Can a young man with a knife defeat a grizzly bear?

May 5, 2004 2:41 PM

Could a typical young man, armed only with a knife, (say, six or eight inches long) be trained to consistently "win" fights with a grizzly bear? Assume no element of surprise.
posted by Kwantsar to pets & animals (87 comments total)

I know very little about fighting with knives, and even less about grizzly bears, but I'd imagine it wouldn't be any more difficult than training to be a consistently winning boxing champion. Or whatever.
posted by ArsncHeart at 2:51 PM on May 5, 2004

No. Young men lack experience in these matters. You'd need a much older man. Or, perhaps a young woman (who are typically quite a bit wiser than young men). I doubt you'd be able to convince one though, they're quite wise.
posted by daver at 2:56 PM on May 5, 2004 [2 favorites]

How old is the grizzly?

Is knife-throwing allowed?
posted by the cuban at 3:09 PM on May 5, 2004

Winning means kill the bear? Scare it away? Chase it out of a circle on the ground for more than 3 seconds? Make both its shoulder blades touch the ground?
posted by scarabic at 3:24 PM on May 5, 2004

The grizzly is in his/her prime. Knife-throwing is allowed if the subject can indeed "consistently" win.

"Winning" is killing, rendering paralyzed, or otherwise neutralizing the bear.
posted by Kwantsar at 3:27 PM on May 5, 2004

1) Wait until bear ventures under 2000 lb. weight suspended by rope.

2) Use knife to cut rope.

3) Squish bear.
posted by falconred at 3:29 PM on May 5, 2004 [4 favorites]

Assuming the bear was trying to kill you? No. Not even close. You might get lucky, but grizzlies do this sort of thing for a living.

Think about it this way - Grizzlies fight each other. Even if you stab the thing, they're use to that. They have huge claws which have been known to disembowel large mammals with one swipe. They feed by heaving boulders and trees off of small grubs.

Bears kill people, lots of people, every year. People never kill bears with knives.
posted by y6y6y6 at 3:33 PM on May 5, 2004

Assume no element of surprise.

If you bring a kid home from an orphanage and then cut him loose on a grizzly, he's going to be suprised.
posted by yerfatma at 3:35 PM on May 5, 2004 [3 favorites]

Not according to this:

Next thing I know, I'm just seeing teeth and trying to jump out of the way. Oh God help me!

The bear lunged, biting me in the face and neck. I could feel my face ripping. Then I was on the ground, the sow on top of me. I felt her teeth crunching down on my head.

I screamed, She's got my head, she's killing me! However, my cry only intensified the attack. Then I realized, I've got to play dead or I'm going to be dead. [gruesome photo]

posted by kirkaracha at 3:35 PM on May 5, 2004

Bears kill people, lots of people, every year. People never kill bears with knives.

Were this accurate, I'd be wandering in the forest and a bear would be typing this respogrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
posted by yerfatma at 3:36 PM on May 5, 2004 [2 favorites]

Hee hee, yerferma's comment reminds me of one of my favorite books.
posted by nicwolff at 3:47 PM on May 5, 2004

People never kill bears with knives.
Pshaw! Davey Crockett kilt him a bar when he was only three. (Or so I'm told.)
posted by Zonker at 3:49 PM on May 5, 2004

Bears kill very few people, NOT lots of people, every year.
posted by five fresh fish at 3:51 PM on May 5, 2004

It's hard to envisage how you'd train your dupe. Training in knife fighting involves dummy knives, a compliant (human) partner & the repetition of drills.

I reckon that learning to throw accurately & some knowledge of bear anatomy (location of arteries/nerves) would be your best bet.
posted by the cuban at 3:52 PM on May 5, 2004

Assuming you're the typical young man who's angered a bear in some way.
posted by the cuban at 3:55 PM on May 5, 2004

This was a bet you had with somebody in a pub. Wasn't it?
posted by seanyboy at 4:01 PM on May 5, 2004

Oh, and, as to the question: no, the bear would consistently kill the fucking shit out of you. Wait, if you critically wound the bear while it's killing the fucking shit out of you, so it dies afterwards, do you "win"? In that case, go for it.
posted by nicwolff at 4:02 PM on May 5, 2004 [4 favorites]

Gorilla vs Grizzly. Who'd win?

No knifes & a de-clawed/ muzzled grizzly.

??
posted by the cuban at 4:08 PM on May 5, 2004

And how "typical" is this dude? 'Cause typical dudes would crap their pants at the thought of bear brawling.
posted by ColdChef at 4:08 PM on May 5, 2004

What about, instead of a knife, the guy had a nail gun?
posted by ColdChef at 4:10 PM on May 5, 2004 [1 favorite]

Great question! How about if Batman trained the guy in fighting? Or, what if the grizzly was a zombie grizzly?
posted by crunchburger at 4:13 PM on May 5, 2004 [1 favorite]

Grizzlies can grow up to 7 feet tall and 1500 pounds. They can run as fast as 35 mph. Their front claws are about 4.5" long (ten of them vs. one knife). They have the dexterity and speed to fish with their paws. They are also on the Endangered Species list (although that probably wouldn't be a problem in this case).

I heard a story about a park ranger explaining the difference between black bears and grizzly bears: You can tell if it's a black bear by the berries in its feces. Wear bells on your shoes to scare off the black bear and carry pepper in case one comes too near. OTOH, the feces of a grizzly bear smells like pepper and has all these little bells in it.
posted by joaquim at 4:15 PM on May 5, 2004 [1 favorite]

Also, assuming time travel were possible and each combatant were in his prime, who would win a no-holds barred cage match: Martin and Charlie Sheen, or Kirk and Michael Douglas?
posted by Acetylene at 4:18 PM on May 5, 2004

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned Project Grizzly
posted by mr_roboto at 4:21 PM on May 5, 2004

i think a poison-tipped knife might do it, if you threw it really hard, and then ran like hell.

Charlie would win, and Kirk Douglas would definitely win.
posted by amberglow at 4:24 PM on May 5, 2004

the bear would consistently kill the fucking shit out of you

LOL

You would most likely be eviscerated long before you could sink your little blade into its hide, as a grizzly has a much longer reach than you.

If you could somehow train a person to "psych-out" the bear, you know, consistently make it take a swipe, then quickly get it close and ram the blade into its head -- well, you might stand a chance. I'd put my money on the bear, though.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:48 PM on May 5, 2004

nile crocodile vs. grizzly bear, no holds barred, at the edge of a body of shallowish water. ?
posted by Space Coyote at 4:50 PM on May 5, 2004

nile crocodile vs. grizzly bear

So wait, which one's the zombie here?
posted by gleuschk at 5:02 PM on May 5, 2004

People never kill bears with knives

Of course. A plain-old bear is bad enough. A bear armed with a knife? Absolutely BAD-ASS.

How 'bout a cougar versus a fit dude with an aluminum baseball bat?

How 'bout The Rock versus an army of Smurfs?

Now if you could use the knife to quickly make a small thermonuclear device and the means to deliver it from orbit, then you'd be sure.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:04 PM on May 5, 2004 [6 favorites]

I'm going to buck the majority opinion and say that someone who had a knife and was trained in the deadly art of bear fighting could do it consistently. Sure. I'm talking, training for this would have to be a full-time job for at least a year or two. Like training for a big boxing match. You would need to hire the best bear fighters in the world as your coaches.

Bears are strong and fast, but people are... uhh... smart.

I think it would be possible to trick the bear, and when it was confused, plunge the knife into it repeatedly. Then like run behind a tree or something. Repeat as necessary.

My friends and I have had these conversations before. I'm confident in man vs. bear, but I'm pretty sure there's no way a man could beat a blue whale in a fair fight, knife or not.
posted by Hildago at 5:19 PM on May 5, 2004

MacGyver could do it with gum and a paper clip
posted by thewittyname at 5:20 PM on May 5, 2004

Perhaps we're not exploring all the possiblities. In a battle to the death, which would win? A rabid sheep with razors on it's hooves, or a spunky little girl armed with a garrote?
posted by y6y6y6 at 5:21 PM on May 5, 2004 [1 favorite]

As I stated earlier, my money's on the young woman, bar or shep.
posted by daver at 5:30 PM on May 5, 2004

I love how no one has even asked WHY yet.

AskMe: Kill first, ask questions later.
posted by Hackworth at 5:38 PM on May 5, 2004

"I think it would be possible to trick the bear, and when it was confused, plunge the knife into it repeatedly."

As someone who has a bullethole, I think you are underestimating the number of times you'd need to stab a 1500 pound bear before it would die. I suspect it would die of blood lose before you got in a critacal blow, and that might take hours.

In the meantime your knife will probably break. Or worse yet, get stuck. Have you ever felt bear hide? Counting in the thick fur I suspect most blows would glance off. Remember that the bear is moving very fast. And all it needs to do is tag you once and you're toast.

And bears are smart. Especially when it comes to being a badass. Have you seen films of bears fighting? it looks like a dog fight, only two tons bigger.

Dogs can keep a bear at bay, but only because they're faster than a bear, and they aren't trying to kill it. They can harass the bear and stay just out of range forever. Your man with a knife has neither advantage.

Imagine trying to stab a swerving Mini Cooper coming at you at 30 mph. You might get it a few times, but if you need to tag it several dozen times the odds are going to go against you.
posted by y6y6y6 at 5:40 PM on May 5, 2004 [2 favorites]

It might be worth pointing out two things:

Plenty of people have tried to defend themselves from a grizzly attack using a gun, and have absolutely failed to survive, even when they've nailed the beast in the head or chest. Grizzlies are damn tough creatures. Good luck with the knife.

"Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance" is the authoratative book on the subject, and has plenty of stories of people surviving and, mostly, not surviving bear attacks. I do not recommend reading this book in the spring, before you begin hiking, but in the fall, after you have finished for the year.

posted by five fresh fish at 5:48 PM on May 5, 2004 [1 favorite]

Next question: how long will said young man take to die.

In a word, Kwantsar, No.
posted by dmt at 6:07 PM on May 5, 2004

A self-taught bear expert....
posted by sageleaf at 6:24 PM on May 5, 2004

"assume no element of surprise"?

supposing it's possible for the man to win, that bear's going to be plenty surprised right before it dies.
posted by juv3nal at 6:26 PM on May 5, 2004

If you threw away the knife and instead used a small handgun, my money would still be on the bear.

A strange game, Professor Falken. The only way to win it is not to play.
posted by mookieproof at 6:55 PM on May 5, 2004 [2 favorites]

If the young man with the knife realized how innefectual a knife would be against a bear and so used it to make a number of long, sturdy spears, (for bracing against the ground, not throwing) I might go as high as three to one against him. Assuming he was very fit, had excellent coordination, and knew enough about bears and how they move to avoid having the spears swatted away before they could do him any good.
posted by Nothing at 6:58 PM on May 5, 2004

y6's response raises the point that the young man with the knife could use the knife to jack the mini r50r robot from the robot's inventor (if it weren't just a CGI deal), and then he could win.

Shipping the robot to where the bears are would be a pain, though.
posted by mwhybark at 7:11 PM on May 5, 2004 [1 favorite]

I would use the knife to dig a twelve foot deep pit, that the bear would hopefully stumble into, breaking it's legs. Then, I would wait for him to starve to death. Me 1, Bear 0.
posted by ColdChef at 7:21 PM on May 5, 2004 [1 favorite]

No. Not a pit. A hole.
posted by ColdChef at 7:22 PM on May 5, 2004

As someone who has a bullethole, I think you are underestimating the number of times you'd need to stab a 1500 pound bear before it would die

If I had a bullet wound, I'd probably work it into conversations as much as possible. Still, it seems like a non-sequitor here. Clarify? Or don't, I'm just being obtuse.

In the meantime your knife will probably break. Or worse yet, get stuck. Have you ever felt bear hide? Counting in the thick fur I suspect most blows would glance off. Remember that the bear is moving very fast. And all it needs to do is tag you once and you're toast.

I'm talking serious ninja-level combat reflexes here, though. You're probably thinking of just Secret Agent level reflexes. Step it up another notch. I'm imagining the guy is all wall-jumping off trees and doing scissor-kicks and stuff.

Dogs can keep a bear at bay, but only because they're faster than a bear, and they aren't trying to kill it. They can harass the bear and stay just out of range forever. Your man with a knife has neither advantage.

Though it's not really an exact comparison, primitive man must have been in situations like this, where small groups armed with spears and such (that would have been more dull, and weaker, if longer range) took down bears, and cave bears, and special "boss area" bears that got stronger the more you hurt them. And primitive man would not have the kind of bear-fighting training and sports enhancing beverages today's athlete would.

Imagine trying to stab a swerving Mini Cooper coming at you at 30 mph. You might get it a few times, but if you need to tag it several dozen times the odds are going to go against you.

I have actually tried doing this, and usually the guy in the Mini Cooper just speeds away.
posted by Hildago at 7:40 PM on May 5, 2004 [17 favorites]

"I think it would be possible to trick the bear, and when it was confused, plunge the knife into it repeatedly."
I know! Let us taunt it! It may become so cross that it will make a mistake!
posted by Zonker at 7:42 PM on May 5, 2004 [1 favorite]

y6, you're overestimating the average weight of a bear.
posted by nicwolff at 7:44 PM on May 5, 2004

I know! Let us taunt it! It may become so cross that it will make a mistake!

It worked with George Foreman, damn it.
posted by Hildago at 7:46 PM on May 5, 2004

This was bought up before by amberglow, but, no one seemed to care. Coating the knife in a fast-acting poison is close to ideal, but, it might not be enough to kill it before it kills you.

A biological agent in addition to poison might be fairly effective too. But, that probably won't be enough, which leads me to my final suggestion.

So, I propose that the knife be coated in a high-yield contact explosive instead, and the knife itself, be made out of depleted uranium or whatever-radioactive-crap-you-have-lying-around. (Aim for the eyes!)
posted by yeoz at 8:32 PM on May 5, 2004

"If I had a bullet wound, I'd probably work it into conversations as much as possible."

That would depend on why you had the bullet hole. For instance it might be something that is better bragged about than explained. I'm just adding some perspective to guy with a knife. I have a through and through bullet hole, and if someone was trying to kill me with a knife that wound wouldn't have slowed me down one tiny bit. Probably not the norm, but from my experience I would guess that if you stuck a pissed off bear with a knife it wouldn't even feel it until after it had ripped out your throat.

" where small groups armed with spears and such"

This is totally different. If you have three men with spears on of them can always be behind the bear. Which puts the bear on the defensive. It's not a fair comparison. With one man the bear can concentrate on killing you. It's used to fighting one on one with 1500 pound meat eaters with massive fangs and powerful claws. One guy with a knife, who is obligated to get close enough to score solid blows over and over, is a cake walk. Several people attacking from all sides is not something bears need to deal with from an evolutionary stand point.

"took down bears"

I suspect that many of these kills can after the animal was wounded and tracked for days until it was very weak. I don't think we're allowing your super ninja agent kicking guy that option.

"y6, you're overestimating the average weight of a bear."

Your link supports my 1500 pound hypothetical bear. The heaviest griz on record is 1496. And if we're going to have the knife guy fight some pathetic "average" bear then what's the point?

And a poison knife is cheating. If we allow cheating then just have the knife guy drop a 500 pound knife on the bear from a plane or something.
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:39 PM on May 5, 2004 [2 favorites]

Sure, bears can run at 35 mph, but for how long? How fast can a shit-scared man run and for how long? The way I see it, the only sure way to win this fight is if you can make the bear run itself into the ground and drop from exhaustion. Otherwise, you are SOL in a big way. Grizzlies are big, mean and tough. Men (by comparison) are puny, scared and weak. If there is a book running on this, I will put everything I own on the bear please
well, everything except my MeFi membership.
posted by dg at 8:52 PM on May 5, 2004

I'm pretty sure there's no way a man could beat a blue whale in a fair fight, knife or not

Whaddaya mean? It's got no arms and no legs and can't reach around to its back. You just take the first bite on the back and keep chew, chew, chewin' your way to sweet blubbery victory.

Okay, not everyone could do it. But Patrick Duffy could.

And "Sweet Blubbery Victory" is a great name for a band.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:24 PM on May 5, 2004 [1 favorite]

Zing!
posted by Hildago at 9:48 PM on May 5, 2004

I think it would make a good comic (self link).
posted by darkpony at 9:51 PM on May 5, 2004

You could win, if you tag teamed with a couple of dumb, fun-loving Bull Moose and maybe sharp-tongued but really soft-hearted and wise Cougar. Then - with teamwork - you could take down the bear and rid the forest of it's evil tyrant.
posted by Salmonberry at 10:18 PM on May 5, 2004

Ok Hackworth. Kwanstar, why?
posted by daver at 10:48 PM on May 5, 2004

A Bear fighting training session
posted by seanyboy at 12:05 AM on May 6, 2004

This is the most awesomest thread ever.
posted by vito90 at 9:52 AM on May 6, 2004

This guy fought off a polar bear with a pocket knife. And polar bears are WAY BIGGER AND MEANER then grizzley bears.
posted by shinnin at 9:56 AM on May 6, 2004

Follow-up: Will there ever be a boy born who can swim faster than a shark?
posted by ewagoner at 10:02 AM on May 6, 2004

From shinnin's link: "[...] I was beside the bear's head and I stabbed it with an upper cut below the jaw in the neck a couple of times," he said. [...] The bear ran off. While there was some fur and blood on the 9cm blade, Fortier said he didn't think he hurt the bear badly.
posted by nicwolff at 10:09 AM on May 6, 2004

Polar bears are one of the very few animals, perhaps the only animal, that considers humans to be prey. They look at people and think "Mmmm. Food."

All the other Big Scary Animals look at a human and think "Hmmm. Fellow predator. Better be careful."

"Sure, bears can run at 35 mph, but for how long? How fast can a shit-scared man run and for how long?"

Not nearly fast enough and not nearly long enough. Read the Bear Attack book.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:11 AM on May 6, 2004 [1 favorite]

five fresh fish: my understanding is also that polar bears are the one and only animal that hunts humans for food when healthy. Even tigers only do it when injured or old and feeble.
posted by shinnin at 10:15 AM on May 6, 2004 [2 favorites]

Healthy humans or healthy polar bears?

Okay, so what's the biggest, scariest, determined animal adversary a typical young man can learn to take consistently with a knife? I say wolf, hyena, maybe possibly mountain lion. An ostrich would kick the guy's ass though.
posted by furiousthought at 10:37 AM on May 6, 2004

Is the man allowed to use The Force?

Okay, so what's the biggest, scariest, determined animal adversary a typical young man can learn to take consistently with a knife?
The 72oz Steak Challenge at the Lone Star restraunt.
posted by Capn at 10:41 AM on May 6, 2004

In a sense it's not even fair, though. Can a man kill a grizzly bear? Yes. With a gun, from a hundred yards away. Because tool-use and ingenuity are human advantages. Strength, size, claws and teeth are the bear's. A human with a knife could totally kick a weak, small, toothless bear's ass. For instance, a baby bear.

So the question is, "Could a typical young man, armed only with a knife, be trained to consistently 'win' fights with a baby bear? Assume no element of surprise."

I say YES.
posted by Hildago at 11:19 AM on May 6, 2004 [1 favorite]

dg , five fresh fish is very right;
One of the most memorable sections from the bear attack book is basically;
" Do not run they will catch you. Do not climb a tree as they can RUN up the tree faster and all you will find yourself doing is fighting the bear in a tree."
posted by stuartmm at 11:24 AM on May 6, 2004

OK. If the entire membership pool of Metafilter were locked inside Target Center with a healthy adult grizzly bear, how many of us would die before we brought the thing down with sheer numbers? Assume that nobody's wearing anything tougher than a t-shirt, and that Target Center has been stripped of anything that could readily be improvised into a weapon.
posted by COBRA! at 11:41 AM on May 6, 2004

I doubt a bear would fight 1,000, much less the entire MeFi pop. They're not stupid.
posted by agregoli at 11:56 AM on May 6, 2004

Target Center has been stripped of anything that could readily be improvised into a weapon

Nonsense. Children and the short make handy bludgeons if swung by the feet.

Or you could tie a couple of babies together with a t-shirt or two and use 'em as a bolo.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:57 AM on May 6, 2004 [1 favorite]

Assume that nobody's wearing anything tougher than a t-shirt

I assume the bulk of the casualties would be self-inflicted from being confronted with so many pantsless mefia while pantsless.

(I am the king of no pants).

Back to the original topic, what about the bear, could the bear use The Force?
posted by Capn at 12:25 PM on May 6, 2004

what ROU said. : >
posted by amberglow at 12:48 PM on May 6, 2004

The Target Center isn't a challenge for anyone who's reasonably quick on their feet. All you have to do is be a bit faster than the next guy. The bear ain't gonna hunt you if it's had a good meal.

Bottom line is that you just don't fight grizzlies. And they don't want to fight you. They're only dangerous under rare circumstances: they're terribly ill from lack of food, you've startled them while on a hike, or you've stupidly (or accidently, I suppose) got yourself in between Ma bear and her cubs.

When they do attack, the best strategy seems to be to play dead. The startled/mother bears will generally only abuse you until they feel you're no longer a threat. Unfortunately, the ill ones will devour you.

Black bears are a whole other situation, though. They really don't want to be involved, so your best bet is to fight back. They'll run away given half a chance. Unless, of course, they're ill, in which case they'll devour you...
posted by five fresh fish at 1:32 PM on May 6, 2004

How about, instead of a Target store, it was a Chuck E Cheese restaurant? You think a bear could navigate the ball pit? Or maybe we could lure it into the batting cage.
posted by ColdChef at 2:23 PM on May 6, 2004 [1 favorite]

How long can the knife be? Perhaps a sword (made as sharp as modern technology can make it) might do the trick by lopping off whole bear limbs.
posted by snarfodox at 2:45 PM on May 6, 2004

snarfodox, the question states 6-8", which would not meet even Crocodile Dundee's definition of "knife".
posted by LionIndex at 2:49 PM on May 6, 2004

Can the knife shoot fire?

Assuming yes, my strategy would be to gain the high ground over the bear, by either climbing a tree (in the forest), onto a display shelf (in Target), or in that gallery where the animatronic band plays (in Chuck E. Cheese's) and just fucking laying into that bear with fire from my knife.
posted by Hildago at 3:22 PM on May 6, 2004 [3 favorites]

Living in Australia I feel entirely qualified to say: Bah. Thats not a knife.
posted by snarfodox at 3:34 PM on May 6, 2004

I guess that's all $14 will buy some folks.
posted by Sangre Azul at 3:49 PM on May 6, 2004

Lay into the animatronic band instead. People will love you.

Don't climb the tree. Grizzlies generally don't climb trees. They just knock them over.

Living in Australia, you've got far more things to worry about than a few mostly-harmless bears. Damn near everything in that crazy country is lethal.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:03 PM on May 6, 2004 [1 favorite]

Except the koala bears, ironically.
posted by Space Coyote at 9:31 PM on May 6, 2004 [1 favorite]

No, I've heard they hide up in the trees, and then drop down on unsuspecting passers-by, bouncing off the poor victim's head, rending them unconscious.

Very dangerous, the koalas.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:47 PM on May 6, 2004

kwantzar is actually minya.
posted by quonsar at 1:41 PM on May 10, 2004

five fresh fish - that's actually the Australian drop bear, not the koala.

I reckon if she wore a yellow jump suit and had a Hattori Hanzo knife she'd win any day.

I need to watch less movies..
posted by Mossy at 2:22 PM on May 10, 2004

well, if somehow you managed to get the bear in the eyes first and blind it, then you'd have a fair chance. you'd just have to dodge the flailing limbs a lot.

think triffid versus blind human.

and mossy's right, a hattori hanzo knife would work perfectly. and we both need to watch less movies....
posted by knapah at 3:30 PM on May 10, 2004

I suppose it would be possible, but highly impractical. I think after kicking one bear's ass, I'd consider that "consistent" enough for one life-time. I think a knife is the wrong weapon, but a ranged one such as a poleaxe or a flail... I mean, the bear has like over a foot of reach on a human, so it's not even remotely fair to stick the human with a piddly little knife.

Considering no one has offered up how to kill one grizzly, let alone many grizzlies, I think it's safe to say that the answer is "no".

If anyone's willing to try, please send footage; so as to discourage other grizzly grapplers. :)
posted by Dark Messiah at 6:53 PM on May 10, 2004

How about, instead of a Target store, it was a Chuck E Cheese restaurant?

Pffft. If you managed to lure a bear into a Chuck E Cheese, it'd willingly commit suicide.
posted by deborah at 11:29 PM on May 13, 2004