Fonts Nerds--ASSEMBLE!
December 28, 2009 8:24 AM Subscribe
Several questions related to "old style" or "non-lining" numerals aka "text figures".
A coworker of mine uses old style numerals in handwriting. This led to an on-going discussion, which has included looking at the page numbers of various book styles (old vs new, technological vs literature, etc) and eventually to computer fonts. Along the way we've had several questions.
Question #1: In physical books, it looks the current (which may be as old as 100 years) standard is: Lining figures for math-y and/or cheap stuff, non-lining for lit-rah-chure. Is that right?
Question #2: Some fonts seem to include both lining and non-lining numerals. On an old style typewriter how was one supposed to indicate which was desired? Did it used to be the shift key before the !@#$ stuff was put up there? Or did typewriters only support either lining or non-lining, but not both?
Question #2b: What about modern typewriters/keyboards?
Question #3: Both of us are interested in setting our computer fonts (in the terminal and the browser, say) to be non-lining. The Wikipedia link mentions some fonts that support non-lining numerals, but the ones that were available on Linux are kind of hard to read (in the browser) or badly spaced (in the terminal). Recommendations for other fonts or techniques for fixing this? (btw, the MeFi style.css has the date headers set to Georgia, which is lining. Unfortunately Georgia is one of the unreadable-to-me-in-mass-text ones.)
A coworker of mine uses old style numerals in handwriting. This led to an on-going discussion, which has included looking at the page numbers of various book styles (old vs new, technological vs literature, etc) and eventually to computer fonts. Along the way we've had several questions.
Question #1: In physical books, it looks the current (which may be as old as 100 years) standard is: Lining figures for math-y and/or cheap stuff, non-lining for lit-rah-chure. Is that right?
Question #2: Some fonts seem to include both lining and non-lining numerals. On an old style typewriter how was one supposed to indicate which was desired? Did it used to be the shift key before the !@#$ stuff was put up there? Or did typewriters only support either lining or non-lining, but not both?
Question #2b: What about modern typewriters/keyboards?
Question #3: Both of us are interested in setting our computer fonts (in the terminal and the browser, say) to be non-lining. The Wikipedia link mentions some fonts that support non-lining numerals, but the ones that were available on Linux are kind of hard to read (in the browser) or badly spaced (in the terminal). Recommendations for other fonts or techniques for fixing this? (btw, the MeFi style.css has the date headers set to Georgia, which is lining. Unfortunately Georgia is one of the unreadable-to-me-in-mass-text ones.)
Response by poster: ...would not work in e.g. a phone book or a financial page.
...when I want to get your phone number in a hurry or look at a list of prices, it's got to be lining.
My coworker makes the exact opposite argument, though. He says that in a big pile of numbers, pre-filtering them by shape helps a lot. HIS COMPARISON IS TO THE DIFFICULTY IN PARSING ALL CAPS ESPECIALLY IN A BIG PARAGRAPH BLOCK.
posted by DU at 8:58 AM on December 28, 2009
...when I want to get your phone number in a hurry or look at a list of prices, it's got to be lining.
My coworker makes the exact opposite argument, though. He says that in a big pile of numbers, pre-filtering them by shape helps a lot. HIS COMPARISON IS TO THE DIFFICULTY IN PARSING ALL CAPS ESPECIALLY IN A BIG PARAGRAPH BLOCK.
posted by DU at 8:58 AM on December 28, 2009
He says that in a big pile of numbers, pre-filtering them by shape helps a lot. HIS COMPARISON IS TO THE DIFFICULTY IN PARSING ALL CAPS ESPECIALLY IN A BIG PARAGRAPH BLOCK.
It will require increasing the leading, which will cost a lot of space. After that, he might have a point. But in the phone book or a financial page this isn't worthwhile.
posted by kidbritish at 9:03 AM on December 28, 2009
It will require increasing the leading, which will cost a lot of space. After that, he might have a point. But in the phone book or a financial page this isn't worthwhile.
posted by kidbritish at 9:03 AM on December 28, 2009
1. Yes, basically. Non-lining numerals tend to be used in writing (it looks better next to all those lowercase letters); lined numerals are for tabulation and kid's stuff and price tags.
2. The typesetter would know by the context. (See 1.)
2b. Keyboards use lined numerals for the same reason they use capital letters: They all line up neatly and fit on the keys and are easy to read and blah.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:07 AM on December 28, 2009
2. The typesetter would know by the context. (See 1.)
2b. Keyboards use lined numerals for the same reason they use capital letters: They all line up neatly and fit on the keys and are easy to read and blah.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:07 AM on December 28, 2009
Response by poster: I've tried a couple different non-lined fonts in my MeFi prefs and they all look like ass. I just now realized why: They are all serifed. I'm probably not going to find a sans serif, non-lined font...
Keyboards use lined numerals for the same reason they use capital letters: They all line up neatly and fit on the keys and are easy to read and blah.
I don't mean the printing on the keyboard. I mean how do you use the keyboard to tell the computer "I want this 3 to have a descender" vs "I don't want this 3 to have a descender"? For letters, we use the shift key.
I discovered that LaTeX has a way to set options for different contexts (i.e. use lining in tables, use non-lining in paragraphs). Maybe that's the answer: It depends on the software, which is another way of saying there is no way to "type" this information as one would normally construe that word.
posted by DU at 9:15 AM on December 28, 2009
Keyboards use lined numerals for the same reason they use capital letters: They all line up neatly and fit on the keys and are easy to read and blah.
I don't mean the printing on the keyboard. I mean how do you use the keyboard to tell the computer "I want this 3 to have a descender" vs "I don't want this 3 to have a descender"? For letters, we use the shift key.
I discovered that LaTeX has a way to set options for different contexts (i.e. use lining in tables, use non-lining in paragraphs). Maybe that's the answer: It depends on the software, which is another way of saying there is no way to "type" this information as one would normally construe that word.
posted by DU at 9:15 AM on December 28, 2009
Here is a quick comparison of lining vs. non-lining, comparing Georgia (which has old-style figures) and Verdana, although any others would behave similarly. Same point size and setting, typical of a listing of any kind. It's no use to shout in all caps: the situation is not the same. The aesthetic of old-style numbers comes from making them vary and kern more like upper and lower case letters but this means they do not line up. You can't scan them vertically at all and a phone book (financial page, train schedule, etc.) set like this would be utterly chaotic.
posted by zadcat at 9:17 AM on December 28, 2009
posted by zadcat at 9:17 AM on December 28, 2009
There are a lot of sans-serif old-style fonts. It's been the fashion in recent years to consider a commercially available font incomplete unless it has both. Try fonts.com.
You do not use the keyboard to "tell the computer" to specify oldstyle versus lining numbers. You choose the font. The font will use whichever number set it has when you use the ordinary number row.
posted by zadcat at 9:20 AM on December 28, 2009
You do not use the keyboard to "tell the computer" to specify oldstyle versus lining numbers. You choose the font. The font will use whichever number set it has when you use the ordinary number row.
posted by zadcat at 9:20 AM on December 28, 2009
Response by poster: I don't have any trouble reading the Georgia version here, while once it's been pointed out I definitely do see the potential ALL CAPS DIFFICULTY in the Verdana version.
...a commercially available font incomplete unless it has both.
...
The font will use whichever number set it has when you use the ordinary number row.
And if it has both, which is used?
posted by DU at 9:28 AM on December 28, 2009
...a commercially available font incomplete unless it has both.
...
The font will use whichever number set it has when you use the ordinary number row.
And if it has both, which is used?
posted by DU at 9:28 AM on December 28, 2009
It really surprises me that you find Georgia hard to read. It's personally my go-to font for sites with lots of text; I've set metafilter, wikipedia, and a number of blogs to Georgia through preferences or the Stylish extension or the browser's default font configuration. I admit that when I first started doing that it took a day or two for it to sink in, but after that it just felt like the font that was easier to read than all the rest. Maybe you haven't fully committed to it?
posted by Rhomboid at 9:30 AM on December 28, 2009
posted by Rhomboid at 9:30 AM on December 28, 2009
I'm probably not going to find a sans serif, non-lined font...
Here's a discussion regarding sans serif fonts with old-style figures.
posted by kidbritish at 9:32 AM on December 28, 2009
Here's a discussion regarding sans serif fonts with old-style figures.
posted by kidbritish at 9:32 AM on December 28, 2009
>: Did it used to be the shift key before the !@#$ stuff was put up there?
No. I have five (5!) old typewriters, even the oldest has the !@#$ up there, although the older ones don't have a 1 key (you use lowercase L instead.)
posted by dunkadunc at 9:53 AM on December 28, 2009
No. I have five (5!) old typewriters, even the oldest has the !@#$ up there, although the older ones don't have a 1 key (you use lowercase L instead.)
posted by dunkadunc at 9:53 AM on December 28, 2009
I don't know how much more clearly I can put this. You can have roman, italic, bold variants of a font, right? You can also have things labelled expert, alternative or whatever. There are no hard and fast rules about how font variants are named. You have to try the various options to see which number set is where.
posted by zadcat at 10:04 AM on December 28, 2009
posted by zadcat at 10:04 AM on December 28, 2009
Response by poster: Oh so the lining vs non-lining would be variants of the font. I guess that makes some sense. Although that means I'd have to have my tables and paragraphs in different variants, but I likely have alrady done that (i.e. bold tables or whatever).
posted by DU at 10:20 AM on December 28, 2009
posted by DU at 10:20 AM on December 28, 2009
If you're using an OpenType font, and InDesign CS4, here's instructions. If you're using different software, consult the documentation for the software you're using.
posted by kidbritish at 10:33 AM on December 28, 2009
posted by kidbritish at 10:33 AM on December 28, 2009
In fonts with non-lining numerals—and using Adobe layout software, and probably others—setting the numbers to "All Caps" gives you lining numerals.
posted by wemayfreeze at 12:17 PM on December 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by wemayfreeze at 12:17 PM on December 28, 2009 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
As far as I am aware, in old typewriters there were no old-style numbers. You didn't even have a number 1 on many of them, and used a lower-case L instead. But old-style typewriters were monospace by nature so it wasn't a concern.
Today it's not a question of keyboards but of choosing the correct font for the correct purpose. Some fonts come with one or the other, more complete fonts will have both, putting the old-style numbers into an expert set or the like. There are no hard and fast rules for this.
In general on a computer screen you really want the lining numerals. They are much more legible and they are necessary if you're conveying information. Old-style is pretty on a letterhead but when I want to get your phone number in a hurry or look at a list of prices, it's got to be lining.
posted by zadcat at 8:49 AM on December 28, 2009