Unsolicited Advice
October 7, 2010 3:19 PM Subscribe
A friend of mine kind of acts like an ass when eating out. Should I say something?
A friend of mine is generally a nice guy--I swear he is! But if you only interacted with him in restaurants, you'd think he was a huge asshole. I don't eat out in restaurants with him often (maybe four or five times in the last year and a half), but the times I have, he's always really curt and snotty to the waitstaff, and then tips terribly. The rudeness is, I think, just part of a sort of general social anxiety; it's tough to explain, but he'll try to joke and it will come off as curt or inappropriate, or he'll try to be as casual as possible and it'll come off as standoffish or snobbish. This mostly happens in these sorts of this-person-is-being-paid-to-help-me kind of situations. He's otherwise really polite and nice to people, even those he barely knows.
The tipping, tho--there's no excuse. He will leave the change from a dollar on a $20 bill. Or sometimes nothing at all. I and our other friends have pointed this out to him and he'll play dumb (if called on it directly), or just ignore it (if I try to be more subtle about it), but it doesn't seem to change in behavior for the future.
And normally, this is the kind of thing I'd ignore, or just continue to cover for him. But here's the thing: I've read a lot of questions here on the green along the lines of, "I do online dating. I have nice chats with people, we meet in real life and I have a good time, and then I never hear back. WTF?" And there are a lot of responses that say, "Were you nice to the waiter? Did you tip? Those things are really important to me."
And, you got it--my friend could have written those quesions. He has a couple of profiles on dating sites, he goes out, and things generally fizzle out by the first or second date and he's all, "But I had such a good time!" I wonder if this behavior is coloring women's impressions of him. I know he does go to restaurants/bars on first and second dates.
So--do I say something to him about this habit? If I do, what's the best way to go about it?
A friend of mine is generally a nice guy--I swear he is! But if you only interacted with him in restaurants, you'd think he was a huge asshole. I don't eat out in restaurants with him often (maybe four or five times in the last year and a half), but the times I have, he's always really curt and snotty to the waitstaff, and then tips terribly. The rudeness is, I think, just part of a sort of general social anxiety; it's tough to explain, but he'll try to joke and it will come off as curt or inappropriate, or he'll try to be as casual as possible and it'll come off as standoffish or snobbish. This mostly happens in these sorts of this-person-is-being-paid-to-help-me kind of situations. He's otherwise really polite and nice to people, even those he barely knows.
The tipping, tho--there's no excuse. He will leave the change from a dollar on a $20 bill. Or sometimes nothing at all. I and our other friends have pointed this out to him and he'll play dumb (if called on it directly), or just ignore it (if I try to be more subtle about it), but it doesn't seem to change in behavior for the future.
And normally, this is the kind of thing I'd ignore, or just continue to cover for him. But here's the thing: I've read a lot of questions here on the green along the lines of, "I do online dating. I have nice chats with people, we meet in real life and I have a good time, and then I never hear back. WTF?" And there are a lot of responses that say, "Were you nice to the waiter? Did you tip? Those things are really important to me."
And, you got it--my friend could have written those quesions. He has a couple of profiles on dating sites, he goes out, and things generally fizzle out by the first or second date and he's all, "But I had such a good time!" I wonder if this behavior is coloring women's impressions of him. I know he does go to restaurants/bars on first and second dates.
So--do I say something to him about this habit? If I do, what's the best way to go about it?
Tell your friend: "I love ya pal, but sometimes you act like a complete asshole."
posted by BobbyVan at 3:30 PM on October 7, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by BobbyVan at 3:30 PM on October 7, 2010 [7 favorites]
I'm sure this is an awful answer, but....
I would straight up tell him that not tipping and treating wait staff rudely is reflecting on him very badly in social situations. Specifically, I would say that it shows poor character, and since you know him to be a supper great guy, this behavior in incongruent to who he really is.
I would probably then engage him in a deeper conversation about his attitudes towards service people. Maybe he doesn't know how to act around them for some reason? It would be interesting to hear why he always blows off the topic whenever it is brought up to him directly!
*I grew up in kind of a "nouveau riche" neighborhood where the adults around me treated staff like crap, were demanding and bossy, etc.. I grew up, wised up, and cut that behavior out of my repertoire once I started working as a waiter in college. I've tipped like money was infinite ever since. Your friend could use a little empathy, I think.
posted by jbenben at 3:30 PM on October 7, 2010 [6 favorites]
I would straight up tell him that not tipping and treating wait staff rudely is reflecting on him very badly in social situations. Specifically, I would say that it shows poor character, and since you know him to be a supper great guy, this behavior in incongruent to who he really is.
I would probably then engage him in a deeper conversation about his attitudes towards service people. Maybe he doesn't know how to act around them for some reason? It would be interesting to hear why he always blows off the topic whenever it is brought up to him directly!
*I grew up in kind of a "nouveau riche" neighborhood where the adults around me treated staff like crap, were demanding and bossy, etc.. I grew up, wised up, and cut that behavior out of my repertoire once I started working as a waiter in college. I've tipped like money was infinite ever since. Your friend could use a little empathy, I think.
posted by jbenben at 3:30 PM on October 7, 2010 [6 favorites]
Why not just not go out with him to eat? Are you really worried about his dating life, or his social interactions? Think about what you would gain by telling him that, in your eyes, his behavior at restaurants isn't appropriate and may be turning other people off as well.
I, myself, am a freak at restaurants. My wife kind of hates it and has told me plenty of times. I cooked in some pretty up scale restaurants, and my standards of the restaurants I visit are based on what I, personally/professionally know to be "best practice." Not the case here obviously.
That being said, if you have a personal stake in this person's restaurant etiquette, I say go for it. If not, let it be and not go out to eat with them.
posted by TheBones at 3:30 PM on October 7, 2010
I, myself, am a freak at restaurants. My wife kind of hates it and has told me plenty of times. I cooked in some pretty up scale restaurants, and my standards of the restaurants I visit are based on what I, personally/professionally know to be "best practice." Not the case here obviously.
That being said, if you have a personal stake in this person's restaurant etiquette, I say go for it. If not, let it be and not go out to eat with them.
posted by TheBones at 3:30 PM on October 7, 2010
"A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person."
— Dave Barry
If you feel like you can broach the subject, then yes, do talk to him. Patiently and kindly let him know how much waitpersons make and how hard they work. Explain that maybe the server is not the only person responsible for their experience in a restaurant. If social anxiety is behind this, he might appreciate the feedback. Possibly.
posted by Gilbert at 3:34 PM on October 7, 2010 [15 favorites]
— Dave Barry
If you feel like you can broach the subject, then yes, do talk to him. Patiently and kindly let him know how much waitpersons make and how hard they work. Explain that maybe the server is not the only person responsible for their experience in a restaurant. If social anxiety is behind this, he might appreciate the feedback. Possibly.
posted by Gilbert at 3:34 PM on October 7, 2010 [15 favorites]
Bring up the hospitality profession in conversation with him. You could do it anywhere, but especially over dinner at a restaurant. Mention off-handedly, "I'd hate to be a server! Did you know they only earn a couple bucks an hour, and depend on tips for all their income? That's gotta suck!"
Being indirect like this might not solve the problem, but it couldn't hurt. Your friend may just be unaware of this fact. My tipping behavior changed instantly as soon as I learned that waitstaff can't survive on wages alone. At one point I assumed "gratuity" was simply a nice, optional gesture and anything was appreciated. Like giving change to homeless people. I'd never worked anywhere near the service industry and assumed they got the same kind of paychecks as me. They don't teach this stuff in school! Knowing the reality of the situation resulted in a 180° change in my perspective.
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 3:39 PM on October 7, 2010
Being indirect like this might not solve the problem, but it couldn't hurt. Your friend may just be unaware of this fact. My tipping behavior changed instantly as soon as I learned that waitstaff can't survive on wages alone. At one point I assumed "gratuity" was simply a nice, optional gesture and anything was appreciated. Like giving change to homeless people. I'd never worked anywhere near the service industry and assumed they got the same kind of paychecks as me. They don't teach this stuff in school! Knowing the reality of the situation resulted in a 180° change in my perspective.
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 3:39 PM on October 7, 2010
I think it would be a kindness to help him out here. There are some people who just don't know how they come off when they do things like this. And "it'll help you in your dating" is probably not as pure a motive as "it's the right thing to do" but you take your carrots where you can find them. I know that if I were dating him, I'd see that behavior and start forming excuses why I didn't have to see him again.
As for how, I'd be direct and just tell him that he isn't coming off the way he intends (give him the benefit of the doubt). It may make him mad or defensive, but if he is as nice as you say inside, he'll learn from it. Though there is the chance that he'll become angry with you and it could harm your friendship.
posted by Mala at 3:54 PM on October 7, 2010
As for how, I'd be direct and just tell him that he isn't coming off the way he intends (give him the benefit of the doubt). It may make him mad or defensive, but if he is as nice as you say inside, he'll learn from it. Though there is the chance that he'll become angry with you and it could harm your friendship.
posted by Mala at 3:54 PM on October 7, 2010
I recently went out to dinner with my fiance and her parents. Her dad is openly cheap when it comes to tipping. I don't get it. I've waited tables before and it sucks. I believe that waiters work hard for a living. Harder then most people. Anything less then 15% is bad. I think 20% is the right amount to tip. I would say something to your friend. But watch your step. If you're really trying to help his dating life and you think this what's causing problems definitely take that approach. Make it more about "helping" him and less about telling him he's a dick. Say something like, "Buddy, I really want you to find a girlfriend. You're a great guy and you deserve to be happy. I think that you need to understand women are observing you're every move. Especially when it comes to how you treat your waiter or waitress. So show your date that you're a respectful guy. Be nice and tip well. That way you're sure to make a good impression." Something along those lines. And I also agree that "A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person." Period.
posted by ljs30 at 3:57 PM on October 7, 2010
posted by ljs30 at 3:57 PM on October 7, 2010
This is about more than his dating life or whether he embarrasses you at dinner. It's about an important life lesson for your friend: Treating people well and fairly.
Whatever way you phrase it, help this guy learn this important life lesson, even if he doesn't want to. Especially if he doesn't want to.
Looking back, haven't most of us been "corrected" in some way, and been eternally grateful once we got over feeling bad?
posted by fivesavagepalms at 4:18 PM on October 7, 2010
Whatever way you phrase it, help this guy learn this important life lesson, even if he doesn't want to. Especially if he doesn't want to.
Looking back, haven't most of us been "corrected" in some way, and been eternally grateful once we got over feeling bad?
posted by fivesavagepalms at 4:18 PM on October 7, 2010
Have you ever been a waiter? If so, next time your friend's about to stiff the waitstaff, could you say something along the lines of: "You know, I used to wait tables in college. And if I got THAT for a tip, I'd feel really bad. Were you that unhappy with the service?" And then if the guys says "no" you can say "well then let's show that we weren't unhappy with the service and each pay $(10%) because let me tell you man, 20% is pretty standard for decent service."
posted by egeanin at 4:19 PM on October 7, 2010
posted by egeanin at 4:19 PM on October 7, 2010
Are you a guy? I'd say, 'Dude. Girls hate that shit.' and send him a few links.
And I'd keep a ten and a twenty in my wallet for when I needed to throw down on a table as we walked away in a restaurant.
There are very, very few things I find as offensive as someone who doesn't know how to treat a server in a restaurant.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:21 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
And I'd keep a ten and a twenty in my wallet for when I needed to throw down on a table as we walked away in a restaurant.
There are very, very few things I find as offensive as someone who doesn't know how to treat a server in a restaurant.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:21 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
Also, I'm sorry -- he sounds cheap. Which is a repellent trait. Money is a concern for almost everyone. How a person handles that particular concern is a big indicator of what kind of person they are.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:26 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:26 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Next time you're in danger of going out to eat with him, say, "Uh, no, I'd rather not. I don't want to go out to eat with you any more, to be honest. You embarrass me by the way you treat the waitstaff." And then don't go.
Or, next time he whines "but why does nobody love me?" explain "because you are a shnurer with waitstaff and service personnel. Chicks hate that!"
posted by tel3path at 4:27 PM on October 7, 2010 [9 favorites]
Or, next time he whines "but why does nobody love me?" explain "because you are a shnurer with waitstaff and service personnel. Chicks hate that!"
posted by tel3path at 4:27 PM on October 7, 2010 [9 favorites]
Courtesy is free, easy to practice, and makes the world a better place. Unless your friend has a sadistic streak, there is no possible reason not to be courteous.
Sure, waitstaff are paid to deal with people, including assholes. But why be one of the assholes?
Tipping is cheap and easy. So I guess there's a marginal excuse for bad tipping, but only a marginal one.
I say go out to dinner with the guy and confront him directly, so that he's getting immediate feedback on his bad behavior. And while you're doing it, point out "oh, and by the way, chicks HATE that shit."
posted by adamrice at 4:42 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Sure, waitstaff are paid to deal with people, including assholes. But why be one of the assholes?
Tipping is cheap and easy. So I guess there's a marginal excuse for bad tipping, but only a marginal one.
I say go out to dinner with the guy and confront him directly, so that he's getting immediate feedback on his bad behavior. And while you're doing it, point out "oh, and by the way, chicks HATE that shit."
posted by adamrice at 4:42 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Tipping is very culturally variable. Is it possible he was brought up by parents who were from somewhere else and just doesn't know the conventions where you are? In my area, 15-20% is standard unless there's a real problem, and (again for my culture) if you tip less without cause you look like someone who's stingy and somewhat callous. Depending on the friendship, I would think about bringing this up at dinner, maybe with good-natured ribbing followed by you making it clear that the table will be leaving an appropriate tip with or without him.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:42 PM on October 7, 2010
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:42 PM on October 7, 2010
Oh yeah, and watch the diner scene from Reservoir Dogs with him. And tell him "don't be Mr Pink."
posted by adamrice at 4:45 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by adamrice at 4:45 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
Being pretty non-confrontational by nature, I think I wouldn't approach the issue until the next time he wonders aloud why his dates aren't going better. Obviously, he should be called out on it (being a jerk is bad, tipping poorly is probably worse), but it sounds like you don't really want to attack it head-on. (And how would you? "Dude I was thinking, you're terrible at restaurants!"?)
But if he's asking, even indirectly, for help with dating... and you know something that might help him... and he might not even realize what he's doing isn't appropriate... that's the perfect place to let him know.
posted by SuperNova at 4:48 PM on October 7, 2010
But if he's asking, even indirectly, for help with dating... and you know something that might help him... and he might not even realize what he's doing isn't appropriate... that's the perfect place to let him know.
posted by SuperNova at 4:48 PM on October 7, 2010
This really is a situation where bluntness is called for. Next time he asks if you'll eat dinner with him, just say, "Dude, no way. You're rude to the servers and you stiff them on the tip. It's embarrassing." Or some variation on that. Your other option is to stop going to restaurants with him. As for the dating thing, I think it would be a kindness to tell him that this trait of his is probably a real turn-off with the ladies (and really, with any dining partner who isn't a complete ass).
posted by JenMarie at 4:51 PM on October 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by JenMarie at 4:51 PM on October 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
My staunchly Suburban Conservative dad turned his crappy tipping/waitstaff attitude around 180 degrees after he read, "Nickel and Dimed...in America." You still have like 75 shopping days until Christmas.
posted by rhizome at 5:23 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 5:23 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
Many mefites are suggesting that he grew up rich and that's why he treats waitstaff disposably, but I just wanted to chime in to suggest it may be the opposite, especially as you describe him as "socially anxious". If he didn't go out to eat growing up, he may believe that brusqueness is the best way to interact with waitstaff, and he may be overdoing it. I had no idea how to speak to a waiter until I was in my twenties for similar reasons (though my reaction was distant coldness).
I would call him on it directly, preferably immediately after he says or does something inappropriate; even better would be collusion with the waiter (possibly requiring advance planning). That way, when you bring it up, you could also ask the waiter to chime in, and the waiter could say something like, "yeah, i didn't say anything because, obviously, it's part of my job to not make you upset or uncomfortable in any way, but I didn't like it when you said/did that thing."
Obviously, your friend knows the waiter is a person, but it might help drive home the point that he is perfectly allowed to treat the waiter like a regular person too.
(Of course, that would require you to give the waiter a mega-tip!)
posted by lesli212 at 5:37 PM on October 7, 2010
I would call him on it directly, preferably immediately after he says or does something inappropriate; even better would be collusion with the waiter (possibly requiring advance planning). That way, when you bring it up, you could also ask the waiter to chime in, and the waiter could say something like, "yeah, i didn't say anything because, obviously, it's part of my job to not make you upset or uncomfortable in any way, but I didn't like it when you said/did that thing."
Obviously, your friend knows the waiter is a person, but it might help drive home the point that he is perfectly allowed to treat the waiter like a regular person too.
(Of course, that would require you to give the waiter a mega-tip!)
posted by lesli212 at 5:37 PM on October 7, 2010
Joining the chorus of being upfront with your friend. He might just really be that clueless on how much waitstaff rely on tips, or he might not care, but you should make it clear to him that people notice, and not as a casual thing. I try to anticipate the cost of tipping when I think about how much I plan on spending in a given night.
posted by QuarterlyProphet at 5:43 PM on October 7, 2010
posted by QuarterlyProphet at 5:43 PM on October 7, 2010
And, you got it--my friend could have written those quesions. He has a couple of profiles on dating sites, he goes out, and things generally fizzle out by the first or second date and he's all, "But I had such a good time!" I wonder if this behavior is coloring women's impressions of him. I know he does go to restaurants/bars on first and second dates.
A bit of wisdom that women pass around is to pay attention to how a man you're newly seeing treats the server or other people in the service profession--because that's how he'll treat you after a few years.
Maybe the women he goes on those first and second dates also heard that bit.
posted by Savannah at 5:48 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
A bit of wisdom that women pass around is to pay attention to how a man you're newly seeing treats the server or other people in the service profession--because that's how he'll treat you after a few years.
Maybe the women he goes on those first and second dates also heard that bit.
posted by Savannah at 5:48 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I would definitely say something very direct, since you say he doesn't seem to pick up on hints. And if you go out to eat any more with him, make up for whatever he misses in tip, and make sure he sees. I do this with my dad (who honestly is a nice guy, but he's always stuck in the appropriate tip percentage of a decade earlier) and it only takes a time or two before he gets embarrassed enough by watching me double check the tip against the bill and dig out my wallet before he asks me what he should leave.
Now that I think about it - do you think he has a hard time with the math (especially after alcohol), so just wildly guesses and is too embarrassed to say? Almost everyone I go out with asks me to do the math or does it on their phone. You could get your phone out to figure your tip (even though 20% is dead easy) and ask if he wants you to figure his while you have it out. If he outright refuses and still leaves a handful of change or something, that's the point where I'd stop eating with him. That is not a mistake or awkwardness, that's just being an asshole.
posted by wending my way at 6:03 PM on October 7, 2010
Now that I think about it - do you think he has a hard time with the math (especially after alcohol), so just wildly guesses and is too embarrassed to say? Almost everyone I go out with asks me to do the math or does it on their phone. You could get your phone out to figure your tip (even though 20% is dead easy) and ask if he wants you to figure his while you have it out. If he outright refuses and still leaves a handful of change or something, that's the point where I'd stop eating with him. That is not a mistake or awkwardness, that's just being an asshole.
posted by wending my way at 6:03 PM on October 7, 2010
Tell him that women have very few signals to figure out many things about him when on a date, and that how he treats small animals, children, the elderly, the handicapped, and service personnel is a key indicator of his general character, just like how he deals with sudden downpours and last-minute changes of plans and getting lost on the way to the theatre.
Seriously. Tell him to practice with you because it has to be second nature. Appeal to his lizard brain. Also, apply obvious looks of disgust and disgruntled noises while upping the tip when you leave the table.
posted by SMPA at 7:00 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Seriously. Tell him to practice with you because it has to be second nature. Appeal to his lizard brain. Also, apply obvious looks of disgust and disgruntled noises while upping the tip when you leave the table.
posted by SMPA at 7:00 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
This really is a situation where bluntness is called for.
I agree with JenMarie here. Like others have said - next time you go out, when it comes time to pay the bill, point out that 20% is customary and any less sends a signal to the server that you are unhappy with something. If you send that signal without context, then you're a tone-deaf jerk. Heck, even when I get bad service, I'll usually tip normally because waiting tables sucks more than any other job and the bad service is not a reflection on the server's opinion on you, but on circumstances that have nothing to do with you.
It is totally fine to to just talk about this when it is just the two of you next time. Just tell him him he's not doing it right. That is what friends are for. We help each other become better people by being honest and sharing this type of information. For example, my friends told me I turn people off because I come across as insincere when complimenting. I had to make adjustments because I love sarcasm and joking around. Until my friends told me bluntly "dude, why did you snark that person? Stop being so damn snarky!" I had no idea I was doing that..! I thought I was being funny and nice, but it came across as crass and off-putting. Tell your friend he's being weird about tipping and he'll see the light.
As far as the personality stuff about him being a doofus - not much you can do to see fast results there. Self-awareness develops differently in everyone. Unfortunately, your friend sounds a little immature. That is generally only a self-correcting issue. If you address that one, tread very lightly as to not hurt feelings. I wouldn't though. It is always tough when someone needs to hear something but telling them about it will probably be very hurtful and inevitably sound judgmental. Can you try setting a good example and hope he mimics the good behavior?
The dating part is "ehh." Unless he specifically asks "what am I doing wrong with women?" I would not get involved in this problem. The only thing I might try unprompted is a double-date and demonstrate a good example of how to be relaxed without being doofusy.
posted by archivist at 7:27 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I agree with JenMarie here. Like others have said - next time you go out, when it comes time to pay the bill, point out that 20% is customary and any less sends a signal to the server that you are unhappy with something. If you send that signal without context, then you're a tone-deaf jerk. Heck, even when I get bad service, I'll usually tip normally because waiting tables sucks more than any other job and the bad service is not a reflection on the server's opinion on you, but on circumstances that have nothing to do with you.
It is totally fine to to just talk about this when it is just the two of you next time. Just tell him him he's not doing it right. That is what friends are for. We help each other become better people by being honest and sharing this type of information. For example, my friends told me I turn people off because I come across as insincere when complimenting. I had to make adjustments because I love sarcasm and joking around. Until my friends told me bluntly "dude, why did you snark that person? Stop being so damn snarky!" I had no idea I was doing that..! I thought I was being funny and nice, but it came across as crass and off-putting. Tell your friend he's being weird about tipping and he'll see the light.
As far as the personality stuff about him being a doofus - not much you can do to see fast results there. Self-awareness develops differently in everyone. Unfortunately, your friend sounds a little immature. That is generally only a self-correcting issue. If you address that one, tread very lightly as to not hurt feelings. I wouldn't though. It is always tough when someone needs to hear something but telling them about it will probably be very hurtful and inevitably sound judgmental. Can you try setting a good example and hope he mimics the good behavior?
The dating part is "ehh." Unless he specifically asks "what am I doing wrong with women?" I would not get involved in this problem. The only thing I might try unprompted is a double-date and demonstrate a good example of how to be relaxed without being doofusy.
posted by archivist at 7:27 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
SMPA is right. As a female in the US you are routinely told to check how he treats waitstaff, his mother and pets. This is a red flag to his dates in addition to asshatery.
posted by cestmoi15 at 7:42 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by cestmoi15 at 7:42 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ah yes. Fond memories of the lawyer I dated, for all of a couple weeks, who had been supported by a trust fund all his adult life. And did. Not. Tip. At all. It was mortifying, and was definitely indicative of his general attitudes about class and value of other people. Nothing more fun than having to sneak back to the table at the end of a date to throw some money down. If I had to to do over again, I'd be much more direct-"are you leaving a tip? If not, i will, since of course it would be inappropriate not to?". He, of course, would not have got it, but id feel better.
posted by purenitrous at 7:58 PM on October 7, 2010
posted by purenitrous at 7:58 PM on October 7, 2010
Bring up the hospitality profession in conversation with him. You could do it anywhere, but especially over dinner at a restaurant. Mention off-handedly, "I'd hate to be a server! Did you know they only earn a couple bucks an hour, and depend on tips for all their income? That's gotta suck!"
It has been my experience that anyone who has grown up in the United States is aware of this fact. That suggests that Cheapsie McBastard's behavior is deliberate, and if so I would tend to think the oblique approach will only prompt a vigorous defense of the stance that tipping is an opprobrious custom, which is generally how the Cheapsie McBastards of the world defend their cheapness.
If the core problem is that he embarrasses you when you go out, then I think leaving a few extra bucks and calling it a day is probably your best best, although if you wanted to be a little more pointed yet stay subtle you could simply take the check back after he's put in, recount the money and add a few more bucks, without comment. If he remarks on it, mention "we didn't leave much of a tip; I waited tables in the summer when I was a kid and I know it's a tough gig, so I always make sure to leave 20 percent unless the service really sucked." That changes the equation so that you're the one being put out and you say he's decent to his friends, so it might make him change.
As far as his dating life goes, if he initiates an "I don't know what I'm doing wrong, help me figure it out" type conversation, then I'd say you can safely work it in. If all he's doing is venting his frustrations, then you poking your nose in all, "you know what your problem is, buddy...." might go over like a lead balloon.
posted by Diablevert at 8:46 PM on October 7, 2010
It has been my experience that anyone who has grown up in the United States is aware of this fact. That suggests that Cheapsie McBastard's behavior is deliberate, and if so I would tend to think the oblique approach will only prompt a vigorous defense of the stance that tipping is an opprobrious custom, which is generally how the Cheapsie McBastards of the world defend their cheapness.
If the core problem is that he embarrasses you when you go out, then I think leaving a few extra bucks and calling it a day is probably your best best, although if you wanted to be a little more pointed yet stay subtle you could simply take the check back after he's put in, recount the money and add a few more bucks, without comment. If he remarks on it, mention "we didn't leave much of a tip; I waited tables in the summer when I was a kid and I know it's a tough gig, so I always make sure to leave 20 percent unless the service really sucked." That changes the equation so that you're the one being put out and you say he's decent to his friends, so it might make him change.
As far as his dating life goes, if he initiates an "I don't know what I'm doing wrong, help me figure it out" type conversation, then I'd say you can safely work it in. If all he's doing is venting his frustrations, then you poking your nose in all, "you know what your problem is, buddy...." might go over like a lead balloon.
posted by Diablevert at 8:46 PM on October 7, 2010
A man who would be nasty to the waitstaff at a restaurant is one short step removed from kicking a dog when he thinks nobody is watching. It's his job to straighten up and fly right. Maybe you should explain to him the a good attitude and a decent tip adds to the enjoyment of your next visit to the same place. As an ex-waiter I can tell you that we remembered exceptional customers and treated them well. Maybe an amuse-bouche as soon as you are seated, a free glass of wine or a comped desert.
And while I never did anything bad to shitty customers, I may be an outlier there. Some people aren't as nice as I am.
Also it's not your job to cover for him. Do it because you feel that the waiter deserves better, not because he's a dick.
posted by Splunge at 7:26 AM on October 8, 2010
And while I never did anything bad to shitty customers, I may be an outlier there. Some people aren't as nice as I am.
Also it's not your job to cover for him. Do it because you feel that the waiter deserves better, not because he's a dick.
posted by Splunge at 7:26 AM on October 8, 2010
*I grew up in kind of a "nouveau riche" neighborhood where the adults around me treated staff like crap, were demanding and bossy, etc.. I grew up, wised up, and cut that behavior out of my repertoire once I started working as a waiter in college. I've tipped like money was infinite ever since. Your friend could use a little empathy, I think.
When I was in my early 20s I spent some time around people who worried a lot about being "screwed" or "taken advantage of" or whatever by service employers and panhandlers and whatever, and their attitude was a bit contagious, even though I had been raised to be more generous than that.
The biggest worry in my mind wasn't really even about the money; I just didn't want to look like a fool or a pushover or an easy mark or whatever. And so I sort of had to make a conscious decision that I would choose looking like a fool or a spendthrift over looking (or being) stingy.
I think partly this sort of thing is a matter of empathy for the waiter. But partly too it's about wanting to look good and feel good about yourself — and people have different ideas about what counts as a virtue and what counts as a vice. If he's been raised to think that tipping low is a sign of clever frugality rather than mean-spirited selfishness, then that's gonna have an effect here.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:03 AM on October 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
When I was in my early 20s I spent some time around people who worried a lot about being "screwed" or "taken advantage of" or whatever by service employers and panhandlers and whatever, and their attitude was a bit contagious, even though I had been raised to be more generous than that.
The biggest worry in my mind wasn't really even about the money; I just didn't want to look like a fool or a pushover or an easy mark or whatever. And so I sort of had to make a conscious decision that I would choose looking like a fool or a spendthrift over looking (or being) stingy.
I think partly this sort of thing is a matter of empathy for the waiter. But partly too it's about wanting to look good and feel good about yourself — and people have different ideas about what counts as a virtue and what counts as a vice. If he's been raised to think that tipping low is a sign of clever frugality rather than mean-spirited selfishness, then that's gonna have an effect here.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:03 AM on October 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
Re. Diablevert's comment, some people really don't realize how low a server's wage is, and assume that it's at least minimum wage. They don't realize that a server's meager paycheck is pretty much eaten up by taxes. It sounds like that's probably not the case with the guy in this question, especially since he's played dumb before when people brought it up, but it's a good angle to approach this kind of conversation from anyway. It's less likely to put him on the defensive while still driving home the point that not tipping/tipping badly is basically making the server work for free.
posted by spinto at 8:39 AM on October 8, 2010
posted by spinto at 8:39 AM on October 8, 2010
things generally fizzle out by the first or second date and he's all, "But I had such a good time!"
Does he actually say this to you? As in, he wonders to you what happened considering he had such a good time?
Agreed 100%, but let me make what I'm agreeing to super clear.
It is the height of rudeness (in my opinion) to give someone unsolicited advice. If he ASKS for advice, by all means give it to him. If he doesn't -- if he just has a flaw but hasn't asked you to comment on it -- then don't.
I am responding to this as if the whole point of your post is "I've realized that I could help my friend by giving him some advice. Should I?" IF there's more to your post than this... if your friend is embarrassing or offending YOU, then call him on it if you want. But don't do it in a passive-aggressive "I'm giving you advice to help you on dates" way. If it's a call-out, it's a call-out. If it's advice, make sure it's requested advice.
posted by grumblebee at 1:16 PM on October 8, 2010
Does he actually say this to you? As in, he wonders to you what happened considering he had such a good time?
Agreed 100%, but let me make what I'm agreeing to super clear.
It is the height of rudeness (in my opinion) to give someone unsolicited advice. If he ASKS for advice, by all means give it to him. If he doesn't -- if he just has a flaw but hasn't asked you to comment on it -- then don't.
I am responding to this as if the whole point of your post is "I've realized that I could help my friend by giving him some advice. Should I?" IF there's more to your post than this... if your friend is embarrassing or offending YOU, then call him on it if you want. But don't do it in a passive-aggressive "I'm giving you advice to help you on dates" way. If it's a call-out, it's a call-out. If it's advice, make sure it's requested advice.
posted by grumblebee at 1:16 PM on October 8, 2010
As a friend of his, and someone who genuinely likes him, it's not just acceptable to tell him he's being an ass to the waitstaff, it's actually kind of an obligation.
I mean, your friend wouldn't want to be douchbag, right? Well, how is he supposed to know that he's got some bad habit that makes him act like a douchebag sometimes if the people who care about him don't help him see what he can't see about himself?
posted by patnasty at 7:53 PM on October 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
I mean, your friend wouldn't want to be douchbag, right? Well, how is he supposed to know that he's got some bad habit that makes him act like a douchebag sometimes if the people who care about him don't help him see what he can't see about himself?
posted by patnasty at 7:53 PM on October 8, 2010 [2 favorites]
I mean, your friend wouldn't want to be douchbag, right? Well, how is he supposed to know that he's got some bad habit that makes him act like a douchebag sometimes if the people who care about him don't help him see what he can't see about himself?
The logical conclusion to this is that we should point out all of our friends' bad habits. Otherwise, how will they know?
If that's your value, that's your value. It's not mine. And I suspect it would lead to a major discord in a lot of social groups.
posted by grumblebee at 7:58 AM on October 9, 2010
The logical conclusion to this is that we should point out all of our friends' bad habits. Otherwise, how will they know?
If that's your value, that's your value. It's not mine. And I suspect it would lead to a major discord in a lot of social groups.
posted by grumblebee at 7:58 AM on October 9, 2010
And I suspect it would lead to a major discord in a lot of social groups.
Telling him that not tipping isn't cool doesn't have to be a serious sit-down discussion where you tell him he is a douchebag and that no girl wants to date him. I'd tell him the next time you have dinner together. Once you guys pay the bill, double check the amount and ask him how much he threw in. If his portion is $20, ask him for 4 bucks for his tip. If he refuses, let him know you will have to pay for his part of the tip, don't just sneakily go back and pay it so he has no idea he's doing anything wrong (waaay more embarrassing in the long run). Depending on your friendship (and his sensitivity levels), you could joke around to cut the tension at this point.
I (unsolicitedly) point out bad habits in my friends to the extent that said habits have an effect on me. If it's done in a grown-up, drama-free way, it actually rarely causes discord and can save friendships.
Now, if this was your boss or client, or someone else you needed to continuously impress, I would recommend the face-saving techniques outlined above.
posted by fermezporte at 1:22 PM on October 9, 2010
Telling him that not tipping isn't cool doesn't have to be a serious sit-down discussion where you tell him he is a douchebag and that no girl wants to date him. I'd tell him the next time you have dinner together. Once you guys pay the bill, double check the amount and ask him how much he threw in. If his portion is $20, ask him for 4 bucks for his tip. If he refuses, let him know you will have to pay for his part of the tip, don't just sneakily go back and pay it so he has no idea he's doing anything wrong (waaay more embarrassing in the long run). Depending on your friendship (and his sensitivity levels), you could joke around to cut the tension at this point.
I (unsolicitedly) point out bad habits in my friends to the extent that said habits have an effect on me. If it's done in a grown-up, drama-free way, it actually rarely causes discord and can save friendships.
Now, if this was your boss or client, or someone else you needed to continuously impress, I would recommend the face-saving techniques outlined above.
posted by fermezporte at 1:22 PM on October 9, 2010
Most of the time, it's not a good idea to try to change other people. You can explain to your friend that wait staff are paid a lower minimum wage, and tips are expected to make up the difference. If he comments about his dates that fizzle, you can say "Want some free advice that might annoy you? or want commiseration?"
posted by theora55 at 1:49 PM on October 9, 2010
posted by theora55 at 1:49 PM on October 9, 2010
The logical conclusion to this is that we should point out all of our friends' bad habits. Otherwise, how will they know?
If that's your value, that's your value. It's not mine. And I suspect it would lead to a major discord in a lot of social groups.
It's not a value. It's a process. It's called socialization. It's how civilization evolved. Without it, we'd still be cavemen clubbing anyone who has anything we want over the head and taking it. It's how children learn what is and isn't acceptable behavior, first from their parents, and then from their peers.
Acting in an unacceptable manner toward another human being isn't a "bad habit" like biting your nails or misusing the word ironic. You're not pointing out a bad habit to your friend, you are pointing out that their behavior toward this third member of our species is offensive and objectionable to you, and something that you do not tolerate.
Question -- would you consider racism to be a "bad habit" that it isn't "your value" to correct in your friends?
posted by patnasty at 4:47 PM on October 9, 2010
If that's your value, that's your value. It's not mine. And I suspect it would lead to a major discord in a lot of social groups.
It's not a value. It's a process. It's called socialization. It's how civilization evolved. Without it, we'd still be cavemen clubbing anyone who has anything we want over the head and taking it. It's how children learn what is and isn't acceptable behavior, first from their parents, and then from their peers.
Acting in an unacceptable manner toward another human being isn't a "bad habit" like biting your nails or misusing the word ironic. You're not pointing out a bad habit to your friend, you are pointing out that their behavior toward this third member of our species is offensive and objectionable to you, and something that you do not tolerate.
Question -- would you consider racism to be a "bad habit" that it isn't "your value" to correct in your friends?
posted by patnasty at 4:47 PM on October 9, 2010
Wait. Isn't the actual question about whether or not he should give his friend unsolicited dating advice?
If the OP is asking whether or not it's okay to tell his friend "the way you treat waiters and waitresses bothers me," then that's not unsolicited advice. It's not advice at all. It's a complaint. Which is fair enough.
For reference:
normally, this is the kind of thing I'd ignore, or just continue to cover for him. But here's the thing: I've read a lot of questions here on the green along the lines of, "I do online dating. I have nice chats with people, we meet in real life and I have a good time, and then I never hear back. WTF?" And there are a lot of responses that say, "Were you nice to the waiter? Did you tip? Those things are really important to me." ... I wonder if this behavior is coloring women's impressions of him. I know he does go to restaurants/bars on first and second dates.
So--do I say something to him about this habit?
Earlier, the op mentioned that in other ways, his friend is a nice guy. So this question is, to my reading, similar to "I have a friend who is really nice and interesting, but he's 50 years old and he dresses like a teenager. I think it's ruining his changes to make a good impression on dates. Do I tell him?" To me, the clear answer is "not unless he asks for advice." And that IS based on values -- my value that it's impolite to give unsolicited advice. If you don't share that value, you'll disagree with me.
But people are treating this as if the question is "It personally offends me that my friend is rude to waiters. Should I tell him?" Maybe that IS the question. Maybe I'M the one who is misreading it. But I just reread it, and I still see "should I give my friend dating advice?"
I am VERY offended when people are rude to waiters. I've been a waiter. So have many of my friends. So I understand the temptation to tell the OP to give his friend a good spanking. But is that really answering the question the OP posted?
posted by grumblebee at 4:59 PM on October 9, 2010
If the OP is asking whether or not it's okay to tell his friend "the way you treat waiters and waitresses bothers me," then that's not unsolicited advice. It's not advice at all. It's a complaint. Which is fair enough.
For reference:
normally, this is the kind of thing I'd ignore, or just continue to cover for him. But here's the thing: I've read a lot of questions here on the green along the lines of, "I do online dating. I have nice chats with people, we meet in real life and I have a good time, and then I never hear back. WTF?" And there are a lot of responses that say, "Were you nice to the waiter? Did you tip? Those things are really important to me." ... I wonder if this behavior is coloring women's impressions of him. I know he does go to restaurants/bars on first and second dates.
So--do I say something to him about this habit?
Earlier, the op mentioned that in other ways, his friend is a nice guy. So this question is, to my reading, similar to "I have a friend who is really nice and interesting, but he's 50 years old and he dresses like a teenager. I think it's ruining his changes to make a good impression on dates. Do I tell him?" To me, the clear answer is "not unless he asks for advice." And that IS based on values -- my value that it's impolite to give unsolicited advice. If you don't share that value, you'll disagree with me.
But people are treating this as if the question is "It personally offends me that my friend is rude to waiters. Should I tell him?" Maybe that IS the question. Maybe I'M the one who is misreading it. But I just reread it, and I still see "should I give my friend dating advice?"
I am VERY offended when people are rude to waiters. I've been a waiter. So have many of my friends. So I understand the temptation to tell the OP to give his friend a good spanking. But is that really answering the question the OP posted?
posted by grumblebee at 4:59 PM on October 9, 2010
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Does he actually say this to you? As in, he wonders to you what happened considering he had such a good time?
If so, I think that it would be 100% appropriate to bring this up, when he says this sort of thing. You could say exactly what people say in those threads. "Was this in a restaurant? If so, did you tip well? That's really important to a lot of people."
posted by Ashley801 at 3:25 PM on October 7, 2010 [6 favorites]