An area for potential jealousy... do I compromise or drop him?
January 28, 2010 1:44 PM Subscribe
Theoretical relationship filter: Would my boyfriend be a jealous freak if he told me he doesn't like or want me getting theraputic massages from my cousin's husband who's a licensed masseuse?
This is theorectically speaking, I don't have a serious relationship (this is for my future reference) but my cousins operate a spirtual healing business (they're wiccan) and her husband is a professional masseuse and I've been going to them for a long time. They are family. End of story. So, if my boyfriend (hypothetically speaking) gave me a hard time with seeing them, I would automatically think of this as a red flag. What's the fine line between compromising and being controlled? I don't want to get into the habit of worrying that something innocent as a totally non-sexual massage ('cause it's actually painful) is going to piss off my boyfriend or anything else that I know is innocent. I've been there, done that and it totally crushed my spirit. Do I compromise positive times with my family to soothe my boyfriend's ego or do I continue to do what's healthy for me?
This is theorectically speaking, I don't have a serious relationship (this is for my future reference) but my cousins operate a spirtual healing business (they're wiccan) and her husband is a professional masseuse and I've been going to them for a long time. They are family. End of story. So, if my boyfriend (hypothetically speaking) gave me a hard time with seeing them, I would automatically think of this as a red flag. What's the fine line between compromising and being controlled? I don't want to get into the habit of worrying that something innocent as a totally non-sexual massage ('cause it's actually painful) is going to piss off my boyfriend or anything else that I know is innocent. I've been there, done that and it totally crushed my spirit. Do I compromise positive times with my family to soothe my boyfriend's ego or do I continue to do what's healthy for me?
Everyone's tolerance for jealousy is different. That wouldn't bother boyfriend-me, and I wouldn't be too likely to accept that level of control/jealousy from a partner. But I'm just me, and others will feel otherwise.
Since this is family and a long-time thing (massage) you're doing, presumably any future boyfriend would know about it pretty quick, so it's not like it would be a surprise after you were already in a relationship, right?
"My cousins are wiccans and I get a massage from Joe every two weeks, it's amazing" is a pretty small bit of data about you that will probably come up in the first couple of weeks dating someone, anyway.
posted by rokusan at 1:47 PM on January 28, 2010
Since this is family and a long-time thing (massage) you're doing, presumably any future boyfriend would know about it pretty quick, so it's not like it would be a surprise after you were already in a relationship, right?
"My cousins are wiccans and I get a massage from Joe every two weeks, it's amazing" is a pretty small bit of data about you that will probably come up in the first couple of weeks dating someone, anyway.
posted by rokusan at 1:47 PM on January 28, 2010
you don't need permission to have a deal breaker. just realize that a potential boyfriend who is uncomfortable with you being touched while naked by someone you know personally, instead of just professionally, doesn't automatically make him a jealous, controlling asshole. it just means that you guys see things like that differently.
also: it might help if you distinguish the difference between red flag (this person is exhibiting behaviors that i feel are signs of danger to come) and deal breakers (this person has a world view that doesn't coincide with mine, thus we won't be a good match romantically).
posted by nadawi at 1:48 PM on January 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
also: it might help if you distinguish the difference between red flag (this person is exhibiting behaviors that i feel are signs of danger to come) and deal breakers (this person has a world view that doesn't coincide with mine, thus we won't be a good match romantically).
posted by nadawi at 1:48 PM on January 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure I understand the question. You say you don't have a boyfriend...so, you have the perfect opportunity to find someone who WOULDN'T have a problem with this. If it's possible for you to do that, then I'm not sure why your'e asking this question?
If it's any help, I've been in an even WEIRDER position: I'm friendly with an ex, and his current girlfriend IS a licensed masseuse who operates out of their home. They were both comfortable with me getting a massage from her, even though the whole situation felt vaguely to me like it was the setup for some low-budget porn film.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:49 PM on January 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
If it's any help, I've been in an even WEIRDER position: I'm friendly with an ex, and his current girlfriend IS a licensed masseuse who operates out of their home. They were both comfortable with me getting a massage from her, even though the whole situation felt vaguely to me like it was the setup for some low-budget porn film.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:49 PM on January 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
First of all, if you're going to a professional masseuse because you find them therapeutic then any partner of your who said that he didn't want you getting them is a jealous freak, or at least overly jealous.
Add in the fact that
a) You've been going to them for a long time, and
b) It's your family,
said partner would definitely be in the wrong.
Now, if he were to say he didn't like it, it's a bit more acceptable. It's harder to control what one likes, etc etc. That situation would require the two of you to talk, to figure out what he doesn't like about it. A fair compromise might be that he comes along to a massage, either with you or for himself, to assuage his worries.
Beyond that, no compromise is warranted. Therapeutic massages are amazing, and sexual relations don't come into it. Nobody should be trying to stop you.
posted by Lemurrhea at 1:50 PM on January 28, 2010
Add in the fact that
a) You've been going to them for a long time, and
b) It's your family,
said partner would definitely be in the wrong.
Now, if he were to say he didn't like it, it's a bit more acceptable. It's harder to control what one likes, etc etc. That situation would require the two of you to talk, to figure out what he doesn't like about it. A fair compromise might be that he comes along to a massage, either with you or for himself, to assuage his worries.
Beyond that, no compromise is warranted. Therapeutic massages are amazing, and sexual relations don't come into it. Nobody should be trying to stop you.
posted by Lemurrhea at 1:50 PM on January 28, 2010
Disapproving of ALL massage is controlling.
Being uncomfortable about a massage from a specific person is him having an ook about that guy, which happens and is not necessarily out of line.
posted by Billegible at 1:50 PM on January 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
Being uncomfortable about a massage from a specific person is him having an ook about that guy, which happens and is not necessarily out of line.
posted by Billegible at 1:50 PM on January 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
Would my boyfriend be a jealous freak if he told me he doesn't like or want me getting theraputic massages from my cousin's husband who's a licensed masseuse?
Yes.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:51 PM on January 28, 2010
Yes.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:51 PM on January 28, 2010
Response by poster: desuetude, I guess I'm feeling out my ideas of jealousy and what's rational especially coming from a significant other. Sometimes I'm made to feel bad about something that I know isn't wrong but will make me second guess myself. I'm trying not to do that especially when it comes to romantic relationships. I presented this example because it's something I enjoy in my life and I feel threatened when one wants to make it seem like it's wrong.
posted by InterestedInKnowing at 1:52 PM on January 28, 2010
posted by InterestedInKnowing at 1:52 PM on January 28, 2010
If your theoretical boyfriend has a particularized discomfort with you getting a massage from your cousin's husband (which I have to say would turn my stomach, either as the massage recipient or the boyfriend), I don't think it's a red flag. If he doesn't want you to get any massages from men, I think that's a red flag.
I'm sure there will be a mob of people rallying against your theoretical boyfriend, however. Silly theoretical boyfriend and his hypothetical jealousy issues.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 1:55 PM on January 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm sure there will be a mob of people rallying against your theoretical boyfriend, however. Silly theoretical boyfriend and his hypothetical jealousy issues.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 1:55 PM on January 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
Meh. I don't think there's a list of things that are justifiable or non-justifiable for people to feel jealous about, in an absolute way.
I think this is all about individuals and communication. I think, in general, that everyone is entitled to want exactly what they want in a relationship, and to ask for exactly what they want in a relationship. And their partner is entitled to say no, or to end the relationship. And neither of them should feel guilty about that or that what they wanted was "wrong" as long long as they respect the other person's right to differ.
So. I think that if your boyfriend had a problem with you getting a massage from this guy, he would have the right to feel that way. And you would have the right to keep wanting/getting massages from that guy. And the two of you could break up. Or you could figure out a way to understand where each other were coming from. Or one of you could defer to the other without understanding. I think all three of those things are totall valid.
Data point: I wouldn't have a problem, with a boyfriend having a problem with me getting massaged in the nude by a dude, even if it was totally nonsexual. But what I wouldn't have a problem with doesn't matter at all.
posted by Ashley801 at 2:03 PM on January 28, 2010
I think this is all about individuals and communication. I think, in general, that everyone is entitled to want exactly what they want in a relationship, and to ask for exactly what they want in a relationship. And their partner is entitled to say no, or to end the relationship. And neither of them should feel guilty about that or that what they wanted was "wrong" as long long as they respect the other person's right to differ.
So. I think that if your boyfriend had a problem with you getting a massage from this guy, he would have the right to feel that way. And you would have the right to keep wanting/getting massages from that guy. And the two of you could break up. Or you could figure out a way to understand where each other were coming from. Or one of you could defer to the other without understanding. I think all three of those things are totall valid.
Data point: I wouldn't have a problem, with a boyfriend having a problem with me getting massaged in the nude by a dude, even if it was totally nonsexual. But what I wouldn't have a problem with doesn't matter at all.
posted by Ashley801 at 2:03 PM on January 28, 2010
I think the fact that it's your cousin's husband makes it weirder, not less weird. At least it would be for me as the person getting the massage, not as a boyfriend of the massage recipient. Not really sure what Wicca has to do with it, either.
But just in general, lots of women get massages from men and vice versa and it's not a thing. Massage therapists are professionals. Would your boyfriend be mad if you went to a male gynecologist? Besides, unless you're getting some kind of special massage, the most intimate area the massage therapist should be touching is your butt (the place I go, they massage your butt through the towel anyway).
posted by ishotjr at 2:04 PM on January 28, 2010
But just in general, lots of women get massages from men and vice versa and it's not a thing. Massage therapists are professionals. Would your boyfriend be mad if you went to a male gynecologist? Besides, unless you're getting some kind of special massage, the most intimate area the massage therapist should be touching is your butt (the place I go, they massage your butt through the towel anyway).
posted by ishotjr at 2:04 PM on January 28, 2010
Everybody's allowed to be a little uptight and freaky now and then. It's not an automatic red flag. The problem is more your inability to discern whether someone's being controlling or just uptight about some minor thing.
There are two things to consider, as I see it, whether there's repetition, meaning he has lots of this kind of concern, and tone, whether he's asking politely for understanding or demanding you do something.
Is he demanding you stop doing this? Or is he asking? Is this a habit? Or a favor?
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:07 PM on January 28, 2010
There are two things to consider, as I see it, whether there's repetition, meaning he has lots of this kind of concern, and tone, whether he's asking politely for understanding or demanding you do something.
Is he demanding you stop doing this? Or is he asking? Is this a habit? Or a favor?
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:07 PM on January 28, 2010
Sometimes I'm made to feel bad about something that I know isn't wrong but will make me second guess myself.
I don't quite understand what this means. Do you mean that someone (who?) is actually making you feel bad (and thus second-guess yourself)? Or that you feel an internal sense of discomfort that prompts your second-guessing?
posted by scody at 2:09 PM on January 28, 2010
I don't quite understand what this means. Do you mean that someone (who?) is actually making you feel bad (and thus second-guess yourself)? Or that you feel an internal sense of discomfort that prompts your second-guessing?
posted by scody at 2:09 PM on January 28, 2010
Sometimes I'm made to feel bad about something that I know isn't wrong but will make me second guess myself.
Who's doing this to you? It's not quite fair of them.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:10 PM on January 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
Who's doing this to you? It's not quite fair of them.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:10 PM on January 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't think it really matters outside the context of your current (hypothetical?) relationship. It doesn't matter if someone else would be comfortable/uncomfortable with it, because regardless of that it matters to your boyfriend. Is this something you're willing to compromise on with him, or would you rather tell him to suck it up?
If it was something you didn't want to give up I'd suggest talking it over with him and figuring out why it is he's getting so jealous, and see if you can't find some way for him to be not-so-jealous of it.
If you haven't been with him long enough to warrant that I'd say just find someone else who will be comfortable with it.
posted by biochemist at 2:13 PM on January 28, 2010
If it was something you didn't want to give up I'd suggest talking it over with him and figuring out why it is he's getting so jealous, and see if you can't find some way for him to be not-so-jealous of it.
If you haven't been with him long enough to warrant that I'd say just find someone else who will be comfortable with it.
posted by biochemist at 2:13 PM on January 28, 2010
I think this sort of question gets the premises wrong. There is no general standard to apply to these sorts of things. Some dudes would care, others wouldn't. What is needed is negotiation regarding the whole thing. In other words, ahead of time, you and him would have to have a talk about what everyone wants. While it doesn't cover every situation, it gives you an idea of what he wants in terms of contact with persons who belong to the class of people you are attracted to and whether or not you are OK with that.
In other words, there can be innocent contact that triggers painful feelings for people. After all, jealousy is a system that isn't controlled by rational thought. Our reactions to it are controlled by rational thought, but it isn't controllable by thought. You either have the feeling or you don't. Some partners feel just fine with avoiding that contact in order to spare their S.O.s.
There is literally no WRONG or RIGHT here. There is what people want that makes them comfortable or doesn't bother them at all. You can't refer to an objective standard because there isn't one. You can't say "what people generally think" because approval doesn't make something right or wrong.
For me, its about sexual and romantic expression and emotional intimacy. I want to be the only person my partner is having sexual and romantic expression with, and I want my partner to have more emotional intimacy with me than with any other man in their lives (OK, dads, bros sometimes are gonna be closer, given circumstances, you know what I mean). I also don't want to be put in a situaiton where my jealousy reactions might be triggered in ways which would be painful to me, such as intense flirting with another person right in front of me. (indeed, no intense flirting with others is another thing I am asking for.) But I would not be happy with my S.O. discussing our deepest secrets with another man who is a potential romantic target. Nobody's ever done that to me, but I was the other man once in an EA and I ended up contributing to the breakup of an engagement. I didn't intend to do so, and didn't have any sexual feelings about her that I was willing to acknowledge. But after a while he got really tired of hearing about how wonderful I was every single night (which is what it became).
This is what I want. You and Eventual Dude might want something else entirely. But it is an example of what a person could want and ask for. Of course you can price yourself out of the market, so to speak, but then a person changes their expectations.
Its a negotiation, not a standard.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:14 PM on January 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
In other words, there can be innocent contact that triggers painful feelings for people. After all, jealousy is a system that isn't controlled by rational thought. Our reactions to it are controlled by rational thought, but it isn't controllable by thought. You either have the feeling or you don't. Some partners feel just fine with avoiding that contact in order to spare their S.O.s.
There is literally no WRONG or RIGHT here. There is what people want that makes them comfortable or doesn't bother them at all. You can't refer to an objective standard because there isn't one. You can't say "what people generally think" because approval doesn't make something right or wrong.
For me, its about sexual and romantic expression and emotional intimacy. I want to be the only person my partner is having sexual and romantic expression with, and I want my partner to have more emotional intimacy with me than with any other man in their lives (OK, dads, bros sometimes are gonna be closer, given circumstances, you know what I mean). I also don't want to be put in a situaiton where my jealousy reactions might be triggered in ways which would be painful to me, such as intense flirting with another person right in front of me. (indeed, no intense flirting with others is another thing I am asking for.) But I would not be happy with my S.O. discussing our deepest secrets with another man who is a potential romantic target. Nobody's ever done that to me, but I was the other man once in an EA and I ended up contributing to the breakup of an engagement. I didn't intend to do so, and didn't have any sexual feelings about her that I was willing to acknowledge. But after a while he got really tired of hearing about how wonderful I was every single night (which is what it became).
This is what I want. You and Eventual Dude might want something else entirely. But it is an example of what a person could want and ask for. Of course you can price yourself out of the market, so to speak, but then a person changes their expectations.
Its a negotiation, not a standard.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:14 PM on January 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
My gf likes to get massages. I would prefer she go to a woman (especially since I know some masseurs, and you wouldn't believe the shit they say after massaging a cute girl). On the other hand, if it's someone she's been going to a for a long time -- and especially a member of her family -- I wouldn't give it a second thought. Unless I met him and he was an asshole.
posted by coolguymichael at 2:20 PM on January 28, 2010
posted by coolguymichael at 2:20 PM on January 28, 2010
Personally I wouldn't be very comfortable with that relationship (cousin-masseur) -- probably because it's not the kind of relationship that my family would be comfortable with. (That is, I don't really do business with family, and we definitely don't do a lot of unnecessary touching -- afaik, I'm the only one in my family who's comfortable even GETTING a massage. We have big personal space bubbles.) But I would certainly listen and TRY to understand that relationship for others. I can't swear I'd be comfortable with my S.O. having such a relationship, though.
Given your response, I think what I would be on the watch for is WHY the friend/boyfriend/whomever is making you feel bad FEELS the way they do. People have different levels of personal comfort with all different kinds of relationships. (My mother moved in with us for a couple weeks after the baby arrived to take care of me and the baby -- I loved it. Some people who would be fine with a cousin-masseur would find that WAY over the line, personal-space-wise.) Is this their personal discomfort with that relationship? Is their family different? Are they big-space-bubble people like me who aren't all that comfortable with massage generally? Or is this part of an overall pattern of telling you what you should and shouldn't think, who you should and shouldn't see, what you should and shouldn't do ... and then attempting to enforce those opinions? (Some people just feel the burning need to offer constant commentary on others' lives, but aren't actually controlling, just chatty. That, of course, can also be a deal-breaker, but isn't necessarily controlling.)
Is this person attempting to understand the relationship? Unilaterally passing judgment without understanding? Is there something in their background that makes them particularly uncomfortable with it? The understanding is a two-way street, and when you have a sense of WHY this person disapproves and whether they've tried to hear you, you can decide whether it's something you want to compromise on or whether it's a deal breaker or whether it's an issue of someone being controlling.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:24 PM on January 28, 2010
Given your response, I think what I would be on the watch for is WHY the friend/boyfriend/whomever is making you feel bad FEELS the way they do. People have different levels of personal comfort with all different kinds of relationships. (My mother moved in with us for a couple weeks after the baby arrived to take care of me and the baby -- I loved it. Some people who would be fine with a cousin-masseur would find that WAY over the line, personal-space-wise.) Is this their personal discomfort with that relationship? Is their family different? Are they big-space-bubble people like me who aren't all that comfortable with massage generally? Or is this part of an overall pattern of telling you what you should and shouldn't think, who you should and shouldn't see, what you should and shouldn't do ... and then attempting to enforce those opinions? (Some people just feel the burning need to offer constant commentary on others' lives, but aren't actually controlling, just chatty. That, of course, can also be a deal-breaker, but isn't necessarily controlling.)
Is this person attempting to understand the relationship? Unilaterally passing judgment without understanding? Is there something in their background that makes them particularly uncomfortable with it? The understanding is a two-way street, and when you have a sense of WHY this person disapproves and whether they've tried to hear you, you can decide whether it's something you want to compromise on or whether it's a deal breaker or whether it's an issue of someone being controlling.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:24 PM on January 28, 2010
I think that unfounded jealousy is the responsibility of the jealous person.
I also think this. Jealousy isn't like hunger; you can choose whether to feed it or not to feed it, without risking any specific inevitable harm.
posted by hermitosis at 2:27 PM on January 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
I also think this. Jealousy isn't like hunger; you can choose whether to feed it or not to feed it, without risking any specific inevitable harm.
posted by hermitosis at 2:27 PM on January 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
I would tolerate the jealousy but not a demand to stop receiving professional massage from the massage therapist of my choice.
Being or feeling jealous is one thing. Making demands or expecting behavior change from one's partner is another.
posted by dchrssyr at 2:28 PM on January 28, 2010
Being or feeling jealous is one thing. Making demands or expecting behavior change from one's partner is another.
posted by dchrssyr at 2:28 PM on January 28, 2010
While I was dating a former boyfriend I'll call Pete, he went to his former girlfriend who was a professional masseuse. I can think of boyfriends who I would have been less trusting about this sort of thing but with Pete, I had no problems at all. I never worried about him cheating on me.
This is a classic YMMV question. It depends on both parties in the relationship as well as the masseur/masseuse in question. I can easily think of situations where I'd be jealous and I can also easily think of situations where I'd be being a jerk to be jealous.
It could be a red flag and it could be a rational sort of jealousy.
In the hypothetical situation, I'd probably try to allay jealousy by having the masseur/masseuse give the boyfriend a massage as well.
posted by sciencegeek at 2:29 PM on January 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
This is a classic YMMV question. It depends on both parties in the relationship as well as the masseur/masseuse in question. I can easily think of situations where I'd be jealous and I can also easily think of situations where I'd be being a jerk to be jealous.
It could be a red flag and it could be a rational sort of jealousy.
In the hypothetical situation, I'd probably try to allay jealousy by having the masseur/masseuse give the boyfriend a massage as well.
posted by sciencegeek at 2:29 PM on January 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yeah, there just isn't enough information here. If spiritual healing wiccan massage means something more than just 'massage,' and your cousin's husband is not completely asexual in theoretical boyfriend's eyes, then heck yes, there might be a problem. The habit of spinning such opinions around and claiming at indeed, he is the weak one, trying to bring you down, and this is a red flag, and this is his ego... could be true, but is often too easy to fall into when it isn't.
Also, part of the gender divide that might be important here is that guys are often physical, visual creatures, so events with no meaningful romantic content can still make a guy jealous as all get-out. To be honest, that jealousy isn't unreasonable or ego-driven; it's often a hypothetical boyfriend's accurate guess that another guy is likely enjoying the things about his girlfriend that he wants to keep to himself. Pause before DTMF to consider whether this is the case.
posted by tmcw at 2:34 PM on January 28, 2010
Also, part of the gender divide that might be important here is that guys are often physical, visual creatures, so events with no meaningful romantic content can still make a guy jealous as all get-out. To be honest, that jealousy isn't unreasonable or ego-driven; it's often a hypothetical boyfriend's accurate guess that another guy is likely enjoying the things about his girlfriend that he wants to keep to himself. Pause before DTMF to consider whether this is the case.
posted by tmcw at 2:34 PM on January 28, 2010
Huge red flags. Not the "being squicked by a single person touching the naked SO", but all the other stuff you mention. That's not how this should go down.
IMO, If you're wondering about the line between being controlled and not, it's too close to controlled.
posted by anti social order at 2:36 PM on January 28, 2010
IMO, If you're wondering about the line between being controlled and not, it's too close to controlled.
posted by anti social order at 2:36 PM on January 28, 2010
It might not make guys jealous, but it seems like the perfect opportunity for awkward, uncomfortableness.
posted by blue_beetle at 3:03 PM on January 28, 2010
posted by blue_beetle at 3:03 PM on January 28, 2010
I think we keep losing track of what is hypothetical and what is real here. It seems like the gist of this question is that:
-- people have made the OP feel bad about her decisions, or at least second guess herself;
-- this has made the OP sensitive to situations in which she made be made to feel bad about something she shouldn't have to;
-- she is not in a relationship, but may be one in the future, and is somewhat on guard lest the future BF make her feel bad about something she likes to do;
-- she enjoys getting massages from her wiccan cousin's husband;
-- she wants confirmation that getting those massages is OK, and if a future BF were to get jealous about them and try to make her stop, she would have this thread in the back of her mind and know that she is fully justified in standing up for yourself, because she has had problems with that in the past.
At the end of the day, this doesn't strike me as a question about "is my hypothetical BF too controlling," but rather "is getting a massage from my wiccan cousin's husband weird"? Personally, I have to say yes, I think it's pretty weird, and the hypothetical BF could justifiably be uncomfortable with it. I don't think it's a red flag, much less a huge red flag. This is like getting a bra fitting from your uncle.
Reasonable minds may differ; I'm sure there are people who would be totally fine with it. However, I don't think this is line you want to draw in the sand; it's a pretty gray area as these "controlling BF ZOMG" threads go.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 3:03 PM on January 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
-- people have made the OP feel bad about her decisions, or at least second guess herself;
-- this has made the OP sensitive to situations in which she made be made to feel bad about something she shouldn't have to;
-- she is not in a relationship, but may be one in the future, and is somewhat on guard lest the future BF make her feel bad about something she likes to do;
-- she enjoys getting massages from her wiccan cousin's husband;
-- she wants confirmation that getting those massages is OK, and if a future BF were to get jealous about them and try to make her stop, she would have this thread in the back of her mind and know that she is fully justified in standing up for yourself, because she has had problems with that in the past.
At the end of the day, this doesn't strike me as a question about "is my hypothetical BF too controlling," but rather "is getting a massage from my wiccan cousin's husband weird"? Personally, I have to say yes, I think it's pretty weird, and the hypothetical BF could justifiably be uncomfortable with it. I don't think it's a red flag, much less a huge red flag. This is like getting a bra fitting from your uncle.
Reasonable minds may differ; I'm sure there are people who would be totally fine with it. However, I don't think this is line you want to draw in the sand; it's a pretty gray area as these "controlling BF ZOMG" threads go.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 3:03 PM on January 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't want to get into the habit of worrying that something innocent as a totally non-sexual massage
Worrying about it when the situation is totally hypothetical is just the kind of thing that gets you ni the habit. If someone says they take issue with it in a real situation, you would do well to ask why -- there are few reasons that I can think of that don't fall into the "controlling" bucket, but there are a few:
1: had a personal bad experience at the same location, with the same people;
2: is themselves a trained masseuse and really wants an opportunity to work on you, as practice or to bring you closer.
So I would advise you not worry about hypotheticals, and just focus on hearing your partner when they have a concern, then evaluate their reasoning along with your own to make case-by-case decisions.
posted by davejay at 3:10 PM on January 28, 2010
Worrying about it when the situation is totally hypothetical is just the kind of thing that gets you ni the habit. If someone says they take issue with it in a real situation, you would do well to ask why -- there are few reasons that I can think of that don't fall into the "controlling" bucket, but there are a few:
1: had a personal bad experience at the same location, with the same people;
2: is themselves a trained masseuse and really wants an opportunity to work on you, as practice or to bring you closer.
So I would advise you not worry about hypotheticals, and just focus on hearing your partner when they have a concern, then evaluate their reasoning along with your own to make case-by-case decisions.
posted by davejay at 3:10 PM on January 28, 2010
Yeah, this is a gray area and you can't really predict how Joe Everyboyfriend would react. It'd probably depend a lot on the nature of the massage and what your cousin's husband is like. If he's an unassuming dude and you go to get this wonky sports-injury knot out of your calf, that probably wouldn't raise any eyebrows. If the guy is charming and you have to disrobe and there are oils involved and you make noises that sound suspiciously sexual, then that would pose more of a problem to the average partner.
A few questions that might be worth asking yourself:
Would you feel comfortable letting your (hypothetical future) boyfriend stay in the room and watch while you received your regular massage? Would seeing it happen be likely to reassure him?
Would you be able and willing to get the same service from someone else, where the relationship didn't extend beyond masseuse/client?
Can you spend "positive times with [your] family" without getting a massage?
IANYFuture boyfriend or even a boy, but my personal off-the-cuff thoughts would include the following: does "spiritual healing" involve sex; what are the cousin's and husband's views on monogamy; do you have to get a massage from this guy instead of at a spa or somewhere; eww I wouldn't let any of my cousins give me a massage that's weird; I need to meet this dude before I can decide anything.
But those are just my thoughts. Any guy you date will have different thoughts. And probably the most important indicator of how your relationship will work out is not whether your opinions mesh or clash on this issue, it's whether the both of you can articulate and discuss those opinions with some degree of calmness, reason, and empathy.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:17 PM on January 28, 2010
A few questions that might be worth asking yourself:
Would you feel comfortable letting your (hypothetical future) boyfriend stay in the room and watch while you received your regular massage? Would seeing it happen be likely to reassure him?
Would you be able and willing to get the same service from someone else, where the relationship didn't extend beyond masseuse/client?
Can you spend "positive times with [your] family" without getting a massage?
IANYFuture boyfriend or even a boy, but my personal off-the-cuff thoughts would include the following: does "spiritual healing" involve sex; what are the cousin's and husband's views on monogamy; do you have to get a massage from this guy instead of at a spa or somewhere; eww I wouldn't let any of my cousins give me a massage that's weird; I need to meet this dude before I can decide anything.
But those are just my thoughts. Any guy you date will have different thoughts. And probably the most important indicator of how your relationship will work out is not whether your opinions mesh or clash on this issue, it's whether the both of you can articulate and discuss those opinions with some degree of calmness, reason, and empathy.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:17 PM on January 28, 2010
My husband doesn't like the idea of me getting a massage from a male massuse. I don't have a family member, so I don't know how he'd feel about that. In this instance I just go with it and respect that a male massuse makes him uncomfortable. There are so many really good female massuses that it isn't an issue for me. I understand that some people need a really strong massuse, and sometimes the only way to find that is to go with a male. Lucky for me, I couldn't care less.
I guess you need to decide if it's something you're willing to fight for. If these massages are important to you then your future boyfriend will have to respect that.
In my relationship it isn't that important to me, so I let my husband be overprotective on this one and save the fight for things that mean a lot to me.
posted by TooFewShoes at 3:25 PM on January 28, 2010
I guess you need to decide if it's something you're willing to fight for. If these massages are important to you then your future boyfriend will have to respect that.
In my relationship it isn't that important to me, so I let my husband be overprotective on this one and save the fight for things that mean a lot to me.
posted by TooFewShoes at 3:25 PM on January 28, 2010
I guess I'm feeling out my ideas of jealousy and what's rational especially coming from a significant other.
Well, see, that's where you've gone wrong. Jealousy isn't rational.
The only rational reason for running a closed relationship is that it avoids exposure to diseases, and massage is pretty unlikely to be a factor there.
Feelings, though, are a whole nother story.
Everybody feels jealousy, to some extent, wrt third-party interactions with a significant other. That's part of what makes a significant other significant. There is really nothing that can or should be done about this. What actually matters is what your hypothetical partner is going to do when he feels jealousy.
For me, jealousy (any jealousy) that manifests as overt or even passive-aggressive controlling behavior is a red flag and possible dealbreaker. But that's because I value the ability to disconnect emotion from action, and would personally lose a great deal of self-respect if I responded to my own jealous feelings by attempting to control my partner's freedom. Your values and priorities won't be the same as mine, so this is really policy you need to decide for yourself.
I would advise you, though, to make your policy decisions based on a prospective partner's emotion->action patterns rather than his trigger->emotion patterns - simply because there's a roughly infinite number of possible triggers but only a relatively small number of troublesome emotions. Policy made on an emotion->action basis is therefore both simpler and more robust.
posted by flabdablet at 3:57 PM on January 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
Well, see, that's where you've gone wrong. Jealousy isn't rational.
The only rational reason for running a closed relationship is that it avoids exposure to diseases, and massage is pretty unlikely to be a factor there.
Feelings, though, are a whole nother story.
Everybody feels jealousy, to some extent, wrt third-party interactions with a significant other. That's part of what makes a significant other significant. There is really nothing that can or should be done about this. What actually matters is what your hypothetical partner is going to do when he feels jealousy.
For me, jealousy (any jealousy) that manifests as overt or even passive-aggressive controlling behavior is a red flag and possible dealbreaker. But that's because I value the ability to disconnect emotion from action, and would personally lose a great deal of self-respect if I responded to my own jealous feelings by attempting to control my partner's freedom. Your values and priorities won't be the same as mine, so this is really policy you need to decide for yourself.
I would advise you, though, to make your policy decisions based on a prospective partner's emotion->action patterns rather than his trigger->emotion patterns - simply because there's a roughly infinite number of possible triggers but only a relatively small number of troublesome emotions. Policy made on an emotion->action basis is therefore both simpler and more robust.
posted by flabdablet at 3:57 PM on January 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
The basic rule of thumb is that they person you're dating or with should make you feel good. If they're not making you feel good, it's not worth your time, seriously.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:47 PM on January 28, 2010
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:47 PM on January 28, 2010
If I was your boyfriend...
Here is how you could handle it so that I would accept it: Once you get serious with me, don't get a massage from your cousin's husband until I get to meet him, and see what a completely unthreatening, effeminate, professional person he is. Then you ask me if it's okay, along with a good-natured chiding assurance that of course I have nothing to worry about, because it's him. You also mention, on the low, that he's so timid that he usually won't even fuck your cousin when she's begging for it.
Here is how you could handle it so that I would NOT accept it: Once you get serious with me, tell me that there is a guy who gives you massages, and it had better be okay with me, period, and I'd better decide right away, with no further context, and, by the way, my input and feelings about how I perceive this situation are completely irrelevant.
posted by bingo at 4:48 PM on January 28, 2010
Here is how you could handle it so that I would accept it: Once you get serious with me, don't get a massage from your cousin's husband until I get to meet him, and see what a completely unthreatening, effeminate, professional person he is. Then you ask me if it's okay, along with a good-natured chiding assurance that of course I have nothing to worry about, because it's him. You also mention, on the low, that he's so timid that he usually won't even fuck your cousin when she's begging for it.
Here is how you could handle it so that I would NOT accept it: Once you get serious with me, tell me that there is a guy who gives you massages, and it had better be okay with me, period, and I'd better decide right away, with no further context, and, by the way, my input and feelings about how I perceive this situation are completely irrelevant.
posted by bingo at 4:48 PM on January 28, 2010
Response by poster: Thank you for all the great responses! I've had a relationship before as some here know, where my boyfriend would make me doubt what I did. For example: acting, he didn't like the fact I had to kiss somebody. He told me I should ask the director if there is kissing involved. I knew it was a bad idea to ask the director because I knew the answer. I did, and guess what? The role went to someone else and she gave me a lecture of whether I want to be an actress or not. I was so embarrassed and my boyfriend's jealousy clearly affected me. But he would do that with a lot of other things and then try to offer other alternatives that I could do.
So, I bring this up because this is my family and we are very respectful people. I mention wiccan because it's a whole spiritual process in addition to the massage that a commercial spa can't offer. Nothing sexual whatsoever. Working in the entertainment industry I come very stressed and when I leave there, I'm totally stress free. On top of that, they are great people to be around. No drama. They work in the same industry I do, so we have a total understanding of each other. They are my outlet when I want to just chill but I talk mostly with my cousin. I don't direct anything intimate or personal to her husband.
I've lived with boys all my life so I understand men are always undressing me. Not saying my brothers but you know what I mean. It's what they told me growing up. I've become comfortable with that, thus I'm comfortable around most guys but very conservative when it comes to anything remotely sexual. In knowing that... I become very defensive when I'm told something I shouldn't do or they keep going on about why they are jealous. It feels like I'm not trusted. They say it's not me they don't trust, it's the guy. But all men are revved a certain way... even gays and I'm not naive about their intentions and that makes me feel powerful because I know what lines to never cross. But if my SO is challenging me to stop being comfortable with people who I trust for the most part. That concerns me. And if it's family? Even double a concern. 'Cause that's getting in the way of family.
Yes, emotions are deep but putting on a guilt trip which causes me to thwart my actions, is sort of controlling to me.
posted by InterestedInKnowing at 5:19 PM on January 28, 2010
So, I bring this up because this is my family and we are very respectful people. I mention wiccan because it's a whole spiritual process in addition to the massage that a commercial spa can't offer. Nothing sexual whatsoever. Working in the entertainment industry I come very stressed and when I leave there, I'm totally stress free. On top of that, they are great people to be around. No drama. They work in the same industry I do, so we have a total understanding of each other. They are my outlet when I want to just chill but I talk mostly with my cousin. I don't direct anything intimate or personal to her husband.
I've lived with boys all my life so I understand men are always undressing me. Not saying my brothers but you know what I mean. It's what they told me growing up. I've become comfortable with that, thus I'm comfortable around most guys but very conservative when it comes to anything remotely sexual. In knowing that... I become very defensive when I'm told something I shouldn't do or they keep going on about why they are jealous. It feels like I'm not trusted. They say it's not me they don't trust, it's the guy. But all men are revved a certain way... even gays and I'm not naive about their intentions and that makes me feel powerful because I know what lines to never cross. But if my SO is challenging me to stop being comfortable with people who I trust for the most part. That concerns me. And if it's family? Even double a concern. 'Cause that's getting in the way of family.
Yes, emotions are deep but putting on a guilt trip which causes me to thwart my actions, is sort of controlling to me.
posted by InterestedInKnowing at 5:19 PM on January 28, 2010
As a Therapeutic Massage student, I have been warned that it is frequent for significant others to have a problem with massage. Some students have had to drop the program when their spouses decided half way through that, actually, they are not OK with their sweetie touching other people's naked bodies. A lot of people have a hard time disassociating massage from sexual activities. This is an unfortunate stereotype, but one that can be understood. I agree with people above that say this is a communication thing. Just make sure that while you're communicating, you're holding your ground and standing up for the things that are important to you; like not being told you can't have a professional massage if you want to.
p.s. If you start using the term Massage Therapist instead of masseuse it would help break the stereotype for some people.
posted by purpletangerine at 6:29 PM on January 28, 2010
p.s. If you start using the term Massage Therapist instead of masseuse it would help break the stereotype for some people.
posted by purpletangerine at 6:29 PM on January 28, 2010
I've had a relationship before as some here know, where my boyfriend would make me doubt what I did. For example: acting, he didn't like the fact I had to kiss somebody. He told me I should ask the director if there is kissing involved. I knew it was a bad idea to ask the director because I knew the answer. I did, and guess what? The role went to someone else and she gave me a lecture of whether I want to be an actress or not. I was so embarrassed and my boyfriend's jealousy clearly affected me. But he would do that with a lot of other things and then try to offer other alternatives that I could do.
I think I'm getting a better idea what's at the heart of your question now...
Okay, some people are more jealous than others, yes. Some people have things that they just are hinky about and some aren't. Your ex, though, is waaaaaay over on the "hellaciously extreme" end of the "jealousy" scale, so it's no wonder that you're so confused -- your whole "oooh, how do I respect my boyfriend's sense of jealousy" scale was thrown totally out of wack because he was a NUTBAR. No wonder you're so nervous.
There are a couple things you need to consder, actually -- whether or not something would make a hypothetical boyfriend jealous, but also how you want your hypothetical boyfriend to handle his jealousy. He may not be totally able to avoid some jealous feelings now and then -- but wouldn't it be way better if he handled that by talking to you calmly rather than going into an all-out snit like that? I'm guessing yeah.
So rather than coming up with a plan of attack of "let me figure out now what I'd do if my boyfriend did X, Y, and Z," maybe a better idea would be to try to find someone that's able to talk out ANY kind of problems with you, whenever they come up, so if he DOES get a little jealous about something he can still handle it like a grownup and not make you give something up that you really like.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:52 PM on January 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think I'm getting a better idea what's at the heart of your question now...
Okay, some people are more jealous than others, yes. Some people have things that they just are hinky about and some aren't. Your ex, though, is waaaaaay over on the "hellaciously extreme" end of the "jealousy" scale, so it's no wonder that you're so confused -- your whole "oooh, how do I respect my boyfriend's sense of jealousy" scale was thrown totally out of wack because he was a NUTBAR. No wonder you're so nervous.
There are a couple things you need to consder, actually -- whether or not something would make a hypothetical boyfriend jealous, but also how you want your hypothetical boyfriend to handle his jealousy. He may not be totally able to avoid some jealous feelings now and then -- but wouldn't it be way better if he handled that by talking to you calmly rather than going into an all-out snit like that? I'm guessing yeah.
So rather than coming up with a plan of attack of "let me figure out now what I'd do if my boyfriend did X, Y, and Z," maybe a better idea would be to try to find someone that's able to talk out ANY kind of problems with you, whenever they come up, so if he DOES get a little jealous about something he can still handle it like a grownup and not make you give something up that you really like.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:52 PM on January 28, 2010 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Yes.
But I'm a little confused about such a highly-specific hypothetical relationship question. Is this an example that you're throwing out there to help assess whether or not your ideas about jealousy are logical, or are you concerned about the general appearance of getting a massage from someone you consider family?
posted by desuetude at 1:47 PM on January 28, 2010