I snooped & found friends hate me. Now what?
November 19, 2010 9:16 AM Subscribe
I read my friend's email. I found out that she's really, really disliked me for the past, oh, ten years at least. Don't know what to do.
Yes, I'm aware that I'm horrible for reading her email. How it happened: She had used my laptop recently and had logged into her hotmail account. A few days later I went to use MY hotmail account and there was no login page. I figured I had just forgotten to logout last time and was confused about why an email I had sent recently was in my hotmail inbox. (I rarely use the hotmail account.) My hotmail had been compromised recently and I'd changed the password... I was worried that it was somehow compromised again or something weird like that. As I'm staring at the page trying to figure out how I would have received my own message sent from another account, I realize that it's my friends account. I realize this when I see that one of the other emails on the page has a subject line that's disparaging me. I read it... and so on... The emails went back 10 years with some huge gaps.
Background: She's the "leader" of a group of friends that has been together since around 1988. There's about 8 of us who are "core" members of the group. I am **deeply** integrated into her family -- her mom and dad and uncles and aunts as well as her immediate family, husband and three kids. I love her 3 kids more than just about anyone else on earth and they're not old enough to be faking their love for me. (And she has often asked me to babysit or otherwise help out w/her kids... especially when it's a last minute thing.)
On the other hand, she and others in our group apparently find me annoying beyond belief. I have no excuse for that... I had no idea. Maybe I *am* intolerable, but I'm still devastated.
Any advice? Anything at all? I don't know what to do. Or not do. I'm lost.
Thanks.
Yes, I'm aware that I'm horrible for reading her email. How it happened: She had used my laptop recently and had logged into her hotmail account. A few days later I went to use MY hotmail account and there was no login page. I figured I had just forgotten to logout last time and was confused about why an email I had sent recently was in my hotmail inbox. (I rarely use the hotmail account.) My hotmail had been compromised recently and I'd changed the password... I was worried that it was somehow compromised again or something weird like that. As I'm staring at the page trying to figure out how I would have received my own message sent from another account, I realize that it's my friends account. I realize this when I see that one of the other emails on the page has a subject line that's disparaging me. I read it... and so on... The emails went back 10 years with some huge gaps.
Background: She's the "leader" of a group of friends that has been together since around 1988. There's about 8 of us who are "core" members of the group. I am **deeply** integrated into her family -- her mom and dad and uncles and aunts as well as her immediate family, husband and three kids. I love her 3 kids more than just about anyone else on earth and they're not old enough to be faking their love for me. (And she has often asked me to babysit or otherwise help out w/her kids... especially when it's a last minute thing.)
On the other hand, she and others in our group apparently find me annoying beyond belief. I have no excuse for that... I had no idea. Maybe I *am* intolerable, but I'm still devastated.
Any advice? Anything at all? I don't know what to do. Or not do. I'm lost.
Thanks.
You have a mess on your hands.... There is no way to deal with this without letting her know you read TEN YEARS worth of her personal e/mail. Ask her forgiveness, accept her response, and if she doesn't dump you at that point, ask how you might change to be less annoying.
in the meantime, I would start looking for new friends.
posted by HuronBob at 9:19 AM on November 19, 2010
in the meantime, I would start looking for new friends.
posted by HuronBob at 9:19 AM on November 19, 2010
Congratulations, you're friends with a staggering hypocrit. I think your culpability for your "snooping" can be ameliorated by the fact your frenemy imposed upon someone she has been actively badmouthing (you) to check email.
In your shoes I would simply cease to be a resource for the offending person. You owe no explanation to this vile human. Simply maintin your relationships with the family members who are geniune with you and rapidly taper off any further contact with the bad-mouther.
posted by BigLankyBastard at 9:25 AM on November 19, 2010 [12 favorites]
In your shoes I would simply cease to be a resource for the offending person. You owe no explanation to this vile human. Simply maintin your relationships with the family members who are geniune with you and rapidly taper off any further contact with the bad-mouther.
posted by BigLankyBastard at 9:25 AM on November 19, 2010 [12 favorites]
I don't think there's any good way to tell her what happened. I imagine she's now going to find you creepy and untrustworthy in addition to "annoying" - leading to a possibly traumatic blowout fight that won't help anything. Better to save yourself the trouble and start disconnecting yourself. I know "find new friends" is much easier said than done but there's no point being friends with people who don't value you.
[I'm not saying you shouldn't have done what you did, I'm just guessing at what's going to happen.]
posted by amethysts at 9:26 AM on November 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
[I'm not saying you shouldn't have done what you did, I'm just guessing at what's going to happen.]
posted by amethysts at 9:26 AM on November 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
I agree with gadha. And even though it was really wrong of you to read those emails, I feel for you... and her kids. She and the group of friends who made those awful remarks behind your back -- for over ten fucking years -- must be really horrible, petty people. You'll be much better off without them.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 9:26 AM on November 19, 2010
posted by LuckySeven~ at 9:26 AM on November 19, 2010
How frequent were these negative emails? I mean, if you read 10 years' worth it can't have been a daily or even weekly thing, right? Sometimes people who know each other well get annoyed with each other. Sometimes it makes more sense to let off steam with a 3rd party, to avoid jeopardizing a friendship that really is valued. "I had a great afternoon hanging out with INTPLibrarian" doesn't make for an interesting email, so nobody sends that kind of thing. "OMG, guess how annoying INTPLibrarian was today" makes for more interesting conversation, but that doesn't mean it reflects your friend's overall opinion of you.
I'm not saying your friend isn't a jerk, or that you shouldn't find new friends. I'm just saying that there might be other ways of viewing this. It's hard to know, without knowing the exact nature and frequency of the emails. Only you can judge.
posted by vytae at 9:26 AM on November 19, 2010 [30 favorites]
I'm not saying your friend isn't a jerk, or that you shouldn't find new friends. I'm just saying that there might be other ways of viewing this. It's hard to know, without knowing the exact nature and frequency of the emails. Only you can judge.
posted by vytae at 9:26 AM on November 19, 2010 [30 favorites]
Admit to yourself that regardless of her actual reasons for "really, really disliking" you, the fact that you've invaded her privacy would be reason enough. And the fact that she doesn't like you, and has been disparaging you behind your back, is reason enough to really, really dislike her, too.
Friendship over. Disengage and let it wither.
And, ffs, stop reading her emails.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:29 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Friendship over. Disengage and let it wither.
And, ffs, stop reading her emails.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:29 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Despite finding you annoying beyond belief, for some reason this woman and her friends have perpetuated the pretence of liking you, and have included you in their group, so either you do have some redeeming qualities, or you are being exploited in some way, perhaps just as a babysitter. Personally I could not accept that much dishonesty. They might have perfectly legitimate reasons to be annoyed with you, but they should not have concealed their annoyance. They could have either requested some suitable change in what you are doing, or if they didn't think that this was practical, they could have stopped associating with you; either of those would have been an honest response.
While it could be argued that you had no right to read this woman's email, that doesn't really change anything. The problem still exists, regardless of how you learned about it. I don't think that there is any way to trust people who have been so dishonest with you, and therefore you should just stop associating with them. Admittedly, this would not be easy to do given that the woman's 3 kids are the people whom you love more than anyone else on Earth. It's like a painful divorce with a custody battle, except that since this isn't really a divorce, you can't ask for custody. Perhaps your great love for her children indicates that you have emotional needs that are best satisfied by parenthood; can you plan to have a family of your own? Your own children would probably turn out to be at least as lovable as hers.
posted by grizzled at 9:33 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
While it could be argued that you had no right to read this woman's email, that doesn't really change anything. The problem still exists, regardless of how you learned about it. I don't think that there is any way to trust people who have been so dishonest with you, and therefore you should just stop associating with them. Admittedly, this would not be easy to do given that the woman's 3 kids are the people whom you love more than anyone else on Earth. It's like a painful divorce with a custody battle, except that since this isn't really a divorce, you can't ask for custody. Perhaps your great love for her children indicates that you have emotional needs that are best satisfied by parenthood; can you plan to have a family of your own? Your own children would probably turn out to be at least as lovable as hers.
posted by grizzled at 9:33 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm not entirely sure what you should do -- I can be pretty clueless with how to deal with situations like this myself, so it would be pretty presumptuous of me to advise someone else.
That said: keep in mind that she has made the ongoing decision to keep you in her life. Yes, there may be things you do that frustrate her. But she has kids, a husband, a big group of friends -- it would've been very easy for her to have drifted away from you if that was what she wanted.
We all have friends who do things that drive us crazy. Venting about those things in private is sometimes a necessary part of maintaining the friendship. When I have a problem with a friend of mine that's big enough to drive me crazy but not something I actually feel like I can ask them to change, sometimes I'll talk to a mutual friend to get the irritation out of my system. That doesn't mean I secretly hate the crazy-making friend. It just means they did a crazy-making thing.
It sucks that you had to witness that venting, because of course it wasn't EVER meant to be something you'd see. And if you ultimately decide you can't face this friend of yours again because of what she said, I can't really blame you. But if you have reason to think that this woman and her family really do care about you, and you can see evidence in her actions that she's actively keeping you in her life, it may be worth trying to put this incident out of your mind and move forward as if you hadn't ever snooped through her email.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 9:34 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
That said: keep in mind that she has made the ongoing decision to keep you in her life. Yes, there may be things you do that frustrate her. But she has kids, a husband, a big group of friends -- it would've been very easy for her to have drifted away from you if that was what she wanted.
We all have friends who do things that drive us crazy. Venting about those things in private is sometimes a necessary part of maintaining the friendship. When I have a problem with a friend of mine that's big enough to drive me crazy but not something I actually feel like I can ask them to change, sometimes I'll talk to a mutual friend to get the irritation out of my system. That doesn't mean I secretly hate the crazy-making friend. It just means they did a crazy-making thing.
It sucks that you had to witness that venting, because of course it wasn't EVER meant to be something you'd see. And if you ultimately decide you can't face this friend of yours again because of what she said, I can't really blame you. But if you have reason to think that this woman and her family really do care about you, and you can see evidence in her actions that she's actively keeping you in her life, it may be worth trying to put this incident out of your mind and move forward as if you hadn't ever snooped through her email.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 9:34 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Does your friend talk a lot of shit in general? Does she talk to you about other people? This is just how some people are. What do you have to gain by confronting her? More than likely you won't feel better. I would maintain a cool relationship, forget about spending a lot of one on one time and sharing personal info. This way you may be able to remain friendly with her family.
posted by mokeydraws at 9:34 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by mokeydraws at 9:34 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
She's the "leader" of a group of friends that has been together since around 1988.
What, is this Heathers? "Leader" my ass. What kind of leader spends ten years griping behind your back instead of addressing whatever it is that bothers her so much? Is it because she needs a cheap babysitter? Because she actually does like you but needs to feel important by badmouthing you to other people? Whatever the reason, it doesn't matter - you don't need someone like that in your life.
You ought to just drop all contact with her entirely. I wouldn't even bother with a fade-out. Just leave this catty backstabber behind. Find some friends who respect you and are maybe adults, unlike this maturity stunted cheerleader you're dealing with. At most, I'd be tempted to send her an message to say, "You forgot to log out of your email on my computer, and I accidentally read your email. I apologize for that. In light of what I read, however, I suggest you try Craigslist the next time you need last minute help." And then go volunteer somewhere or go to a meetup or something. Do something positive to bring yourself out of this slump.
posted by katillathehun at 9:35 AM on November 19, 2010 [9 favorites]
What, is this Heathers? "Leader" my ass. What kind of leader spends ten years griping behind your back instead of addressing whatever it is that bothers her so much? Is it because she needs a cheap babysitter? Because she actually does like you but needs to feel important by badmouthing you to other people? Whatever the reason, it doesn't matter - you don't need someone like that in your life.
You ought to just drop all contact with her entirely. I wouldn't even bother with a fade-out. Just leave this catty backstabber behind. Find some friends who respect you and are maybe adults, unlike this maturity stunted cheerleader you're dealing with. At most, I'd be tempted to send her an message to say, "You forgot to log out of your email on my computer, and I accidentally read your email. I apologize for that. In light of what I read, however, I suggest you try Craigslist the next time you need last minute help." And then go volunteer somewhere or go to a meetup or something. Do something positive to bring yourself out of this slump.
posted by katillathehun at 9:35 AM on November 19, 2010 [9 favorites]
Best answer: As a not-so-proud member of the "I've totally been there" club, my first piece of advice is to start breathing. We're talking deep, soothing breaths, because a) you need them and b) you deserve them.
Next, prepare to disengage from this woman and her family for a week. Just a week. It will be hard. Don't jump to answer phone calls, don't respond to emails, and if anyone of the above individuals happens to catch you in person, politely, lovingly, but firmly say, "I am in the middle of a project that's got my mind all wrapped up. Can we catch up some other time when I can give you more of my attention?". If the kids want to talk to you, tell them you love them but you are, as you told their parents/relatives/friends/etc, in the middle of a big thing that you need to focus on for a while, and you don't want to shortchange them by giving them only half of your attention. Ultimately, none of this is a lie: you are in the process of, well, processing what's just happened, and as Blindsided-Person-Numero-Uno, you are allowed to give everyone a bland, but firm send off for now.
Next, get yourself to do some fun, enriching things. Whatever your bliss is, go after it. Pursue it for a week. Work hard, play hard, rest up. Say to yourself when you think of this situation, "I am not going to work through this until I have worked out my mind, body and soul. And maybe my stomach, too." Then, find a time when you're alone, relaxed, and ready, and begin to deconstruct what's happened. Maintain the bland-mode for a while longer, if you have to. Just start a gentle, gentle freeze on all contacts until you can assess what it is that's gone on here that's lead to this deception and betrayal on her part. I wouldn't even discuss what's happened with any other person other than your spouse/partner. Keep your cards close to your chest, and let her do the talking. Notice the way she addresses you in person/email/on the phone. Assess the ways in which you can stay close to her family, but shine her on. Then, develop a battle plan.
For what it's worth, the last time I "discovered" something along these lines was when my friend purposefully left documents open on my cell phone and my computer so that I could find them. This was in middle school/high school. I'm now a young adult, and every now and then I run into someone who operates in this same way. It's about as elementary-school-stupid as you can possibly get, and it blows my mind that grown women still operate farcical relationships built on lies when at least one person in the partnership is fully and completely in it for all the right reasons (read: YOU.) Your so-called friend may be guilty of the same thing. I don't know. What I do know is that you have a right to be friends with someone who is not duplicitous, who does not disparage you behind your back, and most importantly, does not do all these things and still expect you to bend over backwards to take care of her progeny when you, in actuality, deserve far better than what she has to offer.
posted by patronuscharms at 9:35 AM on November 19, 2010 [24 favorites]
Next, prepare to disengage from this woman and her family for a week. Just a week. It will be hard. Don't jump to answer phone calls, don't respond to emails, and if anyone of the above individuals happens to catch you in person, politely, lovingly, but firmly say, "I am in the middle of a project that's got my mind all wrapped up. Can we catch up some other time when I can give you more of my attention?". If the kids want to talk to you, tell them you love them but you are, as you told their parents/relatives/friends/etc, in the middle of a big thing that you need to focus on for a while, and you don't want to shortchange them by giving them only half of your attention. Ultimately, none of this is a lie: you are in the process of, well, processing what's just happened, and as Blindsided-Person-Numero-Uno, you are allowed to give everyone a bland, but firm send off for now.
Next, get yourself to do some fun, enriching things. Whatever your bliss is, go after it. Pursue it for a week. Work hard, play hard, rest up. Say to yourself when you think of this situation, "I am not going to work through this until I have worked out my mind, body and soul. And maybe my stomach, too." Then, find a time when you're alone, relaxed, and ready, and begin to deconstruct what's happened. Maintain the bland-mode for a while longer, if you have to. Just start a gentle, gentle freeze on all contacts until you can assess what it is that's gone on here that's lead to this deception and betrayal on her part. I wouldn't even discuss what's happened with any other person other than your spouse/partner. Keep your cards close to your chest, and let her do the talking. Notice the way she addresses you in person/email/on the phone. Assess the ways in which you can stay close to her family, but shine her on. Then, develop a battle plan.
For what it's worth, the last time I "discovered" something along these lines was when my friend purposefully left documents open on my cell phone and my computer so that I could find them. This was in middle school/high school. I'm now a young adult, and every now and then I run into someone who operates in this same way. It's about as elementary-school-stupid as you can possibly get, and it blows my mind that grown women still operate farcical relationships built on lies when at least one person in the partnership is fully and completely in it for all the right reasons (read: YOU.) Your so-called friend may be guilty of the same thing. I don't know. What I do know is that you have a right to be friends with someone who is not duplicitous, who does not disparage you behind your back, and most importantly, does not do all these things and still expect you to bend over backwards to take care of her progeny when you, in actuality, deserve far better than what she has to offer.
posted by patronuscharms at 9:35 AM on November 19, 2010 [24 favorites]
I've accidentally read email that wasn't intended for me, but was hurtful to me.
I knew if I didn't say something it would eat at me or cause all kinds of weird behaviour. I wound up bringing this up with the person. It was important to set straight that: a) I wasn't in the habit of reading their email; b) how I came about to read it; and c) how I felt about it. It was an opportunity to clear the air and, in the end, we both felt better for it.
posted by mazola at 9:37 AM on November 19, 2010
I knew if I didn't say something it would eat at me or cause all kinds of weird behaviour. I wound up bringing this up with the person. It was important to set straight that: a) I wasn't in the habit of reading their email; b) how I came about to read it; and c) how I felt about it. It was an opportunity to clear the air and, in the end, we both felt better for it.
posted by mazola at 9:37 AM on November 19, 2010
This is just weird. Ten years of dislike and you had no idea. In what context do they supposedly find you annoying? Really, if they cared about you at all, you'd think they would have brought up aspects of your personality that they feel you could use some work on. I'd hope my friends would speak up and try to help me become a better person. Saying nothing for 10 years and just gossiping about you behind your back is pretty shitty of them, and warrants some confrontation - don't just brush this aside and carry on.
I'd go to one of your other friends in the "core 8" that you feel you can trust, and bring this up, get a feel for wtf has been going on from an outside perspective. Since you don't provide a ton of detail on the dynamics of this group's interactions, I think talking with more trusted individuals is a must.
posted by lizbunny at 9:37 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'd go to one of your other friends in the "core 8" that you feel you can trust, and bring this up, get a feel for wtf has been going on from an outside perspective. Since you don't provide a ton of detail on the dynamics of this group's interactions, I think talking with more trusted individuals is a must.
posted by lizbunny at 9:37 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Under any other circumstances I'd ask what you think you're going to accomplish with a confrontation, but in this specific set of shitty-friend shitty-security circumstances, I say tell her. Hell, I'd ask her if she was trying to make sure you saw it (since the recipients never told you about it, even after 10 years; maybe she was tired of waiting). In any case, tell her you saw it and now you know what kind of person she is and what your relationship is and that you'll be taking that information into consideration in future interactions. It's not your problem whether she learns to be a grown up human being after that, but at least you'll have given her the growth opportunity.
How awful for you, I'm so sorry.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:38 AM on November 19, 2010
How awful for you, I'm so sorry.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:38 AM on November 19, 2010
You should bear in mind the possibility that she does actually really care about you despite finding you really annoying at times. I've been around that dynamic before, where friends A and B are really close friends who care about each other, but habitually get on each others nerves and feel the need to periodically vent to me about how the other is driving them crazy. Sometimes it's precisely because they're so close that they are capable of annoying each other so much.
One way to judge that is whether she's been a good friend to you over these years. Does she give you encouragement when you're down? Invite you to partake in mutual activities? Lend you practical help when you need a hand? If so, the likelihood is that she likes you enough to put up with your annoying aspects and just needs to blow off steam periodically. (Or possibly, from what you've said, she actually considers you part of her extended family. Often family members are the ones who can make us craziest, even though we love them.)
posted by tdismukes at 9:38 AM on November 19, 2010 [42 favorites]
One way to judge that is whether she's been a good friend to you over these years. Does she give you encouragement when you're down? Invite you to partake in mutual activities? Lend you practical help when you need a hand? If so, the likelihood is that she likes you enough to put up with your annoying aspects and just needs to blow off steam periodically. (Or possibly, from what you've said, she actually considers you part of her extended family. Often family members are the ones who can make us craziest, even though we love them.)
posted by tdismukes at 9:38 AM on November 19, 2010 [42 favorites]
Without knowing what you read, it's hard to be sure, but honestly I would try to let this go. The longer you know someone and the closer you are to them, the more likely you are to have grievances and bitch about them. When you love someone like family, you get more comfortable considering their flaws because it's assumed to be a sort of given that you also actually really do love them. I'm sure my close friends say god knows WHAT about me -- they're in a unique position to see all the cracks in my facade. What's important is that they love me enough to deal with me anyway.
Those emails were never meant for your eyes. You have no way of appreciating the context they were sent in, and you surely won't get an honest answer if you come forward and discuss it.
If someone acts like they want to be friends with you, in person, to their face, it's best to accept that as reality. Everything else is just words floating around out there that you were never meant to hear anyways.
posted by hermitosis at 9:40 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Those emails were never meant for your eyes. You have no way of appreciating the context they were sent in, and you surely won't get an honest answer if you come forward and discuss it.
If someone acts like they want to be friends with you, in person, to their face, it's best to accept that as reality. Everything else is just words floating around out there that you were never meant to hear anyways.
posted by hermitosis at 9:40 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
FWIW I always like honesty. Simply tell her you opened your hotmail account which in fact was her hotmail account that she hadn't signed out of, you saw an email with your name on it, curious you read it, and were appalled at what she had to say about you. You don't have to tell her you read TEN YEARS worth of email, however. Then tell her you simply won't be friends anymore with someone who bad mouths you like that. End of friendship, end of story. At least she won't be wondering what happened and if there is a way to air your grievances and stay friends, this confrontation may provide the way to do it.
posted by MsKim at 9:41 AM on November 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by MsKim at 9:41 AM on November 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
Can't say I agree with the above posters. To me, you've got three things to think about:
1. You really are not a good person and your friend is right for disparaging you.
2. You are not a bad person and your friend speaks ill of you because some deficiency on her part (she's jealous of your or unhappy with her own lot in life, etc etc.).
3. Neither of the above is true and you two are just not "meant to be" friends.
If the first is true, you should take steps towards making right what's wrong with you. Doing so properly will affect all aspects of your life with everyone you interact with, regardless of your current status with them. This will be difficult, but possible if you're diligent.
If the second is true, your options are two-fold. First, gauge whether helping your friend help herself with her life is possible. If it isn't, your relationship will continue as it is now--with her disliking you and you as "oblivious" to this as you can be, given the circumstances. If it is possible for you to help her, it's more than likely that as her life improves and she sees your enthusiasm for this, your relationship will improve.
If the third thing is true... well, there's nothing that can be done. You'll confront her and she'll think even less of you... but since she hasn't broken off a relationship yet with someone she claims to despise, she probably doesn't have the power or self-will to do it at all. Things will continue as is, but with your knowledge that she dislikes you and her knowledge that you snooped. That's a +1 for seething all 'round.
My opinion is that if it's number 3 then you should keep your mouth shut and refer to the solution for #1. Your relationships with everyone else will improve and the lack you feel regarding trust and friendship with this woman will become insignificant given enough time.
posted by dobbs at 9:41 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
1. You really are not a good person and your friend is right for disparaging you.
2. You are not a bad person and your friend speaks ill of you because some deficiency on her part (she's jealous of your or unhappy with her own lot in life, etc etc.).
3. Neither of the above is true and you two are just not "meant to be" friends.
If the first is true, you should take steps towards making right what's wrong with you. Doing so properly will affect all aspects of your life with everyone you interact with, regardless of your current status with them. This will be difficult, but possible if you're diligent.
If the second is true, your options are two-fold. First, gauge whether helping your friend help herself with her life is possible. If it isn't, your relationship will continue as it is now--with her disliking you and you as "oblivious" to this as you can be, given the circumstances. If it is possible for you to help her, it's more than likely that as her life improves and she sees your enthusiasm for this, your relationship will improve.
If the third thing is true... well, there's nothing that can be done. You'll confront her and she'll think even less of you... but since she hasn't broken off a relationship yet with someone she claims to despise, she probably doesn't have the power or self-will to do it at all. Things will continue as is, but with your knowledge that she dislikes you and her knowledge that you snooped. That's a +1 for seething all 'round.
My opinion is that if it's number 3 then you should keep your mouth shut and refer to the solution for #1. Your relationships with everyone else will improve and the lack you feel regarding trust and friendship with this woman will become insignificant given enough time.
posted by dobbs at 9:41 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Oh, and my suspicion is that when you read her emails, she listed specific things she dislikes about you. Whether you agree with those things is a good metric for whether it's #1 or #2.
posted by dobbs at 9:44 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by dobbs at 9:44 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm in the camp of people who are saying that maybe they've only found you annoying at times. I've found a lot of my good friends annoying at times and I have told my other friends about this annoyance. I get over it, and realize that while these people may annoy me at times, they really are my good friends. Most of the time they are not annoying, and most of the time I am grateful for their friendship.
I fully expect I have annoyed them at times. I can't imagine that I haven't.
As was said above, if you read 10 years of emails "with huge gaps" (your words), there could be years where they never found you annoying at all. How many emails, roughly, did you actually get to read?
Lastly, few things are more annoying than someone asking "am I annoying", so tread lightly if you ask other people in the core 8 of the group what is going on.
posted by King Bee at 9:46 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I fully expect I have annoyed them at times. I can't imagine that I haven't.
As was said above, if you read 10 years of emails "with huge gaps" (your words), there could be years where they never found you annoying at all. How many emails, roughly, did you actually get to read?
Lastly, few things are more annoying than someone asking "am I annoying", so tread lightly if you ask other people in the core 8 of the group what is going on.
posted by King Bee at 9:46 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Still going through the answers here, but I want to make it clear that I'm NOT asking for forgiveness for reading her emails. I wish I hadn't and NOT just because of what I've found out. I know that was wrong and I feel like shit for having done it.
posted by INTPLibrarian at 9:46 AM on November 19, 2010
posted by INTPLibrarian at 9:46 AM on November 19, 2010
Wait, this doesn't have to be as bad as you think.
I have a close friend who is frequently annoying, to me and to others. He's one of those people who just doesn't know when to quit. Everyone who knows him knows this about him. And he has many friends who sometimes find him too much to take, and they fade out for a while, and most of the time come back into the picture later, after they've had a chance to cool off or just decided to ignore it. I'm one of these people as well. If you were to look at my mail from the last few years, you would find a few mails about him where I discussed how damn annoying he'd been.
But you know what? I still care about him and like spending time with him probably 80-90% of the time. Your friend could feel exactly the same about you.
I find it highly unlikely that she has actively disliked you for 10 years. There's just no way you'd still be so enmeshed in her and her family's lives, and you know what? She certainly would not be asking you to babysit her kids on a regular basis if she just couldn't stand you. Once, twice - maybe. Not several times over the years.
It sounds to me that you have some behaviors that she finds annoying but overall she still values you. If it were me, I would have a conversation with her. You don't have to mention that you read her mail (I wouldn't), you can just start a conversation about friendship in general and you can say that someone (else) hinted that you had annoying behaviors. Tell her you have a feeling that she might, too, and ask her what those behaviors are.
Then it is entirely up to you to decide what to do with that information. You don't have to change a thing about yourself unless you want to. And if, upon reflection, you find that this behavior is something that's keeping you from forming or keeping the relationships you'd like, then you can do something about them. Or, you can decide that you like yourself just fine the way you are, thank you very much, and see about making other friends who do not find your behavior annoying. Totally up to you. But you can't make an informed decision about this until you've gotten to the bottom of the issue.
It's devastating to find out something like this, particularly from a long-term friend, and in such a negative way. But don't make it something bigger than it has to be. Good luck!
posted by widdershins at 9:49 AM on November 19, 2010 [11 favorites]
I have a close friend who is frequently annoying, to me and to others. He's one of those people who just doesn't know when to quit. Everyone who knows him knows this about him. And he has many friends who sometimes find him too much to take, and they fade out for a while, and most of the time come back into the picture later, after they've had a chance to cool off or just decided to ignore it. I'm one of these people as well. If you were to look at my mail from the last few years, you would find a few mails about him where I discussed how damn annoying he'd been.
But you know what? I still care about him and like spending time with him probably 80-90% of the time. Your friend could feel exactly the same about you.
I find it highly unlikely that she has actively disliked you for 10 years. There's just no way you'd still be so enmeshed in her and her family's lives, and you know what? She certainly would not be asking you to babysit her kids on a regular basis if she just couldn't stand you. Once, twice - maybe. Not several times over the years.
It sounds to me that you have some behaviors that she finds annoying but overall she still values you. If it were me, I would have a conversation with her. You don't have to mention that you read her mail (I wouldn't), you can just start a conversation about friendship in general and you can say that someone (else) hinted that you had annoying behaviors. Tell her you have a feeling that she might, too, and ask her what those behaviors are.
Then it is entirely up to you to decide what to do with that information. You don't have to change a thing about yourself unless you want to. And if, upon reflection, you find that this behavior is something that's keeping you from forming or keeping the relationships you'd like, then you can do something about them. Or, you can decide that you like yourself just fine the way you are, thank you very much, and see about making other friends who do not find your behavior annoying. Totally up to you. But you can't make an informed decision about this until you've gotten to the bottom of the issue.
It's devastating to find out something like this, particularly from a long-term friend, and in such a negative way. But don't make it something bigger than it has to be. Good luck!
posted by widdershins at 9:49 AM on November 19, 2010 [11 favorites]
I'm sorry for what you're going through. This must be a surreal experience.
Without knowing the nature of the emails or complaints about you, one thing came to my mind. It might be possible that this person does truly value you as a friend, but finds somethings about you annoying. Her way of dealing with that isn't a very good or mature one— she gossips behind your back. I know that I'll talk about a particular annoying tick a friend has with other people and it is a form of a shared endearment. I would be pretty embarrassed if those conversations were ever made known to my friend and I wouldn't want to hurt my friend. I would readily want to explain my self and be very apologetic, even if my privacy was violated.
Of course, theres a line between letting off some "geeze, I cant believe Bob did annoying thing X today. Hah, that's so like Bob" and "welcome to the weekly meeting of the Bob Hating Society, where we trick Bob into thinking we're his friends for our amusement and free childcare."
I think you're in the position to be able to make that call. Is this a more innocent or malicious? Remember its hard to read emotion in email, and there maybe an amount of exaggeration going on to be more "entertaining". I'm inclined to say you owe your friend the opportunity to explain herself. If she's the type to blow things up, and your other friends are going to follow her lead on an issue like this, a slow fade out might be better than a gentle confrontation.
No one is perfect, and the best we can expect from friends that they accept us as the flawed people we are and still care for us even though we might drive them nuts some times.
posted by fontophilic at 9:49 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Without knowing the nature of the emails or complaints about you, one thing came to my mind. It might be possible that this person does truly value you as a friend, but finds somethings about you annoying. Her way of dealing with that isn't a very good or mature one— she gossips behind your back. I know that I'll talk about a particular annoying tick a friend has with other people and it is a form of a shared endearment. I would be pretty embarrassed if those conversations were ever made known to my friend and I wouldn't want to hurt my friend. I would readily want to explain my self and be very apologetic, even if my privacy was violated.
Of course, theres a line between letting off some "geeze, I cant believe Bob did annoying thing X today. Hah, that's so like Bob" and "welcome to the weekly meeting of the Bob Hating Society, where we trick Bob into thinking we're his friends for our amusement and free childcare."
I think you're in the position to be able to make that call. Is this a more innocent or malicious? Remember its hard to read emotion in email, and there maybe an amount of exaggeration going on to be more "entertaining". I'm inclined to say you owe your friend the opportunity to explain herself. If she's the type to blow things up, and your other friends are going to follow her lead on an issue like this, a slow fade out might be better than a gentle confrontation.
No one is perfect, and the best we can expect from friends that they accept us as the flawed people we are and still care for us even though we might drive them nuts some times.
posted by fontophilic at 9:49 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
she and others in our group apparently find me annoying beyond belief. I have no excuse for that... I had no idea. Maybe I *am* intolerable, but I'm still devastated.
Hrm. I can imagine how much this must be devastating for you, and how you must be second guessing every little thing you do right now. I wish I could give you a big hug.
I don't think she hates you. As just about everyone else has said above, I think that probably she loves parts of you and is annoyed by other parts. Kind of like how siblings sometimes are. I don't have siblings, but my husband does, and he complains about how annoying they are all the time. Yet he also sees at least one of them almost every day and would go to the ends of the earth for them.
I'm going to suggest another approach that might be kind of controversial here, but it worked well for a friend of mine after she discovered that a big group of her friends had been talking about her annoying behaviors behind her back.
Note: do this only if you really think you might have been annoying -- basically, if you think she sort of has a point -- and want to preserve the friendship.
Take this woman to lunch or dinner. At the meal, say to her: "Friend, I find that I'm at a time in my life when I'm really trying to work on myself. I think, sometimes I do {thing} or {thing} and I'm being annoying or rude, but at the time I do it, I don't realize it. You're one of my best, closest friends. Can you help me learn to change my behavior? Would you be willing to take me aside and tell me when I'm doing these sorts of things, to help me be a better person and a better friend?"
Self-awareness can go far ... for both of you. If she's willing to talk to you directly about what's driving her crazy (I wish wish wish you'd given examples) that's certainly better for both of you than her talking about you behind your back...
I'm sorry this happened to you. But I hope you can find a way to talk with her about it.
posted by anastasiav at 9:50 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Hrm. I can imagine how much this must be devastating for you, and how you must be second guessing every little thing you do right now. I wish I could give you a big hug.
I don't think she hates you. As just about everyone else has said above, I think that probably she loves parts of you and is annoyed by other parts. Kind of like how siblings sometimes are. I don't have siblings, but my husband does, and he complains about how annoying they are all the time. Yet he also sees at least one of them almost every day and would go to the ends of the earth for them.
I'm going to suggest another approach that might be kind of controversial here, but it worked well for a friend of mine after she discovered that a big group of her friends had been talking about her annoying behaviors behind her back.
Note: do this only if you really think you might have been annoying -- basically, if you think she sort of has a point -- and want to preserve the friendship.
Take this woman to lunch or dinner. At the meal, say to her: "Friend, I find that I'm at a time in my life when I'm really trying to work on myself. I think, sometimes I do {thing} or {thing} and I'm being annoying or rude, but at the time I do it, I don't realize it. You're one of my best, closest friends. Can you help me learn to change my behavior? Would you be willing to take me aside and tell me when I'm doing these sorts of things, to help me be a better person and a better friend?"
Self-awareness can go far ... for both of you. If she's willing to talk to you directly about what's driving her crazy (I wish wish wish you'd given examples) that's certainly better for both of you than her talking about you behind your back...
I'm sorry this happened to you. But I hope you can find a way to talk with her about it.
posted by anastasiav at 9:50 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Reply to vytae: It wasn't entirely 10 years. There are emails from 10 years ago and then a huge gap. But, the complaints were much more about ME than about an incident here and there. But, that's a really good point. I was kind of pissed that the friends she'd sent these emails to never said anything, but even just this comment makes me realize that's not fair.
Thanks.
posted by INTPLibrarian at 9:50 AM on November 19, 2010
Thanks.
posted by INTPLibrarian at 9:50 AM on November 19, 2010
Response by poster: I can't remember if there's a way to directly respond to a comment, so I apologize if posting at the end isn't correct.
katillathehun: I used "leader" because we're a group of friends that has been together for over 20 years. There are a few of us (including myself) who do the most to keep us all together. She does it more than anyone. I think of it kind of like a grandparent who keeps all the family activity going on for years.
posted by INTPLibrarian at 10:03 AM on November 19, 2010
katillathehun: I used "leader" because we're a group of friends that has been together for over 20 years. There are a few of us (including myself) who do the most to keep us all together. She does it more than anyone. I think of it kind of like a grandparent who keeps all the family activity going on for years.
posted by INTPLibrarian at 10:03 AM on November 19, 2010
My closest friend is someone with whom I've had the biggest fights and also someone that sometimes, I find annoying. But if I didn't care about her, she couldn't annoy me.
We've been friends for ten years. I assume that she thinks I'm a giant, horrifying, pushy-ass bitch, but I also assume that she knows my pushy-ass bitchness is associated with wanting the best for her.
It's perfectly possible that this person likes you - loves you even - but sometimes has to vent about the things about you that drive her up the wall. I would be forced to wonder if Mother Teresa didn't have the same problem with someone - no one is a perfect friend or a perfect person.
If you feel like you have to bring it up and you can't go on, then MsKim has the approach I'd take. Otherwise, the time-told slow fade works fine (and she will or won't follow up with you to find out where you've been, which will be telling).
posted by Medieval Maven at 10:04 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
We've been friends for ten years. I assume that she thinks I'm a giant, horrifying, pushy-ass bitch, but I also assume that she knows my pushy-ass bitchness is associated with wanting the best for her.
It's perfectly possible that this person likes you - loves you even - but sometimes has to vent about the things about you that drive her up the wall. I would be forced to wonder if Mother Teresa didn't have the same problem with someone - no one is a perfect friend or a perfect person.
If you feel like you have to bring it up and you can't go on, then MsKim has the approach I'd take. Otherwise, the time-told slow fade works fine (and she will or won't follow up with you to find out where you've been, which will be telling).
posted by Medieval Maven at 10:04 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I find some people both really annoying and really wonderful. She trusts you with her kids and has never treated you badly so maybe she thinks of you like that.
Also - you did not say if she is complaining about specific small things about you or something general, and whether it is crazy whiny complaining or logical criticism. If it is clearly crazy ranting or just mild whiny complaints then I would try to ignore it, but if it is something else and very serious then maybe you will probably need to take some action like confronting her or cutting her out of your life.
posted by meepmeow at 10:05 AM on November 19, 2010
Also - you did not say if she is complaining about specific small things about you or something general, and whether it is crazy whiny complaining or logical criticism. If it is clearly crazy ranting or just mild whiny complaints then I would try to ignore it, but if it is something else and very serious then maybe you will probably need to take some action like confronting her or cutting her out of your life.
posted by meepmeow at 10:05 AM on November 19, 2010
Response by poster: Another clarification: some of the things she said she was irritated about are things I would have simply stopped doing if she had let me know they were irritating instead of her encouraging me to continue doing them. For example, I frequently stop by her place just to say hi. I'm completely aware that this would be annoying for a lot of people. However, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 times I'd stop by she'd greet me with basically "Oh thank goodness you're here! Can you help me with... " or "I was just hoping you'd stop by soon..."
On the other hand, she had complaints about my saying I couldn't do something because of a chronic disease I have. As if I'd made it up. She didn't even get the name of the disorder correct.
I don't want to list a bunch of examples, but to me there's both the slightly annoying types of comments and the mean ones that are about the core of me.
THANK YOU very much for all the responses here. I really knew I needed an outside eye to give me some feedback and it's all very helpful.
posted by INTPLibrarian at 10:09 AM on November 19, 2010
On the other hand, she had complaints about my saying I couldn't do something because of a chronic disease I have. As if I'd made it up. She didn't even get the name of the disorder correct.
I don't want to list a bunch of examples, but to me there's both the slightly annoying types of comments and the mean ones that are about the core of me.
THANK YOU very much for all the responses here. I really knew I needed an outside eye to give me some feedback and it's all very helpful.
posted by INTPLibrarian at 10:09 AM on November 19, 2010
Response by poster: meepmeow: Ironically one of her comments was that she *doesn't* trust me with her kids but that I'm free and available at the very last minute. (FWIW, I've been working with small children, babysitting and working in a nursery/daycare for as long as I've been able to. I have *never* had a child injured while caring for them.)
posted by INTPLibrarian at 10:12 AM on November 19, 2010
posted by INTPLibrarian at 10:12 AM on November 19, 2010
Best answer: In some large social groups, there are going to be a couple people just aren't that well-liked, but no one wants to actively take steps to alienate/ostracize them, because those people are ultimately tolerable, probably kind of nice/mean well, and no one wants to create a big drama. I presume you all have something else in common like some shared background/experience that brought you all together in 1988, but no one wants to be the one to have a get-together and simply not invite you and then have to explain why. I'd distance yourself from this group and make an effort to find new friends or spend more time with old ones: this is a chance to form relationships with people based on genuine affection and shared interests rather than based on having been thrown together 22 years ago and continuing to stay in touch.
Does your friend talk a lot of shit in general? Does she talk to you about other people?
Someone who talks to you about how annoying other people are will eventually (if they're not already) talk to someone else about how annoying you are.
posted by deanc at 10:16 AM on November 19, 2010 [8 favorites]
Does your friend talk a lot of shit in general? Does she talk to you about other people?
Someone who talks to you about how annoying other people are will eventually (if they're not already) talk to someone else about how annoying you are.
posted by deanc at 10:16 AM on November 19, 2010 [8 favorites]
It wasn't entirely 10 years. There are emails from 10 years ago and then a huge gap. But, the complaints were much more about ME than about an incident here and there.
You're mad because someone was annoyed at something you did a decade ago, and then maybe something you did recently, but has been on good terms with you other than that?
That's an absolutely insane position to take.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 10:17 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
You're mad because someone was annoyed at something you did a decade ago, and then maybe something you did recently, but has been on good terms with you other than that?
That's an absolutely insane position to take.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 10:17 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I have to admit that the new information you've added in-thread makes this a little confusing. It sounded like she'd been talking about how she just can't stand you on a regular basis for ten years. Now it sounds like she maybe finds some of your quirks a little irritating sometimes and doesn't understand your disability. What exactly has she been saying?
posted by katillathehun at 10:24 AM on November 19, 2010
posted by katillathehun at 10:24 AM on November 19, 2010
In this situation I would probably withdraw somewhat from the group -- not in any overt, showy way. I would still be polite and responsive and act like nothing's changed, but I would just stop stopping by, stop calling, and stop initiating get-togethers. One of two things will happen: Either she/they stop contacting you as well, in which case I think you can safely conclude that there is no real point in continuing with the friendship, or (more likely) she/they will eventually contact you and ask you what's wrong, and why you seem to have disengaged. At that point I would say something like: "Well, I was just worried that I may come across as annoying or overly dependent on your friendship, so I thought it would be good for me to devote more time to other interests. I still want to be friends, but maybe in a different way." Her reaction to that would be informative.
Of course, part of me would just want to call her a duplicitous bitch, but I like to think I wouldn't let that part win.
posted by pardonyou? at 10:30 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Of course, part of me would just want to call her a duplicitous bitch, but I like to think I wouldn't let that part win.
posted by pardonyou? at 10:30 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
"I was kind of pissed that the friends she'd sent these emails to never said anything ..."
That's another point. Just because you didn't see a bunch of responses from the recipients of the e-mails defending you from whatever the complaints were, absolutely does not mean that your other friends hate you either. Other possibilities include:
posted by tdismukes at 10:36 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
That's another point. Just because you didn't see a bunch of responses from the recipients of the e-mails defending you from whatever the complaints were, absolutely does not mean that your other friends hate you either. Other possibilities include:
- the recipient saw the e-mail, thought "huh, I guess INTPLibrarian is prone to *particular annoying behavior*. I never really paid attention to it."
- the recipient saw the e-mail, thought "huh, I guess *friend sending e-mail* is having one of her cranky days where she complains about people. No point in talking to her until she calms down."
- the recipient did defend you, either in person or in a later e-mail that you didn't spot
- the recipient saw the e-mail, thought "yeah, INTPLibrarian can be really annoying. Good thing we love her so much, because I wouldn't put up from that crap from anyone else"
posted by tdismukes at 10:36 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
I was kind of pissed that the friends she'd sent these emails to never said anything, but even just this comment makes me realize that's not fair.
Right, when people talk shit to me about someone, I keep it to myself, even if I feel bad about what is being said. I also tell people that I don't feel comfortable talking about someone behind their back, so hopefully I avoid even being in that situation as much as possible. Because the alternative, telling someone "Hey, your friend friend was talking shit about you" is a great way to stir up unnecessary drama and insert myself into the middle of it.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:43 AM on November 19, 2010 [6 favorites]
Right, when people talk shit to me about someone, I keep it to myself, even if I feel bad about what is being said. I also tell people that I don't feel comfortable talking about someone behind their back, so hopefully I avoid even being in that situation as much as possible. Because the alternative, telling someone "Hey, your friend friend was talking shit about you" is a great way to stir up unnecessary drama and insert myself into the middle of it.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:43 AM on November 19, 2010 [6 favorites]
Especially with the new info you added, I'd have to agree with everyone who said that it might be just her venting. I have friends that I love and would consider family, but at times I do get annoyed with them (and I'm sure they are sometimes annoyed with me). Nobody's perfect, but when you love someone to a certain degree you can overlook those imperfections--or at least tolerate them--because you'd rather have them in your life than not. Personally I don't think I could maintain the pretense of being close friends (for years!) with someone I actively disliked. It's just too much work to invest in someone you don't care about. In this case I would say look at her actions rather than her words (especially if her words are spaced years apart).
Then again, if you know that this is something that's going to eat at you, it might be better to either 1) talk to her about it or 2) distance yourself. Otherwise it'll just keep poisoning the relationship and you'll be miserable.
PS I know you're not asking for forgiveness for reading the emails. They're not ever meant to be read by anyone but the writer and the recipient, and really, only those two people know what they actually mean (unless the emails you saw were really vile or vitriolic. I guess there is always a line that can be crossed). I never write any of my "friend-vents" in email (growing up in this day and age I'm all too aware of digital "paper-trails") but I tell my sister everything because I know she can keep my trust. I'm sure if some of my friends knew about some of the little vents they would feel hurt (who wouldn't?). But the point is they are NEVER meant to hear those things, because in my mind they aren't huge issues and don't affect my overall view of them.
posted by sprezzy at 10:46 AM on November 19, 2010
Then again, if you know that this is something that's going to eat at you, it might be better to either 1) talk to her about it or 2) distance yourself. Otherwise it'll just keep poisoning the relationship and you'll be miserable.
PS I know you're not asking for forgiveness for reading the emails. They're not ever meant to be read by anyone but the writer and the recipient, and really, only those two people know what they actually mean (unless the emails you saw were really vile or vitriolic. I guess there is always a line that can be crossed). I never write any of my "friend-vents" in email (growing up in this day and age I'm all too aware of digital "paper-trails") but I tell my sister everything because I know she can keep my trust. I'm sure if some of my friends knew about some of the little vents they would feel hurt (who wouldn't?). But the point is they are NEVER meant to hear those things, because in my mind they aren't huge issues and don't affect my overall view of them.
posted by sprezzy at 10:46 AM on November 19, 2010
You may not be able to do this, but I would blow this thing up as much as I could. You really have nothing to lose. Fuck her. I would call and demand she explain these emails. And if she says 'you read my e-mails?', I would say 'Fuck yes I read them. My name was all over them in big black bold letters saying how much you and others have hated me for the last ten fucking years. What's been the point of duping me for ten years, huh? So you could use me to babysit your kids? Put it on her. She is the one who was stupid enough to not logout. If I was you, I would have done exactly the same thing. You were just trying to protect yourself. The e-mails were obviously about you in a negative way. There is absolutely no need for you to apologize for this. In the end, she and the others might even respect you more for sticking up for yourself. Freinds since 1988. That's a lot of time and effort to just fade away. Either you go out in a blaze of glory or everyone realizes what assholes they have been and you can reset. Good Luck.
posted by repoman at 11:21 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by repoman at 11:21 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I dunno...the comments you mention all sound like they are about you doing something for her, and being somehow deficient in this.
Overall, are you sure she isn't just using you?
Other people have asked you this, earlier: What are you getting back? Does she support you?
posted by Omnomnom at 11:22 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Overall, are you sure she isn't just using you?
Other people have asked you this, earlier: What are you getting back? Does she support you?
posted by Omnomnom at 11:22 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Honestly, when I read your specific examples of things she'd said, my immediate reaction was, wow, what a bitch. And that's a word I seldom use. The onus was on her to let you know if stopping by casually was inconvenient, it's just plain nasty for her to use you for babysitting and then talk about you as though you aren't good enough to do so, and as for her complaining that you can't do stuff because you are chronically ill, I have not the words!
Dump this "friend". If she should ask you why, tell her what you read. And as for associating with the rest of this group, well, if you still want to, proceed with caution. You may have to tell people that they'll have to see the two of you separately because you don't wish to be included in any activity that also includes Miss Two Face.
I will say that I've been guilty of ranting about friends to other friends — but the listening friends were always *my* friends, not mutual friends. And eventually I smartened up and realized that if all I could do was complain about a "friend" and/or was going through the motions of friendship with the person, my association with him or her needed to end. In my good friendships I practically never have any complaints, and when and if I do I work it out with that person rather than uselessly and disloyally venting.
I'm sorry to hear you've been treated this way, and I know it'll be hard to disengage from this person when it means cutting yourself off from other people you care about, but I think it's what needs to happen here. It's a big, populous world, and there are other people who won't treat you this way if you take the time to find them and develop friendships with them.
posted by orange swan at 11:23 AM on November 19, 2010 [7 favorites]
Dump this "friend". If she should ask you why, tell her what you read. And as for associating with the rest of this group, well, if you still want to, proceed with caution. You may have to tell people that they'll have to see the two of you separately because you don't wish to be included in any activity that also includes Miss Two Face.
I will say that I've been guilty of ranting about friends to other friends — but the listening friends were always *my* friends, not mutual friends. And eventually I smartened up and realized that if all I could do was complain about a "friend" and/or was going through the motions of friendship with the person, my association with him or her needed to end. In my good friendships I practically never have any complaints, and when and if I do I work it out with that person rather than uselessly and disloyally venting.
I'm sorry to hear you've been treated this way, and I know it'll be hard to disengage from this person when it means cutting yourself off from other people you care about, but I think it's what needs to happen here. It's a big, populous world, and there are other people who won't treat you this way if you take the time to find them and develop friendships with them.
posted by orange swan at 11:23 AM on November 19, 2010 [7 favorites]
You know, sometimes I find my husband annoying. I write nasty things about him in emails to my best friends. It doesn't mean I don't love him, it just means I needed to blow off steam. I think, since you've been friends this long without knowing anything about the way this woman supposedly feels about you, you should just forget about it, and chalk it up to her venting.
In other words, what they said.
posted by dpx.mfx at 11:25 AM on November 19, 2010
In other words, what they said.
posted by dpx.mfx at 11:25 AM on November 19, 2010
I would pull back from the friendship without dropping her completely. Then observe her behavior when you're no longer available to do her favors like babysitting at the last minute. See if she seems to genuinely miss your friendship or just miss what you do for her. Then make up your mind whether to stay friends.
posted by hazyjane at 11:38 AM on November 19, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by hazyjane at 11:38 AM on November 19, 2010 [6 favorites]
From what you say, it appears your "friend" is acting in a very middle school type of way, and is just using you, while badmouthing you. Most people grow out of this by the time they're 14, but apparently, she hasn't. I know many people are trying to make excuses for her or put it in a different light, but frankly, I can't find any redeeming qualities. The things she said was not just a mere annoyance, but downright nasty. I also think you should stop feeing guilty about reading her emails. Sure, snooping is bad most of the time, but it seemed like an honest accident, and once you saw in the subjects your name and the terrible things she was saying, I don't think anyone but the saintliest of saints could resist checking it out. At this point, you were just watching out for yourself.
Personally, I would consider her no longer a friend and I would demand she explain herself. I would make it very clear how you came upon the emails (she didn't logout, you thought it was your email, etc). If you don't confront her, you might spend the rest of your life wondering about this. I think she needs to know that acting like a nasty, gossipy adolescent will not be tolerated, that what she did was terrible and should feel guilty, and you should be able to stand up for yourself. There's a chance she doesn't care, and will turn it around and tell all your other "friends" about how you snooped in her email, but you have nothing to lose at this point. I mean, can you really continue to hang out with these people at this point? However, maybe she does have a good response, or maybe she will feel guilty. I just think you need your chance to make a statement as opposed to quietly slinking away.
I would also consider if the other people in your group are still your friends. After speaking with her, I would talk to the other people individually, asking what they think about it. If you trust them, you can still maintain a relationship outside of group gatherings. Sometimes, it happens that the "leader" will badmouth others, and no one else stands up to her, but they might still like you.
I'm really sorry this happened... I had similar happen before (once, appropriately enough, in middle school, and once with my ex as a young adult). It's a surreal experience, and I really wish I had the strength to confront these people, ask them WHY, and stand up for myself. It'll be really hard, but hopefully, it'll answer some questions and give you peace of mind.
posted by lacedcoffee at 11:49 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Personally, I would consider her no longer a friend and I would demand she explain herself. I would make it very clear how you came upon the emails (she didn't logout, you thought it was your email, etc). If you don't confront her, you might spend the rest of your life wondering about this. I think she needs to know that acting like a nasty, gossipy adolescent will not be tolerated, that what she did was terrible and should feel guilty, and you should be able to stand up for yourself. There's a chance she doesn't care, and will turn it around and tell all your other "friends" about how you snooped in her email, but you have nothing to lose at this point. I mean, can you really continue to hang out with these people at this point? However, maybe she does have a good response, or maybe she will feel guilty. I just think you need your chance to make a statement as opposed to quietly slinking away.
I would also consider if the other people in your group are still your friends. After speaking with her, I would talk to the other people individually, asking what they think about it. If you trust them, you can still maintain a relationship outside of group gatherings. Sometimes, it happens that the "leader" will badmouth others, and no one else stands up to her, but they might still like you.
I'm really sorry this happened... I had similar happen before (once, appropriately enough, in middle school, and once with my ex as a young adult). It's a surreal experience, and I really wish I had the strength to confront these people, ask them WHY, and stand up for myself. It'll be really hard, but hopefully, it'll answer some questions and give you peace of mind.
posted by lacedcoffee at 11:49 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ironically one of her comments was that she *doesn't* trust me with her kids but that I'm free and available at the very last minute. (FWIW, I've been working with small children, babysitting and working in a nursery/daycare for as long as I've been able to. I have *never* had a child injured while caring for them.)
Whoa, whoa, whoa - this is psychotic, WTF? She's willing to leave her own kids with someone she "doesn't trust" out of convenience?
That alone wouold make me DTMFA, jeez. Not to mention how incredibly exploitative it is of you, my lord. Wow, I'm actually kind of stunned by this.
posted by tristeza at 11:53 AM on November 19, 2010 [18 favorites]
Whoa, whoa, whoa - this is psychotic, WTF? She's willing to leave her own kids with someone she "doesn't trust" out of convenience?
That alone wouold make me DTMFA, jeez. Not to mention how incredibly exploitative it is of you, my lord. Wow, I'm actually kind of stunned by this.
posted by tristeza at 11:53 AM on November 19, 2010 [18 favorites]
Ok. I'd offer a different view.
With email and IM, all of the nasty, venting things we say about one another are there for all eternity. There are a number of people - siblings, roommates, friends -- who I love, but who I've said, emailed, g-chatted bad things about. Including but not limited to: "I want to stab X in the face. Was s/he raised by wolves. I really can't stand them right now."
And these are people I really care about. But sometimes they make me crazy. And then I talk to my other friends about it. So, there are any number of people, who if they read all my email could come up with a "worst-of" that would make them recoil in horror. Despite the fact that I really love them. Sometimes because I really love them.
What I'm trying to say is this: try to view their actions/words in the light of human frailty, and passing frustrations. Don't attribute to malice, what can easily be fleeting irritation.
There are a lot of different standards/thresholds for how much or little these sort of relationship frustrations are discussed. I tend to talk about them more than most, so if you're way more reticent, I could see how you could very easily over-interpret casual overhead/over-read comments.
posted by mercredi at 11:55 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
With email and IM, all of the nasty, venting things we say about one another are there for all eternity. There are a number of people - siblings, roommates, friends -- who I love, but who I've said, emailed, g-chatted bad things about. Including but not limited to: "I want to stab X in the face. Was s/he raised by wolves. I really can't stand them right now."
And these are people I really care about. But sometimes they make me crazy. And then I talk to my other friends about it. So, there are any number of people, who if they read all my email could come up with a "worst-of" that would make them recoil in horror. Despite the fact that I really love them. Sometimes because I really love them.
What I'm trying to say is this: try to view their actions/words in the light of human frailty, and passing frustrations. Don't attribute to malice, what can easily be fleeting irritation.
There are a lot of different standards/thresholds for how much or little these sort of relationship frustrations are discussed. I tend to talk about them more than most, so if you're way more reticent, I could see how you could very easily over-interpret casual overhead/over-read comments.
posted by mercredi at 11:55 AM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Whatever you do (and I'm not saying don't dump the friend, necessarily) remember that you have no logical basis whatsoever for defining her emails as her "real" opinion, and her actions towards you as "fake". That's tempting to do, because her emails weren't meant to be seen by you, but it's not accurate, the sample is completely skewed — she could have thought nice thoughts about you 99.9% of time and you wouldn't know, because most people aren't motivated to write emails to third parties in those times. Also: actions speak louder than words, etc.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 11:56 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 11:56 AM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm guessing the other members of the group see the leader's bad mouthing you as annoying as well. The fact that you didn't see similar emails from other people probably implies that they're putting up with this grandmother, just like we all put up with our complaining grandmothers. Every friend I've had has had moments where they are annoying as I am sure I have been too. We're all very fortunately human and allowed to be that way. Some of my favorite friend's can be real aholes some times .. Basically I'm saying that you can't conclude that everyone hates you now .. they just find you annoying sometimes as I'm sure you find them too sometimes.
posted by blueyellow at 12:07 PM on November 19, 2010
posted by blueyellow at 12:07 PM on November 19, 2010
I'm completely aware that this would be annoying for a lot of people. However, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 times I'd stop by she'd greet me with basically "Oh thank goodness you're here! Can you help me with... " or "I was just hoping you'd stop by soon..."
I think that's awful. While I would be willing to give her the benefit of the doubt if she was just saying you were annoying the crap out of her on some particular day, this makes it pretty clear that she's taking advantage of you. I mean.. she checked her mail on your computer, an account she regularly uses to talk crap about you to your other friends, and then just forgot to log out? I would take that to mean she sort of wanted you to see it.
What I would do in your situation: next time she asks you to babysit, be unavailable. Stop dropping by her house. Don't invite any of them out to anything. Wait for one of them to approach you in a friendly manner to talk or invite you out to actually do something with them, as opposed to doing them a favor. When/if that happens again, take the temperature then.
I personally wouldn't bother telling her you read the emails unless she tells you that she noticed you'd been acting different and wonders if something is wrong. Then you can tell her. If she doesn't bother asking, don't bother explaining, and try to make some new friends. I'm sorry this happened.
posted by wondermouse at 12:14 PM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think that's awful. While I would be willing to give her the benefit of the doubt if she was just saying you were annoying the crap out of her on some particular day, this makes it pretty clear that she's taking advantage of you. I mean.. she checked her mail on your computer, an account she regularly uses to talk crap about you to your other friends, and then just forgot to log out? I would take that to mean she sort of wanted you to see it.
What I would do in your situation: next time she asks you to babysit, be unavailable. Stop dropping by her house. Don't invite any of them out to anything. Wait for one of them to approach you in a friendly manner to talk or invite you out to actually do something with them, as opposed to doing them a favor. When/if that happens again, take the temperature then.
I personally wouldn't bother telling her you read the emails unless she tells you that she noticed you'd been acting different and wonders if something is wrong. Then you can tell her. If she doesn't bother asking, don't bother explaining, and try to make some new friends. I'm sorry this happened.
posted by wondermouse at 12:14 PM on November 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Dear Librarian
Your user name includes the Briggs Myers abbreviation INTP, which makes it seem like this is part of the way you identify yourself. Perhaps you have missed oblique messages from your friend. INTPs are logical and rational, not so much touchy feelie. You say some of her complaints drive at the "core" of who you are... Is it possible that you are proud of your quirkiness and eccentricities, and you've shrugged off her remarks?
INTP strikes me as borderline Asbergers. Perhaps you could look at some Asberger social "cheat sheets". How to read body language, hygeine & dress code.
Someone recommended that you shouldn't burn your bridges. If these people have been part of your world for this many years, they are probably committed to the long term. Tell them, "when I act like Spock, you need to challenge me!". Be open minded and don't take offense. Learn to laugh at your personality differences. Give them comical names from popular culture.
posted by ohshenandoah at 12:58 PM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Your user name includes the Briggs Myers abbreviation INTP, which makes it seem like this is part of the way you identify yourself. Perhaps you have missed oblique messages from your friend. INTPs are logical and rational, not so much touchy feelie. You say some of her complaints drive at the "core" of who you are... Is it possible that you are proud of your quirkiness and eccentricities, and you've shrugged off her remarks?
INTP strikes me as borderline Asbergers. Perhaps you could look at some Asberger social "cheat sheets". How to read body language, hygeine & dress code.
Someone recommended that you shouldn't burn your bridges. If these people have been part of your world for this many years, they are probably committed to the long term. Tell them, "when I act like Spock, you need to challenge me!". Be open minded and don't take offense. Learn to laugh at your personality differences. Give them comical names from popular culture.
posted by ohshenandoah at 12:58 PM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's important to keep in mind that the MeFite tolerance for email reading is probably considerably lower than the average in the population. I've fallen victim to 'accidentally' left-open emails (from entirely different months or years than the day that they were left open in a public space or on my box), and it fucking well sucks. However, it's not the end of the world. Chalk it up to your friend venting, take a break from her for a couple weeks, and then just go back to life as normal (as much as you can).
posted by solipsophistocracy at 1:03 PM on November 19, 2010
posted by solipsophistocracy at 1:03 PM on November 19, 2010
So you're going to turn your back on those wonderful kids who love you and give you reason to go on living?
Because of something their mom said in some email to somebody?
I don't think so.
You are essentially family to this woman and her family, and in a sense these emails only serve to confirm that. They are very typical of the sorts of things a big extended family might say to each other about each other (not that they ought to, of course, but they do).
Yet the bonds of family are usually more than strong enough to contain this kind of thing, and I think they will prove to be here too if you give them a chance, and I think you should.
You could modify some of the specific things you do, say by calling on your cell when you have the impulse to drop by, etc., but do not allow yourself to go into withdrawal mode.
If nothing else, given the personality of their mother, those kids really need your love.
posted by jamjam at 2:02 PM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Because of something their mom said in some email to somebody?
I don't think so.
You are essentially family to this woman and her family, and in a sense these emails only serve to confirm that. They are very typical of the sorts of things a big extended family might say to each other about each other (not that they ought to, of course, but they do).
Yet the bonds of family are usually more than strong enough to contain this kind of thing, and I think they will prove to be here too if you give them a chance, and I think you should.
You could modify some of the specific things you do, say by calling on your cell when you have the impulse to drop by, etc., but do not allow yourself to go into withdrawal mode.
If nothing else, given the personality of their mother, those kids really need your love.
posted by jamjam at 2:02 PM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I badmouth people I like to stay "in" with groups of people who hate them. It is the price of having a large group of friends that tend to hate each other.
posted by tehloki at 2:21 PM on November 19, 2010
posted by tehloki at 2:21 PM on November 19, 2010
You've been blind-sided. Until the shock of that subsides, don't make any radical decisions.
We expect as adults to be treated as adults. So, as you posted in thread, if something you were doing was annoying your friend, she could have mentioned the annoyance and you would have stopped doing the annoying thing. But she didn't. She acted, in fact, the opposite of annoyed.
That's too bad for her because life can be pretty frustrating if you don't voice your preference when it matters. But please consider that there are people who just like to play in mud and fling poo on other people. Sometimes people will invite an annoyance in order to later fling poo. Sometimes people are not really annoyed in the first place but muster up annoyance in order to later flingy da poo.
For some, flinging poo on others and then pointing out the poo to third parties makes them feel superior to the poo-covered others and elevated in the eyes of the third parties. Bitching about people or gossiping about people or bullying people accomplishes the same thing. That you are her friend just makes you an available target. She could still care about you, to the extent she is able. I would be surprised if she didn't talk shit about her other friends to still other friends.
It would have been fantastic if one of the group had clued her in that saying hurtful things behind a friend's back isn't cool, but who knows if one of the group didn't say or register otherwise that it's not cool....maybe in person, maybe another way. If not, well, petty followers of petty leaders are petty, story at 11?
This is her (extraordinarily common) character flaw, not yours. Take tons of time to process. You have a range of appropriate responses. But your first priority is not your "friend" and that group, it's you. Dive deep into your bliss, process this new perspective and always always keep moving forward.
Good luck.
posted by Jezebella at 2:43 PM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
We expect as adults to be treated as adults. So, as you posted in thread, if something you were doing was annoying your friend, she could have mentioned the annoyance and you would have stopped doing the annoying thing. But she didn't. She acted, in fact, the opposite of annoyed.
That's too bad for her because life can be pretty frustrating if you don't voice your preference when it matters. But please consider that there are people who just like to play in mud and fling poo on other people. Sometimes people will invite an annoyance in order to later fling poo. Sometimes people are not really annoyed in the first place but muster up annoyance in order to later flingy da poo.
For some, flinging poo on others and then pointing out the poo to third parties makes them feel superior to the poo-covered others and elevated in the eyes of the third parties. Bitching about people or gossiping about people or bullying people accomplishes the same thing. That you are her friend just makes you an available target. She could still care about you, to the extent she is able. I would be surprised if she didn't talk shit about her other friends to still other friends.
It would have been fantastic if one of the group had clued her in that saying hurtful things behind a friend's back isn't cool, but who knows if one of the group didn't say or register otherwise that it's not cool....maybe in person, maybe another way. If not, well, petty followers of petty leaders are petty, story at 11?
This is her (extraordinarily common) character flaw, not yours. Take tons of time to process. You have a range of appropriate responses. But your first priority is not your "friend" and that group, it's you. Dive deep into your bliss, process this new perspective and always always keep moving forward.
Good luck.
posted by Jezebella at 2:43 PM on November 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Wow. If I totally hated someone from whom I was getting free babysitting, I hope I'd be a good enough person to tell them so. However, your person probably values the free babysitting and so has not condescended to let you know her ill opinion of you.
What a terrible story. What a terrible person. Be good enough to yourself to get clear of this kind of malice.
posted by Protocols of the Elders of Sockpuppetry at 2:49 PM on November 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
What a terrible story. What a terrible person. Be good enough to yourself to get clear of this kind of malice.
posted by Protocols of the Elders of Sockpuppetry at 2:49 PM on November 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
My wife regularly talks shit about the irritating actions/mistakes/choices/statements of her mom. And then, about daily, she gets on the phone with her mom and talks for an hour. They're pretty much best friends. They clearly love each other. I don't really understand this, but there it is. Don't assume that someone who is extremely critical of you behind your back hates you.
posted by Mr. Justice at 3:08 PM on November 19, 2010
posted by Mr. Justice at 3:08 PM on November 19, 2010
INTPLibrarian: "For example, I frequently stop by her place just to say hi. I'm completely aware that this would be annoying for a lot of people. However, I'd say about 1 out of every 3 or 4 times I'd stop by she'd greet me with basically "Oh thank goodness you're here! Can you help me with... " or "I was just hoping you'd stop by soon..." On the other hand, she had complaints about my saying I couldn't do something because of a chronic disease I have. As if I'd made it up. She didn't even get the name of the disorder correct."
You know what? I think that while this is all painful for you to read, you may be over-reacting. I mean, these are things I would say* about my sisters. I mean, one of my sisters is an entitled demanding critical princess; the other spent 10 years driving us all FUCKING INSANE with her OCD behaviour which you know, very possibly we didn't deal with with the recognition or regard she needed.
But you know what? I love them so, so much. Every now and then I need a good rant to offload some of this stuff so I can go back and accept and love them exactly as they are. I assume they bitch about me to each other or my mom, because God knows I am an exceptionally crappy friend and sister at times.
It's just how we keep on keeping on, you know? Sure I mean what I say but it isn't the most important thing about them or how I feel about them.
Another clarification: some of the things she said she was irritated about are things I would have simply stopped doing if she had let me know they were irritating instead of her encouraging me to continue doing them.
I'm not sure "thank God you're here" is encouraging you to drop in. In other words, I think it's possible you're so hurt from reading all of this that you're only able to read this from a postion of defense. Maybe you could give it a few days and read it like it's about someone else and see what you think about the contents.
*Except I have lived long enough to learn not to ever, ever say in writing or speak out loud anything I don't want repeated back to me, except to my mother or therapist. Your friend hasn't learned this yet.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:22 PM on November 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
You know what? I think that while this is all painful for you to read, you may be over-reacting. I mean, these are things I would say* about my sisters. I mean, one of my sisters is an entitled demanding critical princess; the other spent 10 years driving us all FUCKING INSANE with her OCD behaviour which you know, very possibly we didn't deal with with the recognition or regard she needed.
But you know what? I love them so, so much. Every now and then I need a good rant to offload some of this stuff so I can go back and accept and love them exactly as they are. I assume they bitch about me to each other or my mom, because God knows I am an exceptionally crappy friend and sister at times.
It's just how we keep on keeping on, you know? Sure I mean what I say but it isn't the most important thing about them or how I feel about them.
Another clarification: some of the things she said she was irritated about are things I would have simply stopped doing if she had let me know they were irritating instead of her encouraging me to continue doing them.
I'm not sure "thank God you're here" is encouraging you to drop in. In other words, I think it's possible you're so hurt from reading all of this that you're only able to read this from a postion of defense. Maybe you could give it a few days and read it like it's about someone else and see what you think about the contents.
*Except I have lived long enough to learn not to ever, ever say in writing or speak out loud anything I don't want repeated back to me, except to my mother or therapist. Your friend hasn't learned this yet.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:22 PM on November 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
I'm afraid I disagree with many of the posters above. Talking shit about someone you love but find irritating in the moment is totally different than thinking someone (who has a background in childcare) is untrustworthy but can be used for convenience. That suggests calculation and doesn't sound like someone "venting" in the heat of the moment. This person is not your friend. If she does "love" you, it comes with a considerable degree of condescension that I wouldn't accept in one of my friendships. My two cents is that you should spend less time doing favors for her and monitor whether or not her attitude toward you changes. I don't think being upset over this (especially over the comment regarding childcare and the EXPLICIT revelation that she's using you) is an "insane position to take" at all.
posted by pineappleheart at 3:37 PM on November 19, 2010 [14 favorites]
posted by pineappleheart at 3:37 PM on November 19, 2010 [14 favorites]
Honestly, ten years of bitching, about stuff that's at the core of you? I don't think I could forget and forgive that one. (And she BORROWED YOUR COMPUTER to bitch about you? And left her account open?! Really? At the very least if you're gonna bitch about someone while AT THEIR HOUSE, log out!) I strongly lead towards an immediate friend dumping. Whether or not you tell her what you found and say, "I'm very sorry you don't like me after all, I will never speak to you again, goodbye," or do a silent fade (either one is a good idea), I don't see how the hell you could be friends with her after that. I don't know what she said, but I have the impression that it's a lot more than just petty bitching.
The thing is, if you tried to stay friends with her after this, you're always going to feel like a horrible person around her. You'll be trying to kiss her ass and make improvements and keep your mouth shut and be the person she wants you to be, and you will be beating yourself up every time you see or talk to her, trying to jump through her hoops and be acceptable to her. Which you may or may not succeed at. And THAT kind of thing is kind of emotional extended torture on you. If she has a long list of problems that she has with you, that's not something you can easily modify beyond "okay, so I'll call before I drop in next time."
I am sorry that you will probably lose everyone else tied to her that you care about, but I don't see a way to keep them around without her too.
I am really sorry for how you are feeling right now. :( This is awful.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:34 PM on November 19, 2010 [6 favorites]
The thing is, if you tried to stay friends with her after this, you're always going to feel like a horrible person around her. You'll be trying to kiss her ass and make improvements and keep your mouth shut and be the person she wants you to be, and you will be beating yourself up every time you see or talk to her, trying to jump through her hoops and be acceptable to her. Which you may or may not succeed at. And THAT kind of thing is kind of emotional extended torture on you. If she has a long list of problems that she has with you, that's not something you can easily modify beyond "okay, so I'll call before I drop in next time."
I am sorry that you will probably lose everyone else tied to her that you care about, but I don't see a way to keep them around without her too.
I am really sorry for how you are feeling right now. :( This is awful.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:34 PM on November 19, 2010 [6 favorites]
INTPLibrarian, I'm right there with you; I would feel incredibly hurt and betrayed, and I'm sure I couldn't carry on a close relationship with that person afterward. However, I'll just throw this in: I am semi-friends (via marriage) with a very close group of pals who all go back for 20+ years (most of them went to primary school together, and lived in the same neighborhood). One of the group in particular has been a fairly close friend of mine (friend A), and she was always complaining about how another person (friend B) in the group treated her, describing situations and comments that seemed really bitchy and mean, and I came to the conclusion that Friend B was pretty much an awful person, despite the fact that she was incredibly popular and seen as the wise and steady "Mama Bumblebee" of the whole group.
But I was surprised that friend A never would break it off with friend B, and on the contrary they would almost always spend holidays together and make it a point to see each other at least three times a week (I am far less social!). Friend A would complain to me about friend B, but totally ignore all my advice, which was basically why spend time with someone who makes you feel so bad?
Finally, I wised up. Finally I realized that they both bitch about each other all the time, and yet they are somehow the closest of friends. Perhaps it's a modeling of sibling/family relationships (because friend B's sister, friend C, also has an almost identical relationship with her bff, friend D). They all bitch about each other constantly! And are all pretty much inseparable!
I was incredibly naive, because this kind of duplicitous talk/behavior something that was never a part of my family life or my personal relationships (though in retrospect, it might explain a lot about my first husband! o_0), and seems like the worst kind of hypocrisy and meaness, but I think it may be fairly common with some people.
If you wonder, look to the relationship that your friend has with her parents/siblings/husband; does she sometimes denigrate them, but then act in ways that seem surprising based on what she's said? She may just be treating you in the same way that she treats her closest beloved. For me, that sort of thing will never be something I'm comfortable with, but it's something to consider.
posted by taz at 8:47 AM on November 20, 2010
But I was surprised that friend A never would break it off with friend B, and on the contrary they would almost always spend holidays together and make it a point to see each other at least three times a week (I am far less social!). Friend A would complain to me about friend B, but totally ignore all my advice, which was basically why spend time with someone who makes you feel so bad?
Finally, I wised up. Finally I realized that they both bitch about each other all the time, and yet they are somehow the closest of friends. Perhaps it's a modeling of sibling/family relationships (because friend B's sister, friend C, also has an almost identical relationship with her bff, friend D). They all bitch about each other constantly! And are all pretty much inseparable!
I was incredibly naive, because this kind of duplicitous talk/behavior something that was never a part of my family life or my personal relationships (though in retrospect, it might explain a lot about my first husband! o_0), and seems like the worst kind of hypocrisy and meaness, but I think it may be fairly common with some people.
If you wonder, look to the relationship that your friend has with her parents/siblings/husband; does she sometimes denigrate them, but then act in ways that seem surprising based on what she's said? She may just be treating you in the same way that she treats her closest beloved. For me, that sort of thing will never be something I'm comfortable with, but it's something to consider.
posted by taz at 8:47 AM on November 20, 2010
It sounds like you've found yourself associated with one of those Machiavellian people discussed by Barbara Oakley in Evil Genes. Not a lot you can do about it beyond accepting the fact that the queen of your group is a parasite and you either submit or move on. I concur with several other posters here in that I do not think she "forgot" to log off. It's her way of telling you to submit or piss off. Given her type of personality I would tend to think she's getting rid of you to prove to someone else that it can happen to them. Remember, her goal is control. Who she controls is irrelevant.
posted by ptm at 8:53 AM on November 20, 2010
posted by ptm at 8:53 AM on November 20, 2010
This is terrible and I'm really sorry you are going through this. I think though that this information, regardless of how it was obtained, is something you absolutely needed to know. FWIW, after a spell of sadness, anger and disbelief, I'd be grateful that the truth landed in my lap (no matter how).
They lied to you over a long period of time. They pretended to be your friends. As other people have mentioned here, you need to give yourself some time to process this information. That is, simply figure out how this feels and how you want to deal with it. I can only speak for myself, but I would never speak to any of them again and I'd never explain why or have any confrontation (tough to do when you're involved with extended family and for so many years).
You have to figure out what is right for you. Sometimes the shock of betrayal subsides in fits and starts, and can be complecated by interactions with the person/s who has betrayed you. Talk therapy is a very good idea. So is a vacation or short trip somewhere - and otherwise getting out and meeting new people.
posted by marimeko at 11:48 AM on November 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
They lied to you over a long period of time. They pretended to be your friends. As other people have mentioned here, you need to give yourself some time to process this information. That is, simply figure out how this feels and how you want to deal with it. I can only speak for myself, but I would never speak to any of them again and I'd never explain why or have any confrontation (tough to do when you're involved with extended family and for so many years).
You have to figure out what is right for you. Sometimes the shock of betrayal subsides in fits and starts, and can be complecated by interactions with the person/s who has betrayed you. Talk therapy is a very good idea. So is a vacation or short trip somewhere - and otherwise getting out and meeting new people.
posted by marimeko at 11:48 AM on November 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Just want to drop in and say that I'm actually thrilled that there are so many different takes on this. It's more helpful than if everyone who has answered had the same opinion.
What I'm doing about all this right now is nothing. Luckily (I think) her and her family are out of town for the next week so that gives me some time to think about things without having to even choose between ignoring her or confronting her or whatever.
Some of you have asked about what I've gotten out of our relationship and right now I feel like I've always been the "giver" but I also realize that might be my emotions clouding things.
I plan on reading over everyone's comments here and trying to honestly answer any questions, even if only in my head or in a journal... And I'm sure as hell gonna try spending more time on AskMeFi than I have recently because this has been so helpful!
posted by INTPLibrarian at 7:29 PM on November 20, 2010
What I'm doing about all this right now is nothing. Luckily (I think) her and her family are out of town for the next week so that gives me some time to think about things without having to even choose between ignoring her or confronting her or whatever.
Some of you have asked about what I've gotten out of our relationship and right now I feel like I've always been the "giver" but I also realize that might be my emotions clouding things.
I plan on reading over everyone's comments here and trying to honestly answer any questions, even if only in my head or in a journal... And I'm sure as hell gonna try spending more time on AskMeFi than I have recently because this has been so helpful!
posted by INTPLibrarian at 7:29 PM on November 20, 2010
Could this be about your friend who wrote the emails more than it is about you? In other words, maybe she is just the type of person who likes to complain and complain and complain about everyone and everything. If she wasn't complaining about one thing you did, it'd be another thing, and it wouldn't mean YOU had any kind of problem or acted in a way that was actually annoying. I have a relative like this, and she complains and complains about every one of her friends; one of the friends she was griping about finally stopped getting in touch, and now she complains about how much she misses her!
If this group of people really didn't enjoy your company and didn't want you around, they wouldn't invite you or include you. I mean, use your own judgment, but IMHO people's actions matter more than words, and some people use words to be negative a lot, that's just how they are. Is she generally the type to gripe about others? If so, well, eh. It's not about you.
posted by citron at 9:41 PM on November 20, 2010
If this group of people really didn't enjoy your company and didn't want you around, they wouldn't invite you or include you. I mean, use your own judgment, but IMHO people's actions matter more than words, and some people use words to be negative a lot, that's just how they are. Is she generally the type to gripe about others? If so, well, eh. It's not about you.
posted by citron at 9:41 PM on November 20, 2010
This is interesting.
Some people here don't find it unusual to bitch about your friends and yet love them to bits.
Other people here say that this is unacceptable behaviour and they would never do this to someone they respect.
What you need to decide is
a) which group of people does your friend belong to? (For instance, does she bitch about other people in your presence, yet show that she loves them?)
b) which group do YOU belong to? Even if a) is the case, that doesn't mean you have to accept it or feel okay with it. You get to decide "this is not how I want to live my life, the friends I want to surround myself with".
posted by Omnomnom at 12:55 AM on November 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
Some people here don't find it unusual to bitch about your friends and yet love them to bits.
Other people here say that this is unacceptable behaviour and they would never do this to someone they respect.
What you need to decide is
a) which group of people does your friend belong to? (For instance, does she bitch about other people in your presence, yet show that she loves them?)
b) which group do YOU belong to? Even if a) is the case, that doesn't mean you have to accept it or feel okay with it. You get to decide "this is not how I want to live my life, the friends I want to surround myself with".
posted by Omnomnom at 12:55 AM on November 21, 2010 [2 favorites]
Why is it your job to figure out whether or not your "friend" did or didn't mean what she was saying for the last decade?
Why is it your job to wonder whether she intentionally meant you to see what she said (after using YOUR computer to slag you off)?
I have been guilty of grizzling about my loved ones in the past. I taught myself not to do it when I realized how nasty it was. If I need to confide in someone in order to solve a problem, I try to make sure it's someone who doesn't know the person I'm having problems with.
It is up to your "friend" to give a convincing explanation as to why she has been slagging you off for a decade. It is not your job to have to figure out whether her actions over the last 10 years are a true representation of her attitude towards you. If she has been going around saying things she doesn't mean, it's time she learned there are consequences.
I personally think she wants one of two things: for you to disappear so she can start using the new babysitter she has lined up; or for you to make a scene and discredit yourself.
I would suggest following the guidelines of some recent answers on the green, and simply sending her an email thanking her for sharing her honest opinion of you, telling her how very much you love her kids, and wishing her luck with her new babysitting arrangements. AND THEN DISAPPEARING.
I'm guessing that the most you'll get is a superficial apology, if any.
posted by tel3path at 2:45 AM on November 22, 2010
Why is it your job to wonder whether she intentionally meant you to see what she said (after using YOUR computer to slag you off)?
I have been guilty of grizzling about my loved ones in the past. I taught myself not to do it when I realized how nasty it was. If I need to confide in someone in order to solve a problem, I try to make sure it's someone who doesn't know the person I'm having problems with.
It is up to your "friend" to give a convincing explanation as to why she has been slagging you off for a decade. It is not your job to have to figure out whether her actions over the last 10 years are a true representation of her attitude towards you. If she has been going around saying things she doesn't mean, it's time she learned there are consequences.
I personally think she wants one of two things: for you to disappear so she can start using the new babysitter she has lined up; or for you to make a scene and discredit yourself.
I would suggest following the guidelines of some recent answers on the green, and simply sending her an email thanking her for sharing her honest opinion of you, telling her how very much you love her kids, and wishing her luck with her new babysitting arrangements. AND THEN DISAPPEARING.
I'm guessing that the most you'll get is a superficial apology, if any.
posted by tel3path at 2:45 AM on November 22, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by gadha at 9:19 AM on November 19, 2010 [28 favorites]