Your wife is how old? And you want me to do what?
June 19, 2010 6:14 AM Subscribe
What do I do about a guy who has offered to let me have sex with his underage "wife"?
I came into contact with this guy online- we were on a swingers site, so the focus was on him and his wife, and the possibility of us getting together.
Before long, though, he mentions some "scary details" that will probably send me packing. I assumed he was just baiting me, so I asked him what he was talking about. He told me his wife, A, is Latvian, and in order to marry her he also had to marry her sister, T. T is... 12 years old. He says he loves them both "100%".
Over the course of the conversation, he starts to steer things closer and closer to T. He tells me T is part of his and A's sex life, and that he has sex with T regularly (although "not before they got married"). Gradually, he mentions A less and less, and starts probing whether I'd be comfortable having T watch or having sex with T. He drops increasingly sexual hints about her. I got pretty freaked out and went to bed- him leaving telling me he was going to go have sex with T.
I'm pretty completely shocked at this point. I really wasn't anticipating dealing with a man offering to let me have sex with his 12-year-old "wife" online. As in, not at all. What do I do here? Is this something I should definitely report to the cops? (I have a feeling I know the answer.) Social services? Is it actually common or even heard-of for a marriage in Latvia to require also marrying the younger sister?
This whole thing smells, and I'm definitely not sure of what to do next. Please hope, mefi.
I came into contact with this guy online- we were on a swingers site, so the focus was on him and his wife, and the possibility of us getting together.
Before long, though, he mentions some "scary details" that will probably send me packing. I assumed he was just baiting me, so I asked him what he was talking about. He told me his wife, A, is Latvian, and in order to marry her he also had to marry her sister, T. T is... 12 years old. He says he loves them both "100%".
Over the course of the conversation, he starts to steer things closer and closer to T. He tells me T is part of his and A's sex life, and that he has sex with T regularly (although "not before they got married"). Gradually, he mentions A less and less, and starts probing whether I'd be comfortable having T watch or having sex with T. He drops increasingly sexual hints about her. I got pretty freaked out and went to bed- him leaving telling me he was going to go have sex with T.
I'm pretty completely shocked at this point. I really wasn't anticipating dealing with a man offering to let me have sex with his 12-year-old "wife" online. As in, not at all. What do I do here? Is this something I should definitely report to the cops? (I have a feeling I know the answer.) Social services? Is it actually common or even heard-of for a marriage in Latvia to require also marrying the younger sister?
This whole thing smells, and I'm definitely not sure of what to do next. Please hope, mefi.
My inner skeptic doubts T exists.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 6:27 AM on June 19, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 6:27 AM on June 19, 2010 [7 favorites]
This sounds like you're getting trolled by a cop or a "perverted justice" type freelancer. I can't find it now, but there was a long article about a guy corresponding with a woman who kept trying to get him to agree to include her underaged children. It was a sting operation.
posted by availablelight at 6:30 AM on June 19, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by availablelight at 6:30 AM on June 19, 2010 [6 favorites]
I have a feeling you are right about knowing the answer. It doesn't matter if he really is "married" to T or not. If she is twelve and he is offering to let you have sex with her then a pretty serious crime is going on. That he is having sex with her, even though married is still a crime in the USA and most other countries. It certainly is a crime in Latvia.
If you walk away from it and try to erase your communications, that does nothing to help T. It might ease you conscious to leave the situation and know you didn't participate, but then we still have a 12 year old girl who is stuck in a situation where she will likely be routinely sexually abused.
Finally, if it is the cops communicating with you trying to set you up, then reporting it to your local authorities would give you far more credit to not being a pedophile than ignoring it.
Either way, it sounds like you just need to stand up and do the right thing.
posted by quietfire at 6:33 AM on June 19, 2010 [13 favorites]
If you walk away from it and try to erase your communications, that does nothing to help T. It might ease you conscious to leave the situation and know you didn't participate, but then we still have a 12 year old girl who is stuck in a situation where she will likely be routinely sexually abused.
Finally, if it is the cops communicating with you trying to set you up, then reporting it to your local authorities would give you far more credit to not being a pedophile than ignoring it.
Either way, it sounds like you just need to stand up and do the right thing.
posted by quietfire at 6:33 AM on June 19, 2010 [13 favorites]
In the event that it's not a sting, call the police. If it is a sting, contacting the police will exonerate you. You're not doing anything wrong by coming into contact with this guy in the first place, so it's no problem to just turn over some of his emails to the cops, right?
posted by motsque at 6:35 AM on June 19, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by motsque at 6:35 AM on June 19, 2010 [7 favorites]
Yes, you should report this to the cops. Your choices here are mensch or accomplice; why is this a question?
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:35 AM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:35 AM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Strongest possibility: he is yanking your chain.
Other possibilities: he's actually got a 12-year-old victim at his house (his story is a lie, of course, but it's possible he has a stepdaughter or similar that he is abusing), or he's part of some sting operation.
I would call the police, myself, just in case there's a real live 12-year-old girl in danger, and to protect yourself by making your own intentions clear. They will know whether it's such a strong probability that he's yanking your chain that it's not worth whatever investigatory resources would be necessary to track him down.
You should also be aware that in 18 states, "any person" is a mandatory reporter of child abuse.
posted by palliser at 6:40 AM on June 19, 2010
Other possibilities: he's actually got a 12-year-old victim at his house (his story is a lie, of course, but it's possible he has a stepdaughter or similar that he is abusing), or he's part of some sting operation.
I would call the police, myself, just in case there's a real live 12-year-old girl in danger, and to protect yourself by making your own intentions clear. They will know whether it's such a strong probability that he's yanking your chain that it's not worth whatever investigatory resources would be necessary to track him down.
You should also be aware that in 18 states, "any person" is a mandatory reporter of child abuse.
posted by palliser at 6:40 AM on June 19, 2010
Uh, call the police?
First of all, there is obviously no reason why marrying someone from Latvia would require someone to also marry their 12 year old sister.
Anyway, my guess is that this is a sting type thing. How could someone so open about having sex with a 12 year old with random people on the internet get away with it for so long? So I really doubt this is real. If it seemed like it was real you should definitely contact the police.
posted by delmoi at 7:01 AM on June 19, 2010
First of all, there is obviously no reason why marrying someone from Latvia would require someone to also marry their 12 year old sister.
Anyway, my guess is that this is a sting type thing. How could someone so open about having sex with a 12 year old with random people on the internet get away with it for so long? So I really doubt this is real. If it seemed like it was real you should definitely contact the police.
posted by delmoi at 7:01 AM on June 19, 2010
Besides the fact that this is either someone winding you up or a police sting, no one has commented on the fact that bigamy is illegal in most places, thus meaning that no one would "have" to marry a second wife.
posted by proj at 7:06 AM on June 19, 2010
posted by proj at 7:06 AM on June 19, 2010
CALL THE COPS, SON
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:13 AM on June 19, 2010 [28 favorites]
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:13 AM on June 19, 2010 [28 favorites]
In the US, where I'm assuming you are, this is illegal on a number of levels.
First, assuming what this person has told you is true, it's bigamy. You cannot be married to more than one person at the same time.
Second, what he's describing would be statutory rape. It isn't illegal to have sex with a minor if you're married to them (but see above), provided the parents of the minor gave their permission. However, this person is suggesting that you, who are not this person's spouse, have sex with a minor. Regardless of the marital state of the other people, this would be illegal for you.
Third, this would probably count as conspiracy, as there would be an agreement between the two of you to have you do something illegal. Conspiracy charges are independent of their target crimes and can bring heavier penalties than the crimes themselves.
Sounds to me like you need to call the cops. It's a bit seedy, but admitting that you were looking for a little action when things got weird is a lot better than getting your door busted down. Both are embarrassing, but the former doesn't get your ass pounded by your HIV-positive cellmate.
You might consider calling a criminal defense attorney before you do call the cops.
posted by valkyryn at 7:13 AM on June 19, 2010
First, assuming what this person has told you is true, it's bigamy. You cannot be married to more than one person at the same time.
Second, what he's describing would be statutory rape. It isn't illegal to have sex with a minor if you're married to them (but see above), provided the parents of the minor gave their permission. However, this person is suggesting that you, who are not this person's spouse, have sex with a minor. Regardless of the marital state of the other people, this would be illegal for you.
Third, this would probably count as conspiracy, as there would be an agreement between the two of you to have you do something illegal. Conspiracy charges are independent of their target crimes and can bring heavier penalties than the crimes themselves.
Sounds to me like you need to call the cops. It's a bit seedy, but admitting that you were looking for a little action when things got weird is a lot better than getting your door busted down. Both are embarrassing, but the former doesn't get your ass pounded by your HIV-positive cellmate.
You might consider calling a criminal defense attorney before you do call the cops.
posted by valkyryn at 7:13 AM on June 19, 2010
Cop or more likely drunk pervert jerking off to the conversation. There is no "T", except in that sick fuck's fantasies. I wouldn't go back to that site for a while (as in "ever"). Personally, I'd backup important files, D-BAN my hard drive and re-install the OS just for peace of mind.
If you contact law enforcement, and they decide to pursue it, you'll need to give them enough information that they may very well charge you with a thought-crime. It's sad, but the justice system is so screwed up that people have their lives wrecked for innocuous activity and attempts to be good Samaritans. Just clean up, pretend it never happened, and don't engage people like that in conversations again.
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:13 AM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
If you contact law enforcement, and they decide to pursue it, you'll need to give them enough information that they may very well charge you with a thought-crime. It's sad, but the justice system is so screwed up that people have their lives wrecked for innocuous activity and attempts to be good Samaritans. Just clean up, pretend it never happened, and don't engage people like that in conversations again.
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:13 AM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Even though, yes, I would imagine this is either a sting or a troll. But still. Call the cops.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:13 AM on June 19, 2010
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:13 AM on June 19, 2010
Yes, call the police and be prepared to show them any logs you have of the conversation. As others have said, there are basically three options here:
1) This guy really is abusing a 12-year old; it seems unlikely, but you really, really need to call the police
2) Someone is trying to tempt people into saying "yes" as part of an entrapment/sting operation; whoever it is now has your conversation logged, so you should call the police, if only to make it clear that your first instinct was to report the abuse.
3) This is just some fantasist trying to draw people into his fetish: calling the police might waste a bit of their time but otherwise won't do any harm. (It might lead to some hassle for the fantasist, but presumably that's an occupational hazard)
So whatever the truth behind this is: yes, you need to call the police.
Is it actually common or even heard-of for a marriage in Latvia to require also marrying the younger sister?
I can't comment on this directly but, given that Latvia is part of the EU, there's absolutely no way that marriage to or sexual activity with a 12-year old is in any way legal there. Local customs aside, there's no way they'd have been allowed to join the EU if their laws permitted something like that.
A few google searches has turned up a few sites about latvian marriage customs and laws stretching back to the Russian Empire; none of them have mentioned marrying sisters. I suppose it's faintly plausible that he had to adopt her or something? Alternatively, it's faintly possible that the pair came as a sort of package deal from people traffickers who pitch themselves as a "mail order bride" service. Doesn't seem terribly likely, but I suppose it might be possible.
posted by metaBugs at 7:27 AM on June 19, 2010
1) This guy really is abusing a 12-year old; it seems unlikely, but you really, really need to call the police
2) Someone is trying to tempt people into saying "yes" as part of an entrapment/sting operation; whoever it is now has your conversation logged, so you should call the police, if only to make it clear that your first instinct was to report the abuse.
3) This is just some fantasist trying to draw people into his fetish: calling the police might waste a bit of their time but otherwise won't do any harm. (It might lead to some hassle for the fantasist, but presumably that's an occupational hazard)
So whatever the truth behind this is: yes, you need to call the police.
Is it actually common or even heard-of for a marriage in Latvia to require also marrying the younger sister?
I can't comment on this directly but, given that Latvia is part of the EU, there's absolutely no way that marriage to or sexual activity with a 12-year old is in any way legal there. Local customs aside, there's no way they'd have been allowed to join the EU if their laws permitted something like that.
A few google searches has turned up a few sites about latvian marriage customs and laws stretching back to the Russian Empire; none of them have mentioned marrying sisters. I suppose it's faintly plausible that he had to adopt her or something? Alternatively, it's faintly possible that the pair came as a sort of package deal from people traffickers who pitch themselves as a "mail order bride" service. Doesn't seem terribly likely, but I suppose it might be possible.
posted by metaBugs at 7:27 AM on June 19, 2010
I agree with the above posters that you should alert the police to the situation - however, depending on your geographic location, maybe you should bring all the facts to a lawyer first and let them be the one who presents the situation to the police? If it's a sting operation, it's important to protect yourself from the get-go, I would think.
posted by oh yeah! at 7:31 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by oh yeah! at 7:31 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Call the cops and call the admins of the swingers site, who certainly don't want this crap going down there.
posted by By The Grace of God at 7:32 AM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by By The Grace of God at 7:32 AM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Why call the cops?
This is the cops.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:50 AM on June 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
This is the cops.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:50 AM on June 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
Lawyer first, to find out how to contact the cops safely.
posted by decathecting at 7:51 AM on June 19, 2010 [10 favorites]
posted by decathecting at 7:51 AM on June 19, 2010 [10 favorites]
Let me just repeat what valkyryn said, "You might consider calling a criminal defense attorney before you do call the cops." and what decathecting said "Lawyer first, to find out how to contact the cops safely."
Because you never know beforehand if the cop you get on the phone is looking to be a "hero" (because if he is, it'll be at your expense).
posted by orthogonality at 8:03 AM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Because you never know beforehand if the cop you get on the phone is looking to be a "hero" (because if he is, it'll be at your expense).
posted by orthogonality at 8:03 AM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's a bit seedy, but admitting that you were looking for a little action when things got weird is a lot better than getting your door busted down.
If embarrassment is preventing you from calling the cops (which you should do), please consider that cops have seen a lot. You are not going to shock them. It will not be embarrassing. They will seriously not care about people chatting with others and jerking off to it or making plans for a threesome -- maybe they do that too, when at home. What they will care about is protecting a 12 year old girl.
posted by Houstonian at 8:26 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
If embarrassment is preventing you from calling the cops (which you should do), please consider that cops have seen a lot. You are not going to shock them. It will not be embarrassing. They will seriously not care about people chatting with others and jerking off to it or making plans for a threesome -- maybe they do that too, when at home. What they will care about is protecting a 12 year old girl.
posted by Houstonian at 8:26 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
At least report it anonymously. Going to the cops is for your own protection so if it is a sting they don't get the wrong idea, but you at least have to report something in case there is actual abuse going on.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:56 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:56 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you contact law enforcement, and they decide to pursue it, you'll need to give them enough information that they may very well charge you with a thought-crime.
I would worry more about this, not call the cops, and be prepared for the possibility of police attention if they try to get you for something. Electronic pornography, maybe. Some sort of wire fraud. Hell, in this day and age it wouldn't be impossible for the cops to try to prosecute you for possession of child pornography because of what someone else said to you. Remember that if the cops contact you, do not say anything to them beyond that you wish to hire an attorney.
They will seriously not care about people chatting with others and jerking off to it or making plans for a threesome
I would not bet my future on this. Even being investigated for or accused of attempting to secure sex with a 12-year-old or possession of child pornography could ruin your life and be a nice notch on the belt of some asshole cop who figures that you're already a disgusting pervert.
I'd also suggest something like dban and reinstall. If you're feeling paranoid, get a new hard drive and physically destroy the old one before disposing of the parts.
Going to the cops will not be for your protection. Going to the cops seems more likely to me to bring you further to the cops' attention. The idea that they're likely to have is that you're still a disgusting pervert pedophile out looking for 12-year-olds, but you got cold feet like the ratfucksonofabitch you are. Or maybe they'll think that 12 year olds are too old for you.
I would not say anything to the cops. I agree that it is a shame that continual abuse of police and prosecutorial authority means that you should not report a potential grave crime to the police, but it's the cops and DAs who made it that way.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:03 AM on June 19, 2010 [10 favorites]
I would worry more about this, not call the cops, and be prepared for the possibility of police attention if they try to get you for something. Electronic pornography, maybe. Some sort of wire fraud. Hell, in this day and age it wouldn't be impossible for the cops to try to prosecute you for possession of child pornography because of what someone else said to you. Remember that if the cops contact you, do not say anything to them beyond that you wish to hire an attorney.
They will seriously not care about people chatting with others and jerking off to it or making plans for a threesome
I would not bet my future on this. Even being investigated for or accused of attempting to secure sex with a 12-year-old or possession of child pornography could ruin your life and be a nice notch on the belt of some asshole cop who figures that you're already a disgusting pervert.
I'd also suggest something like dban and reinstall. If you're feeling paranoid, get a new hard drive and physically destroy the old one before disposing of the parts.
Going to the cops will not be for your protection. Going to the cops seems more likely to me to bring you further to the cops' attention. The idea that they're likely to have is that you're still a disgusting pervert pedophile out looking for 12-year-olds, but you got cold feet like the ratfucksonofabitch you are. Or maybe they'll think that 12 year olds are too old for you.
I would not say anything to the cops. I agree that it is a shame that continual abuse of police and prosecutorial authority means that you should not report a potential grave crime to the police, but it's the cops and DAs who made it that way.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:03 AM on June 19, 2010 [10 favorites]
This sounds so very much like the story availablelight mentioned--a guy meets a woman on a swingers site, she starts mentioning her daughter, makes it this whole big deal that he has to agree to have sex with the daughter if he wants sex with her. He ends up talking on-line with her about how much he wants to have sex with the daughter, though when interviewed later he said he was just going along with the fantasy to try to get the woman to meet him. "She" was a cop, trying to get him to incriminate himself as a pedophile.
In your shoes, I'd consult a lawyer, find how how exposed I might be already from the conversations I'd already had. and ask for advice on how to proceed. I try not to be paranoid, but this is an area where it seems to me that paranoia and possible over-reaction is justified. I wouldn't talk to the police without consulting a lawyer first, and leaving things as they are without talking to the police seems risky.
posted by not that girl at 9:36 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
In your shoes, I'd consult a lawyer, find how how exposed I might be already from the conversations I'd already had. and ask for advice on how to proceed. I try not to be paranoid, but this is an area where it seems to me that paranoia and possible over-reaction is justified. I wouldn't talk to the police without consulting a lawyer first, and leaving things as they are without talking to the police seems risky.
posted by not that girl at 9:36 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Cop or more likely drunk pervert jerking off to the conversation. There is no "T", except in that sick fuck's fantasies. I wouldn't go back to that site for a while (as in "ever"). Personally, I'd backup important files, D-BAN my hard drive and re-install the OS just for peace of mind.
If you contact law enforcement, and they decide to pursue it, you'll need to give them enough information that they may very well charge you with a thought-crime. It's sad, but the justice system is so screwed up that people have their lives wrecked for innocuous activity and attempts to be good Samaritans. Just clean up, pretend it never happened, and don't engage people like that in conversations again.
Probably true, but if it is, and they decide to go after him, erasing everything could be considered a crime. Destroying evidence.
At the same time, doing so *could* destroy evidence that could help this person. All one of those perverted Perverted Justice creeps has to do is pop in one line at the end that makes him look guilty, and he would have erased any evidence to the contrary.
Double-also: if there really is a 12 year old girl in danger, erasing the evidence could serve to inadvertently help her abuser remain. I wouldn't want to accidentally help continue this abuse just to keep myself out of some awkward questioning.
If you DO think you got a virus and/or need to do a hard drive upgrade, keep the old one just in case.
Anti-anti-cop rant: most police officers are decent people trying to do good. The problem is, the poster wouldn't know whether he is reporting to a good guy or a bad guy. I would definitely talk to a lawyer. They will:
1- advise to you whether you have a duty to report this
2- advise you as to whether you can do this anonymously or not
3- protect your rights along the way
You might also consider approaching the Attorney General or State's Attorney instead of the police.
posted by gjc at 10:04 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you contact law enforcement, and they decide to pursue it, you'll need to give them enough information that they may very well charge you with a thought-crime. It's sad, but the justice system is so screwed up that people have their lives wrecked for innocuous activity and attempts to be good Samaritans. Just clean up, pretend it never happened, and don't engage people like that in conversations again.
Probably true, but if it is, and they decide to go after him, erasing everything could be considered a crime. Destroying evidence.
At the same time, doing so *could* destroy evidence that could help this person. All one of those perverted Perverted Justice creeps has to do is pop in one line at the end that makes him look guilty, and he would have erased any evidence to the contrary.
Double-also: if there really is a 12 year old girl in danger, erasing the evidence could serve to inadvertently help her abuser remain. I wouldn't want to accidentally help continue this abuse just to keep myself out of some awkward questioning.
If you DO think you got a virus and/or need to do a hard drive upgrade, keep the old one just in case.
Anti-anti-cop rant: most police officers are decent people trying to do good. The problem is, the poster wouldn't know whether he is reporting to a good guy or a bad guy. I would definitely talk to a lawyer. They will:
1- advise to you whether you have a duty to report this
2- advise you as to whether you can do this anonymously or not
3- protect your rights along the way
You might also consider approaching the Attorney General or State's Attorney instead of the police.
posted by gjc at 10:04 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I would not say anything to the cops. I agree that it is a shame that continual abuse of police and prosecutorial authority means that you should not report a potential grave crime to the police, but it's the cops and DAs who made it that way.
Sadly, I find myself feeling that this is the most astute comment in this thread thus far. The issue is ultimately a weighing of comparative evils:
allowing a possible crime to go un-investigated/unpunished
vs
playing to the mess that the upright, the uptight, the morally PURE and thus corrupt (because nobody's pure) have made of pretty much any and all concerns even remotely tangential to children-having-sex.
Much as I hate that the former possibility might go un-pursued, I personally feel the greater evil is the latter.
posted by philip-random at 10:21 AM on June 19, 2010
Sadly, I find myself feeling that this is the most astute comment in this thread thus far. The issue is ultimately a weighing of comparative evils:
allowing a possible crime to go un-investigated/unpunished
vs
playing to the mess that the upright, the uptight, the morally PURE and thus corrupt (because nobody's pure) have made of pretty much any and all concerns even remotely tangential to children-having-sex.
Much as I hate that the former possibility might go un-pursued, I personally feel the greater evil is the latter.
posted by philip-random at 10:21 AM on June 19, 2010
Talk to the admins of the site and say "is this guy a known troll? If not please report him, you probably know better who to report him to and and I'm afraid that if I got to my local police nothing will happen".
posted by fshgrl at 10:45 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by fshgrl at 10:45 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
How about this: tell the guy he is one sick f*&^% and that if you even for a minute thought he actually had a 12 year old "wife" that he was peddling on the site that you'd run to the cops immediately and get his butt arrested. Then, contact the site admins and let them know what has been going on. Hopefully this guy is a cop or vigilante, and there isn't a 12 year old being held somewhere, but they need to know what is going on with their site. Let THEM contact the cops if they figure out it's necessary. They have a vested interest in keeping their site legal. Don't ever go to that site again.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:48 AM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:48 AM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Oh for crying out loud. Please don't listen to the paranoia above. Contact the police. Let them determine if there really is a 12 year-old in trouble, or if it is just a troll. If talking to an attorney first well help you feel better, then do that.
Do not take the advice to leave the police out of it. If there really is a 12 year-old being sexually assaulted here, by not reporting it you become worse than the dirtiest cop out there.
posted by C17H19NO3 at 11:38 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Do not take the advice to leave the police out of it. If there really is a 12 year-old being sexually assaulted here, by not reporting it you become worse than the dirtiest cop out there.
posted by C17H19NO3 at 11:38 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Consult with a lawyer and follow his or her advice.
posted by sallybrown at 11:47 AM on June 19, 2010
posted by sallybrown at 11:47 AM on June 19, 2010
it's not paranoia. read this whole article and then decide what you're going to do. i would probably go the "tell the site admins" and "tell a lawyer" route.
posted by nadawi at 12:24 PM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 12:24 PM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
There really are guys pimping out real 12 year old girls. Really. Not just on TV, but real little girls.
Report it.
Lawyer up if you have to, but report it.
posted by Ookseer at 1:07 PM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Report it.
Lawyer up if you have to, but report it.
posted by Ookseer at 1:07 PM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Go to the admins, then the police. You have nothing, nothing, to worry about.
And this is coming from a neurotic wreck.
posted by Quantum's Deadly Fist at 1:14 PM on June 19, 2010
And this is coming from a neurotic wreck.
posted by Quantum's Deadly Fist at 1:14 PM on June 19, 2010
Destroying everything on your end is a bad idea for two reasons. First, it was a two-way conversation, so there's a record of it somewhere else -- a record that could be excerpted or edited in some way, and you might have no way of contradicting. Second, destroying evidence because you suspect it might be evidence of a crime can get you in a lot of trouble on its own, even if there's no underlying crime.
How is that Vanity Fair article relevant at all? The subject of that article got in trouble for describing in "sickening" detail his desire to have sex with an 8-year-old and an 11-year-old, what he was going to do to them, questioning their physical capacity, etc. He'd also questioned other women online about having sex with their children. The OP didn't do that.
posted by palliser at 1:24 PM on June 19, 2010
How is that Vanity Fair article relevant at all? The subject of that article got in trouble for describing in "sickening" detail his desire to have sex with an 8-year-old and an 11-year-old, what he was going to do to them, questioning their physical capacity, etc. He'd also questioned other women online about having sex with their children. The OP didn't do that.
posted by palliser at 1:24 PM on June 19, 2010
How is that Vanity Fair article relevant at all? The subject of that article got in trouble for describing in "sickening" detail his desire to have sex with an 8-year-old and an 11-year-old, what he was going to do to them, questioning their physical capacity, etc. He'd also questioned other women online about having sex with their children. The OP didn't do that.
I mentioned it to illustrate why it sounded to me very much like what a police/preverted-justice-vigilante type might cook up, since a guy who's that insistant about trying to get a man on a swingers site to sleep with a 12 year old "bride" he "had to marry" from Latvia makes much less sense. I didn't bring it up to suggest the OP was culpable at this point. I agree that, either way, notifying police/lawyer/site admin sounds like the right next step. Depending on what the OP may have written back, lawyering up first might not be the worst step to take.
posted by availablelight at 1:39 PM on June 19, 2010
I mentioned it to illustrate why it sounded to me very much like what a police/preverted-justice-vigilante type might cook up, since a guy who's that insistant about trying to get a man on a swingers site to sleep with a 12 year old "bride" he "had to marry" from Latvia makes much less sense. I didn't bring it up to suggest the OP was culpable at this point. I agree that, either way, notifying police/lawyer/site admin sounds like the right next step. Depending on what the OP may have written back, lawyering up first might not be the worst step to take.
posted by availablelight at 1:39 PM on June 19, 2010
Lawyer.
Ethically you have to report it. But you also have to protect yourself, since unfortunately there are any number of ways this could go badly for you with the cops. A lawyer will help you figure out how to get this reported while keeping you as safe as possible.
posted by cloudburst at 4:00 PM on June 19, 2010
Ethically you have to report it. But you also have to protect yourself, since unfortunately there are any number of ways this could go badly for you with the cops. A lawyer will help you figure out how to get this reported while keeping you as safe as possible.
posted by cloudburst at 4:00 PM on June 19, 2010
It's a sad world when fear of being branded a sex offender prevents someone from reporting an instance of child prostitution. But that's the world we live in, and I totally get why someone would reformat their computer and walk away in response to an incident like this.
BUT, if I were in your situation, I would know that I could never in a million years live with myself if I didn't report this. The entire rest of my life I would be thinking about that little girl: 12 years old, apparently from another country, and being whored out over the internet.
I'd try to tell myself she was probably imaginary, probably the construct of either a troll or an overbearing FBI agent. I'd try to tell myself that, but late at night sometimes I'd do the math and wonder.
posted by ErikaB at 4:43 PM on June 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
BUT, if I were in your situation, I would know that I could never in a million years live with myself if I didn't report this. The entire rest of my life I would be thinking about that little girl: 12 years old, apparently from another country, and being whored out over the internet.
I'd try to tell myself she was probably imaginary, probably the construct of either a troll or an overbearing FBI agent. I'd try to tell myself that, but late at night sometimes I'd do the math and wonder.
It's been five years; she'd be 17 now. Did she ever get free of him? Did she run away? Is she living in a shelter? Or is she still there?I can't tell you what to do. But I can tell you that in the future, you'll remember what you did about this. It's up to you to decide what that remembrance will be.
It's been 10 years; she'd be 22. Any other kid would be graduating from college. Did she go to college?
It's been 20 years; she'd be 32. Does she have a husband and kids of her own? Or is she long since dead?
posted by ErikaB at 4:43 PM on June 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
Talk to the site admins to share your serious concerns about what you experienced on their site and ask them what they think you should do. I'd probably do that first before going to the police. If, say, there are multiple complaints about this guy trolling with a variety of bizarre/illegal scenarios, they can tell you, which might mean you don't need to involve the police in your sexual life at all. That's a plus.
Then, chat with a lawyer about what happened and what, if anything, you should do next. Calling the police first before talking to the site admins and a lawyer seems a little unwise.
posted by mediareport at 4:47 PM on June 19, 2010
Then, chat with a lawyer about what happened and what, if anything, you should do next. Calling the police first before talking to the site admins and a lawyer seems a little unwise.
posted by mediareport at 4:47 PM on June 19, 2010
Go to a lawyer to help you prepare an affifavit, then go to the police. The lawyer covers your arse against a police officer who's got a bee in their bonnet about swingers, or more interested in getting a conviction that getting the right person (neither is common, but you don't want to be the exception that proves the rule, you know?).
posted by rodgerd at 4:51 PM on June 19, 2010
posted by rodgerd at 4:51 PM on June 19, 2010
He told me his wife, A, is Latvian, and in order to marry her he also had to marry her sister, T.
This guy is exploiting your ignorance and prejudices about unfamiliar peoples in far away places.
Latvia has been one of the success stories of the Baltic region and indeed the entire former Eastern Bloc. While it has been hit hard by the economic crisis of the last couple of years, for the dozen or so years since the mid-90s it has consistently had one of the highest growth rates in the EU. It has a diversified economy, which could be criticized for being weak on manufacturing but very deservedly praised for excelling in services. Even (or perhaps especially) under communism, Latvians have always been well educated...there's certainly less functional illiteracy in Latvia than in the USA or in the UK.
Of course, pockets of poverty do exist in Latvia, as in many parts of Eastern Europe. I don't doubt that poor young Latvian girls end up elsewhere as prostitutes, willingly or not.
But a tradition of having to marry your bride's prepubescent sister???? Oh puhleeeez...you're lucky you didn't get filmed in an interview with Borat.
posted by randomstriker at 5:27 PM on June 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
This guy is exploiting your ignorance and prejudices about unfamiliar peoples in far away places.
Latvia has been one of the success stories of the Baltic region and indeed the entire former Eastern Bloc. While it has been hit hard by the economic crisis of the last couple of years, for the dozen or so years since the mid-90s it has consistently had one of the highest growth rates in the EU. It has a diversified economy, which could be criticized for being weak on manufacturing but very deservedly praised for excelling in services. Even (or perhaps especially) under communism, Latvians have always been well educated...there's certainly less functional illiteracy in Latvia than in the USA or in the UK.
Of course, pockets of poverty do exist in Latvia, as in many parts of Eastern Europe. I don't doubt that poor young Latvian girls end up elsewhere as prostitutes, willingly or not.
But a tradition of having to marry your bride's prepubescent sister???? Oh puhleeeez...you're lucky you didn't get filmed in an interview with Borat.
posted by randomstriker at 5:27 PM on June 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
If there are copies of the logs saved to your computer, save 3 copies of the logs on cd. One that you mail to yourself, one that you can give an attorney, and one that you can provide to the police, if required/court ordered.
If you have anything even VAGUELY illegal in your jurisdiction on your computer...back it up, store it on DVDs that you mail to yourself and don't open the envelope for a while. Pornography laws vary by state/county/etc. Gay porn is illegal in some areas, anything "barely legal" is probably a bad bet; pretty much if it's not as innocent as the playboy level of "naughty", I'd toss it off the system, were I you.
If you contact the police, it is real possible that they will want to "examine" your system; which means it may be months/years before you get it back. This may be avoided by:
Call your state bar and ask for a referral to a local defense lawyer. Referrals from the bar often convey a significant rate reduction for a consultation with an attorney.
Ask the attorney if you should go to the police.
My opinion? This is a sting operation. If there is a way for you to contact the admins for that site, you might want to drop them a line and tell them that you were solicited by this user to perform illegal acts with a minor at time (aprox Y) and (Date X). If the chat happened on their servers, they can get the logs and read them for themselves. Do this via email, so there is a record of you doing it.
Were it me; I would alert the admins, and then I would avoid the site for a while. I'd probably precautionarily purge my system. I would ask my attorney for advice. I would then follow that advice.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:06 PM on June 19, 2010
If you have anything even VAGUELY illegal in your jurisdiction on your computer...back it up, store it on DVDs that you mail to yourself and don't open the envelope for a while. Pornography laws vary by state/county/etc. Gay porn is illegal in some areas, anything "barely legal" is probably a bad bet; pretty much if it's not as innocent as the playboy level of "naughty", I'd toss it off the system, were I you.
If you contact the police, it is real possible that they will want to "examine" your system; which means it may be months/years before you get it back. This may be avoided by:
Call your state bar and ask for a referral to a local defense lawyer. Referrals from the bar often convey a significant rate reduction for a consultation with an attorney.
Ask the attorney if you should go to the police.
My opinion? This is a sting operation. If there is a way for you to contact the admins for that site, you might want to drop them a line and tell them that you were solicited by this user to perform illegal acts with a minor at time (aprox Y) and (Date X). If the chat happened on their servers, they can get the logs and read them for themselves. Do this via email, so there is a record of you doing it.
Were it me; I would alert the admins, and then I would avoid the site for a while. I'd probably precautionarily purge my system. I would ask my attorney for advice. I would then follow that advice.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:06 PM on June 19, 2010
I guess you have to ask yourself if you are the kind of person who can just walk away from a situation where a girl is being abused and do nothing to help her.
All of the speculation about a sting is just that - speculation. You should proceed with the information you have and report it to the police. It is what a reasonable person would do. In fact, I would argue that if it were a sting, not reporting would draw more scrutiny to you. You were offered sex with a 12 year old girl and you did not accept, but you did not report it either. Why is that? Do you think it is ok to have sex with 12 yoa's? If you remain on the site, and it is a sting, you may receive further offers.
Some very unfortunate answers here. Not Ask at its best.
posted by mlis at 8:43 PM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
All of the speculation about a sting is just that - speculation. You should proceed with the information you have and report it to the police. It is what a reasonable person would do. In fact, I would argue that if it were a sting, not reporting would draw more scrutiny to you. You were offered sex with a 12 year old girl and you did not accept, but you did not report it either. Why is that? Do you think it is ok to have sex with 12 yoa's? If you remain on the site, and it is a sting, you may receive further offers.
Some very unfortunate answers here. Not Ask at its best.
posted by mlis at 8:43 PM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Latvia is a historically Christian country. Polygamy is not allowed in any Christian denomination other than the break-away unorthodox Mormons. There is no possibility that there is any Latvian tradition of marrying two sisters to the same man.
So that part is clearly a lie.
As for the rest -- you don't know if there is a real girl or not. You should report the situation to the site admins and to the police -- the police will know how to proceed.
If you feel that your local police might not be up to this kind of situation, you could contact a specialized force -- I think the Toronto police may have a special task force that works on international child pornography cases.
posted by jb at 9:41 PM on June 19, 2010
So that part is clearly a lie.
As for the rest -- you don't know if there is a real girl or not. You should report the situation to the site admins and to the police -- the police will know how to proceed.
If you feel that your local police might not be up to this kind of situation, you could contact a specialized force -- I think the Toronto police may have a special task force that works on international child pornography cases.
posted by jb at 9:41 PM on June 19, 2010
I read the same Vanity Fair article at the doctor's and my first thought too was that this was a sting operation. So you should contact the police on that front. But also, you *don't* know if this is a real girl or not - the 'bride' story sounds fishy, but no more fishy than stories that hook young women and children into being trafficked. Go to the police.
posted by mippy at 12:49 PM on June 20, 2010
posted by mippy at 12:49 PM on June 20, 2010
You can also report this type of activity to the FBI via the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's CyberTipLine: here.
posted by LightMayo at 6:18 PM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by LightMayo at 6:18 PM on June 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by HuronBob at 6:18 AM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]