Vehicular woes
May 15, 2010 1:46 PM Subscribe
Our 2005 VW Diesel Golf needs a timing belt replaced. It has 111k miles on it. They suggested that they replace the water pump at the same time, even though it is perfectly fine. Is it worth it?
Their rationale: the water pump is hard to get to and the timing belt is right near it, so replacing it now (because "it will go eventually") will save us labor costs in the future.
My rationale: I try to live my life producing as little waste as possible, so why waste a pump that works fine now. Also, I am a poor graduate student.
So, is it worth it? Also, what happens if a water pump goes? Does your engine like die immediately or will it not be that dire? Which is to say, if I just drive around until it goes does that mean it's going to cause a chain reaction that will cost me a lot of money or will I just replace the water pump and be fine?
Their rationale: the water pump is hard to get to and the timing belt is right near it, so replacing it now (because "it will go eventually") will save us labor costs in the future.
My rationale: I try to live my life producing as little waste as possible, so why waste a pump that works fine now. Also, I am a poor graduate student.
So, is it worth it? Also, what happens if a water pump goes? Does your engine like die immediately or will it not be that dire? Which is to say, if I just drive around until it goes does that mean it's going to cause a chain reaction that will cost me a lot of money or will I just replace the water pump and be fine?
"if I just drive around until it goes does that mean it's going to cause a chain reaction that will cost me a lot of money(?)" Yup, pretty much. With 111K on the car, you are at the point where all of that stuff they told you to do each 10K, 20K and 60K miles (and you didn't do) might come home to roost. It could be another 20K miles or next week before the water pump goes. If you are diligent and look for the telltale leaks and sounds, you might catch it before it fails utterly and causes beau coup damage 25 miles from home.
What they are trying to tell you is that the odds are, if you keep the car much longer, the water pump is likely to fail. Pulling the pump while they are down there working on the timing belt is much less expensive than starting to do the job from scratch.
There are no guarantees. You may be one of those lucky ones for whom nothing else will go wrong. If it were my car, I would have it done while they're in there.
posted by Old Geezer at 2:01 PM on May 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
What they are trying to tell you is that the odds are, if you keep the car much longer, the water pump is likely to fail. Pulling the pump while they are down there working on the timing belt is much less expensive than starting to do the job from scratch.
There are no guarantees. You may be one of those lucky ones for whom nothing else will go wrong. If it were my car, I would have it done while they're in there.
posted by Old Geezer at 2:01 PM on May 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
The last time I was in that situation, I had them replace the pump.
Because the time-before-last I was in that situation, I DIDN'T have them replace the pump. And sure enough, the damned thing died about six months later, and was ridiculously expensive to replace.
It's totally worth it. Water pumps go out pretty frequently between 100-150k, in my experience.
(Not a mechanic, just a lifelong owner of shitty older cars.)
posted by ErikaB at 2:06 PM on May 15, 2010
Because the time-before-last I was in that situation, I DIDN'T have them replace the pump. And sure enough, the damned thing died about six months later, and was ridiculously expensive to replace.
It's totally worth it. Water pumps go out pretty frequently between 100-150k, in my experience.
(Not a mechanic, just a lifelong owner of shitty older cars.)
posted by ErikaB at 2:06 PM on May 15, 2010
At 111K your water pump is probably about to quit on its own. Best to replace it now as preventative maintenance. If it breaks while driving, you stand to cause some semi-major engine damage (cracked exhaust manifold, etc.). You'll have to do it sooner or later if you continue to drive the car. Why not do it now when you already have the mechanics under the hood?
posted by owls at 2:06 PM on May 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by owls at 2:06 PM on May 15, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's a bit of a pain in the ass to get to the pump and timing belt. The time spent removing everything to get there is at least half the cost of the job. So they're actually saving you money.
posted by snsranch at 2:24 PM on May 15, 2010
posted by snsranch at 2:24 PM on May 15, 2010
The Cartalk guys suggest replacing the water pump every time you do the belt. For exactly the reasons mentioned above: it will die soon, and when it does, they have to do all the labor again. The belt and water pump are a couple hundred bucks in parts max, and the balance of the repair is labor.
And when the pump dies, your engine will overheat within minutes. An overheated engine will destroy itself minutes after that. The best case scenario is that it stops running and you only have to replace some gaskets and seals. Worst case, you need a whole new engine.
posted by Netzapper at 2:33 PM on May 15, 2010
And when the pump dies, your engine will overheat within minutes. An overheated engine will destroy itself minutes after that. The best case scenario is that it stops running and you only have to replace some gaskets and seals. Worst case, you need a whole new engine.
posted by Netzapper at 2:33 PM on May 15, 2010
nthing that you should replace it, because it will fail, sooner rather than later, and the cost of labor to gain access to it again is substantially more than the cost of the pump itself. Poor grad student or not, it doesn't matter. Water pumps are not luxury purchases that you skip when money is tight; you replace it now because this is the most economical time to replace it.
posted by jon1270 at 2:52 PM on May 15, 2010
posted by jon1270 at 2:52 PM on May 15, 2010
Best answer: In the UK the costs of this job are around
£330 - chain only
£360 - pump only
£690 - chain and pump done as separate jobs
£390 - chain and pump done together
VW/Audi are very keen on recycling so theres a good chance the old pump will get recycled in some way.
posted by Lanark at 3:07 PM on May 15, 2010
£330 - chain only
£360 - pump only
£690 - chain and pump done as separate jobs
£390 - chain and pump done together
VW/Audi are very keen on recycling so theres a good chance the old pump will get recycled in some way.
posted by Lanark at 3:07 PM on May 15, 2010
Another TDI owner here, agreeing with your mechanic -- you should replace the water pump. And if you're just getting the timing belt done at 115K (which you should have gotten replaced at 60K, I think ... although for a 2005 I'm not sure of that interval), you've been living on borrowed time for a while anyway, so your water pump is probably on its last legs. As others have said above, the labor cost is pretty much the same so the additional cost should just be the cost of the parts.
On another topic: are you going to a VW dealer, or an independent VW specialist, preferably one that has a lot of experience with diesels? Replacing a timing belt on a TDI requires some specialized tools and knowhow that a lot of independent mechanics (and a depressing number of the dealerships) don't have. The fact that they want to replace the water pump is a good sign, but are they also planning to replace the tensioner and the rollers? If not, they should also be replaced -- and I would ask the mechanic in more detail about his/her experience with TDIs.
TDIClub is a great reference for all things TDI. The forum denizens will be happy to tell you about your local "TDI guru" if you ask. (Be warned that TDIClub seems to be populated mostly by a coterie of older dudes who have strong opinions about the way things should be done, and tend to be very prickly about dissenting views. They are very welcoming ... until they're not, if you get my drift.)
posted by harkin banks at 4:14 PM on May 15, 2010
On another topic: are you going to a VW dealer, or an independent VW specialist, preferably one that has a lot of experience with diesels? Replacing a timing belt on a TDI requires some specialized tools and knowhow that a lot of independent mechanics (and a depressing number of the dealerships) don't have. The fact that they want to replace the water pump is a good sign, but are they also planning to replace the tensioner and the rollers? If not, they should also be replaced -- and I would ask the mechanic in more detail about his/her experience with TDIs.
TDIClub is a great reference for all things TDI. The forum denizens will be happy to tell you about your local "TDI guru" if you ask. (Be warned that TDIClub seems to be populated mostly by a coterie of older dudes who have strong opinions about the way things should be done, and tend to be very prickly about dissenting views. They are very welcoming ... until they're not, if you get my drift.)
posted by harkin banks at 4:14 PM on May 15, 2010
Response by poster: Thanks for all of the answers, everyone! It looks like I'm getting my water pump replaced. :)
posted by sickinthehead at 4:54 PM on May 15, 2010
posted by sickinthehead at 4:54 PM on May 15, 2010
Best answer: Don't replace just the water pump and timing belt either.
I have a 2000 Jetta TDI that I bought used. When I bought it, it was already on its second timing belt. Shortly before it would have made it to its third timing belt, the timing belt tensioner, which had not been replaced, failed and the engine was messed up to the tune of a few thousand dollars (the TDI is an interface engine, so very bad things happen when the timing goes off). I guess the shop that installed the second timing belt (a VW dealer) decided the tensioner didn't really need to be replaced. Someone saved a few bucks and a few minutes of labour, and I ended up paying for it many times over.
The moral of the story? Replace everything timing belt related that could fail. That means the water pump, the tensioner, and the idler (they don't cost much). You might as well replace the accessory belt at the same time as well. There are even a number of bolts that are technically supposed to be replaced. If you shop will allow it, you can buy a full kit with everything needed online for $200-$300 (e.g. here, but there are many more).
If you haven't seen it yet, TDIclub is a very useful forum for TDI owners, with information on vendors of parts and recommended mechanics.
posted by ssg at 5:25 PM on May 15, 2010
I have a 2000 Jetta TDI that I bought used. When I bought it, it was already on its second timing belt. Shortly before it would have made it to its third timing belt, the timing belt tensioner, which had not been replaced, failed and the engine was messed up to the tune of a few thousand dollars (the TDI is an interface engine, so very bad things happen when the timing goes off). I guess the shop that installed the second timing belt (a VW dealer) decided the tensioner didn't really need to be replaced. Someone saved a few bucks and a few minutes of labour, and I ended up paying for it many times over.
The moral of the story? Replace everything timing belt related that could fail. That means the water pump, the tensioner, and the idler (they don't cost much). You might as well replace the accessory belt at the same time as well. There are even a number of bolts that are technically supposed to be replaced. If you shop will allow it, you can buy a full kit with everything needed online for $200-$300 (e.g. here, but there are many more).
If you haven't seen it yet, TDIclub is a very useful forum for TDI owners, with information on vendors of parts and recommended mechanics.
posted by ssg at 5:25 PM on May 15, 2010
Yes. Replace both at the same time. In addition to the water pump being hard to get at, the VW factory pumps have, in the past, featured plastic impeller blades, which have had a tendency to fall apart. This is not a good thing to have happen.
Make sure the replacement pump has metal blades.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:48 PM on May 15, 2010
Make sure the replacement pump has metal blades.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:48 PM on May 15, 2010
nthing replacing both. I did my own with the help of a trained VW guy who had all the special tools [if you're in MN, I'll point you to him if you want spend half a Saturday dong this; it's fun].
I bought the parts including the water pump online from idparts for something like $190. The fellow in Cambridge charged me $200 to walk me through the procedure. Every garage I called wanted $800-1000.
In my case [1998 Jetta TDI], replacing the water pump would involve nearly every bit of work that replacing the timing belt involved. You might not have to actually remove the timing belt to replace the pump, but you get one step away from doing so.
posted by chazlarson at 7:25 PM on May 15, 2010
I bought the parts including the water pump online from idparts for something like $190. The fellow in Cambridge charged me $200 to walk me through the procedure. Every garage I called wanted $800-1000.
In my case [1998 Jetta TDI], replacing the water pump would involve nearly every bit of work that replacing the timing belt involved. You might not have to actually remove the timing belt to replace the pump, but you get one step away from doing so.
posted by chazlarson at 7:25 PM on May 15, 2010
Definitely ask them to check the belt tensioners. I had a fairly new belt (40k) explode about two months ago, because a tensioner locked up.
My car's a 1986 (Saab 9000). I guess the belt tensioners are just one of those things you should replace every 24 years or so.
posted by ErikaB at 8:52 PM on May 15, 2010
My car's a 1986 (Saab 9000). I guess the belt tensioners are just one of those things you should replace every 24 years or so.
posted by ErikaB at 8:52 PM on May 15, 2010
Best answer: ALWAYS REPLACE THE WATER PUMP WHEN SERVICING THE TIMING BELT. This applies for ever single timing belt engine out there.
Replace everything: Tensioners, idler pulleys, and water pump.
The labor of replacing the timing belt is significant enough that not replacing the now 100,000 mile old components made accessible by the timing belt service would be just ridiculous. And how dumb would you feel to pay a couple hundred bucks worth of labor to have the water pump fail within the next year, your car overheats, and then you have to pay that same labor all over again.
At this interval, I would even replace stuff like valve cover gaskets and camshaft seals. The cam seal will be easier to get to with the timing cover off and you don't want an oil leak to deteriorate the new belt you put on. This TDI has been good to you for 100,000 miles. It's time to pony up a couple extra bucks to ensure future quality. Whatever is easy to get to with the timing belt off is much more expensive to replace when it fails later.
Whenever your trusted mechanic says, "Hey, while I have this apart, I know that X and Y are known to have certain failures and I recommend replacing them preemptively because it's convenient, not because of a current condition" give it some serious consideration. That's good preventative maintenance. And it's someone making a recommendation genuinely based on your interests, since their paid labor gain is going to be pretty minimal. There have been times that I've offered my customers deep discounts on parts that I recommended replacement of due to convenience because I felt strongly about it. Recently, I was doing a repair on a V6 Mitsubishi Eclipse that required the removal of the intake manifold. That manifold obscured much of the ignition system and it was a good opportunity to perform a long-over due tune up. Even though the car was running pretty well, I gave my customer the option of doing the tune up for an extra-half hour of labor and a reduced mark-up on the parts. In my experience, it's much easier to suggest this kind of preventative maintenance than it is to have an angry customer with a towed-in car ask why I didn't just do XYZ when the car just recently in the shop for a major service or repair.
Whatever additional expense you're faced with now is much less than the cost of a tow truck and the cost of re-doing the job.
posted by Jon-o at 9:19 PM on May 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
Replace everything: Tensioners, idler pulleys, and water pump.
The labor of replacing the timing belt is significant enough that not replacing the now 100,000 mile old components made accessible by the timing belt service would be just ridiculous. And how dumb would you feel to pay a couple hundred bucks worth of labor to have the water pump fail within the next year, your car overheats, and then you have to pay that same labor all over again.
At this interval, I would even replace stuff like valve cover gaskets and camshaft seals. The cam seal will be easier to get to with the timing cover off and you don't want an oil leak to deteriorate the new belt you put on. This TDI has been good to you for 100,000 miles. It's time to pony up a couple extra bucks to ensure future quality. Whatever is easy to get to with the timing belt off is much more expensive to replace when it fails later.
Whenever your trusted mechanic says, "Hey, while I have this apart, I know that X and Y are known to have certain failures and I recommend replacing them preemptively because it's convenient, not because of a current condition" give it some serious consideration. That's good preventative maintenance. And it's someone making a recommendation genuinely based on your interests, since their paid labor gain is going to be pretty minimal. There have been times that I've offered my customers deep discounts on parts that I recommended replacement of due to convenience because I felt strongly about it. Recently, I was doing a repair on a V6 Mitsubishi Eclipse that required the removal of the intake manifold. That manifold obscured much of the ignition system and it was a good opportunity to perform a long-over due tune up. Even though the car was running pretty well, I gave my customer the option of doing the tune up for an extra-half hour of labor and a reduced mark-up on the parts. In my experience, it's much easier to suggest this kind of preventative maintenance than it is to have an angry customer with a towed-in car ask why I didn't just do XYZ when the car just recently in the shop for a major service or repair.
Whatever additional expense you're faced with now is much less than the cost of a tow truck and the cost of re-doing the job.
posted by Jon-o at 9:19 PM on May 15, 2010 [2 favorites]
Water pumps have a number of failure modes, from seizing (disaster scenario, but it has happened to me), to leaking which gets progressively worse, and a lot in between. All require replacement of the water pump, just some require it NOW!
If you have a problem with the maths above just view it as insurance money, and take comfort that you (or the next owner) won't have to worry about that problem for another 100,000 cycle.
If you sell it, point out that it has had belts and water pump done = buy with confidence!!.
posted by GeeEmm at 11:04 PM on May 15, 2010
If you have a problem with the maths above just view it as insurance money, and take comfort that you (or the next owner) won't have to worry about that problem for another 100,000 cycle.
If you sell it, point out that it has had belts and water pump done = buy with confidence!!.
posted by GeeEmm at 11:04 PM on May 15, 2010
If it makes you feel any better w/r/t producing as little waste as possible, if your mechanic uses a VW factory water pump it is going to be remanufactured. So part of it has been recycled.
posted by zinc saucier at 11:21 PM on May 15, 2010
posted by zinc saucier at 11:21 PM on May 15, 2010
I try to live my life producing as little waste as possible, so why waste a pump that works fine now.
Water pumps are almost universally recycled. So that argument is moot.
Also, I am a poor graduate student.
You will be a poorer, no-driving graduate student if your water pump goes. When it does go, you will have doubled your costs. What's the expression? "Penny wise and pound foolish."
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:48 AM on May 16, 2010
Water pumps are almost universally recycled. So that argument is moot.
Also, I am a poor graduate student.
You will be a poorer, no-driving graduate student if your water pump goes. When it does go, you will have doubled your costs. What's the expression? "Penny wise and pound foolish."
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:48 AM on May 16, 2010
Whenever I see a VW/Audi/other car AskMe on the blue, I always scroll down for Jon-o's response. He's always on the money.
posted by Sutekh at 11:43 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Sutekh at 11:43 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Yeah, Jon-o is awesome!!! I used to live in Philly. Wish I'd known about him when I was up there!
posted by sickinthehead at 7:41 AM on May 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by sickinthehead at 7:41 AM on May 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
If the water pump goes, your engine will overheat. You'll have to stop driving almost
immediately, wherever you are. Assuming that your mechanics are not just jerking you
around, they'll then have to do a labor intensive operation to replace a cheap part.
You've already signed up for the labor intensive operation. Replace the cheap part now.
posted by the Real Dan at 1:56 PM on May 15, 2010 [1 favorite]