Cutting to the heart of the issue.
October 5, 2010 6:47 AM   Subscribe

In the series of movies about Zatoichi, the famed Japanese masseur and blind swordsman, the protagonist wields his sword in an "inverse" position, with the bladed portion of the weapon extending downward from the hand. Is this position unique to Zatoichi, or does it appear in other Japanese--or non-Japanese--styles of swordsmanship?

The Wikipedia article on Zatoichi notes that he uses a shikomi-tzue(仕込み杖)or "cane sword," which might account for the inverse position, since it's presumably easier to extract and wield the blade from this position. But the inverse position shows up on the set of other Japanese movies from the seventies as well. The heroine played by Kaji Meiko in the "Lady Snowblood" series holds her weapon in the inverse style, as does the Harada Yoshio character in "The Trail of Blood."

Admittedly, neither Kaji Meiko or Harada Yoshio seem to be consummate artists in movie-based swordplay, and their moves--and the movies' choreography--seem somewhat haphazard. Even so, I'm curious about the legitimacy of this style of swordplay. Was the inverse position ever an acceptable style in the art of traditional Japanese sword-fighting? Does it ever appear in styles of sword-fighting outside of the Japanese archipelago? Do martial artists in styles that use knives and shorter edged weapons, such as Escrima, ever hold their weapons in the inverse position? Is this position ever advantageous compared to the more common form of holding a sword or knife, in which the blade extends upwards from the palm?
posted by Gordion Knott to Media & Arts (20 answers total) 5 users marked this as a favorite
 
A guy I worked with years ago practiced Escrima (at least, I think it was Escrima), and he showed me a knife that was held in one position (extended from the hand conventionally) for strikes in one direction, but that could quickly be reversed at the top of the curve to an inverse position for a strike in the opposite direction. The knife was designed to do this, and allowed for a cutting blow regardless of the angle of attack. It looked fairly effective to me.
posted by jquinby at 7:15 AM on October 5, 2010


As an iaido practitioner of only a couple years, none of the styles that I have seen (muso shinden ryu, muso jikiden eishin ryu) use this "inverse" position. But I am not familiar with all the koryu kata ("school forms"). There is a step in the third seitei (common to all schools) kata, called uke-nagashi where one changes the right hand position (best picture I could find) prior to performing noto (re-sheathing).

But I don't know of any time it would be used for attack.

This might simply be because that position of holding the sword is not as efficient for cutting. But that is just speculation on my part.
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 7:17 AM on October 5, 2010


Knife fighting grips

* "Regular" reverse grip - more specifically, "reverse grip edge out" or RGEO, where the hand is wrapped around the handle as if making a fist with the thumb capping the handle, edge facing away from the forearm. This is sometimes referred to as the Serial Killer (or Murdering) Grip due many villains in slasher films using it to kill their victims; the first movie popularizing it was Psycho in the infamous shower scene.
* Icepick grip - more specifically, "reverse grip edge in" or RGEI, but with the edge facing the forearm. Also called pikal (or pakal) grip.

posted by Comrade_robot at 7:17 AM on October 5, 2010


Could you provide a picture of how the blade is held? I'm having trouble visualising it.

Western swordsmanship has an awful lot of different ways of holding a sword (up to holding it by the blade and hitting your opponent with the crossguard and pommel), but from what I think you're talking about I don't know of any use of this 'inverse' position. I suspect this is to do with simple biomechanics - you have more power in your arm using it in some ways rather than others.
posted by Coobeastie at 7:42 AM on October 5, 2010


The following is based only on lots of movies rather than real martial arts experience.

Depends on the style of sword. You see it a lot in more knife-like (i.e., shorter) swords, and less and less the bigger and/or longer the sword gets - I assume because the time it takes to flip a knife from top-of-the-hand to bottom-of-the-hand grip is trivial. In chinese kung-fu, a number of weapons are designed specifically to be flipped easily - daggers, the dual machete-style swords, batons, etc. In japanese flicks, same basic division - usually women use the bottom-grip, I assume because usually women don't carry full swords but some version of a long dagger. (The female lead in Ninja Scroll holds her short sword like this. ) There's much less flipping between the positions in japanese stuff I've seen, though. Shinomori Aoshi, in the Ruruoni Kenshin anime, has two short-swords - one that he holds top-of-the-hand, one bottom-of-the-hand. Top gives you faster slashes (his primary attack sword), bottom gives you more strength cause it's braced against a forearm (his primary defense sword).

Zatoichi might do it because a) his cane-sword is shorter than a katana, and as you suggest, b) it's a faster path from drawing to slashing, since he holds his cane like that - also, holding the cane sword-style (top-of-the-hand) might be a tipoff that there's a sword in it.

Silat, the indonesian martial art, has daggers designed to be quickly flipped - I think they have rings on the end.
posted by Pickman's Next Top Model at 8:06 AM on October 5, 2010


This position is sometimes called "hanging guard" in Western swordsmanship, and is used extensively in William Hope's New Short and Easy Method of Fencing (1707). Hope's method employed the smallsword, ancestor of the modern fencing foil and epée. Here's a picture.
posted by Pallas Athena at 8:07 AM on October 5, 2010


Pickman's Next Top Model: "Silat, the indonesian martial art, has daggers designed to be quickly flipped - I think they have rings on the end."

Yes - the knife I saw had this. The loop made it possible to flip it around almost instantly.
posted by jquinby at 8:22 AM on October 5, 2010


...and here's a rundown of the karambit's use. (shudder)
posted by jquinby at 8:26 AM on October 5, 2010


According to TV Tropes, it is mainly used to make people seem more badass. Other than that, in full length swords it suggests that it is mainly for defense.
posted by Deflagro at 8:28 AM on October 5, 2010


Takehashi Kitano talks about the inverse position in the extras of the 2003 version of Zatoichi, and how hard it is to achieve a good range of motion with it. Great for the element of surprise, but very hard on the wrists for extended fighting, especially with that length of sword. Wish I remembered more of that discussion, you'd enjoy it :)
posted by lizbunny at 8:36 AM on October 5, 2010


Not listed by TV Tropes: I recall mediocre action thriller The Hunted featuring this sword grip: an iaido master dude teaches it to Christopher Lambert as a tricky means of beating the badass ninja villain who is after his head.
posted by Kandarp Von Bontee at 8:54 AM on October 5, 2010


Pallas: I don't think that is the grip Gordian is refering to (but I'll let him correct me if I'm wrong). What I imagine it to be, using your picture as a reference, is if you change the person on the right such that his hand is reversed. That is, change so the thumb is pointing up (in a kind of "stabbing" position).
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 9:01 AM on October 5, 2010


found a slideshow of a demo of the technique

Another thing to consider re: Zatoichi. Because he's using a cane sword, it means the blade is straight, or almost straight, rather than having the typical curve most of us would expect to see in a Japanese blade. How does this affect the practicality of this grip?
posted by utsutsu at 9:20 AM on October 5, 2010


After a quick search, I found one page that shows an animation of a "reverse grip" used in a form. The style is tenshin ryu iaijutsu.

I also found some martial arts forums where the question about reverse grip has been asked.

BTW, if you want to see the reverse grip I mentioned in uke-nagashi, let me know. I have a video I can link to (but have to do from home).
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 9:21 AM on October 5, 2010


also, a video
posted by utsutsu at 9:22 AM on October 5, 2010


I did an image search for Zatoichi and the picture I found was on this page discussing the same question you asked.

Summary: It's maybe better for fighting in close quarters.
posted by aubilenon at 10:11 AM on October 5, 2010


ObscureReferenceMan, on a quick image search, I think you're right: in all the Western blade-downwards guard positions I know, the thumb is towards the tip of the blade, whereas Zatoichi's thumb seems to be towards the pommel. Good catch.
posted by Pallas Athena at 10:21 AM on October 5, 2010


Here's the video (self-link). I don't know how include in the link the exact time, so... The form in question begins at 3:05, and you can see the hand change at 3:29.
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 4:10 PM on October 5, 2010


Actually... If you want to see the form done well, check out this video. The form starts at 1:42, and the change can be seen at 2:04. Also, this guy practices a different style than I do - he is muso shinden ryu, I do muso jikiden eishen ryu.
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 4:16 PM on October 5, 2010


Stumbled on this thread quite late but I'll still take a stab at it (heh). I'm a black belt in a sword based martial art (kumdo) and have learned several forms (including some Iaido). None of the forms I've learned teach the inverse method you talk about, nor have I seen it used in action, even with some of the shorter swords. However, neither have I seen anyone practice drawing a sword from a cane position (other than the Z movies), let alone spar with someone who was blind as well.

From my limited experience, holding the sword like that makes it difficult to parry and would require you to move your body much more quickly and aggressively to strike without being struck. Another issue is that you lose a lot of power, and virtually all of the cutting action is a slashing motion that follows your movement. However, a couple things are in its favor. One is that the attack and draw can happen simultaneously (some traditional moves do this too, but the hold on the handle is reversed from Z's). The second is that it is unusual and thus causing an opponent to be initially confused for a moment. That confusion could be taken advantage of with the speed of the draw/attack. Oh another aspect that occurred to me is that Z's grip is also useful for confined spaces.

In summary, the Z method seems vulnerable if you're up against a prepared opponent. However, in the hands of blind master with a sixth sense all bets are off!
posted by forforf at 4:56 PM on December 13, 2010


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