Did men really grab ladies' arms?
April 1, 2010 10:58 PM Subscribe
Did men used to grab women by the arm, like they did in the movies?
Whenever I watch a movie made before, say, 1965, I'm always struck by the way male actors frequently grab a woman by the arm just above the elbow. It's usually done to make the woman go with them, or turn around the woman around to face the man. Often it's quite forceful, but the actors make it seem natural. (Humphrey Bogart did this constantly.)
Once you notice it though, it looks downright bizarre. If a man tried something like this nowadays, it would be very odd. Most women would rightfully be offended and jerk their arms away.
Did men in real life actually used to grab women like this, or is this just something movie actors did? if the former, when did this change?
Whenever I watch a movie made before, say, 1965, I'm always struck by the way male actors frequently grab a woman by the arm just above the elbow. It's usually done to make the woman go with them, or turn around the woman around to face the man. Often it's quite forceful, but the actors make it seem natural. (Humphrey Bogart did this constantly.)
Once you notice it though, it looks downright bizarre. If a man tried something like this nowadays, it would be very odd. Most women would rightfully be offended and jerk their arms away.
Did men in real life actually used to grab women like this, or is this just something movie actors did? if the former, when did this change?
I noticed this a lot in movies and soaps when I first moved to Korea. I've seen it on the streets, too (though not as often as it occurs on TV of course), so I have to assume the scenes are reflecting reality to some degree. So I'd say yeah, I bet it was more common (and maybe less obviously rude?) at some point in the past. But seriously: gross.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 11:39 PM on April 1, 2010
posted by Joseph Gurl at 11:39 PM on April 1, 2010
Men still do it. I don't think it's as prevalent but I've had it happen several times.
posted by geek anachronism at 11:41 PM on April 1, 2010
posted by geek anachronism at 11:41 PM on April 1, 2010
Well, I think once a man was supposed to take a woman's arm, not just when going on to the dance floor, but when going any where with them at all. I remember having to do that as my prom date and I were photographed walking to the car (hey, it wasn't my idea, or even my family.) I don't think it was usually the grab that Bogie did but, yeah, it was control, with a tinge of protection and ownership, if not literally, symbolically.
posted by Some1 at 11:43 PM on April 1, 2010
posted by Some1 at 11:43 PM on April 1, 2010
I remember being told that this is the way you are supposed to guide somebody who is blind: it does the job of guiding without being quite as overbearing as dragging them along by the hand. I still think of it as the way you might guide somebody a lot more old and frail than you.
In movies it might have had something to do with the Hays Code - or even of shot composition.
posted by rongorongo at 11:43 PM on April 1, 2010
In movies it might have had something to do with the Hays Code - or even of shot composition.
posted by rongorongo at 11:43 PM on April 1, 2010
Men do it to other men in old movies as well. I've always put the discrepancy down to two things: we're less comfortable with physical contact and confrontation than we were fifty years ago; and movies tend to be about exaggerated, emotionally charged events.
posted by hattifattener at 12:16 AM on April 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by hattifattener at 12:16 AM on April 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
Heh. I just noticed a man-on-man arm grab in the latest episode of Lost, because it seemed so artificial and not the way you would ever grab someone in real life. My theory after thinking about it a little bit is that in real life, you would more likely stop or redirect someone's motion by moving or repositioning your own body in the other person's way, but this is inconvenient or impossible in TV/film due to camera angles, hence the somewhat awkward arm grab.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:25 AM on April 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Rock Steady at 12:25 AM on April 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
I see this occasionally when I'm out in Beijing -- an argument (usually of uncertain content, since I don't understand fast/idiomatic Chinese) between a man and a woman during which the woman starts to walk off and the man grabs her. China has a pretty awful domestic violence problem, as far as I can tell, and it always makes me very very nervous.
One time, though, I saw one couple do this several times in a row while I was waiting for a stoplight, and finally the woman stormed off. The guy looked confused for a minute, and then chased after her (at which point I was like, I don't care if I'm a scary foreigner, this is really bad). But all he wanted to do was give her purse back, which had been in the basket of his bicycle. His attitude seemed like, oh, you really wanted to leave?
So on one level, it seems like it might be a side-effect of a male-oriented society in which the rights of women to their bodies is not sufficiently well-defended; on another level, it seems like it can also be a kind of idiom that grows up in those societies -- a kind of walking away a woman can do* that allows this very specific kind of 'don't leave yet I still want you here' gesture, which can be applied in a negative (controlling, abusive) way or a positive (romantic, Bogart-ey) way.
* I'm not sure about that part, whether it's only applied in certain kinds of romantic situations, or is an option for any man at any time, which would make it way easier to abuse.
posted by Valet at 12:42 AM on April 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
One time, though, I saw one couple do this several times in a row while I was waiting for a stoplight, and finally the woman stormed off. The guy looked confused for a minute, and then chased after her (at which point I was like, I don't care if I'm a scary foreigner, this is really bad). But all he wanted to do was give her purse back, which had been in the basket of his bicycle. His attitude seemed like, oh, you really wanted to leave?
So on one level, it seems like it might be a side-effect of a male-oriented society in which the rights of women to their bodies is not sufficiently well-defended; on another level, it seems like it can also be a kind of idiom that grows up in those societies -- a kind of walking away a woman can do* that allows this very specific kind of 'don't leave yet I still want you here' gesture, which can be applied in a negative (controlling, abusive) way or a positive (romantic, Bogart-ey) way.
* I'm not sure about that part, whether it's only applied in certain kinds of romantic situations, or is an option for any man at any time, which would make it way easier to abuse.
posted by Valet at 12:42 AM on April 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
I always saw it as a sign of control. Parents will do this to children. It's not always with bad intention or judgment, but I notice that it's always on the part of someone who intends to be in control of the situation.
In the 50s, it was expected that any situation involving a man and a woman would have the man in control. If a woman grabbed a man by the arm, it was usually a nagging wife and a defeated-looking husband who had lost control of everything in his life. Tough guy bosses would grab skittish subordinates. Older children would grab younger children. Men expressing their control in the situation this way would not be surprising at all during that era. It still happens, but it's not as prevalent or accepted as before.
If you grab someone by the upper arm, you're saying "I am in control, you follow me." This can be as benevolent as supporting someone frail and unsteady or a concerned parent calming an excited child. It can also be a malicious lead into physical or mental abuse. Either way, it's authority, dominance, and control.
Well, that's what I see, anyhow.
posted by Saydur at 2:22 AM on April 2, 2010 [4 favorites]
In the 50s, it was expected that any situation involving a man and a woman would have the man in control. If a woman grabbed a man by the arm, it was usually a nagging wife and a defeated-looking husband who had lost control of everything in his life. Tough guy bosses would grab skittish subordinates. Older children would grab younger children. Men expressing their control in the situation this way would not be surprising at all during that era. It still happens, but it's not as prevalent or accepted as before.
If you grab someone by the upper arm, you're saying "I am in control, you follow me." This can be as benevolent as supporting someone frail and unsteady or a concerned parent calming an excited child. It can also be a malicious lead into physical or mental abuse. Either way, it's authority, dominance, and control.
Well, that's what I see, anyhow.
posted by Saydur at 2:22 AM on April 2, 2010 [4 favorites]
Movies of that period are often startlingly...violent towards women, by today's standards.
The romantic hero stalks the woman, forces a kiss on her, forces her against the wall etc.
And the lady keeps saying no, no! and then slaps him!
And then inexplicably falls in love with him.
I've often wondered how that must have messed with young men's perception of dating and women.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:33 AM on April 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
The romantic hero stalks the woman, forces a kiss on her, forces her against the wall etc.
And the lady keeps saying no, no! and then slaps him!
And then inexplicably falls in love with him.
I've often wondered how that must have messed with young men's perception of dating and women.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:33 AM on April 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
Yes, this happens in real life. Doesn't necessarily need to involve intent to dominate/control. My SO started to do this more or less unconsciously after we'd been dating for a little while - it wasn't my favorite thing in the world, and I asked him to stop. Turns out that for him it felt equivalent to linking elbows or grabbing hands - a way to be in contact while walking. I led him around by the upper arm a few times while out and about and he quickly realized how odd and restricting it feels to the guide-ee.
posted by heyforfour at 4:20 AM on April 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by heyforfour at 4:20 AM on April 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
Another woman reporting that this has happened to me in real life.
It freaks me out as well.
posted by bilabial at 5:50 AM on April 2, 2010
It freaks me out as well.
posted by bilabial at 5:50 AM on April 2, 2010
Older men at contra / square dances do this pretty often. Not very much fun for the woman whose arm is being pulled. It seems like they think of it as gentlemanly and experienced. But I've seen many of other men lead without being quite as physically forceful.
posted by ajarbaday at 6:02 AM on April 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by ajarbaday at 6:02 AM on April 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Happened to me so yea it happens. Some men can't stand a strong women who don't want to be with them and/or hear what they have to say.
posted by stormpooper at 6:04 AM on April 2, 2010
posted by stormpooper at 6:04 AM on April 2, 2010
People still do this to each other on TV all the time. I know because it jars me every time I see it. Example - on an episode of FlashForward last week the candy striper was chasing a guy she thought she knew down the hallway. When she finally reached him, she grabbed him by the arm, right above the elbow, and spun him around to face her. I remember thinking how TERRIFIED I would be if someone actually did that to me in the real world.
posted by citywolf at 6:07 AM on April 2, 2010
posted by citywolf at 6:07 AM on April 2, 2010
Yep, men still do this. Was a dealbreaker with an ex. I don't like being treated like a child or a weaker creature needing controlling. Saying something is "gentlemanly" doesn't make it so.
posted by desuetude at 6:24 AM on April 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by desuetude at 6:24 AM on April 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
I've actually done this a couple of times. On both occassions it was necessary to get someone's attention, in a "we need to get out of here because something bad is about to happen" way, and not in a "don't you dare walk away from me" sort of way. Sometimes it requires a little more force to get an intoxicated person's full attention so you can explain to them the wisdom of leaving before the inevitable fight breaks out as opposed to after. It's not something I'd say is acceptable in everyday life, though.
posted by dortmunder at 6:29 AM on April 2, 2010
posted by dortmunder at 6:29 AM on April 2, 2010
Men take my arm just above the elbow all the time. Its never forceful, its just kind of an old dude thing. It usually predicated by "Have you met Mr. X? Let me introduce you." and it always within the context of my job which being bascially smoothing over political bumps amoung old Southern dudes. I've never found it offensive.
All in all a lot of people are touchy in my line of work, we hug people, we keep our hand on the others elbow when we talk, etc.
posted by stormygrey at 6:44 AM on April 2, 2010
All in all a lot of people are touchy in my line of work, we hug people, we keep our hand on the others elbow when we talk, etc.
posted by stormygrey at 6:44 AM on April 2, 2010
I just saw this happen in a dyke bar here in Denver last weekend. I've seen it happen many times. Almost always it's happening in the context of a disagreement.
posted by FlamingBore at 7:07 AM on April 2, 2010
posted by FlamingBore at 7:07 AM on April 2, 2010
Men still do this. It's all I can do to not punch someone who has grabbed me in this fashion but I think often they don't mean it in that "I'm going to make you come with me" way that it feels like.
posted by jessamyn at 7:19 AM on April 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 7:19 AM on April 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
When I was pregnant in the winter, I had men several times take my arm above the elbow to help me across an icy patch. Generally men I knew, but once or twice a stranger (who always asked if I wanted help across the ice first). It *is* a good place to grip someone for stability. Women were more likely to put their arm under mine and lock our arms together (if you get the picture). I think it'd be a little weird as a normal thing because it IS kind of a restrictive "hold," but walking on ice with a messed-up center of gravity, I appreciated the help, and the restrictiveness gave it the stability.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:33 AM on April 2, 2010
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:33 AM on April 2, 2010
rongorongo: you said
I remember being told that this is the way you are supposed to guide somebody who is blind: it does the job of guiding without being quite as overbearing as dragging them along by the hand. I still think of it as the way you might guide somebody a lot more old and frail than you.
and I have to totally disagree. I've heard the opposite - that you are never supposed to do that. The blind person should take your arm, not the other way around. Holding someone by their arm like that can cause them to feel off-balance. Try it sometime - close your eyes and let someone drag you around by your arm. Then try holding on to their arm instead.
posted by komara at 7:59 AM on April 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
I remember being told that this is the way you are supposed to guide somebody who is blind: it does the job of guiding without being quite as overbearing as dragging them along by the hand. I still think of it as the way you might guide somebody a lot more old and frail than you.
and I have to totally disagree. I've heard the opposite - that you are never supposed to do that. The blind person should take your arm, not the other way around. Holding someone by their arm like that can cause them to feel off-balance. Try it sometime - close your eyes and let someone drag you around by your arm. Then try holding on to their arm instead.
posted by komara at 7:59 AM on April 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've had both men and women take my arm in this way (I'm a woman) and have observed it, infrequently, happening between people of either sex. I think I've actually had it done by other women a lot more -- if they want to say something which is important and private, or if an older lady is being solicitous, they might stand quite close while holding your upper arm. I always took it to be a way of getting your attention which was stronger than just saying 'hey.' I agree with a poster above that I live in an area which is probably more comfortable with touch than where a lot of other mefites live. I also agree that if someone ever attempted to walk me along like that (rather than just holding on while talking for a minute) I would think it strange and unpleasant, ditto if it ever happened during a disagreement.
posted by frobozz at 8:08 AM on April 2, 2010
posted by frobozz at 8:08 AM on April 2, 2010
You need to think of this in terms of the visual vocabulary of the films you're watching. Grabbing someone this way communicates control, danger, passion, desire, obsession, danger or even situational expertise (on the part of the grabber -- "come with me if you want to live").
Did men really do this? Certainly. Did they do it as often as you see in the films? Maybe.
But on film, it sure looks dramatic.
I used to work at Disneyland way back in the day, and was specifically instructed to grab people this way to help them onto the ride. I've grabbed thousands of people by the upper arm to guide them, whether they needed it or not. Never had a complaint. Context is everything. Grabbing someone to help them onto a fake boat = OK. Grabbing someone unironically and saying, "C'mere, dollface" = caveman.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:11 AM on April 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
Did men really do this? Certainly. Did they do it as often as you see in the films? Maybe.
But on film, it sure looks dramatic.
I used to work at Disneyland way back in the day, and was specifically instructed to grab people this way to help them onto the ride. I've grabbed thousands of people by the upper arm to guide them, whether they needed it or not. Never had a complaint. Context is everything. Grabbing someone to help them onto a fake boat = OK. Grabbing someone unironically and saying, "C'mere, dollface" = caveman.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:11 AM on April 2, 2010 [2 favorites]
I've always heard that the 'gentlemanly' thing to do is offer your arm; the lady will take it (lightly grasp your elbow or arm) if she chooses. That's an offer to lead, rather than a grasp to control.
komara, I've heard the same thing about offering assistance to the blind and/or elderly too.
In fact, that was one of my favorite scenes in Scent of a Woman:
Q. When did Col. Slade threaten to kill Charlie?
A. When Charlie first grabbed is arm in his house. Col. Slade felt that it was he who should grab Charlie's arm, never vice versa
posted by pointless_incessant_barking at 8:12 AM on April 2, 2010
komara, I've heard the same thing about offering assistance to the blind and/or elderly too.
In fact, that was one of my favorite scenes in Scent of a Woman:
Q. When did Col. Slade threaten to kill Charlie?
A. When Charlie first grabbed is arm in his house. Col. Slade felt that it was he who should grab Charlie's arm, never vice versa
posted by pointless_incessant_barking at 8:12 AM on April 2, 2010
Did men really do this? Certainly. Did they do it as often as you see in the films? Maybe.
But on film, it sure looks dramatic.
I think it's mostly the dramatic impact. And, it's probably a vicious circle, as in 1)Men sometimes do this, 2)It's very dramatic, so it's written in to tons of films, 3)Men see the films, think that's the way real men act, 4)rinse, repeat.
I think it goes without saying, though, that women were far more treated as chattel back then than they are today (at least I hope so.) For instance, if you watch enough films from the 40's and 50's, you'll notice a very nonchalant attitude about men hitting women. Hell, Lauren Becall's character sings a toe-tapping little ditty about beating a woman in The Big Sleep. If you are familiar with the scene, can you even imagine an actress today obligingly singing that song (without some sort of ironic or comedic balance?)
posted by Thorzdad at 8:37 AM on April 2, 2010
But on film, it sure looks dramatic.
I think it's mostly the dramatic impact. And, it's probably a vicious circle, as in 1)Men sometimes do this, 2)It's very dramatic, so it's written in to tons of films, 3)Men see the films, think that's the way real men act, 4)rinse, repeat.
I think it goes without saying, though, that women were far more treated as chattel back then than they are today (at least I hope so.) For instance, if you watch enough films from the 40's and 50's, you'll notice a very nonchalant attitude about men hitting women. Hell, Lauren Becall's character sings a toe-tapping little ditty about beating a woman in The Big Sleep. If you are familiar with the scene, can you even imagine an actress today obligingly singing that song (without some sort of ironic or comedic balance?)
posted by Thorzdad at 8:37 AM on April 2, 2010
Something I thought was very strange and unsettling was how when The Hurt Locker won the Oscar for Best Picture immediately after Kathryn Bigelow had won the Best Director award, the screenwriter grabbed her arm in a weirdly controlling way while he was giving his speech.
It was clear that she was nervous, but somehow it slightly diminished the moment for me, as I think she would've been fine without the forceful hand above her elbow.
posted by inkytea at 8:57 AM on April 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
It was clear that she was nervous, but somehow it slightly diminished the moment for me, as I think she would've been fine without the forceful hand above her elbow.
posted by inkytea at 8:57 AM on April 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
I didn't think about it at the time, but yeah, inkytea, it looks really possessive and weird (particularly since I'm watching with sound off at the moment).
Also: "I am Woman"? Give me a break. They should have just played music from the damn movie.
My experience with this gesture is that it's all in the intent: if my boyfriend were to hold my arm there to get my attention, it wouldn't bother me, because I'd know he means well. If a stranger did it, since I wouldn't be able to know their intent, or if someone was doing it to lead me someplace I didn't want to go, I'd be pissed.
posted by ocherdraco at 9:15 AM on April 2, 2010
Also: "I am Woman"? Give me a break. They should have just played music from the damn movie.
My experience with this gesture is that it's all in the intent: if my boyfriend were to hold my arm there to get my attention, it wouldn't bother me, because I'd know he means well. If a stranger did it, since I wouldn't be able to know their intent, or if someone was doing it to lead me someplace I didn't want to go, I'd be pissed.
posted by ocherdraco at 9:15 AM on April 2, 2010
Hell, I've had co-workers do this to get me to turn around and pay attention to them. The last time, I said "Can you not do that? It freaks me out." He said "Well, where else am I supposed to touch you to get your attention, on your ass?" I said "Where would you grab a guy?"
He was silent for a while, and then said "uh, I suppose I'd just say something" and I said "Do that, then." It still amazes me that he needed me to lead him through this particular line of reasoning.
posted by KathrynT at 10:40 AM on April 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
He was silent for a while, and then said "uh, I suppose I'd just say something" and I said "Do that, then." It still amazes me that he needed me to lead him through this particular line of reasoning.
posted by KathrynT at 10:40 AM on April 2, 2010 [3 favorites]
I remember being told that this is the way you are supposed to guide somebody who is blind.
Not really. You are supposed to offer them your arm and say, "Would you like to take my arm?"
posted by chrillsicka at 11:33 AM on April 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
Not really. You are supposed to offer them your arm and say, "Would you like to take my arm?"
posted by chrillsicka at 11:33 AM on April 2, 2010 [1 favorite]
RE: Bigelow's elbow in the Oscar's clip- I got the impression he wanted to connect with her, but both hands were full so since he couldn't hold her hand, he chose to maintain contact by grasping her elbow instead.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:50 PM on April 2, 2010
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:50 PM on April 2, 2010
This is getting a bit off topic, but wanted to comment on the Oscar clip, or just the gesture in general. I disagree with I_Love_Bananas. I thought it was pretty controlling and kind of awkward when he grabbed her arm. And I think what makes the difference is the involvement of the thumb. If he just wanted to connect, he could have just brushed her arm with his fingertips. But, instead, he grabbed. Same things goes with leading someone-blind or not. Just tapping the bicep with fingers is a suggestion, but when you add the thumb to that, when you grab, it's more of a command.
posted by shesaysgo at 11:12 PM on April 2, 2010
posted by shesaysgo at 11:12 PM on April 2, 2010
another modern data point: I'm male, and I've been grabbed in this way by both men and women in Chicago and New Jersey. The intent is quite variable and ranges from forcing me to come along to getting my attention in a noisy place to, on one occasion, stopping me from skating into the boards. I only remember doing it once, when a girl in impractical shoes asked for help down an icy sidewalk.
My guess is the elbow and upper arm is just a good place to grab someone, and gets used for whatever grabbing needs to be done. It's certainly preferable to the shoulder, where you can't get a good grip without hurting me, or the hand, which can be weirdly intimate in the right (wrong) context and requires my cooperation (I think dancers would call it "frame") to communicate any force up to my center of mass.
I wouldn't be taken aback to see a woman grabbed in this way, unless there were something else wrong with the situation. I mean, a man dragging a resisting woman along raises eyebrows no matter how he holds her, right? That said, I do notice that some of my opinions are a bit old-fashioned for my age cohort.
posted by d. z. wang at 4:03 AM on April 3, 2010
My guess is the elbow and upper arm is just a good place to grab someone, and gets used for whatever grabbing needs to be done. It's certainly preferable to the shoulder, where you can't get a good grip without hurting me, or the hand, which can be weirdly intimate in the right (wrong) context and requires my cooperation (I think dancers would call it "frame") to communicate any force up to my center of mass.
I wouldn't be taken aback to see a woman grabbed in this way, unless there were something else wrong with the situation. I mean, a man dragging a resisting woman along raises eyebrows no matter how he holds her, right? That said, I do notice that some of my opinions are a bit old-fashioned for my age cohort.
posted by d. z. wang at 4:03 AM on April 3, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by iamkimiam at 11:20 PM on April 1, 2010 [2 favorites]