Missing sentence in English translation of Homo Ludens
March 11, 2010 4:48 AM Subscribe
Any Dutch linguists out there that can help me with this sentence?
The English translation of Johan Huizinga's Homo Ludens seems to be missing some sentences. Can anyone tell me what the last sentence in this paragraph says? I have a rough idea (thanks to Google Translator) but it'd be nice to see it in a smooth sounding sentence. I'll also copy the whole Dutch paragraph below.
Nevertheless, these same sophists were responsible for the milieu which gave rise to the Hellenic idea of education and culture. Greek knowledge and Greek science were not products of the school as we understand it. That is to say, they were not the by-products of an educational system designed to train the citizen for useful and profitable occupations. For the Greek, the treasures of the mind were the fruit of his leisure, and for the free man any time that was not claimed by State service, war or ritual counted as free time, so that he had ample leisure indeed. The word 'school' has a curious history behind it. Meaning originally 'leisure' it has now acquired precisely the opposite sense of systematic work and training, as civilisation restricted the free disposal of the young man's time more and more and herded larger and larger classes of the young to a daily life of severe application from childhood onwards. In dat milieu nu van den vrijen tijd van den vrijen man was als eerste vertegenwoordiger van een leven van nadenken en onderzoek de sophist van oudsher thuis.
Tegelijkertijd echter zijn het de sophisten, die het milieu hebben geschapen, waarin de Helleensche ideeën van opvoeding en beschaving vorm aannamen. Grieksche wijsheid en wetenschap zijn nu eenmaal niet in de school (in onzen zin) gegroeid. Zij werden niet verworven als een bijproduct van de opleiding tot nuttige of winstgevende beroepen. Zij waren voor den Helleen de vrucht van zijn vrijen tijd, σχολή (scholē), en voor den vrijen man was alle tijd, dien staatsambt, krijg of eeredienst niet van hem opeischten, vrije tijd8. Het woord school heeft een merkwaardige voorgeschiedenis. In dat milieu nu van den vrijen tijd van den vrijen man was als eerste vertegenwoordiger van een leven van nadenken en onderzoek de sophist van oudsher thuis.
Ref: http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/huiz003homo01_01/huiz003homo01_01_0010.php p.178/9
Many thanks!
The English translation of Johan Huizinga's Homo Ludens seems to be missing some sentences. Can anyone tell me what the last sentence in this paragraph says? I have a rough idea (thanks to Google Translator) but it'd be nice to see it in a smooth sounding sentence. I'll also copy the whole Dutch paragraph below.
Nevertheless, these same sophists were responsible for the milieu which gave rise to the Hellenic idea of education and culture. Greek knowledge and Greek science were not products of the school as we understand it. That is to say, they were not the by-products of an educational system designed to train the citizen for useful and profitable occupations. For the Greek, the treasures of the mind were the fruit of his leisure, and for the free man any time that was not claimed by State service, war or ritual counted as free time, so that he had ample leisure indeed. The word 'school' has a curious history behind it. Meaning originally 'leisure' it has now acquired precisely the opposite sense of systematic work and training, as civilisation restricted the free disposal of the young man's time more and more and herded larger and larger classes of the young to a daily life of severe application from childhood onwards. In dat milieu nu van den vrijen tijd van den vrijen man was als eerste vertegenwoordiger van een leven van nadenken en onderzoek de sophist van oudsher thuis.
Tegelijkertijd echter zijn het de sophisten, die het milieu hebben geschapen, waarin de Helleensche ideeën van opvoeding en beschaving vorm aannamen. Grieksche wijsheid en wetenschap zijn nu eenmaal niet in de school (in onzen zin) gegroeid. Zij werden niet verworven als een bijproduct van de opleiding tot nuttige of winstgevende beroepen. Zij waren voor den Helleen de vrucht van zijn vrijen tijd, σχολή (scholē), en voor den vrijen man was alle tijd, dien staatsambt, krijg of eeredienst niet van hem opeischten, vrije tijd8. Het woord school heeft een merkwaardige voorgeschiedenis. In dat milieu nu van den vrijen tijd van den vrijen man was als eerste vertegenwoordiger van een leven van nadenken en onderzoek de sophist van oudsher thuis.
Ref: http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/huiz003homo01_01/huiz003homo01_01_0010.php p.178/9
Many thanks!
Best answer: The part below is not present in the Dutch version, or at least not in that paragraph.
Meaning originally 'leisure' it has now acquired precisely the opposite sense of systematic work and training, as civilisation restricted the free disposal of the young man's time more and more and herded larger and larger classes of the young to a daily life of severe application from childhood onwards.
In dat milieu nu van den vrijen tijd van den vrijen man was als eerste vertegenwoordiger van een leven van nadenken en onderzoek de sophist van oudsher thuis.
"In that environment, that of the free time of the free man, the sophist as the first representative of a life of thinking and research(1) was perfectly at home"
(1) Maybe "research" isn't the best English translation, there's an implication of "seeking" implied by the Dutch word "onderzoek" in the language at the time.
posted by atrazine at 5:33 AM on March 11, 2010
Meaning originally 'leisure' it has now acquired precisely the opposite sense of systematic work and training, as civilisation restricted the free disposal of the young man's time more and more and herded larger and larger classes of the young to a daily life of severe application from childhood onwards.
In dat milieu nu van den vrijen tijd van den vrijen man was als eerste vertegenwoordiger van een leven van nadenken en onderzoek de sophist van oudsher thuis.
"In that environment, that of the free time of the free man, the sophist as the first representative of a life of thinking and research(1) was perfectly at home"
(1) Maybe "research" isn't the best English translation, there's an implication of "seeking" implied by the Dutch word "onderzoek" in the language at the time.
posted by atrazine at 5:33 AM on March 11, 2010
Well although I have been working in the Hague periodically for more than two years and am not anything like fluent in Nederlands (but trying), it says something like:
"In that environment from the free time of the free man who first made love as a representation of a life of reflection and study, the sophist makes love from far back at home."
Not sure about the last part - more literal than representative. Perhaps Mutant or Mrs. Mutant will chime in.
posted by three blind mice at 5:34 AM on March 11, 2010
"In that environment from the free time of the free man who first made love as a representation of a life of reflection and study, the sophist makes love from far back at home."
Not sure about the last part - more literal than representative. Perhaps Mutant or Mrs. Mutant will chime in.
posted by three blind mice at 5:34 AM on March 11, 2010
Whoa Mister; there is a difference between making love and the vrijen in this sentence, which is the archaic declension of vrij. The first and second answers seem fine to this native speaker.
posted by thijsk at 6:12 AM on March 11, 2010
posted by thijsk at 6:12 AM on March 11, 2010
Nothing to do with making love, this. The first two answers have it. More or less.
posted by Skyanth at 6:16 AM on March 11, 2010
posted by Skyanth at 6:16 AM on March 11, 2010
Response by poster: Thanks everyone! I think I've got it now.
On the "making love" thing, one of the online translators I used said something "the sophist fucks at home in the olden days"!
posted by thesailor at 6:51 AM on March 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
On the "making love" thing, one of the online translators I used said something "the sophist fucks at home in the olden days"!
posted by thesailor at 6:51 AM on March 11, 2010 [2 favorites]
Native speaker beanplater here.
I would go with:
"As a prime representative of a life of thought and study, the sophist has always felt naturally at home in this milieu of the free man's leisure."
-"Spare time" is correct but is already rendered in the English text as "leisure", plus "leisure" is a reasonably accurate translation of the Greek.
-"Van oudsher" denotes originality and tradition, as in "onze familie woont hier van oudsher" "our family has lived here for as long as I can remember" or "our family has always lived here".
-"Eerste" does mean "first" but I suspect here a sense is intended like "eminent" or "exemplary", hence "prime". Compare "eerste minister" "prime minister".
-"Onderzoek" can correctly be translated as "research", but this connotates a more narrow sense of structured, systematic analysis, whereas the broader sense of gathering information about an object or topic, or the act of "onderzoeken" is IMO better covered by "(to) study".
-I also changed the clause order, because the original one reads as clunkily in English as it does in Dutch to this contemporary reader.
Just my two cents.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 12:23 PM on March 11, 2010
I would go with:
"As a prime representative of a life of thought and study, the sophist has always felt naturally at home in this milieu of the free man's leisure."
-"Spare time" is correct but is already rendered in the English text as "leisure", plus "leisure" is a reasonably accurate translation of the Greek.
-"Van oudsher" denotes originality and tradition, as in "onze familie woont hier van oudsher" "our family has lived here for as long as I can remember" or "our family has always lived here".
-"Eerste" does mean "first" but I suspect here a sense is intended like "eminent" or "exemplary", hence "prime". Compare "eerste minister" "prime minister".
-"Onderzoek" can correctly be translated as "research", but this connotates a more narrow sense of structured, systematic analysis, whereas the broader sense of gathering information about an object or topic, or the act of "onderzoeken" is IMO better covered by "(to) study".
-I also changed the clause order, because the original one reads as clunkily in English as it does in Dutch to this contemporary reader.
Just my two cents.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 12:23 PM on March 11, 2010
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Oh wow that's one archaic Dutch sentence. "Now, in that milieu (environment) of the spare time of the free man, the sophist, as the first representative of a life of research and contemplation, was in his natural environment." Sort of. "Van oudsher thuis" means traditionally feeling at home, literally; I think natural environment is a better translation of that.
posted by transporter accident amy at 5:24 AM on March 11, 2010