When to move from couples therapy to sex therapy?
January 18, 2011 10:46 AM   Subscribe

If the most pressing problem that remains after couples therapy is sexual, should we move on to a sex therapist or continue with our couples therapist?

My wife and I have made huge strides in couples therapy--better communication, far, far less bickering, everything one would hope to have in the non-sexual component of a relationship. The problem that lingers is that we've essentially had a "sexless recovery" akin to the economy's "jobless recovery" So after ~3 years of therapy we've had sex only about 5-10 times, in those three years. We have touched on that in couples therapy and my wife's sticking point is the concept most would call the "objectification of women". For her (my words), sex is an act where women service men. Oral sex, a male fave, is so overtly submissive, it rankles her feminist ideals. The most significant disagreement we've had in the last year was when I took my tween son to that Adam Sandler movie (I forget the name now) about adult males reuniting at their old summer getaway. One of the males has an attractive daughter who shows up and everyone is staring at her, well, T & A, for lack of a better phrase. My wife thought that was very damaging for my son to see. Men ogling women based upon their physical features alone is not what she wants him to see. I responded that, although slightly crass, it represents reality and that the thing we should be reinforcing is that looks aren't everything; our goal should not be to try to un-hardwire the male species starting with our son.

Are these issues something that we should continue to work on with couples therapy? or can a sex therapist help us with this? Is a sex therapist comfortable with unraveling societal/emotional/philosophical issues that impair a couples' sex life? Or are they more qualified in the techniques of physical intimacy that lead to a happy reuniting of the naughty bits? Might we be in a gray area here? I am getting the feeling that our current therapist wants to continue with the emotional part of the relationship with the attitude that the sex will naturally come.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (49 answers total) 4 users marked this as a favorite

 
Not an expert here - but that sounds a lot like something that your wife might need to work on in solo therapy (not that you shouldn't continue with couples as well). To have such a narrow view on sexuality is certainly her prerogative, but even for a hard-core feminist that seems like a slightly extreme view. It really does come down to whether your wife agrees that her view is extreme though, and if she DOESN'T agree that it's extreme whether you're willing to come to terms with having an oral-sex free marriage.
posted by dadici at 10:52 AM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


well, there are a couple of sides to this coin - could she feel so rankled because it's not an even playing field? do you work (together) to bring her to orgasm during intercourse? do you perform oral sex on her? have you ever gifted her with a vibrator for use together and alone? perhaps she feels so pissy about sex because she doesn't enjoy it and doesn't see the need just to do it to satisfy you. you sound very frustrated (and i can certainly understand why) but perhaps listening to the argument from your wife and starting with positions that can't be anything but for her, and working your way towards equality in the sack (69s, her on top, etc.) will help things out.

while making sex all about her won't immediately relieve your pent up needs, you may find that it makes her more excited about pleasing you as a pleased woman, and hell, you may find pleasure in getting her off!
posted by 2003girl at 10:59 AM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]


Some people don't want sex. Is she just making excuses? Sex is a damn powerful force of nature and it seems unlikely that this is a case of her putting her misguided ideals above a genuine desire to fuck.

I'm going way out on a limb here, but I get the impression you need to decide if you can live without sex for the rest of your life, want to screw around behind her back, or need to DTMFA.
posted by pjaust at 11:01 AM on January 18, 2011 [4 favorites]


You definitely should be able to find a sex therapist who can also work on emotional issues. It's pretty rare for sexual problems to not have any emotional component, after all. Although your therapist is right that in some cases resolving the emotional issue is enough to bring back the sex, that's certainly not always the case.

One thing I wonder is whether your wife has any sexual desires of her own. If she doesn't, sex therapy could help address that. If she does, and the issue is more that she doesn't want to share any kind of sexual intimacy with you, then you'll probably need to deal with that on an emotional level first, before you try any specifically sexual techniques.
posted by synchronia at 11:01 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]


So firstly, this is not actually a societal/philosophical issue, or even a men vs women issue. (notice the plural)You should not be approaching it as an argument with your wife about the nature of men and women and sex that you have to win in order to convince her to sleep with you. She is not likely to say, "Aha! It's biology! It all makes sense! I'll happily have sex now." She could see that you are right and still not have sex with you. Make sense?

So it is an issue between you and her. Not you representing "men and biology" and her representing "women and feminism." Your son has no bearing on any of this. It's just you, as two individual people, a specific woman and a specific man. Bob and Alice. Or whoever. You need to bring it down to the personal, specific level. What about Bob's actions specifically does Alice see as objectifying? None? Then there's a different issue. What does Bob want and expect from Alice? I think there needs to be a lot of personal, specific, emotional talk about your pasts, especially what has changed since the time when she DID want to have sex with you. And traditional therapy is a good place for that. Perhaps individual therapy for both of you as well, with the same therapist. Sex therapy might be okay to supplement, but switching to sex therapy and quitting regular therapy because you see the only problem left as "she won't have sex with me" is likely to send the wrong message to your wife, I think.
posted by Nixy at 11:03 AM on January 18, 2011 [10 favorites]


You've been in therapy three years and you haven't talked about your lack of sex? You need a new therapist. And three years in couple's therapy is too long. It sounds like you're making progress but way too slowly. Do you plan on being in therapy another three years while you talk your wife into having sex with you?

Your wife's ideas regarding sex don't sound feminist, they sound childish and she just doesn't want to admit to simply not wanting to have sex with you. You have to decide how you want to proceed. A healthy couple shouldn't spend this much time trying to figure out how to be together.
posted by shoesietart at 11:11 AM on January 18, 2011 [13 favorites]


Agreeing with shoesietart; a family friend of mine was a rabid feminist in the 1970s, which was in part to cover up the lesbianism she couldn't deal with yet. She also constantly told her teenage son how bad he was for having thoughts about sex, and he grew up to be very fucked up (not just because of this, his alcoholic father didn't help).
posted by Melismata at 11:20 AM on January 18, 2011


I am so sorry for what must be a painful and challenging set of ongoing conflicts. Seriously, this whole thing must suck.

But let me yank the band-aid off abruptly, nonetheless:

Your wife doesn't want to have sex with you. The feminism stuff is an excuse. I am about the most radical feminist in the world, and that is nonsense. Andrea Dworkin, definitely one of the most radical feminists in the world, ever, had a male partner for years (I believe they even married late into their relationship).

As others have said, your saying "But it's biology!" is an even shittier argument in response. Do the two of you even communicate, or do you just bellow poorly substantiated soundbites at each other?

I think your wife is absolutely right about not reinforcing douchebag sexist dudebro culture for your son, by the way. But that's irrelevant to the whole business of her not wanting to have sex with you. My armchair diagnosis is that she really wants to have sex with women, not with you or any man, and so she has come to some cockamamie philosophical position to justify her allegiance to Team Poon rather than Team Peen.

Certainly seeing a therapist who specializes in sexuality and sex therapy will help get this conversation out into the open faster--I can't believe it didn't happen during three years in couples therapy!--but I don't see it ending well. (In the short term; in the long term, you might both be happier with other women.)
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:25 AM on January 18, 2011 [16 favorites]


And under no circumstances should you stay with your current couples therapist. Three years without a discussion of this shit, without its being foregrounded--it boggles my mind, to be honest.
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:26 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]


Sidhedevil last comment sums up everything I believe here.
posted by Silvertree at 11:30 AM on January 18, 2011


It sounds like you might benefit from reading up on feminism and talking to your wife about her beliefs. You talk about her a little bit like a stereotype of a feminist rather than a person whom you love and whom has undergone a big perspective shift.

Becoming a (more radical?) feminist generally makes people a lot more aware on a daily basis that we live in a patriarchy/kyriarchy, and it's a pretty disturbing thing to realize - that the world is against you in ways large and small. And why this stuff that the rest of the world is fine with bothers you can be hard to articulate, so helping her feel safe talking to you about feminism / things she finds oppressive is probably going to help untangle your sex life.

This might be a good first resource:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/
posted by momus_window at 11:34 AM on January 18, 2011 [7 favorites]


also, so your brain won't be poisoned towards the 'f' word - 'feminists' don't 'hate sex' as a whole. i'm a big ol' feminist and love to get down and dirty, as do all my equally as hard core feminist friends. that's mostly because we know exactly how to get ourselves off and have made it clear with our partners that it takes two to tango, and the dance doesn't end until we're both satisfied. so don't go 'round looking at strong, empowered women thinking we're all frigid in the sack - quite the contrary!

(and on the note of the teenage son - i think either your wife comes across very harshly in her expressions of dismay or you only take the harsh aspects. imagine if you had a daughter and took her to the same movie - wouldn't it make you uncomfortable? imagine if your daughter were the one in the film being ogled - wouldn't you want to freak out? while there's no arguing that many men lust after women, you have an awesome opportunity to enjoy the moment with your son while telling him to keep those thoughts in his mind and out of his actions, as respecting women is a big part of being a 'real man.' perhaps if you told your wife that you used the movie not only as a fun guy bonding time but also as an opp to talk to him about sexual harassment/proper treatment of others so that not only will he not grow up to be a jackass but also so that he won't eventually end up in trouble/jail for a lewd act that he 'thought was OK 'cause he saw it in the movies,' she'll respect you more and feel sexual to you as someone who respects her.)

'cause what i'm hearing is that you REALLY don't respect where she's coming from, which is a problem. whether the problem is caused from miscommunication or different strokes for different folks, if you want this relationship to work in the long haul, you've got to come to a meeting point emotionally, especially if you want to get physical.
posted by 2003girl at 11:35 AM on January 18, 2011 [7 favorites]


And why is everyone making the leap from "wife doesn't want to have sex with husband" to "wife doesn't want to have sex with men"?
posted by momus_window at 11:38 AM on January 18, 2011 [5 favorites]


And why is everyone making the leap from "wife doesn't want to have sex with husband" to "wife doesn't want to have sex with men"?

I have encountered several women in my life who were uncomfortable with being a lesbian until they were able to rationalize it as a political choice. (Also, she is actually saying that she doesn't want to have sex with her husband because sex between men and women is anti-feminist and degrading.)

I self-identify as a deeply committed feminist, and as bisexual, so this is not kneejerk homophobia on my part (at least, not just kneejerk homophobia--obviously, living in a heterocentric society, I have certainly internalized my share of that society's prejudices).
posted by Sidhedevil at 11:44 AM on January 18, 2011


I agree with your wife that the Adam Sandler movie was offensive and sexist, and I would've been just as pissed if my son's dad took him to see it and encouraged him to think its content was acceptable. Adult men bond as they ogle a friend's young daughter? Presented as lighthearted comedy? Really? If you feel that this represents a "reality" that is "hard-wired" into all men, and not the kind of institutional misogyny that infuriates men and women who desire a mutually respectful relationship of equals, then yeah, I'd say your negative attitude towards women and sex is going to be a stumbling block in your relationship with your feminist wife.

Fellatio isn't inherently misogynist, but with a man who doesn't respect women it can feel pretty degrading. Have you considered that, to some extent, despite good intentions, you might be that guy?
posted by milk white peacock at 11:46 AM on January 18, 2011 [13 favorites]


I agree with others who have mentioned that your current therapist might be ineffective or is taking too long, but I would caution you before switching therapists- it may be a step backwards, and the new therapist won't know your history, your wife might be uncomfortable with them, etc. etc. If you feel that this therapist has really helped you, it's worth it to try to stick with them for a little longer. Have you brought up the sex issue in therapy? I think you should try that-perhaps make a solo appointment with the therapist and really communicate everything about the sex that's bothering you- and give them a chance to fully address it in a session. Maybe mention to your wife that you want to talk about your sex life in the next session, but leave it at that until the actual session comes around.

Armchair diagnosis here- I think perhaps you're framing things in very broad, objective, scientific black and white language because you're repressing the hurt and frustration you feel from being rejected by your wife. Making this a sex therapy issue is likely a step away from the emotional stuff, and a step towards making her "woman" and you "man" - that is, to a sex therapist, you're more just naughty bits than a personality like you are to a traditional therapist. (this is not a slight to sex therapists, just the name of the game)

A hint that I believe would help, is talking in therapy about how your wife is different from other women, and even more importantly, how you're different from other men. NOT that you're not "biologically manly" or whatever, but surely when you were dating or decided to get married, there were things about each other that you preferred compared to others. Really delving into that should help you reconnect. What about your wife's personality makes her different, or better than other women? What about you makes you different or better than other men, to her? Why did you choose each other? This should help. Also, really and honestly talk about your hurt, if you feel it, and you probably do, that you aren't having sex. This is not giving in or losing. This is not being womanish. This is what mature adults do when they are committed to a relationship and have a child together. (Even if you were to divorce, you still have to be able to communicate about issues concerning your son, so you can't just totally cut contact, ever)
posted by Nixy at 11:51 AM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]


I think some people are going a little too far here. For all we know the OP could be an incredibly selfish lover or just not very good in bed. They could have a history of him pressuring her to give him blow jobs or have sex with him when she didn't want to which could lead her to feel that sex is all about servicing him. When she says that sex is an act where the woman services the man, it could be what she's really saying is that when she has sex with you its all about her servicing you.
The view that blow jobs are submissive isn't an uncommon one (Personally I don't agree, IMO the man is in a very vulnerable position - the woman has a lot of power and you can have a lot of fun with it if you're into that sort of thing ) but not wanting to have sex with him doesn't mean she's a closet lesbian! Maybe she's the selfish one, if she gets no pleasure from giving pleasure to others then oral sex would be very boring.

Regardless - you didn't ask us to diagnose your wife's sexual problems, your parenting skills or your relationship issues.

I can't say whether a sex therapist would be any more/less helpful than your current couples counsellor but have you asked your wife what she wants? That seems to be the critical issue. From your description it doesn't sound like an issue she wants to work on. Idealogical/philosophical opinions aren't usually considered problematic by the person holding them and they tend to be resistant to anything that challenges those opinions. The only way you're going to make progress on this issue is with her consent and co-operation, you're not going to be able to 'convince' her to want to have sex again.
posted by missmagenta at 12:05 PM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]


Andrea Dworkin, definitely one of the most radical feminists in the world, ever, had a male partner for years (I believe they even married late into their relationship).

He considered himself gay.

I have encountered several women in my life who were uncomfortable with being a lesbian until they were able to rationalize it as a political choice.

But I think there truly are some women for whom it is a political choice. Many women are generally comfortable with some degree of bisexuality, and choosing lesbianism is a rejection of what can be perceived as an inherent sexism in heterosexual relations...

So, this can certainly be a complicated issue. Which is not to say that any of those beliefs are true, but they can't be called false either, because we're talking about a perspective, not a concrete fact. Sex is a complicated psychological issue. There are famously sex-positive feminists and anti-porno feminists, and both sides have endless literature and arguments about the meanings of their beliefs - but all that matters here is what your wife believes, and how you understand & relate to what she's saying. You don't have to be convinced by what she's saying, but if you don't make an effort to see it from her side, I don't think you'll solve the problem.

People can definitely be the anti-porn type of feminist and still have intercourse, but it may require that you work more on your foreplay, being giving & pleasing her, and avoid positions where you are obviously dominant. Also, you might find more lovey dovey type talking or playfulness in bed would appeal, as opposed to the strong silent approach...
posted by mdn at 12:10 PM on January 18, 2011


Here's the thing, even if you were to find a feminist focused sex therapist that your wife respected as an authority on sex and feminism and this therapist made a really good argument about man/woman sex not being inherently degrading to women, your wife still wouldn't have sex with you because she doesnt want to have sex with you. I have no idea if she is a lesbian, has a low sex drive or just doesn't want to have sex with you in particular, but her strong political beliefs are a smoke screen.

If she really wanted to have sex with you, she would. It's impossible to live a life that is perfectly consistent with really extreme ideologies. We all break our own rules all the time and I bet your wife does too. But she isn't choosing to bend her rules to have sex with you and let's be honest, when it comes to situations where most of us are willing to relax e rules a little, sex is usually at the top of our list. But it isn't for your wife, at least not with you... She's using feminism as a get out of sex free card with a side helping of self righteousness. Personally, I would call her on it and demand to know the real reason she doesn't want to have sex. Of course it's possible she hasn't come to terms with the real reason herself and won't be able to give you that answer.

As to the movie, I think your point is kind of bs and kind of not. I think it's ok you took him to the movie because unfortunately casual sexism is so pervasive in our society that short of cutting out all mass media you can avoid it. However, your whole men are born pigs is pretty ludicrous. Sure we are all hard wired for sex, but that doesn't mean that giving into our most basic impulses is acceptable or right. By that logic clubbing our enemies to death would just be doing what we are hardwired to do. Let's set our sights a little higher. I think you can go to movies like this, but still remind your son afterwards that the scene in question wasn't ok and that you don't approve or accept such behavior because women are people and being treated like an object feels like shit and we don't treat people in such a way as to make them feel like shit.
posted by whoaali at 12:22 PM on January 18, 2011 [5 favorites]


In my estimation, the world is chock full of women who will not have sex with you and will also not make you feel like shit about it.

You're entitled to your sexuality. Full stop. Yes, there are limits on it's expression and so on, but you are allowed to enjoy sex with people who enjoy sex with you. There is no wrongness in that.

If she doesn't want to be a part of that, and you really want that - then the solution isn't to cajole or caress her past the point of her anxieties. The solution is to find a person that isn't going to punish you for not being a sexless automaton.

As for the movie - well, there is very little redeemable about what a teen-aged boy will find amusing and there is no telling what lesson they will draw from even the purest of sources. Basically, she's overstating her case - again to make you feel bad, IMO. If you enjoy crass, stupid movies, then enjoy those movies with your son. It is possible for both things to be true : that the movie is stupid and wrong, and that you enjoyed it. This is what makes you a complex character in the story of your life and not some cardboard cutout of the person others want you to be. How you resolve those dichotomies is what matters - not that you have them.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:30 PM on January 18, 2011 [5 favorites]


mdn, you make an awfully good point--that John Stoltenberg (who is still with us, thank heaven!) self-identifies as gay, and is also a strong advocate for recasting the whole idea of masculinity, so obviously Andrea Dworkin's partnership and marriage with him was not going to be what most mainstream heterosexual people would create in a partnership or marriage--but the point I was trying and perhaps failing to make was that being a radical feminist does not automatically mean not having male partners or spouses, and that the OP's wife's argument for same seems awfully specious to me.

In a way, though, it doesn't matter. If the OP's wife doesn't want to have sex with men--whether it's for political reasons, or because of her orientation--the OP's wife is unlikely to want to have sex with the OP. If the OP becomes a more feminist man, he's still going to be a man (I also don't see the OP as particularly likely to become a more feminist man, given what he's shared in the post, but that's another issue).

So the possible outcomes here are: A) OP and wife split up; B) OP and wife stay married but don't have sex; B') OP and wife stay married and have sex with other partners in an open relationship; C) OP's wife changes her mind.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:40 PM on January 18, 2011


OP: It's been 3 years and you've had sex like 5 times? It's time to seriously consider whether you are getting what you need out of this relationship. It sounds to me like you've got a really good friend in your wife. Having a really good friend is not less important than having a romantic partner, but it is most definitely not the same as having a romantic partner. Do you want a romantic partner or a friend? Because it doesn't sound like you're likely to ever get the former.
posted by Justinian at 12:50 PM on January 18, 2011 [5 favorites]


"Dearest wife, sex is an important part of marriage for me. How should we move forward to resolving the issue of sex in our marriage?"

I'm a feminist, and I understand your wife's viewpoint (though I don't share it). At some point, having sex is more than philosophy, and if your wife doesn't want to have sex, then you 2 should talk about how to resolve that.

Meanwhile, your child(ren) will be exposed to lots and lots of horribly sexist movies, music, teevee, people, etc. Avoid it when possible, but, more important, talk about it. Talk about women as people, not as sexy babes, about respect, about equality. That will matter far more than the cultural bs.
posted by theora55 at 1:04 PM on January 18, 2011


The view that blow jobs are submissive isn't an uncommon one (Personally I don't agree, IMO the man is in a very vulnerable position - the woman has a lot of power and you can have a lot of fun with it if you're into that sort of thing ) but not wanting to have sex with him doesn't mean she's a closet lesbian! Maybe she's the selfish one, if she gets no pleasure from giving pleasure to others then oral sex would be very boring.

THIS.

To the OP: Have you asked your wife why she thinks performing oral sex is degrading?

And, there are different types of feminists. I consider myself a "sex-positive feminist."
posted by luckynerd at 1:15 PM on January 18, 2011


Mod note: From the OP:
Well I guess I’ve withstood some of the barbs concerning my reference to the Adam Sandler movie where the men ogle the young, attractive woman. The “reality” I reference is that men do first see the package the woman is “wrapped” in. This is cross-cultural if not universal. And I think I did indicate that our parenting should work on educating our son that looks is not the only thing about a woman that is of value. I think this article (written by a woman) discusses a lot of these issues quite candidly:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201010/the-truth-about-beauty

Upon reinspection, the therapy has gone on two years not three; I’m sure this doesn’t change anyone’s opinion about it being too long. Bu this is all besides the point.

I guess I’ve frankly never given thought to the idea that maybe my wife really doesn’t want to have sex with me anymore. If a lie, I’ve bought the idea that if we could just forge a more close connection that the sex would return. Even going back to our dating days, she never initiated sex. Several years back she aggressively pressured me to get a vasectomy saying it would make sex more spontaneous. The truth is sex almost dried up once the vasectomy was complete. I remember a mutual friend of ours whom we chatted with once around that time who said that she “could do without sex, but since her husband couldn’t, he got a vasectomy, cuz I wasn’t going to get pregnant again.” I recall my wife not taken aback by that comment and appeared to nod agreeably. But since I thought I was on the cusp of post-vasectomy spontaneous sex, I didn’t give it a second thought. When the spouse and I started having problems, I brought up that conversation again and was essentially told that I was comparing apples to oranges. My wife needed a stronger emotional connection to reignite her desire, she said...so I waited and waited.

So in many ways I feel like a fool. I’ve been conditioned to compartmentalize my physical desire, that these needs would pollute the real relationship work that needed to be done, hence my question of moving onto a different type of therapist—couples to sex. I wish our couples therapist would have said, “how’s the sex?” just once. It would have given me a free pass to respond about my needs/desires without sounding like the stereotypical guy who just wants to get laid.

Believe me when I say the emotional part of the relationship has been exponentially better. We are truly having a ton of fun together and are communicating better. We’re also engaging in more hand holding, non sexual touching and the like than we’ve had in years. I feel like I’d be sabotaging a couple years worth of emotional “work” to say the equivalent of, “OK, things are a lot better between us right now, so now I’d like to have sex twice a week.” [pls realize those are not the exact words I’d use, but you get the idea].

Thanks for all past and future comments.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:49 PM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


I think this:
Which is not to say that any of those beliefs are true, but they can't be called false either, because we're talking about a perspective, not a concrete fact.

is an excellent response to this:
Oral sex, a male fave, is so overtly submissive, it rankles her feminist ideals.

OP, if your wife believes on principle that oral sex performed on a man by a woman is degrading, then that is a problem and something she needs to work out in therapy on her own. However, I sympathize with the idea that sometimes it can feel the way she's describing it. A couple main factors are:
How well you are getting along
Whether the "servicing" is mutual

Maybe your couples therapist is onto something in continuing to work on your emotional relationship rather than the sexual one (though I agree with others that three years is a looong time). The thing is, your wife needs to feel like you are 100% on her side, and putting her needs first, before she will want to "submit" herself to making you happy. I understand this. It's a defensive perspective, true; but the only hope you have for breaking down those defenses is to put her first, in every way.

I think that, for many women, a one-way act like oral sex only works if the person doing it is coming from a position of complete security.
posted by torticat at 1:59 PM on January 18, 2011


I'm going to ignore all the back and forth about sexism, because I think it is really besides the point for this question, at least to the degree that we are capable of answering it. That is, I'm not really sure what is really going in terms of your or your wife's level of sexism, and I'm not sure how it may be impacting your sex life. Moreover, I think it you are probably both using it to obscure the issues which are actually present. So to get to it:

I wish our couples therapist would have said, “how’s the sex?” just once.

If this is how you are proceeding, then you're never going to get what you want. You need to bring up your issues with your therapist yourself. You don't go to a doctor and say, "I need help! Something hurts...you figure it out!" I have a suspicion that you are afraid to talk about this, which is reinforced by you saying "...without sounding like the stereotypical guy who just wants to get laid." So, rather than sound like a "bad guy," you're willing to put up with a life empty of sex? What's going on here?

If you are giving your therapist the vibe that you have improved a lot in most areas like you're telling us, but you are not bringing this sex thing up, it may not be your therapist's fault that you haven't resolved this: therapists are not mind-readers. And it sounds more and more like this has everything to do with your emotional connection to your wife and that, as other posters have suggested, going to a sex therapist would just be a feint: it would probably just cost you money and not resolve anything. If your wife doesn't want to have sex with you and you are not willing to talk about it honestly with your therapist, to bring it up yourself, you will never get past this. You have to push past your fear of what may happen and aim for a resolution, if you actually intend to be happy. You need to attack this problem with ambition and resolve.

Otherwise, welcome to celibacy and ineffective therapy for the rest of your life.
posted by dubitable at 2:27 PM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]


I’ve been conditioned to compartmentalize my physical desire, that these needs would pollute the real relationship work that needed to be done, hence my question of moving onto a different type of therapist—couples to sex. I wish our couples therapist would have said, “how’s the sex?” just once. It would have given me a free pass to respond about my needs/desires without sounding like the stereotypical guy who just wants to get laid.

This is where you've gone wrong. You need to bring it up and not wait for your wife or therapist to bring it up.

I feel like I’d be sabotaging a couple years worth of emotional “work” to say the equivalent of, “OK, things are a lot better between us right now, so now I’d like to have sex twice a week.”

You don't have to bring it up quite that way. You might ask why your wife has no interest in sex. You could say, "I feel like we've made a lot of progress in our relationship, except I worry that my wife doesn't want to have sex like we used to." Or something like that. That puts the burden on her to explain herself without being a demand.

Several years back she aggressively pressured me to get a vasectomy saying it would make sex more spontaneous.

This is interesting because it hints that she wants sex to be spontaneous and not feel like work or worry. Perhaps that's the real reason for the "blowjob" aversion too. Maybe what's missing is not so much tenderness as passion, excitement. But who knows? Try bringing it up in therapy as the first step. The results of that should tell you where to go next, whether to a sex therapist or divorce lawyer or another therapist, or who knows.
posted by Nixy at 2:43 PM on January 18, 2011


So in many ways I feel like a fool. I’ve been conditioned to compartmentalize my physical desire, that these needs would pollute the real relationship work that needed to be done

I would advise seeing a therapist on your own about this and other issues related to your relationship. I don't mean instead of couples therapy, but in addition to. There are most likely many issues with you that are affecting the relationship that can't be discussed with your wife present, in that she may be the cause or an exacerbation of the issues.

Sometimes it's easy to feel like it's wrong to think or want something. And then when you start to question these basic assumptions through therapy or otherwise, you can feel a deep sense of loss and regret. All normal, and all somehting a good therapist can help with.

You do need to be more interactive with the therapist, this might be you being too passive (possible) or it might mean you need a new therapist (more likely, as therapist should have been encouraging this behavior all along).

So I'd recommend a new couples therapist (possibly one with a background in sex therapy as well as MFT, if possible) and a solo therapist to look at your internal issues that are interfering with you stating/realizing what YOU want.
posted by wildcrdj at 2:58 PM on January 18, 2011


This is interesting because it hints that she wants sex to be spontaneous and not feel like work or worry

or she's using one excuse after another as to why she wont have sex with him. That's not to say she's to blame or doing it intentionally, maybe she really just doesn't know why she doesn't want sex. First she thinks its the lack of spontaneity so she pressures him to get a vasectomy, then she thinks she needs a stronger emotional connection so they go to therapy and work on the non-sexual side of their relationship. Now its because it upsets her feminist sensibilities. It could be that she feels pressured to give a reason that she just doesn't have. She might have even convinced herself that once they got over this next hurdle she'd be interested in and be able to enjoy sex again.

If you're already seeing a therapist that you both like and trust and you and your wife can't discuss the issue openly on your own then you should bring up the issue at your next session and take it from there. Even if your therapist can't help with it or still believes it will come back naturally in time, maybe he/she can help your wife open up more about her feelings about sex and help you both decide whether a sex therapist is something that would be helpful and something your wife would be open to trying or whether either/both of you need to consider individual therapy aswell.
posted by missmagenta at 3:19 PM on January 18, 2011 [7 favorites]


I think missmagenta is exactly right. The OP's wife keeps throwing up barriers to intimacy, and every time OP accedes or works to overcome the objection, the barrier changes.

OP: I think the most likely interpretation is that your wife doesn't want to have sex with you and either doesn't want to say that or isn't even aware of it herself, and all the objections are just Lucy assuring Charlie Brown that this time it's different and he'll really get to kick the ball.
posted by Justinian at 3:53 PM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]


I think missmagenta makes a really good point. The bluntness of my comment makes it sound as if your wife is conscious of what she is doing or intentionally manipulating and deceiving you, which is fairly unlikely. Most people don't consciously deceive their loved ones for years on end. She may have latched onto feminism because some of the more extreme rhetoric validated things she already felt about sex.

Either way I think you need a new therapist. It blows my mind that in 3 years of couples counseling your therapist never inquired into the state of your sex life. I agree you should have spoken up sooner, but still in 3 years I don't know how that isn't addressed at least once.
posted by whoaali at 4:18 PM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


This may be harsh but here goes:

You come across as an entitled sexist dude. You have no trouble raising your son in a similar fashion based on your example about the movie. You do that cutesy thing where you link to a bs ev psych article to justify this and say hey it's written by a woman (implication: so it can't be sexist!).

To you your objectification of women is a sticking point and not something you feel the need to examine. Based on evidence you've presented to us you either dismiss your wife's concern or attempt to justify your actions/attitudes by saying that's just how the world is. Objectification is dehumanization. You tell your wife she's wrong to be uncomfortable with this because it's some supposed natural fact. You are implying the humanity of 50% of the worlds population is arbitrary. I wouldn't want to fuck someone with your attitude either.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 4:40 PM on January 18, 2011 [6 favorites]


> You come across as an entitled sexist dude.

No. I strongly disagree with this. OP comes across as a dude who is trying to make sense of a crappy situation, where he must walk on eggshells around his wife for fear of upsetting her changing sensibilities. I know of a few other marriages like this, and they are not happy ones.

I believe we are all entitled to be happy in marriage, including enjoying a happy and satisfying sex life. Happy and satisfying for both partners. OP has had sex less than a dozen times in the last 3 years, and his wife doesn't seem to see this as an issue worth bringing up in couples therapy. That's a huge problem. At the same time, OP hasn't brought this up in therapy himself, and that's also a problem.

OP, I think you need to advocate for your own needs. I don't think that constitutes entitlement, I think that's simply a fact. Sex in marriage (or any committed relationship) is more than simply sex, it's also one of our primary means of experiencing intimacy, and most of us need intimacy to feel fulfilled and human.

OP, I am very, very sorry for your situation. Based on your posts in this thread -- especially that whole vasectomy thing -- I don't have a lot of confidence that you and your wife will be able to bridge this gap, because it seems clear that she does not want or need this sort of intimacy with you. As was previously mentioned, you can only address this issue if both of you see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. If you want it fixed and she doesn't, you are not going to be able to convince her to change her mind.

I am sorry if THAT sounds harsh, but that's how I see your situation.
posted by plowhand at 5:56 PM on January 18, 2011 [6 favorites]


or she's using one excuse after another as to why she wont have sex with him... She might have even convinced herself that once they got over this next hurdle she'd be interested in and be able to enjoy sex again.

How do we know she wouldn't? People can be turned off by things.
He said the sex dried up after the vasectomy, so that wasn't an excuse, and I would consider the emotional connection and feminist sensibilities to be related (she wants to feel that sex is a personal connection, intimate "love making" kind of thing, not an instinctive act of dominance that fulfills a man's biological need, or something...)

To the OP, I guess the key is whether you are willing to try to work through this, or whether you would rather just find someone whose sexuality is more naturally compatible with yours. But if you do want to work on it, reconsidering your attitude on your own, and getting into some real conversations with your wife, would be a good start. The evolutionary biology sort of approaches to these things simply aren't answers for everyone. Some people are fine with them and think, okay, so that's that. Other people think biology is a lot more complicated. Still others think biology is not the ultimate authority when you're a conscious being...

Basically, those are philosophical arguments that you can have (or not) with your wife, but you can't end the conversation by pointing to an article that sees it one way.

Does your wife know how much you miss having sex? If you can present it to her as part of an emotional need, a way to feel connected and loved, she may be more receptive to at least discussing what wasn't working and why things dried up... And if she really doesn't enjoy oral sex, maybe you guys can shelf that for a little while, and concentrate on the kinds of things she does find pleasurable. If you focus on making sure she's enjoying it, maybe she'll find the whole thing more interesting.
posted by mdn at 6:08 PM on January 18, 2011


My armchair diagnosis is that she really wants to have sex with women.
And mine is that childhood sexual abuse has made her something of a weirdo. Either way, this is something she needs to work through on her own, with her own therapist.

You come across as an entitled sexist dude.
No, he comes across as someone who loves his wife and would like to someday enjoy a normal sexual relationship with her. If that's entitled, I'd hate to think of what "normal" might be.
posted by coolguymichael at 6:13 PM on January 18, 2011 [3 favorites]


Your wife has some introspection and explaining to do.

- Her views on sex and/or sex with you do not jibe with an improved marriage situation.

- Labeling your intimacy needs as sexist or unimportant or "too soon" after 2+ years in therapy seems a bit myopic and selfish on her part - don't you think? What you describe is a friendship, a pleasant arrangement, or a partnership of some kind... but not a marriage as you understood it would be when you made your vows.

- It is curious the sex stopped after the vasectomy, and that's when the marital problems started. I agree your wife keeps dodging the issue and resetting the bar. I don't know why.


Your wife needs her own therapy so she can be honest with herself, and then with you. She owes you that much. Don't go on in a sexless marriage forever.

------
To answer your direct question - NO. Couples sex therapy will not help here.

I sincerely believe your wife is the one who needs to get in touch with her feelings about sex and/or sex with you.

In fact, engaging in couples sex therapy may delay resolution, as this might allow your wife to continue to make you responsible for something that you have no reasonable control over -- her feelings!
------

Good luck, OP.
posted by jbenben at 6:35 PM on January 18, 2011


And I agree with coolguymichael. My armchair diagnosis was also childhood abuse and not lesbianism. I also agree that the reason is immaterial for this discussion, only that the solution is squarely on the wife's shoulders.

The wife has entered into marriage and has a child. As a spouse and parent, I believe one can't cater to secrets or wounds forever. I believe taking on those roles conveys a responsibility to spouse and child that means you get your shit together for the good of all, whatever that entails.



Protecting secrets or wounds is a "luxury" happy and functional families just can't afford.
posted by jbenben at 6:50 PM on January 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


You come across as an entitled sexist dude.

I think the reason some commenters have this reaction, OP, is that you talk about sex in general terms about "men" (rather than saying, "I") like it's something all men experience one way--you talk about oral sex as "a male fave" rather than "a personal fave," and you don't know how to talk about your "needs/desires without sounding like the stereotypical guy who just wants to get laid." I don't know that you're being sexist, as in expressing prejudice against women, I think it's more that you're being... verbally clumsy.

There's a big difference between saying, "Men enjoy oral sex, why won't you do that for me?" and saying, "I enjoy oral sex, how can I make it enjoyable for you? What do you enjoy most? How can we make our sex life better, together?"--in other words, it seems that you aren't talking about your sexual relationship with your wife so much as generalities about what men want and what your wife is withholding from you. I wonder if this impacts what your therapist picks up on--I wonder if your therapist kind of tunes out the "men this" and "men that" and focuses on the areas where you're willing to talk about yourself and your relationship with your wife.
posted by Meg_Murry at 7:48 PM on January 18, 2011 [13 favorites]


If you can't communicate about your sexual problems -- and you clearly do have a sex problem -- then you're still having communication problems. In addition to a lot of good feedback from the hive mind, yeah, you might want to think about adding a sex therapist, but don't think that all your other problems are resolved.
posted by J. Wilson at 8:57 PM on January 18, 2011


You come across as an entitled sexist dude.

I don't get this at all and to say he's perpetuating this in his son is unfair just because of a random scene in a goofy Adam Sandler movie. You're assuming he'd seen the movie before or that the scene was central to the whole plot of the movie. If you avoid all movies where guys check out attractive women, you won't see many movies. Men notice attractive women. This is not news. Women notice hot guys too. Again, not news. And I don't think his suggestion that he tell his son that looks aren't everything was a bad one. There is a difference between construction workers doing wolf whistles and men noticing a beautiful woman. Let's not pretend that if a Pamela Anderson-built woman walked into a bar that the guys there would all wonder what she thinks of US foreign policy with regard to import quotas. Hopefully, they'll talk to her and see she that she's really smart and very nice but they're also going to notice her great rack. I think the poster's slight glibness is born out of frustration.

I do think he's entitled. Entitled to a healthy sex life with his wife.
posted by shoesietart at 10:16 PM on January 18, 2011 [2 favorites]


Eh, something is rubbing me wrong about your wording as well. It seems like your focus is entirely on "how can I get laid again?" and not "how can I show her that sex with me would be safe and fun?" We don't know if she doesn't want sex -- but we do know that she can't bring herself to be physically intimate with you. Why?

Yes, she may feel like blow jobs in general are overtly submissive, (I can totally relate) -- and they are certainly portrayed that way in society -- but why does she feel like that act between the two of you is oppressive to her?

Others have suggested that she's like Lucy to your Charlie Brown -- setting out this football, and if you get the field goal, you'll get laid, but then she keeps moving the football . . . I don't like the implication that she's doing it purposefully -- what if she's struggling to figure out what will make her feel comfortable and is dismayed that none of her ideas are working?

And it might be good if you were to figure out why you never brought this up in counseling. If it's important to you, and you believe you and your marriage deserve/require a healthy sex life -- what is going on inside of you that prevented you from bringing it up?

I would be curious to know if she's insecure about your fidelity, or about your attraction to her. Is she afraid of your sex drive, afraid that you're wishing it was someone else's body or mouth when you are together?

I don't know. It may be naive of me, but I kinda think that if you get the emotional stuff worked out, the sex will follow -- or at the very least you can come up with something that makes both of you happy. And I feel like you guys might be getting along famously, but the real scary emotional things are not being addressed. The therapist can only do so much. But if you go out on that limb, maybe your wife will meet you (and even if she doesn't, you'll have learned how to be the best partner you can be).
posted by MeiraV at 6:21 AM on January 19, 2011 [1 favorite]


Mod note: From the OP:
@shoeistart-- thanks for taking the words out of my mouth. That is to say that I did not have forewarning about the ogling scene in the Adam Sandler movie. Some seem to think I took my son to see the flick just to see that scene. Your hypothetical about the Pam Anderson-type walking into a bar is essentially where I was coming from, not the whistling construction worker scenario.

There have been armchair diagnoses about abuse and lesbianism. The former existed in her first marriage (within the first week; marriage dissolved right there) and the second I've had my suspicions about (could you imagine if I said that earlier in this thread?--"My wife doesn't want to eff me...she might be gay, no?")

I certainly haven't advocated for my needs in these two plus years. If this were a girlfriend and not my wife I would have been out of here long ago. The only analogy that seems to fit for me is in the form of a question, "What would you do about your sexual desires or needs if your spouse had a stroke or a severe car accident and physically could not be there for your "needs"?" Yes, my wife may not want to have sex with me anymore, maybe we're just good friends now, maybe I'm in denial, but I feel like she's had an "emotional stroke" that I had contributed to its cause, and as a result she can't be there for me. So the stroke victim goes to rehab--and we have gone to couple therapy. When the stroke victim finally gets out of bed and walks with a cane or a walker, their spouse does nothing for them if he says, "We're making great progress, but as you know, I love to ski, and it's real important we go skiing together, show me how much you love me by strapping on some skiis and hitting the slopes with me. [Crappy analogy, but I hope you get the idea]

Fundamentally, I take my marriage vows seriously. I might look back in the future and wish I got out earlier. But I remember in an old thread here somewhere when someone said that marriage vows are not only in effect when there's no one more desirable around. I am not yet at my breaking point. Remember my original question was simply whether a sex therapist might help us. And thank you to those who actually answered that question.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:36 AM on January 19, 2011 [1 favorite]


[Crappy analogy, but I hope you get the idea]

Yes, it is a crappy analogy, but no I don't get the idea. Skiing is not an integral part of a marriage. Sex (I believe) should be, for most people. It's more akin to having conversation with your spouse. You can ski alone, or with friends, after all. And the way you framed the analogy suggests your wife has a pathology and you are just there for her, biding your time. But in reality this belongs to both of you. You are just as "sick" as she is. More accurately, your relationship is "sick."

Fundamentally, I take my marriage vows seriously.

Woah...that's a big jump to make, and very few people have gone there in this thread. What is the connection between point A (not dealing with the sex thing) and the implied point B (divorce). What is in between? What are you afraid of? You are not telling us, and yourself, and your wife, and your therapist, something(s). You are dancing around things. Your fundamental question about going to sex therapy is an attempt to dance around things while still somehow getting what you want.

And I think that's why there is this crazy back and forth about sexism in this thread; people are trying to fill in the gaps with wild speculation based on the small amount of (distracting) data you've given us. Frankly, most guys I know are sexist, to a certain degree. It doesn't mean we are all misogynists, just that we are human and make mistakes—just like women. Most of us somehow manage to be lovable sometimes and keep having sex regardless. However, it's really besides the point here, as far as we know, since we don't know exactly why your wife doesn't want to have sex or what she has been through that is relevant. Neither do you, that's the problem: you haven't talked to her about it, really. I think it's time you did, either within therapy or otherwise. Maybe then you will know exactly whether specifically sex-oriented therapy would be helpful or not.

If I sound really harsh I apologize. The reason I have less patience is because you remind me really powerfully of how I've sounded to myself in the past (er, retrospectively), when I was hiding from my own relationship issues. My intuition is telling me that there are things you don't want to admit to yourself or your wife, that you are afraid to get out in the open. I have no idea what they are, and they may actually not be a big deal, but they are things you are afraid of. I don't know if you are a sexist or if she is a lesbian man-sex-hating abuse victim (and no one on this thread does and even you are just speculating about that and I wish everyone would just stop that shit frankly). But you do sound like you are afraid of something that you are not talking about.
posted by dubitable at 9:13 AM on January 19, 2011 [2 favorites]


Okay, forgive me, I glossed over the fact that your wife has said some stuff about why she doesn't like sex: We have touched on that in couples therapy and my wife's sticking point is the concept most would call the "objectification of women". For her (my words), sex is an act where women service men. Oral sex, a male fave, is so overtly submissive, it rankles her feminist ideals.

But I still will insist that this is a scapegoat, and there is a lot of wild speculation in this thread, and you are afraid to confront her on exactly what is going on. Okay, I'll shut up now.
posted by dubitable at 9:15 AM on January 19, 2011


I could have written parts of this question myself: a sexless relationship, a few years of couples therapy that have greatly improved our non-sexual communication problems and have helped us understand each other a lot better, but have done very little to improve our sex life. I totally get your frustration; it's like you have a broken arm while your doctor keeps trying to treat you for high cholesterol. It's great that your cholesterol is back at normal levels, but, uh, you'd like to be able to use your arm again.

You most emphatically do not come across as an "entitled sexist dude." You come across as a thoughtful human being with a perfectly normal and healthy sex drive who is trying to do right by his wife.

These comments of yours were interesting, though:

I am getting the feeling that our current therapist wants to continue with the emotional part of the relationship with the attitude that the sex will naturally come.

[...]

I wish our couples therapist would have said, “how’s the sex?” just once. It would have given me a free pass to respond about my needs/desires without sounding like the stereotypical guy who just wants to get laid.


"I am getting the feeling"? Why don't you ask? "I wish that"? Why don't you tell? For god's sake, you really need to bring these things up in your couples therapy, and I wonder why you haven't done so.

Your comment about "sounding like the stereotypical guy who just wants to get laid" made me wonder about something: is your therapist a man or a woman? If it's a woman, does this have anything to do with why you haven't brought up your sexual desires in couples therapy -- do you feel outnumbered, one man against two women? If it's a man, are you afraid that your wife will feel outnumbered, one woman against two men?

You don't need a "free pass" to talk about your needs and desires in therapy. You're supposed to talk about your needs and desires in therapy. You're supposed to lay everything on the table and your therapist is supposed to respond nonjudgmentally.

Have you asked your couples therapist their opinion about sex therapy? If not, you really need to.

Again, if you're suppressing your thoughts and feelings in therapy, you're not doing it right. It's your responsibility to dump it all out in therapy (again, that's what therapy is for) and it's your therapist's responsibility to respond, nonjudgmentally.
posted by chameleon at 10:53 AM on January 19, 2011 [1 favorite]


"I am getting the feeling"? Why don't you ask? "I wish that"? Why don't you tell? For god's sake, you really need to bring these things up in your couples therapy, and I wonder why you haven't done so.

Yes, exactly.

To answer the original question: you need to bring your needs up with your wife at couples therapy. You might even want to tell your couples therapist privately that you need to talk about this beforehand, for support. A happy marriage is based on both partners being happy. Maybe you think, because you're less unhappy and your wife actually is happy, that you should just be grateful for the improvement and you shouldn't rock the boat. But that's no way to live.

For the people in this thread who insist that OP's wife must be a lesbian or a man-hater or an OP-hater or a survivor of childhood sexual abuse for her desire to be so low: using validated measurement instruments, a recent nationally representative study of US women 30 to 70 years old in stable relationships found that 27% of premenopausal and 54% of menopausal women met the cutoff scores for low sexual desire. It's taboo to admit it, but there are a lot of women out there who just aren't that into sex.

West SL, D’Aloisio AA, Agans RP, et al. 2008. Prevalence of low sexual desire and hypoactive sexual desire disorder in a nationally representative sample of US Women. Arch Intern Med 168(13):1441-1449.
posted by gingerest at 4:07 PM on January 19, 2011


Mod note: From the OP:
You might even want to tell your couples therapist privately that you need to talk about this beforehand, for support.

Can one really do that? If so, I like that idea. I'm not sure how to phrase it without putting the therapist in a position that she's either taking a side or in some way administering to one or the other in the couple outside of the couples session.

I could have written parts of this question myself: a sexless relationship, a few years of couples therapy that have greatly improved our non-sexual communication problems and have helped us understand each other a lot better, but have done very little to improve our sex life. I totally get your frustration; it's like you have a broken arm while your doctor keeps trying to treat you for high cholesterol. It's great that your cholesterol is back at normal levels, but, uh, you'd like to be able to use your arm again.

Outcome? Divorce? Rekindled sex life? This is more than just a curious inquiry...it would be nice to know of an example where someone went down either of those paths in my situation and how it evolved.

@chameleon FWIW-the therapist is a woman, but this is not the reason I have not brought up my needs in therapy. The reason is because this is not our first therapist. I brought up the sex very quickly with the first one and was immediately shot down being literally told that I was "confusing sex with intimacy" and that my wife needed emotional intimacy and I should cease pressuring her for sex until she turned the corner. I just never got back around to the topic with the new therapist...and obviously, I'm still waiting for her to turn the corner. FWIW, that first therapist was a woman. She also was a lesbian. Considering lesbianism was thrown in out of the blue earlier in the thread, I thought I'd mention it. My wife found that therapist. The main reason we stopped seeing her was simply because she kept pressuring us into signing up for expensive weekend therapy retreats. It became uncomfortable to have to continually respond that we didn't have the time or money at the time.

Thanks for the responses. I realize I need to be more proactive. I really have floated a bit through therapy trying to help us get to a better emotional place. More often than not that has subjugated my needs to my wife's needs.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:45 PM on January 20, 2011


To the OP:

My situation is still ongoing after three years of couples therapy, and the sex life still hasn't improved except very slightly. The facts are a little bit different (gay male couple, for one thing). In our situation we eventually discovered that part of the cause is chemical: has has low testosterone. But even after getting that treated, the sex life has barely improved at all. If you want to MeFiMail me or provide a throwaway email address, I'd be happy to provide some details.

It sounds like the first therapist was definitely not a good fit, and it's good that you ended it. But it also seems like maybe that first therapy experience tainted your current one.

It's good that you realize you need to be more proactive. Sometimes we expect therapists to be mind-readers, but they're really not -- they only know as much as you tell them.
posted by chameleon at 8:26 AM on January 21, 2011


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