is it easier to bulk up or slim down?
August 28, 2010 5:14 AM Subscribe
Is it easier to loose weight in fat or gain weight in muscle?
My 6'3, 46 year old SO is overweight (his BMI is 34-ish) and needs to loose about 40lbs. I'm 27, 5'10 and a stable healthy weight. (my BMI is 23-ish). I want to help him be motivated to loose the weight that at his age is going to begin to cause him health problems. I don't want to pressure him because he's the sort of stubborn person who doesn't like explicit orders; it's important that he feels like he's choosing to do this.
Last night I jokingly proposed that we have a race to see if I could put on 2 stone (28lbs) in muscle before he lost 2 stone in weight. In the fresh light of day I've been giving this more serious thought as a possible motivational tool - and not just for him, because although I'm pretty happy with my body I have wondered for a while about what I'd look like 'buff', so I have a desire to put on muscle independent of his need to shed the pounds.
From our respective starting points I understand the odds are stacked in his favour if I were to attempt to gain 28lbs while he attempted to lose that much, so this wouldn't be a fair challenge. But what would be a fair challenge? Would it be fair for me to attempt to gain the same % of body weight in muscle as he would have to lose in fat, or, as my question goes, is the body inherently better at losing excess fat than it is at gaining muscle (or vice-versa)?
My 6'3, 46 year old SO is overweight (his BMI is 34-ish) and needs to loose about 40lbs. I'm 27, 5'10 and a stable healthy weight. (my BMI is 23-ish). I want to help him be motivated to loose the weight that at his age is going to begin to cause him health problems. I don't want to pressure him because he's the sort of stubborn person who doesn't like explicit orders; it's important that he feels like he's choosing to do this.
Last night I jokingly proposed that we have a race to see if I could put on 2 stone (28lbs) in muscle before he lost 2 stone in weight. In the fresh light of day I've been giving this more serious thought as a possible motivational tool - and not just for him, because although I'm pretty happy with my body I have wondered for a while about what I'd look like 'buff', so I have a desire to put on muscle independent of his need to shed the pounds.
From our respective starting points I understand the odds are stacked in his favour if I were to attempt to gain 28lbs while he attempted to lose that much, so this wouldn't be a fair challenge. But what would be a fair challenge? Would it be fair for me to attempt to gain the same % of body weight in muscle as he would have to lose in fat, or, as my question goes, is the body inherently better at losing excess fat than it is at gaining muscle (or vice-versa)?
28 lb is a TON of muscle. You could certainly gain 28 lb while training hard and eating very, very cleanly (in quantity), but it would still be a mix of fat and muscle.
Conversely, when he loses weight, unless he is on a very strict, extremely well designed regimen (working with a professional coach), he will lose a fair bit of muscle along with fat.
I think the point you're missing here, as someone who is well intentioned but does not struggle with his weight, is that your SO's weight loss needs to be the beginning of a new, life long, healthier lifestyle. Framing this as a competition with an end goal may get him to drop a few stone, but he's unlikely to keep it off.
posted by telegraph at 5:40 AM on August 28, 2010 [4 favorites]
Conversely, when he loses weight, unless he is on a very strict, extremely well designed regimen (working with a professional coach), he will lose a fair bit of muscle along with fat.
I think the point you're missing here, as someone who is well intentioned but does not struggle with his weight, is that your SO's weight loss needs to be the beginning of a new, life long, healthier lifestyle. Framing this as a competition with an end goal may get him to drop a few stone, but he's unlikely to keep it off.
posted by telegraph at 5:40 AM on August 28, 2010 [4 favorites]
It seems like different methods for each I.E.
Lose weight: carb-restricted, lite diet, + exercise.
Gain muscle: High-carb, heavy diet + exercise.
It doesn't seem there'd be a hard and fast rule as to which was fundamentally easier, since individual metabolisms are so different. I suppose if you think about it in terms of sheer effort, it would be, in terms of effort, "easier" to eat a very unhealthy, near-starvation diet & sit around while losing weight, but gaining muscle mass is always going to entail hard exercise.
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:40 AM on August 28, 2010
Lose weight: carb-restricted, lite diet, + exercise.
Gain muscle: High-carb, heavy diet + exercise.
It doesn't seem there'd be a hard and fast rule as to which was fundamentally easier, since individual metabolisms are so different. I suppose if you think about it in terms of sheer effort, it would be, in terms of effort, "easier" to eat a very unhealthy, near-starvation diet & sit around while losing weight, but gaining muscle mass is always going to entail hard exercise.
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:40 AM on August 28, 2010
It's not all that easy to figure out how much the muscle/fat ratio is when gaining or losing. That said, gaining muscle is a very slow process that takes a lot of work. Losing fat, while difficult in its own right, requires mostly that one cuts down on calories. The body stores fat for times of starvation, so losing fat is generally a matter of cutting back calories enough, whether through diet or exercise (burning more than you take in) or, preferably, both.
posted by xingcat at 5:46 AM on August 28, 2010
posted by xingcat at 5:46 AM on August 28, 2010
What others have said -- if your plan is to gain as much muscle as quickly as possible, you'll also be gaining fat. You'll be in the gym doing heavy squats and deadlifts 3x a week, and then you'll pretty much spend the rest of your time sitting on the couch drinking milk by the gallon, eating steaks and peanut-butter sandwiches, and napping. The first gains come easy, so I think maybe gaining the first 10 pounds would be a lot easier than losing 10 pounds, and hopefully most of that 10 would be muscle, but it's hard to say exactly how much except by looking in the mirror. Also, depending on how he chooses to diet he might be losing muscle mass at the same time. So, yeah, setting a target for weight gain is sort of a bad idea. There's no real way you'll be able to prove you've gained so-and-so many pounds of muscle. You'd be better of setting a strength target, like squatting 100 kg or doing 20 pullups. Sorry, I know this doesn't answer your question.
posted by creasy boy at 6:15 AM on August 28, 2010
posted by creasy boy at 6:15 AM on August 28, 2010
My concern would be that at some point you'll sigh, "I'm so tired of eating all these tons of food my trainer says I have to eat!!" And then your SO's slowly shrinking tummy will grumble and he'll get...stabby. Or maybe that'd just be me.
posted by artychoke at 7:18 AM on August 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by artychoke at 7:18 AM on August 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
If it was easy to gain muscle (ESP. 28lbs) everyone would be walking around with a significant amount of muscle.
It's MUCH easier to drop fat.
Also, I love how everyone thinks you're gaining significant muscle when running or doing other cardio. "Oh I only dropped 5lbs but I probably gained 2 lbs in muscle." WRONG.
Very few people can put on any real mass while losing weight. It may happen in small scale for a short period of time but it's not continuous.
In feb this year (6ft male, 25) I wanted to get as lean as possible before a mountaineering trip. I went from 175 to 158 in 5 weeks while keeping all my max lifts. It's taken me from march until now to get to 180 fairly clean and I have another 25lbs to go.
This has included weeks of drinking a gallon of milk a day, constantly feeling stuffed, consuming a lb of veggies a day, etc. It's really hard work gaining quality mass.
I think the best thing you can do is both set realalistic goals with a deadline and motivate each other to reach that.
posted by zephyr_words at 8:17 AM on August 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's MUCH easier to drop fat.
Also, I love how everyone thinks you're gaining significant muscle when running or doing other cardio. "Oh I only dropped 5lbs but I probably gained 2 lbs in muscle." WRONG.
Very few people can put on any real mass while losing weight. It may happen in small scale for a short period of time but it's not continuous.
In feb this year (6ft male, 25) I wanted to get as lean as possible before a mountaineering trip. I went from 175 to 158 in 5 weeks while keeping all my max lifts. It's taken me from march until now to get to 180 fairly clean and I have another 25lbs to go.
This has included weeks of drinking a gallon of milk a day, constantly feeling stuffed, consuming a lb of veggies a day, etc. It's really hard work gaining quality mass.
I think the best thing you can do is both set realalistic goals with a deadline and motivate each other to reach that.
posted by zephyr_words at 8:17 AM on August 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Ok, maybe I didn't explain the scenario and question very clearly. Although I feel like my question has been somewhat answered. For those still confused, how about:
He's fat and needs to shift flab, I'm slim and would like to bulk up.
He's a big guy (6'3, 270lbs), I'm average (5'10, 165lbs).
I thought it would be a good for motivation if we could compete, like on the 'biggest loser', but instead of us both trying to lose weight one of us is bulking up.
What I want to know is: are these two processes (fat loss and muscle gain) remotely comparable?
Like telegraph said, 28lbs is a TON of muscle and could take average ol' me years to put on whereas my overweight SO could probably lose 28lbs of fat in months. So a straight out competition is out of the question.
From what you all say, realistic targets for both of us is going to be the best way forward, but it would've been nice if we could've compared our respective progress' pound for pound.
posted by davidjohnfox at 9:00 AM on August 28, 2010
He's fat and needs to shift flab, I'm slim and would like to bulk up.
He's a big guy (6'3, 270lbs), I'm average (5'10, 165lbs).
I thought it would be a good for motivation if we could compete, like on the 'biggest loser', but instead of us both trying to lose weight one of us is bulking up.
What I want to know is: are these two processes (fat loss and muscle gain) remotely comparable?
Like telegraph said, 28lbs is a TON of muscle and could take average ol' me years to put on whereas my overweight SO could probably lose 28lbs of fat in months. So a straight out competition is out of the question.
From what you all say, realistic targets for both of us is going to be the best way forward, but it would've been nice if we could've compared our respective progress' pound for pound.
posted by davidjohnfox at 9:00 AM on August 28, 2010
You can also look at it a bit simpler.
Fat loss can be had with only dietary changes, unless the person is already very lean, in which case the same steady state cardio could be done pretty much forever.
Muscle gain requires dietary change and hard training that constantly changes as you progress.
Also, after a certain point it's genetically hard for people to keep gaining muscle at anything but a few lbs a year. At any weight you can continue to gain fat and lose it.
posted by zephyr_words at 9:06 AM on August 28, 2010
Fat loss can be had with only dietary changes, unless the person is already very lean, in which case the same steady state cardio could be done pretty much forever.
Muscle gain requires dietary change and hard training that constantly changes as you progress.
Also, after a certain point it's genetically hard for people to keep gaining muscle at anything but a few lbs a year. At any weight you can continue to gain fat and lose it.
posted by zephyr_words at 9:06 AM on August 28, 2010
Ack, sorry for being a serial poster. I didn't preview so I missed your latest post.
I think you could make them comparable if you set up your own game-show type rules. You could say every 2 or 3lbs of fat loss for him = 1 lb of muscle gained for you.
Also, if you're new to weight lifting and you take it seriously you can have newbie gains where it's not unheard of to put on 20lbs of lean mass in around 3 months. That could help close the gap some.
posted by zephyr_words at 9:13 AM on August 28, 2010
I think you could make them comparable if you set up your own game-show type rules. You could say every 2 or 3lbs of fat loss for him = 1 lb of muscle gained for you.
Also, if you're new to weight lifting and you take it seriously you can have newbie gains where it's not unheard of to put on 20lbs of lean mass in around 3 months. That could help close the gap some.
posted by zephyr_words at 9:13 AM on August 28, 2010
By losing weight (via exercise) you also gain muscle mass. By building muscle mass (via resistance training and cardio) you lose weight.
This isn't true.
As to the original question, I think you're much better off setting a performance goal to race to. My suggestion is to see who can squat their bodyweight first. You'll gain muscle and he'll lose fat in pursuit of the goal, and you can both probably achieve it within a few months if you work hard.
posted by JohnMarston at 10:00 AM on August 28, 2010
This isn't true.
As to the original question, I think you're much better off setting a performance goal to race to. My suggestion is to see who can squat their bodyweight first. You'll gain muscle and he'll lose fat in pursuit of the goal, and you can both probably achieve it within a few months if you work hard.
posted by JohnMarston at 10:00 AM on August 28, 2010
requires mostly that one cuts down on calories
This is a myth. Losing weight is very easy, much easier than putting on muscle, and it has very little to do with calorie intake or exercise. The science is well documented. (Also, I'm a hobbyist powerlifter, so I speak from personal experience, too.) See this recent thread that I AskMeFi'd:
http://ask.metafilter.com/163391/Safe-sane-long-term-low-carb-diet
posted by zeek321 at 10:01 AM on August 28, 2010
This is a myth. Losing weight is very easy, much easier than putting on muscle, and it has very little to do with calorie intake or exercise. The science is well documented. (Also, I'm a hobbyist powerlifter, so I speak from personal experience, too.) See this recent thread that I AskMeFi'd:
http://ask.metafilter.com/163391/Safe-sane-long-term-low-carb-diet
posted by zeek321 at 10:01 AM on August 28, 2010
I would try a different strategy: set up a medium-term fitness challenge (like being fit enough to complete something challenging like the p90x workout). If you do something like the p90x workout for 90 days, I strongly suspect that you will gain muscle ... and he will lose a significant amount of fat.
posted by aroberge at 10:12 AM on August 28, 2010
posted by aroberge at 10:12 AM on August 28, 2010
Losing weight is not the same thing as losing fat. Losing weight can be accomplished by doing nothing at all. Losing fat exclusively requires a lot of work and planning. Ask any bodybuilder.
And it's a huge overstatement/oversimplification to say that cutting calories for weightloss is a myth. But that's not really what this question is about.
Also, I wouldn't recommend anything like P90x for gaining muscle -- that's not really what it's for.
posted by JohnMarston at 10:19 AM on August 28, 2010
And it's a huge overstatement/oversimplification to say that cutting calories for weightloss is a myth. But that's not really what this question is about.
Also, I wouldn't recommend anything like P90x for gaining muscle -- that's not really what it's for.
posted by JohnMarston at 10:19 AM on August 28, 2010
My suggestion is to see who can squat their bodyweight first. You'll gain muscle and he'll lose fat in pursuit of the goal, and you can both probably achieve it within a few months if you work hard.
This is exactly what I would suggest. There's a reason why weight lifters don't measure their day-to-day progress in pounds of muscle. You might look back in a year and and think "hey, I did gain 20 lbs. of muscle!", but making that your primary goal would probably be counterproductive. Likewise, fat loss is a lot easier to maintain when it happens naturally, secondary to a concrete positive goal.
I think you two should do a beginner's lifting program together, like Starting Strength or Stronglifts 5x5. Then see who can do a clean set of squats at their own bodyweight first (most of the other lifts don't really scale with bodyweight, but squats scale reasonably well -- squatting your own weight should be roughly equally hard for both of you to do).
posted by vorfeed at 11:15 AM on August 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is exactly what I would suggest. There's a reason why weight lifters don't measure their day-to-day progress in pounds of muscle. You might look back in a year and and think "hey, I did gain 20 lbs. of muscle!", but making that your primary goal would probably be counterproductive. Likewise, fat loss is a lot easier to maintain when it happens naturally, secondary to a concrete positive goal.
I think you two should do a beginner's lifting program together, like Starting Strength or Stronglifts 5x5. Then see who can do a clean set of squats at their own bodyweight first (most of the other lifts don't really scale with bodyweight, but squats scale reasonably well -- squatting your own weight should be roughly equally hard for both of you to do).
posted by vorfeed at 11:15 AM on August 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
What I want to know is: are these two processes (fat loss and muscle gain) remotely comparable?
No. The question is a non-starter. Yeah, you can make a challenge out of anything to motivate. But any two random people are just going to have too many differences that, without a series of measurments and diagnostics, it would be tough to set an actual "fair" challenge or starting point.
The thing is a goal is a goal. There are no counter-productive goals, that's ridiculous. It should be highly personal and you should be doing it for yourself, and beyond that for the most part nobody else really gives a shit about; how much you weigh, or how much you can lift, or how fast you can run. Caring about someone's health is one thing, but if this guy was 270 lbs of muscle you wouldn't have asked the question.
It's your metric, for yourself.
As to what type of goal, I wouldn't do squat poundage. It's not going to help him lose that much weight, and I would lay money down that you are a hell of lot closer to already squatting your body weight than he is.
If you do make it weight loss to weight gain, as someone already mentioned, I would make it 3 (or 2) to 1 respectively. Or you could do percentage of muscle to fat in each of you but you would need to get measured at the local university, or professionally, because calipers are probably going to be useless on your friend.
I think the toughest part is going to be to try to convince your friend.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:21 PM on August 28, 2010
No. The question is a non-starter. Yeah, you can make a challenge out of anything to motivate. But any two random people are just going to have too many differences that, without a series of measurments and diagnostics, it would be tough to set an actual "fair" challenge or starting point.
The thing is a goal is a goal. There are no counter-productive goals, that's ridiculous. It should be highly personal and you should be doing it for yourself, and beyond that for the most part nobody else really gives a shit about; how much you weigh, or how much you can lift, or how fast you can run. Caring about someone's health is one thing, but if this guy was 270 lbs of muscle you wouldn't have asked the question.
It's your metric, for yourself.
As to what type of goal, I wouldn't do squat poundage. It's not going to help him lose that much weight, and I would lay money down that you are a hell of lot closer to already squatting your body weight than he is.
If you do make it weight loss to weight gain, as someone already mentioned, I would make it 3 (or 2) to 1 respectively. Or you could do percentage of muscle to fat in each of you but you would need to get measured at the local university, or professionally, because calipers are probably going to be useless on your friend.
I think the toughest part is going to be to try to convince your friend.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:21 PM on August 28, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by malusmoriendumest at 5:32 AM on August 28, 2010