Knowledge that will hurt my friends. Or my XCo. (ethical Q)
December 16, 2010 12:31 PM Subscribe
Several years ago I left OldCo for NewCo, but maintained a lot of friendships with people from OldCo. NewCo was taken over by XCo, who made a lot of changes. XCo interested OldCo in some products.
Then XCo laid me, and a third of our group, off and OldCo found out (even before I told my friends I would miss various weekly traditions).
XCo can in no way deliver the products they are promising to OldCo. No. Way. The layoff came about because XCo is not even delivering to existing customers. OldCo's due diligence in bringing on a new supplier should turn facts like these up.
My loyalties to individuals are entirely with OldCo, but I have an ethical responsibility to XCo not to fink, I think. However, I have already got a question from a friend at OldCo about "how things are going over there" and I had to change the subject. That in itself might have been a hint.
How far does my ethical responsibility to XCo go? My friends would depend on XCo and get burned if they keep going with them. XCo would have a legitimate grievance if I torpedoed any of their business. There's me, feeling squeezed.
Throwaway email: mustnotblurtitout@gmail.com
Then XCo laid me, and a third of our group, off and OldCo found out (even before I told my friends I would miss various weekly traditions).
XCo can in no way deliver the products they are promising to OldCo. No. Way. The layoff came about because XCo is not even delivering to existing customers. OldCo's due diligence in bringing on a new supplier should turn facts like these up.
My loyalties to individuals are entirely with OldCo, but I have an ethical responsibility to XCo not to fink, I think. However, I have already got a question from a friend at OldCo about "how things are going over there" and I had to change the subject. That in itself might have been a hint.
How far does my ethical responsibility to XCo go? My friends would depend on XCo and get burned if they keep going with them. XCo would have a legitimate grievance if I torpedoed any of their business. There's me, feeling squeezed.
Throwaway email: mustnotblurtitout@gmail.com
How is it unethical to tell someone that another company is dealing with them unethically. As I see it, XCo knows they can't deliver the products they promised and in leading OldCo to believe that they can, they are acting unethically.
Your responsibility to XCo ended when they terminated your employment.
posted by inturnaround at 12:47 PM on December 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
Your responsibility to XCo ended when they terminated your employment.
posted by inturnaround at 12:47 PM on December 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
OldCo's due diligence in bringing on a new supplier should turn facts like these up.
So really, if they research XCo sufficiently, they should figure out not to use them and be okay. I assume your discomfort is coming from the "what if?" scenario, in which OldCo does not figure out that their potential new supplier is going to screw them. Can't you just drop a sort of subtle warning to your friends that they be VERY thorough in their research?
posted by coupdefoudre at 12:54 PM on December 16, 2010
So really, if they research XCo sufficiently, they should figure out not to use them and be okay. I assume your discomfort is coming from the "what if?" scenario, in which OldCo does not figure out that their potential new supplier is going to screw them. Can't you just drop a sort of subtle warning to your friends that they be VERY thorough in their research?
posted by coupdefoudre at 12:54 PM on December 16, 2010
Do you have an NDA (non-disclosure agreement) in your employment or severance contracts? Make good and sure (lawyer time!), but if not, talk all you want as far as I'm concerned - at least ethically speaking. Ethically, your responsibilities to XCo ended when the paychecks did. If XCo would prefer that you didn't say anything, they should have thought of that before they laid you off.
Of course, lack of an NDA may not keep XCo from suing you to shut you up, but that's a different issue.
posted by deadmessenger at 12:56 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Of course, lack of an NDA may not keep XCo from suing you to shut you up, but that's a different issue.
posted by deadmessenger at 12:56 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Ethically, I agree with what has been said. However, you should check your employee handbook or contract (whatever is relevant) from XCo to see if they explicitly say that they own any confidential information. Before you tell your friends at OldCo that their company and themselves in particular are going to get burned, I would want to make sure that XCo can't hold YOU liable for the loss of sales.
posted by VTX at 12:59 PM on December 16, 2010
posted by VTX at 12:59 PM on December 16, 2010
Your responsibility to XCo ended when they terminated your employment.
Not necessarily. It is pretty common for a departing employee to be covered by a non-disclosure agreement that specifically prevents sensitive proprietary information of the exact sort that is of concern from being leaked... regardless of who initiated the departure. And as VTX pointed out, this could have been covered in an employment contract or policy acknowledgment that you signed years ago. Be comprehensive in researching your obligations, Anon.
How far does my ethical responsibility to XCo go? My friends would depend on XCo and get burned if they keep going with them. XCo would have a legitimate grievance if I torpedoed any of their business.
I believe your ethical responsibility to XCo ends at your official legal responsibility, and yes, XCo would in fact have a legit grievance if you violated an NDA.
But as you have already alluded... a well-timed hint, or silence in the face of a question about XCo's health, can speak volumes. I think you can satisfy both of your ethical obligations by gently, carefully, obliquely communicating that OldCo should reconsider its supplier relationships... without naming XCo. It's a fine line to walk but it's the only way you can serve both masters: your conscience, and your responsibility to protect trade secrets of a former employer.
posted by pineapple at 1:03 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
Not necessarily. It is pretty common for a departing employee to be covered by a non-disclosure agreement that specifically prevents sensitive proprietary information of the exact sort that is of concern from being leaked... regardless of who initiated the departure. And as VTX pointed out, this could have been covered in an employment contract or policy acknowledgment that you signed years ago. Be comprehensive in researching your obligations, Anon.
How far does my ethical responsibility to XCo go? My friends would depend on XCo and get burned if they keep going with them. XCo would have a legitimate grievance if I torpedoed any of their business.
I believe your ethical responsibility to XCo ends at your official legal responsibility, and yes, XCo would in fact have a legit grievance if you violated an NDA.
But as you have already alluded... a well-timed hint, or silence in the face of a question about XCo's health, can speak volumes. I think you can satisfy both of your ethical obligations by gently, carefully, obliquely communicating that OldCo should reconsider its supplier relationships... without naming XCo. It's a fine line to walk but it's the only way you can serve both masters: your conscience, and your responsibility to protect trade secrets of a former employer.
posted by pineapple at 1:03 PM on December 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
XCo fired you. Absent some kind of agreement to remain silent on business matters, I don't see how you have any ethical obligation to XCo.
But destroying XCo's business by spreading damaging rumors about it could expose you to a lawsuit for some kind of business tort (like tortious interference) -- I'd be concerned enough that I wouldn't tell anyone "XCo can't deliver the products it's promising" without (1) being extremely sure about that, and not overstating its limitations in any way, and (2) talking with a lawyer.
posted by J. Wilson at 1:13 PM on December 16, 2010
But destroying XCo's business by spreading damaging rumors about it could expose you to a lawsuit for some kind of business tort (like tortious interference) -- I'd be concerned enough that I wouldn't tell anyone "XCo can't deliver the products it's promising" without (1) being extremely sure about that, and not overstating its limitations in any way, and (2) talking with a lawyer.
posted by J. Wilson at 1:13 PM on December 16, 2010
Next time OldCo friends ask about XCo, just drop a very pointed but oblique hint that doesn't give any hard info, something like...
"I can't really talk because I'm under an NDA for another year, but let me just say you guys need to be very thorough in any due diligence you do with your suppliers."
posted by slogger at 1:48 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
"I can't really talk because I'm under an NDA for another year, but let me just say you guys need to be very thorough in any due diligence you do with your suppliers."
posted by slogger at 1:48 PM on December 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
I too would be leery of ratting out XCo to your OldCo cohorts. First, it's not clear if there's an NDA or anything in any employment agreement that could expose you to liability. XCo's inability to produce may also be deemed (arguably?) a trade secret. If it turns out you were wrong, there are other potential torts, like tortious interference (not very likely) and defamation (more likely).
My suggestion is that you tell OldCo, "When I left OldCo, I kept my mouth shut about the inner workings of OldCo, which I know you respect. Now I'm in the same position with XCo, so I'm sure you'll understand I can't discuss that stuff." It's up to you whether you want to tailor this so stuff leaks out between the lines, but when you are sufficiently advanced in your career, your more intelligent peers and potential employers will value your discretion. Not a bad thing when you're between gigs. Don't risk your reputation to hurt XCo unless you really weigh the risks and decide there's something valuable enough in it to justify what might be very serious financial risk to you.
If you're just determined to leak, bear in mind Ambrose Bierce:
Bear not false witness--that is low--
But "hear 'tis rumored so and so."
posted by Hylas at 1:51 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
My suggestion is that you tell OldCo, "When I left OldCo, I kept my mouth shut about the inner workings of OldCo, which I know you respect. Now I'm in the same position with XCo, so I'm sure you'll understand I can't discuss that stuff." It's up to you whether you want to tailor this so stuff leaks out between the lines, but when you are sufficiently advanced in your career, your more intelligent peers and potential employers will value your discretion. Not a bad thing when you're between gigs. Don't risk your reputation to hurt XCo unless you really weigh the risks and decide there's something valuable enough in it to justify what might be very serious financial risk to you.
If you're just determined to leak, bear in mind Ambrose Bierce:
Bear not false witness--that is low--
But "hear 'tis rumored so and so."
posted by Hylas at 1:51 PM on December 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Within the bounds of what is legal, I believe your personal obligations outweigh some amorphous obligation "not to fink." This is how relationships work: the truth spreads. That said, you don't know that they can't deliver. (For example, they might have Aladdin's lamp and use the genie to deliver them the capacity.) So, don't say anything with that much certainty, because then your advice becomes an overstatement.
The best route would be to not say anything directly, but to speak up for general good practices, not trashing them but speaking up forapple pie doing one's research. [On preview, what slogger said.] Deflect their questions with questions about due diligence. Something like: "why are you asking me? I'm sure you all are doing solid research into XCo as a supplier, right? What are you hearing?"
Or this:
You: "well, there have been a few changes, obviously! [ha ha] What has your research been turning up?"
Them: "well, we actually haven't done any. Guess we should do that, huh?"
You: "yeah, that's probably a good idea. [meaningful pause]"
Or:
"There are a lot of smart people there. But if anyone asked me, 'should I do my research before contracting with a company that's giving out pink slips?' I'd probably say that sounded like a good idea."
As pineapple says, there are other ways to hint at this via silence or a meaningful glance without coming out and saying anything.
But think about the person you're telling. Are they a drama-fest who might exaggerate your role? Or are they diplomatic, poised, and generally cautious about what they say? That's the difference between "you're doing your due diligence, right? *meaningful look*" vs. "you're doing your due diligence, right? You were always so careful when I worked with you at OldCo. Say, how's the family?"
posted by salvia at 1:54 PM on December 16, 2010
The best route would be to not say anything directly, but to speak up for general good practices, not trashing them but speaking up for
Or this:
You: "well, there have been a few changes, obviously! [ha ha] What has your research been turning up?"
Them: "well, we actually haven't done any. Guess we should do that, huh?"
You: "yeah, that's probably a good idea. [meaningful pause]"
Or:
"There are a lot of smart people there. But if anyone asked me, 'should I do my research before contracting with a company that's giving out pink slips?' I'd probably say that sounded like a good idea."
As pineapple says, there are other ways to hint at this via silence or a meaningful glance without coming out and saying anything.
But think about the person you're telling. Are they a drama-fest who might exaggerate your role? Or are they diplomatic, poised, and generally cautious about what they say? That's the difference between "you're doing your due diligence, right? *meaningful look*" vs. "you're doing your due diligence, right? You were always so careful when I worked with you at OldCo. Say, how's the family?"
posted by salvia at 1:54 PM on December 16, 2010
It is pretty common for a departing employee to be covered by a non-disclosure agreement that specifically prevents sensitive proprietary information of the exact sort that is of concern from being leaked... regardless of who initiated the departure.
While that means it might not legal or financially prudent to tell OldCo friends, it has nothing to do with the ethics of the situation. What's legal isn't always ethical and what's ethical isn't always legal.
So I stand by my answer.
posted by inturnaround at 1:57 PM on December 16, 2010
While that means it might not legal or financially prudent to tell OldCo friends, it has nothing to do with the ethics of the situation. What's legal isn't always ethical and what's ethical isn't always legal.
So I stand by my answer.
posted by inturnaround at 1:57 PM on December 16, 2010
Isn't being laid off different from being fired? If you're laid off then they might re-hire you, right? I don't know if this makes a difference in your legal obligations to XCo.
posted by mareli at 2:33 PM on December 16, 2010
posted by mareli at 2:33 PM on December 16, 2010
You would probably know if any part of your employment agreement held past your getting fired, especially if there was a non-disparagement clause in it, which there probably wasn't.
Your friend calls again and ask how things are going over there, you say "shitty, the company is in trouble and laid a bunch of us off!"
posted by rhizome at 3:44 PM on December 16, 2010
Your friend calls again and ask how things are going over there, you say "shitty, the company is in trouble and laid a bunch of us off!"
posted by rhizome at 3:44 PM on December 16, 2010
I think you need to remember that you have no specific duty to OldCo to warn them of XCo's problems, regardless of understandable feelings about your friends there.
And while you singing to OldCo like a canary will doubtless be useful to them, it will still establish to them that you are, in fact, willing to disclose confidential information. I don't know if you're interested in going back to work for them, but disclosing bad things about your recent employer, regardless of justification, would not make me want to hire you. I know it's a bit of a Catch-22...
I think any pointed questions can, as indicated already, be handled meaningfully by silence or statements like "make sure you do your due diligence," but even there, do NOT let them play charades with you. You know what I mean:
them: So you're saying they don't have the manpower?
you: no, actually, their manpower is fine.
them: the design of the product is pants?
you: actually, Bill designed the system before they laid him off. It's fine.
them: and they've got good inventory?
you: do your homework there, is all I'm sayin'...
If you play that game, you might as well have just told them the 'secret' - their inventory isn't there (I'm making this example up, of course).
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:33 PM on December 16, 2010
And while you singing to OldCo like a canary will doubtless be useful to them, it will still establish to them that you are, in fact, willing to disclose confidential information. I don't know if you're interested in going back to work for them, but disclosing bad things about your recent employer, regardless of justification, would not make me want to hire you. I know it's a bit of a Catch-22...
I think any pointed questions can, as indicated already, be handled meaningfully by silence or statements like "make sure you do your due diligence," but even there, do NOT let them play charades with you. You know what I mean:
them: So you're saying they don't have the manpower?
you: no, actually, their manpower is fine.
them: the design of the product is pants?
you: actually, Bill designed the system before they laid him off. It's fine.
them: and they've got good inventory?
you: do your homework there, is all I'm sayin'...
If you play that game, you might as well have just told them the 'secret' - their inventory isn't there (I'm making this example up, of course).
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:33 PM on December 16, 2010
However, I have already got a question from a friend at OldCo about "how things are going over there" and I had to change the subject. That in itself might have been a hint.
Exactly, but moreso. You don't have to actually spill the details or make any specific accusations. Best not, it'll sound like sour grapes anyway.
But you can answer that question with "Weeeeelllllll, problematic. Challenging. You know. Ahem." Maneuver your eyebrows meaningfully as needed to convey the missing nouns and verbs.
posted by desuetude at 10:58 PM on December 16, 2010
Exactly, but moreso. You don't have to actually spill the details or make any specific accusations. Best not, it'll sound like sour grapes anyway.
But you can answer that question with "Weeeeelllllll, problematic. Challenging. You know. Ahem." Maneuver your eyebrows meaningfully as needed to convey the missing nouns and verbs.
posted by desuetude at 10:58 PM on December 16, 2010
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posted by sswiller at 12:43 PM on December 16, 2010