioning that they disliked your work. Take a look around and see if journals in your area have similar provisions (generally it's something you can mention in a cover letter or it may be a specific part of the submissions process), so that might help with at least one of your worries. Even then I'm not sure that one examiner would automatically reject you. Having had work published successfully already goes a long way to giving you a positive reputation, so it would be pretty obvious if they just torpedoed your work without good reason.
But I also wonder if you're in a totally different field and market than I am anyway since I've never heard of anyone using an examiner as a reference. Sure they've read your thesis closely but it's your supervisors who were there while you did all the work, making them the ones who can really comment on your abilities and personality and work ethic and stuff. That's the kinds of things that a reference will talk about, the quality of your ideas can be seen anyway in your publications. Definitely talk with your supervisor about all this stuff, and also other PIs or post docs in your area (particularly ones you've worked with). They will be able to tell you what's considered normal for your area specifically, and hopefully give advice on how best to go forward.
Holding it together in a tough situation like your viva shows real strength of character. Also the fact that they passed you shows you were able to defend your work to a high enough standard, which not everyone can do even with less tough examiners. Those are great attributes to have, so try to feel proud about that part amongst all the stress. I hope I do as well as you!
posted by shelleycat at 12:49 PM on January 27, 2011
But I also wonder if you're in a totally different field and market than I am anyway since I've never heard of anyone using an examiner as a reference. Sure they've read your thesis closely but it's your supervisors who were there while you did all the work, making them the ones who can really comment on your abilities and personality and work ethic and stuff. That's the kinds of things that a reference will talk about, the quality of your ideas can be seen anyway in your publications. Definitely talk with your supervisor about all this stuff, and also other PIs or post docs in your area (particularly ones you've worked with). They will be able to tell you what's considered normal for your area specifically, and hopefully give advice on how best to go forward.
Holding it together in a tough situation like your viva shows real strength of character. Also the fact that they passed you shows you were able to defend your work to a high enough standard, which not everyone can do even with less tough examiners. Those are great attributes to have, so try to feel proud about that part amongst all the stress. I hope I do as well as you!
posted by shelleycat at 12:49 PM on January 27, 2011
Third: some examiners are just rougher than others.
Oh yeah, this is a good point too. One of my friends was absolutely grilled on everything in his thesis. But then he was given the written reports afterwards and they were glowing. It seems like they decided that he was a really capable, smart student and used that as an excuse to give him a hard time, assuming he would handle it. So definitely read the reports! If you get a chance to talk with the examiner after the corrections are done (like when you ask for a reference) then that may help find out what they really thought of it all too.
posted by shelleycat at 12:55 PM on January 27, 2011
Oh yeah, this is a good point too. One of my friends was absolutely grilled on everything in his thesis. But then he was given the written reports afterwards and they were glowing. It seems like they decided that he was a really capable, smart student and used that as an excuse to give him a hard time, assuming he would handle it. So definitely read the reports! If you get a chance to talk with the examiner after the corrections are done (like when you ask for a reference) then that may help find out what they really thought of it all too.
posted by shelleycat at 12:55 PM on January 27, 2011
Examiners constitue a small sample from a population with very high variability. You'll find the same with reviewers, where again, something you care about is judged by two or three random samples from a chaotic pool. Everyone in the business has this experience somewhere along the line. Shame it was your viva, but it doesn't cast a shadow.
posted by stonepharisee at 2:46 PM on January 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by stonepharisee at 2:46 PM on January 27, 2011 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by lukemeister at 10:24 AM on January 27, 2011