My sister's boyfriend was holding hands with someone else, what now?
May 19, 2010 8:51 AM Subscribe
Ran into my sister's boyfriend holding hands with another woman. She's trying to figure out what to do now. Advice on setting new limits and ground rules?
My sister has been dating this guy for the past three years. He's nice, we all like him a lot. She's been sort of unlucky in love historically, dated some weird losers [by her own admission] and been cheated on in the past. We've got weird parents [one drunk, one enabling narcissist, divorced for 30 years] so aren't real great on determining what normal is. She's been in the process of making plans to buy a house with this guy, got a pre-approved mortgage, been looking at places, all the rest. They've been talking about having kids.
I ran into him quite by accident on the street this past weekend walking down the street with another woman, holding hands with her. He dropped her hand as soon as he saw me and there was some flustered "Oh HI, I didn't know you were in town!" talk. He introduced me to the woman and then we went our separate ways. I called my sister the next day to tell her.
In the intervening time, he sort of came clean with my sister, at least saying that he was out with this other woman, but not real forthcoming on details until she was like "I heard you two were holding hands" which opened the floodgates of apology and "You're the only one I want to be with" talk. Apparently the woman is a friend (my sister knows who she is but hasn't met her), going through a bad divorce, they're not sleeping together, etc. My sister would like to work this out with him if possible. So, now the trust rebuilding starts.
They're both in their thirties, she's a bit older than he is. She's described him as a bit of a Martian about social norms and a little protective of his private life. He's got a very small social circle and doesn't regularly hang out with anyone but her and his weekend baseball team. She's always been pretty hands off about his personal life; they hang out a few times a week, live a few towns apart, usually but not always spend weekends together. It works for both of them and it's been a happy relationship.
Now, however, my sister is concerned. She'd like to have a talk where they set some new ground rules where they can rebuild some of the trust she feels has been wrecked. Some of her friends have said "make him give you his phone/email passwords" and she thinks that's a bit over the top, but she's unclear on where the line between good boundaries and controlling is, and how much privacy is normal and how much is squirrely. In the past he's gotten phone calls he doesn't pick up when she's there, and has a screen saver password on his home PC both of which seem normal and yet troubling if she feels he's hiding something. They do not want an open relationship, please don't go there. She thinks he's unlikely to come up with ideas on his own, and wants to have some to suggest. She doesn't want to be a "spend every night together" couple and would like to maintain their individual lives but not feel that she has to worry when they're not together. They've had the "Just so we're on the same page, this is what is okay/not okay in our relationship" discussion, but it's unclear just how much of this is her responsibility to outline every "this is not okay" case.
So, the general question here is: what would you suggest would be good steps towards working this out: counseling? some sort of checking-in routine? open-book email/chat access? Have you or your friends dealt with this? What worked for you?
My suggestion was to take the house-buying off the table for now while they work this out, but I'm not a good arbiter of normal relationship behavior generally so I said I'd ask here.
My sister has been dating this guy for the past three years. He's nice, we all like him a lot. She's been sort of unlucky in love historically, dated some weird losers [by her own admission] and been cheated on in the past. We've got weird parents [one drunk, one enabling narcissist, divorced for 30 years] so aren't real great on determining what normal is. She's been in the process of making plans to buy a house with this guy, got a pre-approved mortgage, been looking at places, all the rest. They've been talking about having kids.
I ran into him quite by accident on the street this past weekend walking down the street with another woman, holding hands with her. He dropped her hand as soon as he saw me and there was some flustered "Oh HI, I didn't know you were in town!" talk. He introduced me to the woman and then we went our separate ways. I called my sister the next day to tell her.
In the intervening time, he sort of came clean with my sister, at least saying that he was out with this other woman, but not real forthcoming on details until she was like "I heard you two were holding hands" which opened the floodgates of apology and "You're the only one I want to be with" talk. Apparently the woman is a friend (my sister knows who she is but hasn't met her), going through a bad divorce, they're not sleeping together, etc. My sister would like to work this out with him if possible. So, now the trust rebuilding starts.
They're both in their thirties, she's a bit older than he is. She's described him as a bit of a Martian about social norms and a little protective of his private life. He's got a very small social circle and doesn't regularly hang out with anyone but her and his weekend baseball team. She's always been pretty hands off about his personal life; they hang out a few times a week, live a few towns apart, usually but not always spend weekends together. It works for both of them and it's been a happy relationship.
Now, however, my sister is concerned. She'd like to have a talk where they set some new ground rules where they can rebuild some of the trust she feels has been wrecked. Some of her friends have said "make him give you his phone/email passwords" and she thinks that's a bit over the top, but she's unclear on where the line between good boundaries and controlling is, and how much privacy is normal and how much is squirrely. In the past he's gotten phone calls he doesn't pick up when she's there, and has a screen saver password on his home PC both of which seem normal and yet troubling if she feels he's hiding something. They do not want an open relationship, please don't go there. She thinks he's unlikely to come up with ideas on his own, and wants to have some to suggest. She doesn't want to be a "spend every night together" couple and would like to maintain their individual lives but not feel that she has to worry when they're not together. They've had the "Just so we're on the same page, this is what is okay/not okay in our relationship" discussion, but it's unclear just how much of this is her responsibility to outline every "this is not okay" case.
So, the general question here is: what would you suggest would be good steps towards working this out: counseling? some sort of checking-in routine? open-book email/chat access? Have you or your friends dealt with this? What worked for you?
My suggestion was to take the house-buying off the table for now while they work this out, but I'm not a good arbiter of normal relationship behavior generally so I said I'd ask here.
My gut instinct is that he's cheating on her. At the very least, take the house-buying off the table and see how this pans out. She's the only one who knows how much openness will earn and keep her trust. I have pretty big trust issues, so I know that for me, open-book email/chat access would probably be the only thing that could quell my suspicions. That'll probably be different for your sister, but that's up to her to figure out.
posted by booknerd at 8:58 AM on May 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by booknerd at 8:58 AM on May 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
Honestly, I don't see the problem. I'm in a committed relationship, but I still hug, kiss (not that kind of kiss), and hold hands with my (female) friends. Some people are very kinesthetic, and holding hands is a way they show affection for friends. Especially friends who are going through bad divorces...
He needs to trust her, and she needs to trust him, if the relationship is ever going to work. When he says they're not sleeping together, they're probably not. As far as passwords, that's absurd. Many married couples don't even know each others passwords or PINs.
posted by fvox13 at 8:59 AM on May 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
He needs to trust her, and she needs to trust him, if the relationship is ever going to work. When he says they're not sleeping together, they're probably not. As far as passwords, that's absurd. Many married couples don't even know each others passwords or PINs.
posted by fvox13 at 8:59 AM on May 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
counseling?
I know it's the go-to answer here, but if they're both a little socially odd and both have some baggage that's interfering with progress in the relationship, then sitting down with an objective third party who is able to recognize, explain, and offer guidance about dysfunctional and healthy relationships alike could be extremely helpful if they're open to it.
posted by Meg_Murry at 9:00 AM on May 19, 2010
I know it's the go-to answer here, but if they're both a little socially odd and both have some baggage that's interfering with progress in the relationship, then sitting down with an objective third party who is able to recognize, explain, and offer guidance about dysfunctional and healthy relationships alike could be extremely helpful if they're open to it.
posted by Meg_Murry at 9:00 AM on May 19, 2010
a little protective of his private life.
This red flag is big and shiny.
I'm sorry for your sister, but this has all the markings of wasted time.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 9:00 AM on May 19, 2010 [39 favorites]
This red flag is big and shiny.
I'm sorry for your sister, but this has all the markings of wasted time.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 9:00 AM on May 19, 2010 [39 favorites]
Please, dear lord, let one of the ground rules be not to buy a house with this man unless/until they get married and have better legal protection for that sort of thing. I know more than one couple who bought property together and then broke up. It was a disaster in each case--ruined credit, much heartbreak, etc.
Trust is probably one of the most critical factors in good relationships. The negotiation of what is and what is not ok is really bizarre and he will always have some kind of out if she doesn't think of every case if she goes down that road. I think the onus is on him to help her feel at ease with his trustworthiness, but ultimately if she doesn't trust him she should probably move on to a relationship with someone she can actually trust.
posted by Kimberly at 9:07 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Trust is probably one of the most critical factors in good relationships. The negotiation of what is and what is not ok is really bizarre and he will always have some kind of out if she doesn't think of every case if she goes down that road. I think the onus is on him to help her feel at ease with his trustworthiness, but ultimately if she doesn't trust him she should probably move on to a relationship with someone she can actually trust.
posted by Kimberly at 9:07 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
fvox13, I'm like you. I'm married and still hug, kiss and hold hands with my (male) friends. The difference here is that I do it in front of my husband, our friends and their partners. It is permissible because it is out in the open. The sudden dropping of the hand and the odd greeting speak to more going on that just friends who are touchy in the way that you and I seem to be.
Not only should the house be off the table, so should having children until this is all sorted out one way or the other.
posted by onhazier at 9:07 AM on May 19, 2010 [21 favorites]
Not only should the house be off the table, so should having children until this is all sorted out one way or the other.
posted by onhazier at 9:07 AM on May 19, 2010 [21 favorites]
For me, and I think most other people raised in the U.S., I don't hold hands with friends. Holding hands is something I do only when I'm dating someone. (Maybe others will chime in and say, "Oh, it's no big deal, I hold hands with my friends all the time", but if it were no big deal, why did he feel the need to let go suddenly? People generally don't feel the need to halt what they're doing if it's totally innocuous.)
Maybe they are sleeping together, or maybe they're not, but that's almost beside the point. He's being dishonest and he betrayed her trust.
Why be with someone who won't share their whole life with you?
posted by too bad you're not me at 9:08 AM on May 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
Maybe they are sleeping together, or maybe they're not, but that's almost beside the point. He's being dishonest and he betrayed her trust.
Why be with someone who won't share their whole life with you?
posted by too bad you're not me at 9:08 AM on May 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
I'm with fvox13 on this one..... I think you and your sis might be overreacting a bit (though understandable, due to past events).
I often hold hands with my female friends (I'm male), and don't really see the big deal. Some of them are married, some dating, some single.
I understand your sister's reluctance to trust, based on her past experiences, but she needs to trust him if the relationship's going to work. If she's unable to get over that hurdle, she should call off the relationship now before it becomes more complicated, or seek couples counseling..
posted by brand-gnu at 9:12 AM on May 19, 2010
I often hold hands with my female friends (I'm male), and don't really see the big deal. Some of them are married, some dating, some single.
I understand your sister's reluctance to trust, based on her past experiences, but she needs to trust him if the relationship's going to work. If she's unable to get over that hurdle, she should call off the relationship now before it becomes more complicated, or seek couples counseling..
posted by brand-gnu at 9:12 AM on May 19, 2010
Here's my question in all this: if this woman is such a dear friend, dear enough that she's looking to BF to console her, why hasn't GF met her? Sure, there are plenty of male/female hetero relationships that are purely platonic. But out of respect for a sig other's feelings, it's helpful to introduce that dear friend to the sig other so it's very clear there's nothing untoward going on. That's how it's worked in my world anyway. And the times when I didn't meet that "dear friend?" Well, yeah, that's when I was being cheated on. Just sayin'.
So maybe sister should ask to meet Dear Friend and see if any fireworks ensue. Maybe it's platonic social dorkiness, maybe not.
We all need our privacy, but that personal privacy needs to be balanced with consideration for our sig other's feelings.
posted by December at 9:17 AM on May 19, 2010 [14 favorites]
So maybe sister should ask to meet Dear Friend and see if any fireworks ensue. Maybe it's platonic social dorkiness, maybe not.
We all need our privacy, but that personal privacy needs to be balanced with consideration for our sig other's feelings.
posted by December at 9:17 AM on May 19, 2010 [14 favorites]
This is one of those questions which make me hear a bell tolling while I read them. This guy is simply not trustworthy (he didn't come clean about the handholding until your sister told him she knew about that, which makes me think there's more he's hiding) and your sister needs to write him off and find somebody who is really committed to her. It's a shame but there's no point in throwing more time into this hole.
posted by orange swan at 9:18 AM on May 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 9:18 AM on May 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
There's a disconnect for me between him being socially awkward and yet close enough to hold hands with a woman he is not romantically involved/interested in. I know it's not impossible, as several people have pointed out, but it seems far less innocent because he dropped her hand when he saw you.
Sharing passwords and phone access isn't the answer. It's not difficult to setup separate accounts and that might actually even feed into the sort of thrilling/I'm-getting-away-with-it that some people feel when they cheat. Also, despite this transgression, I think he does have a right to some privacy.
They should take home-buying off the table and re-evaluate the relationship. If they decide to stay together, the only way she can learn to trust him is to give him the opportunity to earn the trust back. There is nothing wrong with trying, if they are both really on board, and counseling might help.
But ending the relationship should be an option for both of them, as well. Trust is not created by agreeing to some by-the-letter contract of what level of physical affection is okay between friends. They could come up with a million rules, and he could agree to all of them, and she still might find that she just doesn't trust him anymore. Your sister deserves to be with someone she trusts.
posted by juliplease at 9:19 AM on May 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
Sharing passwords and phone access isn't the answer. It's not difficult to setup separate accounts and that might actually even feed into the sort of thrilling/I'm-getting-away-with-it that some people feel when they cheat. Also, despite this transgression, I think he does have a right to some privacy.
They should take home-buying off the table and re-evaluate the relationship. If they decide to stay together, the only way she can learn to trust him is to give him the opportunity to earn the trust back. There is nothing wrong with trying, if they are both really on board, and counseling might help.
But ending the relationship should be an option for both of them, as well. Trust is not created by agreeing to some by-the-letter contract of what level of physical affection is okay between friends. They could come up with a million rules, and he could agree to all of them, and she still might find that she just doesn't trust him anymore. Your sister deserves to be with someone she trusts.
posted by juliplease at 9:19 AM on May 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
I don't think the issue is whether or not it's ok to hold hand with your friends. Like onhazier said, it's more about his reactions/attitude. If he started apologizing as soon as the girlfriend said "I heard you two were holding hands" I suspect it is because he felt he was doing something questionable within the terms of his relationship with the girlfriend.
I definitely agree about taking house-buying off the table for the moment.
And sure, she needs to trust him for this relationship to work. But she needs to trust him for legitimate reasons, i.e. they are on the same page about what is ok and what isn't, are both committed to their relationship, etc.
posted by Ginkgo at 9:24 AM on May 19, 2010
I definitely agree about taking house-buying off the table for the moment.
And sure, she needs to trust him for this relationship to work. But she needs to trust him for legitimate reasons, i.e. they are on the same page about what is ok and what isn't, are both committed to their relationship, etc.
posted by Ginkgo at 9:24 AM on May 19, 2010
He dropped her hand as soon as he saw me and there was some flustered "Oh HI, I didn't know you were in town!" talk.
not real forthcoming on details until she was like "I heard you two were holding hands"
he's gotten phone calls he doesn't pick up when she's there
All signs point to him cheating, and to him having been doing so for a while. I'm sorry for your sister, but to me this is a clear-cut DTMFA.
posted by MexicanYenta at 9:30 AM on May 19, 2010 [12 favorites]
not real forthcoming on details until she was like "I heard you two were holding hands"
he's gotten phone calls he doesn't pick up when she's there
All signs point to him cheating, and to him having been doing so for a while. I'm sorry for your sister, but to me this is a clear-cut DTMFA.
posted by MexicanYenta at 9:30 AM on May 19, 2010 [12 favorites]
I also don't really understand how these things line up: on the one side, she wants a monogamous relationship with someone she is buying a house with... on the other side, she doesn't want to spend every night with him. Where exactly are they staying on the nights they're not spending the night together, once they, you know, live in a house they own together?
posted by brainmouse at 9:32 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by brainmouse at 9:32 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've never heard of anyone holding hands with friends of the opposite sex. He was cheating.
posted by The Lamplighter at 9:38 AM on May 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by The Lamplighter at 9:38 AM on May 19, 2010 [5 favorites]
They're both in their thirties, she's a bit older than he is. She's described him as a bit of a Martian about social norms and a little protective of his private life. He's got a very small social circle and doesn't regularly hang out with anyone but her and his weekend baseball team. She's always been pretty hands off about his personal life; they hang out a few times a week, live a few towns apart, usually but not always spend weekends together. It works for both of them and it's been a happy relationship.
If they've been dating for three years and are talking about buying a house together and having babies, he should be a bit more forthcoming about his "private" life. In fact, your sister should be a major part of his private life. Most guys, once you get close to them, talk all about their buddies and their weekend activities ("Remember Joe, the guy I told you about who can belch the alphabet? He bought this old Dodge pick-up truck somewhere for $300. It's actually pretty sweet, we got it running on Sunday....") with little prompting. I'm generalizing here, but it seems like anyone who is that private about his personal life has something to hide.
posted by Oriole Adams at 9:44 AM on May 19, 2010 [6 favorites]
If they've been dating for three years and are talking about buying a house together and having babies, he should be a bit more forthcoming about his "private" life. In fact, your sister should be a major part of his private life. Most guys, once you get close to them, talk all about their buddies and their weekend activities ("Remember Joe, the guy I told you about who can belch the alphabet? He bought this old Dodge pick-up truck somewhere for $300. It's actually pretty sweet, we got it running on Sunday....") with little prompting. I'm generalizing here, but it seems like anyone who is that private about his personal life has something to hide.
posted by Oriole Adams at 9:44 AM on May 19, 2010 [6 favorites]
Unless he was holding her hand as she was sobbing to console her about something, I cry fowl. I also don't buy for one second that he has totally come clean and there is no way to start over if he isn't even being honest now. I don't know about email passwords and all that, but what I would want is to talk to this woman. I bet you she doesn't even know who your sister is or thinks your sister is also "just a friend."
From how mildly your sister is reacting I think she is in denial or a bit of a doormat. This is seriously not ok. Her relationship doesn't need new "ground rules" it needs a complete overhaul where he is either grovelling for forgiveness and honestly tries to change or she moves on. Preferably she just moves on.
posted by whoaali at 9:50 AM on May 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
From how mildly your sister is reacting I think she is in denial or a bit of a doormat. This is seriously not ok. Her relationship doesn't need new "ground rules" it needs a complete overhaul where he is either grovelling for forgiveness and honestly tries to change or she moves on. Preferably she just moves on.
posted by whoaali at 9:50 AM on May 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
First thing-they should NOT buy a house together.
Second, couples counselling.
Third, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. Let's see how hard he wants to work at being trustworthy.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 9:52 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Second, couples counselling.
Third, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. Let's see how hard he wants to work at being trustworthy.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 9:52 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Oh, and this isn't about setting new boundaries. This is about figuring out whether or not he is relationship material period. Because he knows good and well he broke relationship boundaries.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 9:53 AM on May 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 9:53 AM on May 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
They are going to have "rules"? My gut instinct is that your sister will never feel secure in this relationship. There are plenty of wonderful men out there, but he doesn't sound like he's the one for her. She is in her mid thirties and wants kids? There's not much time to waste. Run! Find someone better instead of investing more precious time in the current relationship. Thank goodness you saw him and told her about it.
posted by Knowyournuts at 9:54 AM on May 19, 2010
posted by Knowyournuts at 9:54 AM on May 19, 2010
Apparently the woman is a friend (my sister knows who she is but hasn't met her), going through a bad divorce, they're not sleeping together, etc.
This is possible. I'm male and have a very close female friend (and I'm kind of a Martian). She went through a divorce a few years ago, and we spent a lot of time together. The relationship is not sexual.
The problem is that your sister doesn't know the woman. She needs to if trust is going to happen. If she spends some time with the two of them together, it should fairly obvious what the nature of the relationship is. I realize that because they live in different towns the logistics of meeting each other's friends might be difficult, and he might have been worried that she'd be jealous - understandable, but that doesn't work, and is actually counterproductive.
Your sister needs to get to know his friends. It doesn't mean she has to like all of them, and it doesn't mean she needs to read his e-mails, but she does need to get to know the people he's close to, and, even though he's a private person (I am too) he needs to let her do that.
posted by nangar at 10:15 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is possible. I'm male and have a very close female friend (and I'm kind of a Martian). She went through a divorce a few years ago, and we spent a lot of time together. The relationship is not sexual.
The problem is that your sister doesn't know the woman. She needs to if trust is going to happen. If she spends some time with the two of them together, it should fairly obvious what the nature of the relationship is. I realize that because they live in different towns the logistics of meeting each other's friends might be difficult, and he might have been worried that she'd be jealous - understandable, but that doesn't work, and is actually counterproductive.
Your sister needs to get to know his friends. It doesn't mean she has to like all of them, and it doesn't mean she needs to read his e-mails, but she does need to get to know the people he's close to, and, even though he's a private person (I am too) he needs to let her do that.
posted by nangar at 10:15 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
This all sounds bizarre to me. I like to remain independent in relationships as well, but I don't have a completely separate relationship-private-life and other-private-life. Nor would I want to buy a house with someone that I don't want to spend most days and nights with. It's like you are describing two different couples. I think your sister needs to decide what she wants - if it's an occasional boyfriend with a secret life, fine. But DO NOT let her purchase a house with this man. (Oh, and he's definitely cheating.)
posted by jrichards at 10:17 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by jrichards at 10:17 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Holding hands with friends while strolling around? Highly suspicious.
I'm confused by the beginning and end of your post. Your sister wants to have kids with this guy, but not see each other every night? Have separate lives?
Is this a casual or serious relationship? Don't entertain the notion of a house and kids either way. Your sister should either live with this guy for a while or accept that in a casual relationship it's inevitable her boyfriend will meet other women and sparks may fly.
posted by xammerboy at 10:17 AM on May 19, 2010
I'm confused by the beginning and end of your post. Your sister wants to have kids with this guy, but not see each other every night? Have separate lives?
Is this a casual or serious relationship? Don't entertain the notion of a house and kids either way. Your sister should either live with this guy for a while or accept that in a casual relationship it's inevitable her boyfriend will meet other women and sparks may fly.
posted by xammerboy at 10:17 AM on May 19, 2010
Rules?!? Trust doesn't work that way. Either she CAN or she CAN'T trust him. At this point, it sounds like she's starting from square one as far as building trust in her relationship goes, except she already knows she has reason to doubt him. Since that's the case, why not start from square one with a new man in a new relationship. A new relationship with, y'know' the sort of man who won't be out holding hands with another woman.
I'm really sorry, but I highly doubt they weren't sleeping together. If it's true that they weren't, it was only a matter of time (or of him getting caught).
Your sister deserves better, but first she has to choose a better man.
posted by 2oh1 at 10:18 AM on May 19, 2010
I'm really sorry, but I highly doubt they weren't sleeping together. If it's true that they weren't, it was only a matter of time (or of him getting caught).
Your sister deserves better, but first she has to choose a better man.
posted by 2oh1 at 10:18 AM on May 19, 2010
This thread is insane. This comment in particular reads like a parody:
I just want to share my impression that I don't think you've seen evidence of a relationship-killer, like everyone else seems to think you have. This is not necessarily the behavior of a rotten cad. Please don't torpedo your sister's love at the urging of these disembodied Internet howls.
posted by grobstein at 10:18 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've never heard of anyone holding hands with friends of the opposite sex. He was cheating.Perhaps it is a parody. That it fits in so well with the rest of the comments is disturbing.
I just want to share my impression that I don't think you've seen evidence of a relationship-killer, like everyone else seems to think you have. This is not necessarily the behavior of a rotten cad. Please don't torpedo your sister's love at the urging of these disembodied Internet howls.
posted by grobstein at 10:18 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
She should ask if she can call the other woman. If this is a purely Platonic relationship, the reaction should be, "Yeah, sure, no problem." If my wife asked to talk to any of my women friends or colleagues, that's what my reaction would be.
If the reaction is negative, then it's not a purely Platonic relationship.
It's not even necessary to actually call the other woman, but if she does, the same goes. If it's Platonic, the other woman isn't going to have a problem with it, and if she doesn't have a problem, it's not Platonic.
I think it's 95% likely the guy's cheating, but this simple test can rule out the 5%.
posted by musofire at 10:23 AM on May 19, 2010
If the reaction is negative, then it's not a purely Platonic relationship.
It's not even necessary to actually call the other woman, but if she does, the same goes. If it's Platonic, the other woman isn't going to have a problem with it, and if she doesn't have a problem, it's not Platonic.
I think it's 95% likely the guy's cheating, but this simple test can rule out the 5%.
posted by musofire at 10:23 AM on May 19, 2010
For me at least, the hand-holding is one thing that could go one way or another, though the immediate uneasiness and unclasping of hands is iffy.
It’s more this:
saying that he was out with this other woman, but not real forthcoming on details until she was like "I heard you two were holding hands" which opened the floodgates of apology and "You're the only one I want to be with" talk.
She's described him as a bit of a Martian about social norms and a little protective of his private life.
She's always been pretty hands off about his personal life; they hang out a few times a week, live a few towns apart, usually but not always spend weekends together
In the past he's gotten phone calls he doesn't pick up when she's there
and has a screen saver password on his home PC
That creates a clearer picture. Any individual piece here – okay. All together? Not so much.
As for this -- He's got a very small social circle and doesn't regularly hang out with anyone but her and his weekend baseball team, that seems kind of odd, given how infrequently they see each other for people who are about to move in together.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 10:26 AM on May 19, 2010
It’s more this:
saying that he was out with this other woman, but not real forthcoming on details until she was like "I heard you two were holding hands" which opened the floodgates of apology and "You're the only one I want to be with" talk.
She's described him as a bit of a Martian about social norms and a little protective of his private life.
She's always been pretty hands off about his personal life; they hang out a few times a week, live a few towns apart, usually but not always spend weekends together
In the past he's gotten phone calls he doesn't pick up when she's there
and has a screen saver password on his home PC
That creates a clearer picture. Any individual piece here – okay. All together? Not so much.
As for this -- He's got a very small social circle and doesn't regularly hang out with anyone but her and his weekend baseball team, that seems kind of odd, given how infrequently they see each other for people who are about to move in together.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 10:26 AM on May 19, 2010
You think that being *extremely* suspicious of a man walking down the street, holding hands with a woman who is not his girlfriend "reads like a parody"? People simply don't do that, at least not in America. Of course he was cheating, or was on his way to cheating.
posted by The Lamplighter at 10:27 AM on May 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by The Lamplighter at 10:27 AM on May 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
This relationship is over. If not because of the cheating, because of the nosiness from people that aren't involved in the relationship.
posted by jrockway at 10:39 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by jrockway at 10:39 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT buy a house with someone before living with them. Also, if she's thinking about marriage, it is well past time for him to stop being "protective of his personal life." Marriage = personal life. She's either in or she's not.
posted by thesmophoron at 10:50 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by thesmophoron at 10:50 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
That he was so apologetic immediately upon being asked about holding hands with his "friend" is very telling and highly suspicious. I may casually touch or hug friends, but I don't walk down the street holding their hand. Also, why did he drop her hand upon seeing his girlfriend's sister? Yup. Guilty.
That he shelters parts of his life is another huge red flag. If they're planning on co-mingling funds there should be zero secrets between the two of them. Zero.
No house. No babies. And I'm thinking at this point no relationship. Rules and passwords are not going to change anything here. Rules can be broken and passwords or accounts changed. He's definitely got stuff to hide.
posted by SoftSummerBreeze at 10:52 AM on May 19, 2010
That he shelters parts of his life is another huge red flag. If they're planning on co-mingling funds there should be zero secrets between the two of them. Zero.
No house. No babies. And I'm thinking at this point no relationship. Rules and passwords are not going to change anything here. Rules can be broken and passwords or accounts changed. He's definitely got stuff to hide.
posted by SoftSummerBreeze at 10:52 AM on May 19, 2010
Mod note: From the OP:
Hi, thanks for all the suggestions, even the tough love ones.posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:58 AM on May 19, 2010
This relationship is over. If not because of the cheating, because of the nosiness from people that aren't involved in the relationship.
Not sure I understand this point. My sister asked for some other opinions and I said I'd ask around, not being nosey, was asked to help.
And, to answer a few of the other questions
- Their plan has always been to live together, but both of them have jobs and sort of active lives already and so they go out a few nights a week and spend most weekends together. The assumption on both of their parts has been that they'll be spending more time together once they live together, but they're both sort of introverts and like their alone time. This made sense to me, clearly it doesn't to other people.
- She does hang out with him and his friends [and vice versa] from time to time and that's all been normal in the past, this is why the whole "Oh I have this friend you've never met" seemed weird.
- She's aware that "run don't walk" may be what she needs to do, but she feels that working through this, or trying to, doesn't make her a doormat either but she's aware that's a possibility.
It's clear from reading the answers that yeah, this is a situation with a lot of interpretations and not a cut and dried "Oh, normal people would do THIS" which is what we both thought, but were looking for some feedback from some people who are not us. Thanks for all the perspectives.
Here's my question in all this: if this woman is such a dear friend, dear enough that she's looking to BF to console her, why hasn't GF met her?
Yeah, this. He's hiding something, and I don't think she should waste her time finding out what. Ground rules are simply battle lines, and spending all your time skirmishing around, about & across them sucks. Letting go is a bitch, and second-guessing is normal. Let go anyway.
posted by Ys at 11:01 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yeah, this. He's hiding something, and I don't think she should waste her time finding out what. Ground rules are simply battle lines, and spending all your time skirmishing around, about & across them sucks. Letting go is a bitch, and second-guessing is normal. Let go anyway.
posted by Ys at 11:01 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
he will only ever admit what she's directly caught him in. if she doesn't want to spend her life in a cycle of suspect him/catch him/wait for him to grovel, then she needs to move on.
look, i hold hands with platonic friends - i hug them, i kiss them on the cheek (and i'm american) - but if i were "caught" in that situation, the conversation with my husband would go like this "hey hubby - [friend/sibling/coworker] saw me holding hand with joe - i think he thinks something fishy is going on, isn't that hysterical?" as that was absolutely not his response and he instead tried to hide as much as he could get away with - he'll keep trying to get away with stuff until he grows up (which may be never).
and, i know, it's the go-to mefi answer - but your sister could benefit from some individual counseling to talk about appropriate boundaries and how to see early warning signs of personalities that will be drawn to her because of her upbringing. only she has the power to stop people being shitty to her and she might need some guidance in harnessing that power.
posted by nadawi at 11:07 AM on May 19, 2010
look, i hold hands with platonic friends - i hug them, i kiss them on the cheek (and i'm american) - but if i were "caught" in that situation, the conversation with my husband would go like this "hey hubby - [friend/sibling/coworker] saw me holding hand with joe - i think he thinks something fishy is going on, isn't that hysterical?" as that was absolutely not his response and he instead tried to hide as much as he could get away with - he'll keep trying to get away with stuff until he grows up (which may be never).
and, i know, it's the go-to mefi answer - but your sister could benefit from some individual counseling to talk about appropriate boundaries and how to see early warning signs of personalities that will be drawn to her because of her upbringing. only she has the power to stop people being shitty to her and she might need some guidance in harnessing that power.
posted by nadawi at 11:07 AM on May 19, 2010
I dated someone who was very physically affectionate with his female best friend. Cuddling, hand-holding, playing with each other's hair. They did it in front of me, and in front of her husband, they were not trying to hide anything, and my boyfriend even asked to make sure I was okay with it, and let me know he would dial it down if it made me uncomfortable. It didn't, because I trusted him - and he never did anything to make me regret that trust.
Yes, platonic holding hands is unusual in our culture, but it's not impossible. The issue is not the holding-hands, it's the dropping them suddenly when you appeared. It's the failure to mention it to his wife. It's the fact that he keeps his life apart from her so private. I totally support couples having active, meaningful, fulfilling lives independent of the relationship - but independent doesn't mean secret, mysterious, worrisome.
In other words - it's not the affection, it's the deception. And I agree with others here, they can't move forward unless she's sure that he's being completely honest with her now - which I'm not sure he is.
posted by shaun uh at 11:07 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yes, platonic holding hands is unusual in our culture, but it's not impossible. The issue is not the holding-hands, it's the dropping them suddenly when you appeared. It's the failure to mention it to his wife. It's the fact that he keeps his life apart from her so private. I totally support couples having active, meaningful, fulfilling lives independent of the relationship - but independent doesn't mean secret, mysterious, worrisome.
In other words - it's not the affection, it's the deception. And I agree with others here, they can't move forward unless she's sure that he's being completely honest with her now - which I'm not sure he is.
posted by shaun uh at 11:07 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
If I were your sister, I would see major red flags and run the other way.
However, if she wants to try to work it out, I definitely agree with the couples counselling idea, plus taking the house purchase off the table. If they've been together for 3 years but never lived together and haven't really spent that much time together, and assuming they get past this issue, then they should try to just rent together. Right now, there isn't any commitment, real (i.e. marriage/engagement) or psychological (i.e. living in separate towns, seeing each other here and there, separate lives basically), and technically he doesn't owe her anything (other than being honest). But if they've been together for 3 years and haven't lived together, he's still secretive about his "personal life" (shouldn't she be his "personal life"? Why is that private from her?), etc. then it doesn't sound like they have that much of a foundation for their relationship. Personally, I would just cut my losses and look for a more "normal" and healthy relationship, but that's just what I would do.
posted by 1000monkeys at 11:11 AM on May 19, 2010
However, if she wants to try to work it out, I definitely agree with the couples counselling idea, plus taking the house purchase off the table. If they've been together for 3 years but never lived together and haven't really spent that much time together, and assuming they get past this issue, then they should try to just rent together. Right now, there isn't any commitment, real (i.e. marriage/engagement) or psychological (i.e. living in separate towns, seeing each other here and there, separate lives basically), and technically he doesn't owe her anything (other than being honest). But if they've been together for 3 years and haven't lived together, he's still secretive about his "personal life" (shouldn't she be his "personal life"? Why is that private from her?), etc. then it doesn't sound like they have that much of a foundation for their relationship. Personally, I would just cut my losses and look for a more "normal" and healthy relationship, but that's just what I would do.
posted by 1000monkeys at 11:11 AM on May 19, 2010
P.S. (Sorry about the weird italics in my comment above): How old are they? I mean, if they've been together since they were 18 and they're 20 or 21 now, that's a bit different than if they were in their 30's.
posted by 1000monkeys at 11:14 AM on May 19, 2010
posted by 1000monkeys at 11:14 AM on May 19, 2010
to expand on my counseling comment - it's not true for everyone, but it is certainly true for a big enough group that it is almost cliche -
people who grow up in chaotic homes can react by picking unsuitable partners and trying harder than they should to "make it work" - as a gross oversimplification, it's the part of her that is still a young child being ignored or pushed aside or treated badly trying to make someone love her, love her in the way her parents never did. she'll excuse all sorts of bad behavior in the hopes that he'll eventually see how wonderful she is and treat her nicely. problem is, he was probably drawn to her because she has poor boundaries and will excuse all manner of shittyness as long as he doles out the right amount of affection at the right time.
staying and trying to make a relationship work is not being a doormat, however, staying with someone who picked her because she's a doormat is probably more the problem here...
posted by nadawi at 11:19 AM on May 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
people who grow up in chaotic homes can react by picking unsuitable partners and trying harder than they should to "make it work" - as a gross oversimplification, it's the part of her that is still a young child being ignored or pushed aside or treated badly trying to make someone love her, love her in the way her parents never did. she'll excuse all sorts of bad behavior in the hopes that he'll eventually see how wonderful she is and treat her nicely. problem is, he was probably drawn to her because she has poor boundaries and will excuse all manner of shittyness as long as he doles out the right amount of affection at the right time.
staying and trying to make a relationship work is not being a doormat, however, staying with someone who picked her because she's a doormat is probably more the problem here...
posted by nadawi at 11:19 AM on May 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
This is not necessarily the behavior of a rotten cad.
Holding hands is not the behavior of a rotten cad -- some people do this with close friends. Trying to lie about it and cover it up IS the behavior of a rotten cad, and the reason I'm on the DTMF side.
posted by coolguymichael at 11:26 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Holding hands is not the behavior of a rotten cad -- some people do this with close friends. Trying to lie about it and cover it up IS the behavior of a rotten cad, and the reason I'm on the DTMF side.
posted by coolguymichael at 11:26 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
If I were your sister I'd put him on the spot when he's by his computer (yeah, the one with a password-protected screensaver which seems a bit strange for a home computer if he lives by himself) and ask him to log into his email so she can take a look at recent emails between him and this "dear friend." If he isn't cheating he'll be so anxious to show his innocence that he'll likely agree with no problems. If he's guilty he'll refuse and she'll know what to do.
posted by hazyjane at 11:27 AM on May 19, 2010
posted by hazyjane at 11:27 AM on May 19, 2010
You put it right: "this is a situation with a lot of interpretations." We clearly all have norms that may not have anything to do with your sister's life. (I would no more buy a house with someone that I haven't lived with than I would fly to the moon on the back of a cat with a jetpack. To me, that is so jaw-droppingly bizarre that I can barely envision it. But that might be a great choice for her!)
So, you asked about "new limits and ground rules"? Well, clearly she doesn't want him walking around town holding hands with other women. She might ask both 1) why he does that and 2) what it means and 3) not to do that any more. Also probably she would like to know who this friend is that is so close to her boyfriend that they hold hands while out on the town.
I suppose if I were in her shoes I'd feel both odd, and probably threatened. And confused! And I'd want to understand more about my boyfriend's life then. I guess I'd use it as an opportunity to have a series of very stepped-back conversation, as a way of re-getting to know him. What kind of person are you? Who are your best friends? What do you like to do? That's a way to build trust and learn more and advance the relationship.
I don't think boundaries are really the thing here. I think that when you have a relationship with lots of time apart, you have to more actively communicate.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 11:42 AM on May 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
So, you asked about "new limits and ground rules"? Well, clearly she doesn't want him walking around town holding hands with other women. She might ask both 1) why he does that and 2) what it means and 3) not to do that any more. Also probably she would like to know who this friend is that is so close to her boyfriend that they hold hands while out on the town.
I suppose if I were in her shoes I'd feel both odd, and probably threatened. And confused! And I'd want to understand more about my boyfriend's life then. I guess I'd use it as an opportunity to have a series of very stepped-back conversation, as a way of re-getting to know him. What kind of person are you? Who are your best friends? What do you like to do? That's a way to build trust and learn more and advance the relationship.
I don't think boundaries are really the thing here. I think that when you have a relationship with lots of time apart, you have to more actively communicate.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 11:42 AM on May 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
(Also, just to stress: really everyone's norms vary! For instance, people seem very freaked out by the computer password thing. Well, I will always keep a password on my computer, and I live with a partner. It's my computer! If he wants to read my email, he can ask me, like an adult! But it's not his email. And I don't read his mail or email, I don't listen to his voicemail, I don't look at his checkbook. That's called having boundaries, and trust. When I want to or need to know something, I am able to ask.)
posted by RJ Reynolds at 11:45 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by RJ Reynolds at 11:45 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
The assumption on both of their parts has been that they'll be spending more time together once they live together.
I wouldn't advise anyone to buy a home together without first trying to live together in a rented apartment.
posted by xammerboy at 12:18 PM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't advise anyone to buy a home together without first trying to live together in a rented apartment.
posted by xammerboy at 12:18 PM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
If the hand-holding were innocent, it likely wouldn't have stopped as soon as he saw you, and he wouldn't have felt the need to "come clean" after the encounter. So there's no question that, whether he slept with her or not, his intentions were certainly romantic.
So I would worry less about ground rules, and more about stopping any forward momentum (like buying a house) in the short term, and sitting down to say "look, I believe your intentions were romantic, and we've been together a long time. Before we buy a house or do any other big commitment steps, you need to consider whether you're happy with this relationship, or if there's something missing, something you were trying to get from her. While you're doing that, I'm going to decide if I still trust you, and if not, what we're going to do about it."
In short, it's not ground rules needed her, it's communication and time for consideration. And, uh, yeah, if they're not living together, and they're not married, then they shouldn't be buying a house together yet -- that sits somewhere along the spectrum between "bad idea in case things don't work out" and "he's trying to swindle her."
posted by davejay at 1:05 PM on May 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
So I would worry less about ground rules, and more about stopping any forward momentum (like buying a house) in the short term, and sitting down to say "look, I believe your intentions were romantic, and we've been together a long time. Before we buy a house or do any other big commitment steps, you need to consider whether you're happy with this relationship, or if there's something missing, something you were trying to get from her. While you're doing that, I'm going to decide if I still trust you, and if not, what we're going to do about it."
In short, it's not ground rules needed her, it's communication and time for consideration. And, uh, yeah, if they're not living together, and they're not married, then they shouldn't be buying a house together yet -- that sits somewhere along the spectrum between "bad idea in case things don't work out" and "he's trying to swindle her."
posted by davejay at 1:05 PM on May 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Oh, and steps like "give me all your passwords" are useless, because (if he's already got incriminating stuff stored) he'll just move everything first, or (for future endeavors) he'll set up additional mail accounts she doesn't know about.
posted by davejay at 1:09 PM on May 19, 2010
posted by davejay at 1:09 PM on May 19, 2010
"he's trying to swindle her."
This didn't occur to me, but this is certainly a possibility. It might merit some investigation. Personally, once I catch someone in a lie, I don't trust them about anything.
posted by MexicanYenta at 1:11 PM on May 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
This didn't occur to me, but this is certainly a possibility. It might merit some investigation. Personally, once I catch someone in a lie, I don't trust them about anything.
posted by MexicanYenta at 1:11 PM on May 19, 2010 [3 favorites]
I think even in a best-case scenario (in which he's a genuinely nice guy who does not mean any harm to your sister, and he's not actually sleeping with anyone else), it still means that he's someone who isn't clear on his own boundaries and that he hangs out with people who don't have/don't respect generally-accepted societal boundaries. That can be resolved, maybe, if he genuinely wants to resolve it. I'm not sure your sister has a good barometer for understanding his genuine desires here, though, and as such, has only his behavior to go on. And that means that while *we* can't usefully assess his overall behavior from this one data point, hopefully she can look at this instance within a larger context of their time together and see whether it points to a larger issue or not.
posted by judith at 1:23 PM on May 19, 2010
posted by judith at 1:23 PM on May 19, 2010
About 13 years ago, my then-wife took a trip to Mexico with a mutual friend that I was unable to go on due to some circumstance I forget. This was a guy I'd known for several years, and nothing seemed out of the ordinary at all. About 4 days into the trip, they rolled the car, there was a big to-do involving ambulances, mexican hospitals, and much arm-waving over international phone lines. It was a mess. I wasn't too terribly happy about my new-ish car at all.
About a week after I'd gotten her safely home, I went to visit some mutual friends (they knew all three of us). When I got there, one was standing over the open hood of a car, & the other was underneath it, tools in hand, looking up at something. I mentioned the wreck and how pissed off I was about the car, and then, trying to make light of it, said something like "Oh, well, I'm sure in 10 years, we'll all look back at it and laugh."
My friend Charlie who was lying under the car, without so much as rolling out to look up at me, instantly said "No, you won't."
A week later, I found the steamy e-mails.
My friend Charlie is a smart man.
posted by Devils Rancher at 1:30 PM on May 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
About a week after I'd gotten her safely home, I went to visit some mutual friends (they knew all three of us). When I got there, one was standing over the open hood of a car, & the other was underneath it, tools in hand, looking up at something. I mentioned the wreck and how pissed off I was about the car, and then, trying to make light of it, said something like "Oh, well, I'm sure in 10 years, we'll all look back at it and laugh."
My friend Charlie who was lying under the car, without so much as rolling out to look up at me, instantly said "No, you won't."
A week later, I found the steamy e-mails.
My friend Charlie is a smart man.
posted by Devils Rancher at 1:30 PM on May 19, 2010 [4 favorites]
To all of you who hold hands with your platonic opposite sex friends, do you also hold hands with your platonic same sex friends? I've never come across westerners holding hands with people they weren't dating, and even feel like the move to hold hands in public is something of a "step" in a relationship...
Which isn't to say it couldn't be an alternative attitude, but he clearly didn't act like it was, and their lack of openness about social lives seems out of sync with the level of seriousness they are aiming for. As mentioned above, once you are in a relationship, you usually just hear the details about your SO's circle of friends in the regular exchanges you have ("oh did I tell you about x?....") It's normal to have time apart or not share emails, or, you know, read each other's diaries, but it seems to me that it's not that common to have aspects of your personal lives kept completely unknown to the other. For a lot of people trust is really built by that everyday rundown of life that you get from one another.
posted by mdn at 2:01 PM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Which isn't to say it couldn't be an alternative attitude, but he clearly didn't act like it was, and their lack of openness about social lives seems out of sync with the level of seriousness they are aiming for. As mentioned above, once you are in a relationship, you usually just hear the details about your SO's circle of friends in the regular exchanges you have ("oh did I tell you about x?....") It's normal to have time apart or not share emails, or, you know, read each other's diaries, but it seems to me that it's not that common to have aspects of your personal lives kept completely unknown to the other. For a lot of people trust is really built by that everyday rundown of life that you get from one another.
posted by mdn at 2:01 PM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
i probably hold hands more readily with my platonic same sex friends. of course, i'm bisexual, so the gender isn't as important to the question for me, i guess.
although - most of the people (myself included) who say "i hold hands with platonic friends" also say "i don't think he was acting in a platonic manner".
posted by nadawi at 2:03 PM on May 19, 2010
although - most of the people (myself included) who say "i hold hands with platonic friends" also say "i don't think he was acting in a platonic manner".
posted by nadawi at 2:03 PM on May 19, 2010
If hand holding with opposite sex friends were normal for the sister and her boyfriend, the sister would know about it already. Like many in this thread, I've never known people to hold hands with their opposite sex friends (or really, same sex for that matter). If I saw my husband holding a woman's hand, I would immediately suspect something, because that behavior is not something either of us have ever done. It definitely crosses a boundary for us. Sure, it could be innocent, but like many have said it would be out in the open, not something dude would be stammering over and trying to hide.
I kind of like hazyjane's idea of putting him on the spot and looking at his email. Not as an ongoing practice, but right now so she can figure out exactly what is going on. I think the onus is on him right now to prove he's on the up and up in this situation, and then they can move on from there.
posted by JenMarie at 3:14 PM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I kind of like hazyjane's idea of putting him on the spot and looking at his email. Not as an ongoing practice, but right now so she can figure out exactly what is going on. I think the onus is on him right now to prove he's on the up and up in this situation, and then they can move on from there.
posted by JenMarie at 3:14 PM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
everyone assumes that this guy is going to agree to let her look at his emails? i would hit the roof if someone demanded that they look at my emails to prove something about my behavior. NO. WAY. this is nutty, in my opinion. and out of line. just because you're dating someone or even married to them doesn't give you the right to demand access to their email and voicemail. WOW. but, you know, if you FIND them yourself, that's another story i guess. if you want to know if the guy is cheating, ask one of his friends. something like that. stake him out. use all of your available resources (all of the resources that are really and truly available to you, specifically you) to take care of yourself in the relationship, whatever that means or whatever it looks like, but don't think that it is your right to demand passwords and read email.
posted by lakersfan1222 at 6:54 PM on May 19, 2010
posted by lakersfan1222 at 6:54 PM on May 19, 2010
and seconding davejay, both posts
posted by lakersfan1222 at 6:55 PM on May 19, 2010
posted by lakersfan1222 at 6:55 PM on May 19, 2010
I'd definitely put off the house buying/kids unless your sister feels like he's more trustworthy. The not answering calls without saying who called is a big flag to me. That would be something I'd start asking and if he was cagey, I think it would be reason enough to break up.
I know this is confrontational but if she knows the woman's name, can she get her number and ask if there's anything going on (polite, not angry). I think she'd have a better shot at an honest answer if she tells her that she and her boyfriend we're talking about buying a house and thinking about kids but if he's trying to start a relationship with another woman, she really needs to know. She'd probably either feel reassured by the answer or know that something isn't right.
This probably won't go over well with the boyfriend but he's given her reason to doubt that he's being truthful. A phone call to the other person involved would be what would give me enough information to judge the situation if this happened to me.
posted by stray thoughts at 10:29 PM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I know this is confrontational but if she knows the woman's name, can she get her number and ask if there's anything going on (polite, not angry). I think she'd have a better shot at an honest answer if she tells her that she and her boyfriend we're talking about buying a house and thinking about kids but if he's trying to start a relationship with another woman, she really needs to know. She'd probably either feel reassured by the answer or know that something isn't right.
This probably won't go over well with the boyfriend but he's given her reason to doubt that he's being truthful. A phone call to the other person involved would be what would give me enough information to judge the situation if this happened to me.
posted by stray thoughts at 10:29 PM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I didn't read everyone's responses but just a datapoint:
I very often don't answer phone calls in front of my boyfriend, mostly because I think it's kinda rude to engage in a conversation with someone while hanging out with another and I'm self conscious about things in a kinda weird way and sometimes I just don't want to talk to that person. I'm not hiding anything. Not a red flag in my situation at least so it's not necessarily in hers. Also if he's socially kinda weird he might just not like talking on the phone much, especially in front of other people.
I password protect my computer and don't necessarily want my boyfriend looking at everything on it. This is just basic privacy, once again I'm not hiding anything that is relevant to him or our relationship. I just like some privacy and I'm sure if he really wanted to know whatever I would probably tell him.
Before I started dating my boyfriend I used to hold hands with my best male friend all the time. He's gay so I guess it's a little different but still... now that we're dating the main reason (besides that it just feels weird) I don't hold said friend's hand, at least in public, is that it makes me anxious to think that one of my boyfriend's friends might see us. If this situation was happening I would react in the exact same way as your sister's boyfriend did. Now I still hold hands a lot with one of my good female friends. Really all this stuff just makes me anxious and feel weird about it, which makes me act kinda weird about it.
I am definitely not cheating on my boyfriend or doing anything he would disapprove of. If I hide anything like this it's just because I feel anxious or mildly embarrassed or something like that.
So maybe he isn't cheating. I suppose he might be but if he's socially weird he might just be anxious.
posted by tweedle at 11:55 PM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I very often don't answer phone calls in front of my boyfriend, mostly because I think it's kinda rude to engage in a conversation with someone while hanging out with another and I'm self conscious about things in a kinda weird way and sometimes I just don't want to talk to that person. I'm not hiding anything. Not a red flag in my situation at least so it's not necessarily in hers. Also if he's socially kinda weird he might just not like talking on the phone much, especially in front of other people.
I password protect my computer and don't necessarily want my boyfriend looking at everything on it. This is just basic privacy, once again I'm not hiding anything that is relevant to him or our relationship. I just like some privacy and I'm sure if he really wanted to know whatever I would probably tell him.
Before I started dating my boyfriend I used to hold hands with my best male friend all the time. He's gay so I guess it's a little different but still... now that we're dating the main reason (besides that it just feels weird) I don't hold said friend's hand, at least in public, is that it makes me anxious to think that one of my boyfriend's friends might see us. If this situation was happening I would react in the exact same way as your sister's boyfriend did. Now I still hold hands a lot with one of my good female friends. Really all this stuff just makes me anxious and feel weird about it, which makes me act kinda weird about it.
I am definitely not cheating on my boyfriend or doing anything he would disapprove of. If I hide anything like this it's just because I feel anxious or mildly embarrassed or something like that.
So maybe he isn't cheating. I suppose he might be but if he's socially weird he might just be anxious.
posted by tweedle at 11:55 PM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
You might say--hey! That's not control. They only do those things because they want to do them. True. But we do ask them to allow us this control; we ask them to do what we want; we expect them to subordinate their desires to ours in certain arenas of life.
The mature way of looking at this is: in a committed, living-together kind of relationship it should read:
"We expect them to align their desires with ours in certain arenas of life."
I want my wife to trust that I will be home by X time, etc. It's part of what I provide to her as her partner -- the genuine desire to fulfill her expectations. If I found them to be unreasonable, we would not a be a family.
If you find yourself struggling to subordinate your SO against their will, there's a fundamental, nay, insurmountable relationship flaw. I think perhaps this will be the case with the subject of this post, unless boyfriend decides to make substantial changes to his values concerning trust and privacy as a member of a monogamous partnership.
posted by Devils Rancher at 4:22 AM on May 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
The mature way of looking at this is: in a committed, living-together kind of relationship it should read:
"We expect them to align their desires with ours in certain arenas of life."
I want my wife to trust that I will be home by X time, etc. It's part of what I provide to her as her partner -- the genuine desire to fulfill her expectations. If I found them to be unreasonable, we would not a be a family.
If you find yourself struggling to subordinate your SO against their will, there's a fundamental, nay, insurmountable relationship flaw. I think perhaps this will be the case with the subject of this post, unless boyfriend decides to make substantial changes to his values concerning trust and privacy as a member of a monogamous partnership.
posted by Devils Rancher at 4:22 AM on May 20, 2010 [1 favorite]
Mod note: few comments removed - this is not about handholding customs and not about control vs desires math - please direct answers to the op or take it to MeMail, thanks
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:36 AM on May 20, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:36 AM on May 20, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
At the very least they should go to couples therapy together. But I think they should separate for a while so they can figure out if they really want to be together. If they do, they'll be back together after the separation, if not, they figured that out.
posted by jardinier at 8:57 AM on May 19, 2010 [1 favorite]