Looking for more than just "being annoying"
September 17, 2010 11:50 AM Subscribe
Several people I work with/socialize with/etc. fall into the same habit and I want to get a handle on what to call what they are doing so I can help explain it to them.
Basically they operate like this:
1. They are highly demanding when they order things (food, accomodations, office supplies, etc).
2. Because of this, instead of simply ordering a hotel room online, or ordering something on the menu at a restaurant they insist on talking at length about their order with the server, concierge, etc. They will do things like repeating their orders several times, or make a numbered list of their requirements.
3. They think this will ensure they get superior service to the average anonymous Joe.
4. Invariably their order is confused, frequently they get worse service than I do.
4. They wonder why they are "so unlucky" and are upset.
5. Next time they order, they are even more particular.
Basically they operate like this:
1. They are highly demanding when they order things (food, accomodations, office supplies, etc).
2. Because of this, instead of simply ordering a hotel room online, or ordering something on the menu at a restaurant they insist on talking at length about their order with the server, concierge, etc. They will do things like repeating their orders several times, or make a numbered list of their requirements.
3. They think this will ensure they get superior service to the average anonymous Joe.
4. Invariably their order is confused, frequently they get worse service than I do.
4. They wonder why they are "so unlucky" and are upset.
5. Next time they order, they are even more particular.
Yep. High maintenance. cf: Harry Met Sally.
posted by beelzbubba at 11:52 AM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by beelzbubba at 11:52 AM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm going to go with
1. "Show them this thread".
2. ???
3. Change you can believe in! (and profit)
Even without feedback from anyone else yet, I already understand your grievance completely.
posted by Biru at 11:53 AM on September 17, 2010
1. "Show them this thread".
2. ???
3. Change you can believe in! (and profit)
Even without feedback from anyone else yet, I already understand your grievance completely.
posted by Biru at 11:53 AM on September 17, 2010
I have heard this behavior (or parts of it) called "maximizing" -- the trick is to do this and be polite and tip extremely well. That gets you great service -- I can attest from personal experience on both sides of the fence. The trouble is that many people like this are (sometimes) extremely rude, don't say please and thank you, and under tip (or do not tip at all). They also (sometimes) think that the servicepeople helping them are total idiots who can't understand that they don't want ketchup on their hamburger (or whatever), and treat the servicepeople accordingly -- condescendingly, rudely, etc. A bad attitude (almost always) equals bad service.
posted by shamash at 11:57 AM on September 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by shamash at 11:57 AM on September 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: High-maintenance is certainly part of it, but the twist is they are being so overly specific that they end up being confusing.
posted by 2bucksplus at 11:59 AM on September 17, 2010
posted by 2bucksplus at 11:59 AM on September 17, 2010
...or make a numbered list of their requirements.
Can I just say that I love that your question is a numbered list? Heh.
Yep, it's high-maintenance. Or in the case of an ex-friend of mine, just straight up being inconsiderate and thinking everyone else on the planet but them is a total idiot who couldn't possibly fathom what "medium rare" means.
On preview...high maintenance to the point of self-sabotage? I can't think of anything more concise.
posted by AlisonM at 12:00 PM on September 17, 2010
Can I just say that I love that your question is a numbered list? Heh.
Yep, it's high-maintenance. Or in the case of an ex-friend of mine, just straight up being inconsiderate and thinking everyone else on the planet but them is a total idiot who couldn't possibly fathom what "medium rare" means.
On preview...high maintenance to the point of self-sabotage? I can't think of anything more concise.
posted by AlisonM at 12:00 PM on September 17, 2010
Overly specific IS being high-maintenance - their orders or requirements are so out of the realm of standard/normal that it requires extra attention, e.g., maintenance.
The term is high - maintenance. Or demanding. Or obnoxious douchebags.
posted by micawber at 12:01 PM on September 17, 2010 [7 favorites]
The term is high - maintenance. Or demanding. Or obnoxious douchebags.
posted by micawber at 12:01 PM on September 17, 2010 [7 favorites]
situational unaware and inept ... seems politer than douchebag
posted by jannw at 12:05 PM on September 17, 2010
posted by jannw at 12:05 PM on September 17, 2010
High-maintenance is certainly part of it, but the twist is they are being so overly specific that they end up being confusing.
The fact that their extreme specificity in the hopes of getting better service ends up leading to worse service is an example of irony.
posted by JohnMarston at 12:09 PM on September 17, 2010
The fact that their extreme specificity in the hopes of getting better service ends up leading to worse service is an example of irony.
posted by JohnMarston at 12:09 PM on September 17, 2010
Overblown sense of entitlement? It could be that what they're after is not really a special menu item, but attention, more service than others receive, and status.
Also, see Narcissism. (I do like micawber's "obnoxious douchebags".)
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 12:10 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
Also, see Narcissism. (I do like micawber's "obnoxious douchebags".)
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 12:10 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
2bucksplus: "... so overly specific that they end up being confusing."
It would be great if you could give an example of this.
My father-in-law has a number of food issues so ordering in a restaurant he's unfamiliar with involves a 20-minute discussion with the server about spices, kind of oil used etc. He's a very high-maintenance person to eat with (for the server definitely and for us if we're hungry) but he never has problems getting exactly what he requests.
Where exactly does the communication break down? Are they rude? Do they ask conflicting questions? Do they change their order multiple times?
posted by victoriab at 12:13 PM on September 17, 2010
It would be great if you could give an example of this.
My father-in-law has a number of food issues so ordering in a restaurant he's unfamiliar with involves a 20-minute discussion with the server about spices, kind of oil used etc. He's a very high-maintenance person to eat with (for the server definitely and for us if we're hungry) but he never has problems getting exactly what he requests.
Where exactly does the communication break down? Are they rude? Do they ask conflicting questions? Do they change their order multiple times?
posted by victoriab at 12:13 PM on September 17, 2010
ordering something on the menu at a restaurant they insist on talking at length about their order with the server, concierge, etc
Inability to communicate effectively. Specifically, trying to deliver a message out of context with other messages (i.e. handing a numbered list to someone who only ever deals with verbal requests). And drowning your message recipient in ancillary, irrelevant details.
On the latter point, someone I know with allergies orders food, and insists on explaining to the server the specific nature of the allergies.
"Why do you tell them you have gluten and casein allergies?"
"So they'll know about it and make my order right."
"So why not just order what you want rather than tell them all the things you don't want?"
"Because if I don't tell them, they'll mess it up."
"Yes, but most people have never even heard of 'gluten' and 'casein.' You're only confusing them. Just say it in easy-to-grasp mechanics. 'I'll have a plain burger, no bun, no cheese.' Period. Done. End of verbal transaction."
"I can't believe I married you."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:17 PM on September 17, 2010 [10 favorites]
Inability to communicate effectively. Specifically, trying to deliver a message out of context with other messages (i.e. handing a numbered list to someone who only ever deals with verbal requests). And drowning your message recipient in ancillary, irrelevant details.
On the latter point, someone I know with allergies orders food, and insists on explaining to the server the specific nature of the allergies.
"Why do you tell them you have gluten and casein allergies?"
"So they'll know about it and make my order right."
"So why not just order what you want rather than tell them all the things you don't want?"
"Because if I don't tell them, they'll mess it up."
"Yes, but most people have never even heard of 'gluten' and 'casein.' You're only confusing them. Just say it in easy-to-grasp mechanics. 'I'll have a plain burger, no bun, no cheese.' Period. Done. End of verbal transaction."
"I can't believe I married you."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:17 PM on September 17, 2010 [10 favorites]
I'm curious, how specific are these requirements, how nice are they when they communicate them, and where do you live? In every part of the US I've been in, the following orders have been universally acceptable:
- I order my burgers well done, lettuce, tomato, mustard only;
- burritos without sauce or onions (sometimes saying "just beans and cheese")
- my Olive Garden salads without onions, olives, or pepper things
- etc.
I am the queen of high maintenance eating and I generally get great service, even in new restaurants. This makes me think the word you need is "rude."
posted by SMPA at 12:18 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
- I order my burgers well done, lettuce, tomato, mustard only;
- burritos without sauce or onions (sometimes saying "just beans and cheese")
- my Olive Garden salads without onions, olives, or pepper things
- etc.
I am the queen of high maintenance eating and I generally get great service, even in new restaurants. This makes me think the word you need is "rude."
posted by SMPA at 12:18 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
I can't really speak to the special accommodations of fine dining, but to the cries of my arteries, I've ordered hundreds of cheeseburgers. Nine times out of 10, I want them exactly the same: meat, cheese and bun only. No lettuce, no tomato and certainly no type of any sauce.
I used to just say "plain," and it would never work out as planned. I can pick off the veggies, but I really don't want mayo or mustard or whatever else a given place selects to ruin a palette.
Eventually, when my burger came back "wrong," I didn't want to blame the restaurant but my own lack of clarity. Added to an overall void of confidence and not wanting to be a burden, I threw away hundreds of dollars on sauce-lathered burgers that I simply refused to eat. At some point, I hate to admit, but I actually considered a numbered list in order to save myself from a wasted $10.
Over time, my ordering has progressed to the point where I will say, exactly: "Hi! I'd like a cheeseburger, plain, with only the meat, Swiss cheese (gotten processed American affixed to my meat so many times that's found its way quickly to the trash) and the bun... only the meat, bun and Swiss. Plain. Thanks a lot!"
When I get my order, it's now almost always correct. I'm always very nice and thankful and tip at least 20%, but I no longer hesitate to send something back and my stomach always leaves full.
posted by brad! at 12:19 PM on September 17, 2010
I used to just say "plain," and it would never work out as planned. I can pick off the veggies, but I really don't want mayo or mustard or whatever else a given place selects to ruin a palette.
Eventually, when my burger came back "wrong," I didn't want to blame the restaurant but my own lack of clarity. Added to an overall void of confidence and not wanting to be a burden, I threw away hundreds of dollars on sauce-lathered burgers that I simply refused to eat. At some point, I hate to admit, but I actually considered a numbered list in order to save myself from a wasted $10.
Over time, my ordering has progressed to the point where I will say, exactly: "Hi! I'd like a cheeseburger, plain, with only the meat, Swiss cheese (gotten processed American affixed to my meat so many times that's found its way quickly to the trash) and the bun... only the meat, bun and Swiss. Plain. Thanks a lot!"
When I get my order, it's now almost always correct. I'm always very nice and thankful and tip at least 20%, but I no longer hesitate to send something back and my stomach always leaves full.
posted by brad! at 12:19 PM on September 17, 2010
Nit-picky + exacting + finicky + demanding = counterproductive + overly demanding + wearying. Any of those words any good to you?
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 12:26 PM on September 17, 2010
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 12:26 PM on September 17, 2010
Yes, high maintenance and entitled and possibly rude and bad communicators.
But the part where they actually end up getting worse service because of all that makes me think they're also expecting too much from the businesses they're dealing with. I don't know if there's a word for it, but it's like a cross between "want to have their cake and eat it too" and "champagne taste, beer budget." Obviously there are restaurants and hotels that cater to entitled, picky customers like this, but they're very specialized and expensive. I could be wrong but something tells me your people think they deserve that type of high-end service even when they're dealing with more regular/everyday type businesses which were not set up to accomodate that.
I would say just "insecure, pretentious show-offs" would cover it. But then I know people like this too, and they're not all those negative things in other areas of life. They just learned, somewhere, to think they'll get more by being very demanding in certain situations.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 12:32 PM on September 17, 2010
But the part where they actually end up getting worse service because of all that makes me think they're also expecting too much from the businesses they're dealing with. I don't know if there's a word for it, but it's like a cross between "want to have their cake and eat it too" and "champagne taste, beer budget." Obviously there are restaurants and hotels that cater to entitled, picky customers like this, but they're very specialized and expensive. I could be wrong but something tells me your people think they deserve that type of high-end service even when they're dealing with more regular/everyday type businesses which were not set up to accomodate that.
I would say just "insecure, pretentious show-offs" would cover it. But then I know people like this too, and they're not all those negative things in other areas of life. They just learned, somewhere, to think they'll get more by being very demanding in certain situations.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 12:32 PM on September 17, 2010
On the latter point, someone I know with allergies orders food, and insists on explaining to the server the specific nature of the allergies.
You'd be surprised at the crazy crap that sometimes gets put on food if you don't explicitly provide a list of what not to do. I can't even begin to make a list of all the crazy ways I've seen milk get into a meal. The most common being people not realizing that butter is made from milk. Or that cheese is made from milk. Dead serious about this.
On the other hand I tip 20% and I'm generally nice to servers. Your friends sound like jerks.
posted by An algorithmic dog at 12:45 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
You'd be surprised at the crazy crap that sometimes gets put on food if you don't explicitly provide a list of what not to do. I can't even begin to make a list of all the crazy ways I've seen milk get into a meal. The most common being people not realizing that butter is made from milk. Or that cheese is made from milk. Dead serious about this.
On the other hand I tip 20% and I'm generally nice to servers. Your friends sound like jerks.
posted by An algorithmic dog at 12:45 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I don't really think of these people as jerks, but you be the judge. Here's an example:
A coworker and I recently booked hotel rooms in a hotel we frequently use for business. I simply had our receptionist book a room online under the professional conference we are attending. My coworker calls up the concierge at the hotel, asked for the rooms on a certain side of the hotel using a certain elevator and then asked what the layout was and if we could get them under the conference account rate even though they are technically outside the block reserved. My coworker mentions that he frequently stays in the hotel and knows it very well so he wants a room with a certain view but still convenient to the conference center. He thought he had pinned their reservation almost down to the exact room he wanted and suggests that I should have done the same thing. He is convinced that his room will be superior to mine and far more convenient. Of course, the concierge in a hotel doesn't actually book rooms, but he promised to help my coworker and transfers him to the call center to book the room. My coworker reiterates all the requests he gave earlier to the concierge and the call center guy promises to put all this in the notes on the room reservation.
A few weeks later we check in to the hotel. My room happens to be right by the elevator to the conference, right by all the other conference attendees. My coworker's room is in some far off wing. It's weirdly shaped and doesn't have a closet. It was obviously a smoking room until just recently. He also for some reason doesn’t get the free USA Today in the morning and no one in the hotel can figure out why. When he checks out he realizes he has been charged the prevailing hotel rate (higher than the conference rate) and also was supposed to check out a day later and so has to argue at the front desk while I’m waiting in a cab to go to the airport. Ultimately, our poor receptionist is still sorting out the room charge a week after we return to the office.
What happened in this case is that because he was so specific he sort of fell through the cracks and they gave him a worse room and worse service than he would have received if he went through normal channels. He thinks he is saving work for the receptionist by booking the room himself, but she is actually stuck with sorting out a bill which is far more time consuming than simply booking my room. Not to mention all the time he wasted on the phone first with the concierge, then on the phone with the call center, then arguing at the lobby desk.
posted by 2bucksplus at 12:59 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
A coworker and I recently booked hotel rooms in a hotel we frequently use for business. I simply had our receptionist book a room online under the professional conference we are attending. My coworker calls up the concierge at the hotel, asked for the rooms on a certain side of the hotel using a certain elevator and then asked what the layout was and if we could get them under the conference account rate even though they are technically outside the block reserved. My coworker mentions that he frequently stays in the hotel and knows it very well so he wants a room with a certain view but still convenient to the conference center. He thought he had pinned their reservation almost down to the exact room he wanted and suggests that I should have done the same thing. He is convinced that his room will be superior to mine and far more convenient. Of course, the concierge in a hotel doesn't actually book rooms, but he promised to help my coworker and transfers him to the call center to book the room. My coworker reiterates all the requests he gave earlier to the concierge and the call center guy promises to put all this in the notes on the room reservation.
A few weeks later we check in to the hotel. My room happens to be right by the elevator to the conference, right by all the other conference attendees. My coworker's room is in some far off wing. It's weirdly shaped and doesn't have a closet. It was obviously a smoking room until just recently. He also for some reason doesn’t get the free USA Today in the morning and no one in the hotel can figure out why. When he checks out he realizes he has been charged the prevailing hotel rate (higher than the conference rate) and also was supposed to check out a day later and so has to argue at the front desk while I’m waiting in a cab to go to the airport. Ultimately, our poor receptionist is still sorting out the room charge a week after we return to the office.
What happened in this case is that because he was so specific he sort of fell through the cracks and they gave him a worse room and worse service than he would have received if he went through normal channels. He thinks he is saving work for the receptionist by booking the room himself, but she is actually stuck with sorting out a bill which is far more time consuming than simply booking my room. Not to mention all the time he wasted on the phone first with the concierge, then on the phone with the call center, then arguing at the lobby desk.
posted by 2bucksplus at 12:59 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
He thinks he is saving work for the receptionist by booking the room himself
He would be, if the person listened to him in the first place.
The problem is, people don't listen. They don't listen to one instruction, and they don't listen to ten instructions. In fact, they don't listen so much these days that you almost have to be a dick and hand them an itemized list, numbered, with footnotes to get the same service you would have gotten with a quick word to a person with half a brain on their shoulders. But today? Nope.
Unfortunately, this has a nasty side-effect. Because the minute someone gets it wrong even after you've gone out of your way to make a complete idiot of yourself in public… well, that's IT, then, isn't it? That's when you go really crazy. The more "they" should have gotten it—and didn't—the crazier you imagine you have to be in order to make any kind of impression on those morons in the service industry that simply phone-it-in every day and exist on auto-pilot.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 1:14 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
He would be, if the person listened to him in the first place.
The problem is, people don't listen. They don't listen to one instruction, and they don't listen to ten instructions. In fact, they don't listen so much these days that you almost have to be a dick and hand them an itemized list, numbered, with footnotes to get the same service you would have gotten with a quick word to a person with half a brain on their shoulders. But today? Nope.
Unfortunately, this has a nasty side-effect. Because the minute someone gets it wrong even after you've gone out of your way to make a complete idiot of yourself in public… well, that's IT, then, isn't it? That's when you go really crazy. The more "they" should have gotten it—and didn't—the crazier you imagine you have to be in order to make any kind of impression on those morons in the service industry that simply phone-it-in every day and exist on auto-pilot.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 1:14 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
What you described just now seems like a textbook example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. He's missing the forest for the trees, has no idea he's missed it, and is actually incapable of knowing why he's missed it.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:14 PM on September 17, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:14 PM on September 17, 2010 [6 favorites]
He would be, if the person listened to him in the first place.
But apparently he spoke to the concierge first -- a person that doesn't book rooms. It's not that the concierge wasn't listening (maybe he wasn't), it was that you're giving him information and requests out of context with what his job is and what information he normally handles.
It's like asking a blind man for fashion advice. Any suggestion he makes should be suspect.
You, as a smart person, should know that, and tailor your message appropriately.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:20 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
But apparently he spoke to the concierge first -- a person that doesn't book rooms. It's not that the concierge wasn't listening (maybe he wasn't), it was that you're giving him information and requests out of context with what his job is and what information he normally handles.
It's like asking a blind man for fashion advice. Any suggestion he makes should be suspect.
You, as a smart person, should know that, and tailor your message appropriately.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:20 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
"Muddying the water"?
"over-complicating"?
"control freaks"?
Those people drive me nuts because the things you're talking about are generally simple and I'm just terrified of what happens when I have to work on a project with one of them.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 1:21 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
"over-complicating"?
"control freaks"?
Those people drive me nuts because the things you're talking about are generally simple and I'm just terrified of what happens when I have to work on a project with one of them.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 1:21 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
To me that feels like a type of (lack of) situational awareness. They don't seem to be able to see their transaction in a context outside of their own imagining - wherein their specificity is a wonderful, helpful thing. Likewise their ideas of what is normal, appropriate, advisable, or permissible tend to be at variance with common understanding, for a given context.
posted by cairnish at 1:24 PM on September 17, 2010
posted by cairnish at 1:24 PM on September 17, 2010
I don't think this is a behavior you should seek to correct (though it drives me totally nuts as well). Unless you have an intimate/family (or possibly mentor) relationship with someone, trying to "fix" poor social graces will probably lead to awkwardness at best.
Lead by example. Make eye contact with and smile to the service staff. Be their karmic ally.
posted by mkultra at 1:28 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
Lead by example. Make eye contact with and smile to the service staff. Be their karmic ally.
posted by mkultra at 1:28 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
The example you gave includes some bad luck - the weird shape, no closet, smells like smoke, no paper issues are sort of random. But he could have foreseen that booking a room on the other side of the hotel and outside the conference block for the sake of the view would mean he was going to pay more and be far away from everyone for a pretty minor perk. So that just seems poorly thought out...
posted by mdn at 1:34 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by mdn at 1:34 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Micromanaging?
posted by jon1270 at 1:35 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by jon1270 at 1:35 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
The husband is an extremely orderly man and works in a luxury hospitality environment where everyone he deals with is SOMEONE... He has a list of questions that he goes through, which is prompted by a computer program, with each client. He almost NEVER makes mistakes. In fact, in the 5 years he has been doing this, he has erred twice. Nothing gets on his nerves more than a client such as the OP describes who needs to explain the why and where and whom.
These people aren't just high maintenance - they are entitled, know-it-all narcissists with an exaggerated sense of importance.
posted by Sophie1 at 1:40 PM on September 17, 2010 [10 favorites]
These people aren't just high maintenance - they are entitled, know-it-all narcissists with an exaggerated sense of importance.
posted by Sophie1 at 1:40 PM on September 17, 2010 [10 favorites]
I'd say that what you've described sounds like selfishness with a very thin veneer of justification put on top of it. This guy wanted a particular room, for cheap, with a particular view. It wasn't about saving the receptionist time or hassle at all, it was about him getting exactly what he wanted in exactly the way he wanted it. That he didn't get what he wanted is almost beside the point - very likely he only *thought* he wanted that anyway. As you point out, your room was quite conveniently located and his wasn't - and wouldn't have been no matter what the closet situation or newspaper status.
In my experience this type of person will over-specify everything, which creates ample opportunities for things to go wrong. They tend to be both self-absorbed and poor communicators, which exacerbates the situation. Then, when any little thing goes wrong (or a big thing, or a lot of big things) they blame the entire event on other people's incompetence and (absurdly) try to claim that the whole fiasco was about saving someone else effort or money.
posted by lriG rorriM at 1:58 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
In my experience this type of person will over-specify everything, which creates ample opportunities for things to go wrong. They tend to be both self-absorbed and poor communicators, which exacerbates the situation. Then, when any little thing goes wrong (or a big thing, or a lot of big things) they blame the entire event on other people's incompetence and (absurdly) try to claim that the whole fiasco was about saving someone else effort or money.
posted by lriG rorriM at 1:58 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
"Cheese burger! Cheese burger! No Pepsi - Coke!"
The problem is your friends have never worked in hospitality/restaurants and they don't know how to communicate:(
Someone up thread discussed ordering a plain hamburger? That's, "Sauce on the side, please!"
See?
When I go "off menu" with complicated orders, I try to present the info in the same format it is read/understood by the kitchen.
I think your friends have been like this so long, they're exasperated. And now, very obnoxious. I don't know if they could "re-learn" etiquette for these situations, but I would try gently framing the issue for them as, "try to communicate your order from the perspective of the kitchen staff."
Also, do it the right way in front of them. Be a good influence and maybe they will learn by example!
posted by jbenben at 2:07 PM on September 17, 2010
The problem is your friends have never worked in hospitality/restaurants and they don't know how to communicate:(
Someone up thread discussed ordering a plain hamburger? That's, "Sauce on the side, please!"
See?
When I go "off menu" with complicated orders, I try to present the info in the same format it is read/understood by the kitchen.
I think your friends have been like this so long, they're exasperated. And now, very obnoxious. I don't know if they could "re-learn" etiquette for these situations, but I would try gently framing the issue for them as, "try to communicate your order from the perspective of the kitchen staff."
Also, do it the right way in front of them. Be a good influence and maybe they will learn by example!
posted by jbenben at 2:07 PM on September 17, 2010
Oops. Just read your update.
Ditto on the hotel thing.
His best bet would have been to book online, then switch upon check-in to the desired wing/location. We know that, your friend did not. Again, a lack of knowledge concerning how things flow behind the scenes in service oriented venues.
Upon reflection I don't know that these types can be saved! Here's hoping they mellow with experience and age?
posted by jbenben at 2:14 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ditto on the hotel thing.
His best bet would have been to book online, then switch upon check-in to the desired wing/location. We know that, your friend did not. Again, a lack of knowledge concerning how things flow behind the scenes in service oriented venues.
Upon reflection I don't know that these types can be saved! Here's hoping they mellow with experience and age?
posted by jbenben at 2:14 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
I had a boss like this once. Despite there being a clear chart on the menu describing how the kitchen cooks "rare", "medium-rare", etc. steaks, she insisted on not reading the menu, then getting stroppy with the waiter when her steak was done "wrong".
On the one hand, they're picky and want things a certain way, and on the other hand, tend to be completely oblivious to the tools put in place by the establishment to try and help them to maximize the service they get. Thus the laundry lists of details that don't get followed.
I'm going to go with "demanding, yet not paying attention".
posted by LN at 2:46 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
On the one hand, they're picky and want things a certain way, and on the other hand, tend to be completely oblivious to the tools put in place by the establishment to try and help them to maximize the service they get. Thus the laundry lists of details that don't get followed.
I'm going to go with "demanding, yet not paying attention".
posted by LN at 2:46 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
During my stint working in a four star hotel, we'd routinely put these assholes in shitty rooms. We'd honestly bookmark their reservations because they were so unbearable to deal with; this bookmark was visible to front desk staff, reservations staff, management, and security and the whiny guests were treated accordingly. So I'm thinkin' it's no random act that your coworker ended up in the room he did.
Furthermore, I worked in a restaurant where the kitchen staff would routinely play floor hockey with the food of customers who bitched at them and treated them poorly. No exaggeration, I'm afraid.
I'm not saying those things were right to do, just that's how it was, and I'm presuming still is. I guess that's a long way of saying you reap what you sow and/or never underestimate the power of people in the service industry.
If you opt to discuss this with your self-absorbed coworkers (and I think that's an act of futility), make your appeal about THEM, because that's the only thing that matters to them. They'll never care about the admin assistant's feelings, or the server's feelings, or the hotel staff's feelings. Explain that being demanding is actually getting them the opposite of what they want, and in their view, what they want is paramount. That's pretty much their only concern, so you'd have to appeal to that aspect.
posted by December at 2:50 PM on September 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
Furthermore, I worked in a restaurant where the kitchen staff would routinely play floor hockey with the food of customers who bitched at them and treated them poorly. No exaggeration, I'm afraid.
I'm not saying those things were right to do, just that's how it was, and I'm presuming still is. I guess that's a long way of saying you reap what you sow and/or never underestimate the power of people in the service industry.
If you opt to discuss this with your self-absorbed coworkers (and I think that's an act of futility), make your appeal about THEM, because that's the only thing that matters to them. They'll never care about the admin assistant's feelings, or the server's feelings, or the hotel staff's feelings. Explain that being demanding is actually getting them the opposite of what they want, and in their view, what they want is paramount. That's pretty much their only concern, so you'd have to appeal to that aspect.
posted by December at 2:50 PM on September 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
I'd have to go with rude, obnoxious, and high-maintenance. You say it's not rude, but to anyone who's been on the other end of these encounters, it likely is perceived that way; no one goes the extra mile for someone who is being rude to them. Take the following 2 situations:
1. "I want a burger, no cheese, extra mayo, but put the onions on the side, cook it medium rare, don't overcook it, because I want it medium rare and not medium, no ketchup, and a salad instead of fries, dressing on the side; really don't mix the dressing in, because then the lettuce gets soggy" can translate in the kitchen to "wow, the guy at table 6 is such an a$$h01e"
2. "Hi, how are you? Can I get a burger, medium rare, no cheese or ketchup, but extra mayo; can you put the onions on the side? Thank you so much. Oh, and is it possible to substitute a salad in place of the fries? Awesome - could I get the dressing on the side?" translates to "ok, for table 6 I need a burger, medium rare, no cheese no ketchup, extra mayo, onions on the side; salad instead of fries; dressing on the side"
The reason things go so wrong for these friends of yours is that they are treating service people like idiots. If they were just nicer and not so self-absorbed they would get much better results. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your friends are jerks, plain and simple.
posted by melissasaurus at 3:08 PM on September 17, 2010 [4 favorites]
1. "I want a burger, no cheese, extra mayo, but put the onions on the side, cook it medium rare, don't overcook it, because I want it medium rare and not medium, no ketchup, and a salad instead of fries, dressing on the side; really don't mix the dressing in, because then the lettuce gets soggy" can translate in the kitchen to "wow, the guy at table 6 is such an a$$h01e"
2. "Hi, how are you? Can I get a burger, medium rare, no cheese or ketchup, but extra mayo; can you put the onions on the side? Thank you so much. Oh, and is it possible to substitute a salad in place of the fries? Awesome - could I get the dressing on the side?" translates to "ok, for table 6 I need a burger, medium rare, no cheese no ketchup, extra mayo, onions on the side; salad instead of fries; dressing on the side"
The reason things go so wrong for these friends of yours is that they are treating service people like idiots. If they were just nicer and not so self-absorbed they would get much better results. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your friends are jerks, plain and simple.
posted by melissasaurus at 3:08 PM on September 17, 2010 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure how a good tip is really going to help you get great service, especially when you're making obnoxious requests. Unless you're enough of a regular that the staff recognizes you (and therefore already knows you're high maintenance), they don't know how well you'll tip until after the service has been provided. I always err on the side of tipping extremely well, but that's to thank the staff for taking care of me, not to get better service in the future.
Really, I don't get the whole convoluted special requests thing. It all just seems very self-centered and counterproductive to me. Then again, I'm not all that picky compared to what's being discussed by the OP. I do expect good service from hotel and restaurant employees. I expect a nice room in a hotel, and I expect good food from a restaurant. But I get those things by choosing hotels and restaurants that provide the kinds of things I want. I don't go to Best Western and try to haggle my way into a Four Seasons experience -- I go to the Four Seasons and let them do their job. I don't go to Sizzler and try to talk them into making my steak the way Peter Luger makes it. I also virtually never ask for something unusual at a restaurant, though I don't have a problem with people asking for simple changes to accommodate an allergy or a preference. But if you have to make a fifteen point list to explain how you want your food to differ from the standard offering, either you're at the wrong restaurant or you shouldn't be eating out...
posted by sharding at 3:23 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
Really, I don't get the whole convoluted special requests thing. It all just seems very self-centered and counterproductive to me. Then again, I'm not all that picky compared to what's being discussed by the OP. I do expect good service from hotel and restaurant employees. I expect a nice room in a hotel, and I expect good food from a restaurant. But I get those things by choosing hotels and restaurants that provide the kinds of things I want. I don't go to Best Western and try to haggle my way into a Four Seasons experience -- I go to the Four Seasons and let them do their job. I don't go to Sizzler and try to talk them into making my steak the way Peter Luger makes it. I also virtually never ask for something unusual at a restaurant, though I don't have a problem with people asking for simple changes to accommodate an allergy or a preference. But if you have to make a fifteen point list to explain how you want your food to differ from the standard offering, either you're at the wrong restaurant or you shouldn't be eating out...
posted by sharding at 3:23 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
Control Freaks. Stemming from perfectionism. There are so many options these days that a lot of people go overboard trying to get just the right thing. 'Perfect' seems attainable, and when something's not perfect (which it never is), these people kind of go off their rockers. Partially from blaming themselves, and partially from blaming others/the universe.
I understand what it's like to fall into such stupid thinking . . . it's human. But there's definitely no excuse for treating service people live servants/slaves. And there's no excuse for bringing down other peoples' good times either.
posted by imalaowai at 3:35 PM on September 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
I understand what it's like to fall into such stupid thinking . . . it's human. But there's definitely no excuse for treating service people live servants/slaves. And there's no excuse for bringing down other peoples' good times either.
posted by imalaowai at 3:35 PM on September 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
Lack of empathy. These people are unaware that not only are other people actually people just like them, but that they may and probably do think differently than them. Nothing to be done, unless you can convince them to live in the desert and meditate or something.
posted by cmoj at 3:39 PM on September 17, 2010
posted by cmoj at 3:39 PM on September 17, 2010
Fussy.
posted by penguin pie at 3:46 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by penguin pie at 3:46 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
His extreme attention to detail is so out of scale with what is required in the circumstance as to be self-defeating. He shoots himself in the foot by giving so many specific instructions that in order to meet them all, other aspects that he had not thought of get messed up and make it all for naught.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 3:52 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 3:52 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
These people aren't just high maintenance - they are entitled, know-it-all narcissists with an exaggerated sense of importance.
And they are also (sometimes) trying to show off just how much more experienced and knowledgeable they are at [whatever]. And very, very rarely, they acknowledge that they are needy and fully expect to be charged extra and will tip well.
Although sometimes, and I'm not talking about myself at all here, sometimes people might seem to be needy like this, when they are just trying to find out what's going on. Like "what's on the Reuben?" or "I want the hamburger to not have any pink in it, is that 'medium' or 'well done' here?" These people aren't trying to be demanding or change anything, they just want to know what's what so they can order what will satisfy them the most.
I've found that this behavior almost never bothers the waitpeople, but almost universally bothers dining companions. The laissez-faire eaters can't possibly understand what the difference is, and the control freaks would say "who cares what they normally do, just TELL them what you want!"
(This is hard to do in restaurants, but works in almost all other scenarios: pre-tip. Throw them a $20, or a $100 if the situation demands it, and then state your preferences as nicely as possible. People will almost always trip over themselves to help you out. Not because "you paid extra", but because you showed them trust. There was no quid-pro-quo. You aren't saying "there is a fiver in it for you if you manage to not screw up". You are saying "I trust you to do a good job."
Of course, the people we are talking about here would never do something like this, because they are misanthropic.)
posted by gjc at 4:25 PM on September 17, 2010
And they are also (sometimes) trying to show off just how much more experienced and knowledgeable they are at [whatever]. And very, very rarely, they acknowledge that they are needy and fully expect to be charged extra and will tip well.
Although sometimes, and I'm not talking about myself at all here, sometimes people might seem to be needy like this, when they are just trying to find out what's going on. Like "what's on the Reuben?" or "I want the hamburger to not have any pink in it, is that 'medium' or 'well done' here?" These people aren't trying to be demanding or change anything, they just want to know what's what so they can order what will satisfy them the most.
I've found that this behavior almost never bothers the waitpeople, but almost universally bothers dining companions. The laissez-faire eaters can't possibly understand what the difference is, and the control freaks would say "who cares what they normally do, just TELL them what you want!"
(This is hard to do in restaurants, but works in almost all other scenarios: pre-tip. Throw them a $20, or a $100 if the situation demands it, and then state your preferences as nicely as possible. People will almost always trip over themselves to help you out. Not because "you paid extra", but because you showed them trust. There was no quid-pro-quo. You aren't saying "there is a fiver in it for you if you manage to not screw up". You are saying "I trust you to do a good job."
Of course, the people we are talking about here would never do something like this, because they are misanthropic.)
posted by gjc at 4:25 PM on September 17, 2010
This is called being the kind of person who never gets off with just a warning if they get pulled over.
I don't think there is any reasoning with this kind of behavior. It's not based in logic -- look at the disconnect going on with your coworker, he deliberately booked a room knowing it was further away from the conference, yet he told you his room would be closer.
posted by yohko at 5:06 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't think there is any reasoning with this kind of behavior. It's not based in logic -- look at the disconnect going on with your coworker, he deliberately booked a room knowing it was further away from the conference, yet he told you his room would be closer.
posted by yohko at 5:06 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is indeed high maintenance micro management.
The problem is that generally your friends are throwing a monkey wrench into whatever system the business uses to help their customers. Which means he is asking a service worker (who is probably busy and juggling a bunch of other stuff at the same time) to communicate some special snowflake requirements to other service workers (who are also busy and juggling a bunch of stuff at the same time.) What this results in is the special request falling thru the cracks (because again, you have stepped Outside the System a business has to get things done in) and therefore no one is going to necessarily feel responsible for that Special Snowflake Request. Even if said service worker is extremely conscientious odds favor them getting interrupted at just the wrong time by a boss or someone else and tasked to do something else Very Important and then by the time they get back to the Special Snowflake Request they have either missed the time frame or missed talking to the one person they need to talk to re the Special Snowflake Request (because they got off work or had to go to lunch or are busy and cannot be interrupted) and then by the time that person is available the first person forgot...
When you need to make a specific special request the first thing you have to do is make sure you are talking to the person who can actually Make It So. If this is not possible (such as a waitress taking an order) you need to make the special request as simple and foolproof as possible. Not because your server is an idiot (because he or she isn't) but because she will need to communicate that request second hand to a very busy cook-in other words, lots of chances for misunderstanding or miscommunication.
I work for a flower shop and wind up with the occasional High Maintenance person. Everything usually works much better if a customer can trust that we know what we are doing and how to put together a bouquet and that in general we know way more about that than the customer. If you micromanage us chances are your flowers won't be quite as pretty. Now, if your recipient is allergic to carnations, that is good and useful to know, and we can accomodate you. But in general it is nice if you don't treat us as if we are total idiots.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:08 PM on September 17, 2010 [5 favorites]
The problem is that generally your friends are throwing a monkey wrench into whatever system the business uses to help their customers. Which means he is asking a service worker (who is probably busy and juggling a bunch of other stuff at the same time) to communicate some special snowflake requirements to other service workers (who are also busy and juggling a bunch of stuff at the same time.) What this results in is the special request falling thru the cracks (because again, you have stepped Outside the System a business has to get things done in) and therefore no one is going to necessarily feel responsible for that Special Snowflake Request. Even if said service worker is extremely conscientious odds favor them getting interrupted at just the wrong time by a boss or someone else and tasked to do something else Very Important and then by the time they get back to the Special Snowflake Request they have either missed the time frame or missed talking to the one person they need to talk to re the Special Snowflake Request (because they got off work or had to go to lunch or are busy and cannot be interrupted) and then by the time that person is available the first person forgot...
When you need to make a specific special request the first thing you have to do is make sure you are talking to the person who can actually Make It So. If this is not possible (such as a waitress taking an order) you need to make the special request as simple and foolproof as possible. Not because your server is an idiot (because he or she isn't) but because she will need to communicate that request second hand to a very busy cook-in other words, lots of chances for misunderstanding or miscommunication.
I work for a flower shop and wind up with the occasional High Maintenance person. Everything usually works much better if a customer can trust that we know what we are doing and how to put together a bouquet and that in general we know way more about that than the customer. If you micromanage us chances are your flowers won't be quite as pretty. Now, if your recipient is allergic to carnations, that is good and useful to know, and we can accomodate you. But in general it is nice if you don't treat us as if we are total idiots.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:08 PM on September 17, 2010 [5 favorites]
Ah-ha! Insufferable!
Telling them won't help though.
posted by yohko at 5:09 PM on September 17, 2010
Telling them won't help though.
posted by yohko at 5:09 PM on September 17, 2010
If I understand the question corrrectly, I think A Terrible Llama is on the right track. It's kind of related to "throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks", yes?
I teach. When I demonstrate a task in some piece of software, and I say "Click here" or "Choose this from the menu" or whatever, using simple, short sentences, the students understand and are able to follow along. OTOH, when I am chatty about it, and give extra details, like "Click here because this is the shortest way to do this task, although you could also do it via the X menu", they are less likely to get it right.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 5:28 PM on September 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
I teach. When I demonstrate a task in some piece of software, and I say "Click here" or "Choose this from the menu" or whatever, using simple, short sentences, the students understand and are able to follow along. OTOH, when I am chatty about it, and give extra details, like "Click here because this is the shortest way to do this task, although you could also do it via the X menu", they are less likely to get it right.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 5:28 PM on September 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
I just keep thinking about that "you're not really here for the hunting, are you?" joke.
It seems only logical to assume that these people, consciously or not, want to be disappointed; poorly served; misunderstood. Because they like to feel aggrieved.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 6:12 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
It seems only logical to assume that these people, consciously or not, want to be disappointed; poorly served; misunderstood. Because they like to feel aggrieved.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 6:12 PM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think this is self-entitlement, combined with a simplistic and unrealistic view of life. They are underestimating the complexity of the world—and in your example, the industries they're interacting with—resulting in unrealistic, unachievable expectations, and inevitably, disappointment.
In my experience, there is a subset of people with personalities like this, and life is a kind of low-grade torture for them—things are always going wrong, and it's always other people's fault.
posted by hot soup girl at 8:14 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
In my experience, there is a subset of people with personalities like this, and life is a kind of low-grade torture for them—things are always going wrong, and it's always other people's fault.
posted by hot soup girl at 8:14 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
A particularly unfortunate situation-specific "over explainer".
posted by anaelith at 8:27 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by anaelith at 8:27 PM on September 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Control freaks.
Overblown sense of entitlement.
Tell them to put down the vinegar (and) take up the honey jar. (They'll) catch many more flies.**
**Bonus points if anyone can guess where I took that statement from, lol.
posted by sundrop at 7:46 AM on September 18, 2010
Overblown sense of entitlement.
Tell them to put down the vinegar (and) take up the honey jar. (They'll) catch many more flies.**
**Bonus points if anyone can guess where I took that statement from, lol.
posted by sundrop at 7:46 AM on September 18, 2010
This whole thread is giving me terrible flashbacks to my years of waiting tables... I literally cannot describe the depths of my loathing for people like this. And as many have said above, from a service-worker's perspective, these are the people who get the worst service (and in scummier places, you get worse than just bad service).
For your co-workers, the only thing I can think that would help them (short of what they actually need, a whole paradigm shift where they realize that they are not the center of the universe and their ridiculous "needs" are in reality just evidence of their egotism and entitlement) would be to be more polite. That's the only way to increase their chances of getting what they want. Be polite, and slightly contrite -- if you express to people that you understand that your requests are unusually demanding and that you're sorry, you have a better chance.
Ugh, whenever I get bogged down with school I just remember what it's like to wait tables, and I remember why I'm trying to get an advanced degree.
posted by diocletian at 10:43 AM on September 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
For your co-workers, the only thing I can think that would help them (short of what they actually need, a whole paradigm shift where they realize that they are not the center of the universe and their ridiculous "needs" are in reality just evidence of their egotism and entitlement) would be to be more polite. That's the only way to increase their chances of getting what they want. Be polite, and slightly contrite -- if you express to people that you understand that your requests are unusually demanding and that you're sorry, you have a better chance.
Ugh, whenever I get bogged down with school I just remember what it's like to wait tables, and I remember why I'm trying to get an advanced degree.
posted by diocletian at 10:43 AM on September 18, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is what happens when you read life hacking blogs and take the advice seriously, isn't it?
posted by citron at 3:50 PM on September 18, 2010
posted by citron at 3:50 PM on September 18, 2010
There's also an element of over-perfectionism, and being someone who has never encountered or understood the idea that you can make most things good if you have the right attitude - they think there is one objective, quantitative scale of what makes something (food, hotel rooms etc) "better" or "more enjoyable", and that only by scraping together as many points as possible on that scale can they enjoy it more.
Most people would arrive at a restaurant, and just think "Pretty good food, good company, I'll relax and enjoy myself as much as I can", or "Ooh, free hotel room, cool, now where's the bar?".
These guys think "Well, the food is OK but the only way I can enjoy it more is to get it closer to this perfect ideal I have in my head", or "It's all very well having a hotel room, but it'll be better if it's in the best possible location". If they don't tick all those boxes they've dreamed up, they don't enjoy it at all. Which would make you feel sorry for them, if they didn't then take it out on other people.
posted by penguin pie at 5:42 AM on September 19, 2010
Most people would arrive at a restaurant, and just think "Pretty good food, good company, I'll relax and enjoy myself as much as I can", or "Ooh, free hotel room, cool, now where's the bar?".
These guys think "Well, the food is OK but the only way I can enjoy it more is to get it closer to this perfect ideal I have in my head", or "It's all very well having a hotel room, but it'll be better if it's in the best possible location". If they don't tick all those boxes they've dreamed up, they don't enjoy it at all. Which would make you feel sorry for them, if they didn't then take it out on other people.
posted by penguin pie at 5:42 AM on September 19, 2010
I call people like this 'complexifiers'. I would bet good money that your excessively-detailed-hotel-booking co-workers also get bogged down in details on their work projects too.
I'm not a big-picture person, I do like to work in the small-details areas. But I like to keep the process simple, and to focus on which details are actually important and relevant to the task. Other people are also details people, but they lack focus and so end up including everthing but the kitchen sink in every request or submission they make.
posted by harriet vane at 1:03 AM on September 20, 2010
I'm not a big-picture person, I do like to work in the small-details areas. But I like to keep the process simple, and to focus on which details are actually important and relevant to the task. Other people are also details people, but they lack focus and so end up including everthing but the kitchen sink in every request or submission they make.
posted by harriet vane at 1:03 AM on September 20, 2010
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posted by slyboots421 at 11:52 AM on September 17, 2010 [2 favorites]