I don't want to cuddle my pepperspray all night.
November 17, 2009 7:46 PM   Subscribe

I need to go to a professional conference in New York City at the end of December. I'll be going alone. Where can I find a cheap, safe hotel?

I've never been to NYC, and, really, I know more about the city through episodes of Law & Order more than anything else. I really don't want to end up staying in a bad part of town, or a sketchy part of town, but I also really need to find a really cheap hotel. And even though I already know that nothing bad would probably happen to me in sketchy areas, what I want is to feel safe while there. I don't care about size of the room, I don't care about any amenities at all (except internet access would be nice), mostly I just want a place where I can sleep without freaking myself out about being alone in a hotel in a giant, unfamiliar city. So I have some questions that someone more familiar with the town might be able to help with:

1) The hostels (Chocolat Hotel and Hostel, Candy Hostel, etc) look like really good deals, but I don't know anything about them. Does anyone have experience with them, able to tell me if they're good environments?

2) What general areas should I be looking at? I mean, I know the names ("SoHo," "Upper West Side," etc), but I know nothing about what types of neighborhoods those are. Where can I find something cheap, and what areas should I avoid (as being too shady)?

3) What can I expect from a hotel room with a shared bathroom? This whole concept is completely unfamiliar to me -- I've never had a shared bathroom in a hotel. I'm not against it, in theory, but I'd just like to know what to expect. Will I likely have to interact with anyone? Is it the sort of thing that often leads to frustration (the bathroom constantly being used, no hot water when you need it, etc), or is it really not a big deal?

4) Is there anything else I should know?

Thanks for any help you can provide. I looked through all the previous Ask.Me threads about NYC hotels, but: A) only one of them addressed the safety aspect, and it's three years old; B) most of the hotels that answers claimed were available for less than $200 are showing up in Expedia for way more than that.

Also, there's a chance I'll have to cancel my trip, so please don't suggest any discount webpages or anything where cancellations aren't accepted.

Again, thanks!
posted by Ms. Saint to Travel & Transportation around New York, NY (47 answers total) 9 users marked this as a favorite
Hostels in NYC aren't recommended unless you're in college or your early 20s.

As for cheap--it doesn't really exist in NYC--at least anywhere that meets your criteria of safe and non-sketchy.

I would just book a room in one of the large hotels in midtown Manhattan.
posted by dfriedman at 7:53 PM on November 17, 2009

It would be nice to have a better sense of what cheap means to you in this case. There's a huge difference between "less than $200" a night and, say, $30/night. Also, where is the conference being held, and how important is it to you to be nearby (do you mind riding the subway to get to/from the conference venue)?

Finally, NYC isn't nearly as dangerous as Law & Order would have you believe. It is a cop show, after all, and what would a cop show be without crimes?
posted by zachlipton at 7:56 PM on November 17, 2009

What part of New York City is your conference in, and how long will you be in town?

I ask this because it'll help figure out two things: 1) how much you may find yourself spending on taxis if you go to a significantly different part of town, and 2) the closeness to a subway line, which may help.

Shared bathrooms can be a little odd - I don't like them, myself, but I know a friend who came from Scotland to visit NYC and thought it was charming. Running out of hot water, he said, was not a problem.

Another option, if you're close to a major subway line, might be not in Manhattan itself, but in some other areas. For example, you might do well in Jersey City in the Newport Center area - a number of hotels are there and you have access to the PATH which would take you to a number of areas you could then pick up other transportation from.
posted by mephron at 7:57 PM on November 17, 2009

It might be helpful if you give the general area of the conference (or at least the borough-- I'm guessing Manhattan?). Like you say, New York's a big place, even if the subway's fast, and you'll probably want to have a transit time of less than an hour.

And don't worry too much about crime, no matter where you end up. If you're really paranoid (which is fair enough if you're unfamiliar with the city), you'll probably want to stay south of 125th St or so-- but really, stay out of dark alleys, don't wave flashy electronics around, don't get really drunk and wander around, and you'll be just fine.

One thing that you'll probably want is a pocket map, preferably one that includes a subway map. The grid system is really logical, but is hard to get used to if you don't have an innate sense of direction.
posted by oinopaponton at 7:57 PM on November 17, 2009

What city are you coming from? Chances are the crime rates are pretty similar.
For instance, I just plugged my city, Portland, into this little comparison tool, and Portland has more crime in almost all areas except murder and robbery, and in those cases it's not like New York is exponentially more dangerous. (Although that's going to be averaged out over all of NYC, so it stands to reason the shady parts are going to be worse than this. But still.)
posted by floam at 8:01 PM on November 17, 2009

I can only speak to 3. I think the shared bathroom thing is not a big deal, and I am not an enthusiastic user of public restrooms at the best of times. You don't usually have to interact with anyone. In the case of bathrooms down the hall, if the door's closed, then someone's in there, and you come back later. Generally you try not to take up too much time. Sometimes rooms will have a sink, so you can at least brush teeth and stuff in the room.

I've seen a variety of showering setups and situations with shared bathrooms (mainly in Europe) and sometimes it seems impossible to avoid getting water everywhere. So, there's always a chance of a wet floor. So if you are really squicked out by that possibility, then bring some flip flops.
posted by cabingirl at 8:02 PM on November 17, 2009

I stayed in a near Union Square on 14th street and at another one off of Times Square. Neither of those places seemed unsafe to me.
But personally if feeling safe were my objective (and it would be) I would focus on staying as close to the venue as possible. I wouldn't make myself get on a train and go all the way out to new jersey or brooklyn, or stay in a place with shared bathrooms, unless I was really incredibly broke.
posted by amethysts at 8:03 PM on November 17, 2009

Sorry, I should have realized those would be important:

The conference is right around the corner of 46th Street and 7th Avenue. I'm okay with a bit of distance. Of course, I'd prefer as close as possible, but proximity can suffer for the sake of cost. (I wasn't familiar with PATH and am looking into that now. It seems like, if I had to stay at the conference until, say, 6 or 7pm, it might make me feel a little weird..)

Ideally, I would like the hotel to be under $200, but I really would like it to go as low as possible. The lowest I've seen (outside of hostels) is $109 per night. That sounds great to me, but that just sounds a little too cheap for a city like NYC.

I'll be there for 4 nights, probably.
posted by Ms. Saint at 8:07 PM on November 17, 2009

One word: bedbugs

What do I do to avoid them? Ask the concierge when I reserve a room about what bed covers are used? Something else?
posted by Ms. Saint at 8:08 PM on November 17, 2009

I never had anything but good experiences at the Hostelling International. Spacious, clean, lots of cool young people on holiday from Europe, fun vibe. You'll never beat $26 dollars a night...good times!
posted by aquafortis at 8:09 PM on November 17, 2009

Given the apparent nervousness you have about visiting NYC I would advise that you want a hotel right near your conference venue. Please don't take offense at this statement; it's just an honest assessment.

Luckily enough, there are many literally right around the corner: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=hotels&mrt=all&sll=40.761853,-73.984637&sspn=0.007785,0.01929&ie=UTF8&hq=hotels&hnear=&t=h&z=16

The most important point: this is an EXTREMELY safe area, as it is fully policed, thousands of tourists pass through at all hours, etc.

As to bedbugs: ignore that comment.

You're getting yourself worked up over nothing.
posted by dfriedman at 8:12 PM on November 17, 2009 [5 favorites]

Ideally, I would like the hotel to be under $200, but I really would like it to go as low as possible. The lowest I've seen (outside of hostels) is $109 per night. That sounds great to me, but that just sounds a little too cheap for a city like NYC.

I stayed at the Paramount at Times Square earlier this year, for just about that much per night. I was surprised at the low rate and worried about it turning out to be a hole, but it was actually perfectly fine—my only gripe was an AC unit that was underperforming on what was a pretty goddam warm couple of nights.
posted by cortex at 8:14 PM on November 17, 2009

That's around what I paid last time I stayed in nyc and the hotels/areas were just fine. I think I paid something around that through hotwire.com to stay at a 4 star hotel near the United Nations. But it sounds like your question should be "These are the hotels I'm looking at, are these bad areas?"
posted by amethysts at 8:15 PM on November 17, 2009

At that location, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to stay in Brooklyn off the L line (in hip, safe Williamsburg). This swank hotel looks like it has rooms starting in the $160-$180 range.
posted by oinopaponton at 8:16 PM on November 17, 2009

What general areas should I be looking at? I mean, I know the names ("SoHo," "Upper West Side," etc), but I know nothing about what types of neighborhoods those are.

Anything in Manhattan south of 96th St. or so would be good. (Just saw your location: yeah, look for a hotel near the conference.) I would worry less about specific neighborhoods and more about the conditions of the hotel. For instance, there are hotels that charge only by the hour -- that's a terrible sign. When you're considering a hotel, Google the Yelp page (search for the hotel name + nyc + yelp) -- if there's a major problem, you can often find a one- or two-star review pointing it out.

This whole concept is completely unfamiliar to me -- I've never had a shared bathroom in a hotel. Will I likely have to interact with anyone?

It's like having to use a one-person public restroom instead of having the bathroom in your private room. You walk down the hall to get to it. One floor might have 4 bathrooms; usually you don't need to spend much time waiting, but that's always a possibility. It doesn't involve interacting with anyone. There shouldn't be any hot water issue. You need to bring all your things from your room down the hallway to the bathroom (e.g. whatever you need to show), which is a hassle. The standard hotel soaps and shampoos might be in your private room, or there might be liquid soap/shampoo dispensers in the shared bathrooms.

It's common but not universal to have a sink (with mirror) in your private room in addition to the shared bathroom. This is a great amenity since it lets you spend much less time using the shared bathrooms. You might want to call or look at the website to see if your room has this.

And I wouldn't worry too much about the city itself. You know that it's one of the safest big American cities, right? My girlfriend and I live in Albany, NY (population 100,000), and we both agree that we feel much safer when we're visiting NYC because it's so much bigger and brighter and more heavily populated. The NYC that exists today is, fortunately, a less interesting subject for TV shows or movies than the NYC of 20 or 30 years ago.

What would scare me the most is bedbugs. Actually, I shouldn't say that, since they're not fatal or anything -- they're just really irritating (literally and mentally). So, when you get to your room, untuck the outer bed sheets and quickly eyeball the bed to see if there are any critters the size of apple seeds (or tiny blood splotches from when someone might have killed 'em on the bed). If you see any bedbugs, you should ask to be moved to a different room. If you want to take some precautions, you could try keeping your luggage and other possessions above the floor (e.g. on a dresser) and enclosed. You could choose the classiest hotel in the city and it would be no safeguard against them; the only way to totally avoid bedbugs is to not go to NYC.
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:23 PM on November 17, 2009

Don't worry about New York's safety. It's fine. People overblow it - especially TV. IT's nothing like it was 20-30 years ago, and nothing like its reputation.

My mom stays in the city for business and social reasons on occasion and loves the Hotel Edison, often well under $200. It's where the Beatles stayed on their 1964 trip!
posted by Miko at 8:24 PM on November 17, 2009 [1 favorite]

Hotel 41 is located on 41st and 7th. The neighborhood is not lovely -- I worked there for many years and my office was conveniently located near the parole office and not one but TWO methadone clinics. That said, the hotel looked really nice. Yelp seems to agree.

When I idly looked at a room rate, it looked like it was $189 per night. A good deal. Seriously, you probably don't want to go much lower than that, unless you like hanging out with protected witnesses and sequestered juries. (You do not.)
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 8:24 PM on November 17, 2009 [1 favorite]

Late December is really pricey--the holidays in New York are lovely. And packed with visitors! The New Years Eve crowd, the people who want to see the tree and all the Christmas lights...I can't wait, the city is so beautiful!

The Chelsea International Hostel is, like, three feet away from a police station in a decently safe area (called Chelsea). I live about a block away. It's also near Cafe Grumpy, so you can get some grumpy NY attitude with your awesome morning coffee.

Those reviews will give you an idea of the experience. It's not a hotel, it's more like a college dorm.

Easy walking distance to the 1 train, which will take you to Times Square and your conference. Also walking distance to the 2, 3, A, C, E, F, V, and L trains.

Check out vacation rentals on Craigslist, too. Some people rent their apartments for a week or whatever to make a little extra cash.

You will be totally fine. It is safe here. If you want, we'll even throw a meetup and welcome you to the city.
posted by kathrineg at 8:24 PM on November 17, 2009

(e.g. whatever you need to show),

to shower

(Edit feature please, mods!)
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:24 PM on November 17, 2009

The Pod.
posted by cazoo at 8:26 PM on November 17, 2009 [2 favorites]

Hotel 41 prices for every day in December.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 8:26 PM on November 17, 2009

Honestly, if you are concerned enough about the safety in NYC (which you really need not be, but I've generally found it fruitless to try to talk people out of this), you should be staying at a regular, grown up hotel near your conference. Don't go to a hostel, don't share a bathroom. Don't commute from New Jersey via PATH. I don't think you'll find any of those options worth the enormous tradeoffs.

Just go to the Sheraton, or something similar (that Sheraton is not particularly posh). I made up some dates, and the reservation thingy said $195 plus tax. I think that's par for the course for a quality hotel in NY at the time of year you're contemplating.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 8:33 PM on November 17, 2009 [1 favorite]

Miko, the Beatles were at the Plaza when they first came to NY...the Maysles filmed them for British TV.

NO place is truly safe; I was staying at a top-end hotel when a guest was murdered by one of their employees.
posted by brujita at 8:38 PM on November 17, 2009 [1 favorite]

Sidestep.com finds about 20 hotels under $200 (including a bunch under $150) all over Midtown. If you watch it closely, I bet you can find some around $100. There are Best Westerns and Comfort Inns and Ramadas on the list: all nice, safe, clean choices.

Stop worrying about safety. Or bedbugs. You'll be fine.
posted by rokusan at 8:43 PM on November 17, 2009 [2 favorites]

No place in the country is truly safe when it comes down to that kind of thing. But having traveled a lot in the US, New York City is one of the safest cities I've ever been in.

I made a mistake: I was thinking of the Warwick hotel, not the Edison. It looks like they did stay at the Plaza in 1964 for their first Shea concert but the Warwick thereafter.

Anyway, the Edison is simple, cheap, decent, and amid a lot of transportation options and tourist attractions (and police).
posted by Miko at 8:49 PM on November 17, 2009

Last time I was there for a conference I stayed at Off Soho Suites - looks like you can get a suite there for 160 or so.
posted by media_itoku at 9:16 PM on November 17, 2009 [1 favorite]

I visited New York a few weeks ago and used Priceline's name-your-own-price option to get a room at the 3* Ramada Plaza New Yorker for $135 per night (plus $30 in taxes per night). Explaining how to bid effectively is way more complicated than I want to go into right now, but you can at least try to beat your best other option.
posted by grouse at 9:19 PM on November 17, 2009 [1 favorite]

I stayed at the YMCA near grand central (couple of blocks walk - 5 mins), tiny room, shared bathroom, but location was great, and I only slept there anyway, too much to see/do. $75/night or so IIRC.
posted by defcom1 at 9:19 PM on November 17, 2009

This may be a little out of the way for someone who hasn't been to New York, but what about one of the chain hotels in Long Island City? If you look for something near Queens Boulevard you should be able to catch the 7 train. It's a safe area and it's really fast to midtown. There's a Days Inn at 3136 Queens Blvd from $75/night.
posted by Jeanne at 9:38 PM on November 17, 2009

Honestly, if you are concerned enough about the safety in NYC... you should be staying at a regular, grown up hotel near your conference.

Speaking as someone who occasionally has to stay in NYC for conferences, I would second this. Staying far from your conference ups the daily logistics hassle factor by a huge amount, unless you're someone who is really comfortable and happy navigating strange, large, busy public transit systems. It's a big city. New Yorkers get accustomed to taking four different trains, racing through confusing stations to the next subway line, knowing when the different trains stop running, and walking miles in a day. Coming from another place, I'm never used to these things and I'm always exhausted when I visit New York with friends because we spend most of each day traveling by one means or another. If the weather sucks, or if there are late-night events at the conference that you want to stay for, you will be facing unhappy tradeoffs and probably cab fare.

Even disregarding safety, I would eat extra costs to stay near the conference.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:21 PM on November 17, 2009

More murders have been reported in Law and Order than have taken place in New York. Seriously. It's one of the safest cities in the U.S. You can stay pretty much anywhere.

In fact, I recommend looking at hotels on Avenue C. Ten years ago this street was a drug den, but now you can hardly afford to eat at any of the restaurants there. It's rep was so bad that some people still avoid it, but I can't overstate how safe you will be there. First of all, you will never be on that street anywhere near alone at any time. You can go out at 2 am and walk amongst crowds of people. Seriously, how many of these places can you afford? http://www.yelp.com/list/nyc-a-tour-down-ave-c-new-york

Go cheap, and as long as you're in Manhattan proper don't worry about safety. I would almost recommend staying outside Manhattan to be ultra-cheap, except you would miss out on staying in New York, it would be a real hassle, and I doubt after train / cab expenses you would save money. The YMCA and Hostels are to be avoided, unless you are desperate. Some of the places listed in the link below are $80 a night.

posted by xammerboy at 10:41 PM on November 17, 2009

Yep, The Pod Hotel.
posted by nicwolff at 10:41 PM on November 17, 2009

On re-reading, if you are finding rooms at $109 and are comfortable with that I would take it. What rooms did you find? Then we can tell you more about that neighborhood. If it was "SoHo" or the "Upper West Side", well, those are amongst the best known, safest, neighborhoods in the world.
posted by xammerboy at 10:47 PM on November 17, 2009

It's kind of a ridiculously obvious recommendation, but I've stayed at the Milford Plaza (at 44th and 8th) a couple times, and never felt the least bit sketched out. Generally, prices are in the $150 range (at least they were when I was looking to visit in August), but just looking at it now on hotels.com, it looks like they're going for just under $200 at the end of December. I couldn't get anything to show up using their own reservation site. The place is nothing special, just a basic hotel.
posted by LionIndex at 10:54 PM on November 17, 2009 [1 favorite]

I agree with the sentiment that you should shack up in the Times Square area to avoid the hassle of mass transit. Although I would seriously reconsider that if you're going to be in the city during New Year's Eve.

Finding a hotel that will make you feel safe may not happen, regardless of price. If you're unused to the city, then everything is going to look battered and crowded and hodgepodge to you, throwing off your ability of how to gauge what is actually dangerous and what is normal in this environment. You really don't have to worry about your safety more than usual, but your instincts will probably say otherwise. Being aware of this conundrum ahead of time will help you overcome it more quickly, though.

Times Square area hotels: I like the style of the Edison, myself. The Paramount is a good suggestion. Milford Plaza is fine. The Marriot in Times Square is pretty trippy, if you can afford it. Actually, the only one I'd avoid is the Hotel Carter.
posted by greenland at 11:06 PM on November 17, 2009

My default cheap hotel in Manhattan is the Larchmont on W. 11th St.

Situated in pretty much the heart of Greenwich Village, on a quiet, downright bucolic block, stellar local amenities and lots of transit options within a two-minute stroll. Single rooms are the size of a suburban walk-in closet at best, but they're sub-$100, clean and well-maintained. Clientele tends toward quiet budget-conscious Europeans. Never once even bumped into anyone in the hallway en route to and from the bathroom.

The immediate neighbourhood's as safe as any American urban space I've spent time in, from college towns to big metropolises. Seriously - a friend of mine's brother is a cop on the West Village beat, and it's considered the among the slackest of slack NYPD assignments. Only thing bad that's happened on W. 11th is the Weather Underground accidentally blew up a townhouse up the block, and that was in 1970.
posted by gompa at 11:43 PM on November 17, 2009 [1 favorite]

The Jane seems to have single rooms with shared bathrooms (one per floor) for $99, not including taxes and fees.

Aside: there seems to be a huge gap in the hotel market in New York, with few to no hotel rooms in the $50-$100 range. Even in Tokyo you can find plenty of safe, clean, centrally-located hotels (albeit with rooms in the 10-15 sq. m. range) for $50 or so. Unless there's a huge difference in fixed costs between New York and Tokyo, there's a killing to be made targeting this market.
posted by armage at 11:48 PM on November 17, 2009

I stayed at the Big Apple Hostel last year (and will again this year) and loved it: clean, safe, great location. It happens to be right around the corner from your conference location and a single room with queen bed is $125/night.
posted by goodnight moon at 12:23 AM on November 18, 2009

My default "cheap" hotel is actually on the Upper West Side - the Milburn. It is at the upper end of your price range, though they sometimes have specials, and is by no means luxurious, but the neighborhood is really great, with lots of restaurants, and it is a fairly quick subway ride to Midtown.
posted by gudrun at 4:07 AM on November 18, 2009

You express concern about being at the conference till 6 or 7, but do bear in mind that this is still considered evening rush for transit, and there will be lots of people on the trains and buses and walking the streets. New York is not like any other city in the U.S., in that the sidewalks are rolled up after 5. Seriously, I know it is just one stranger's opinion, but I've lived here a long while, and New York has never been safer.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 5:06 AM on November 18, 2009

Any hotel in any area will be, by any objective measure, ridiculously safe. Your common sense will get you though fine. Don't worry, have a great time, and try to see some of the city when you're not at the conference.
posted by turkeyphant at 5:40 AM on November 18, 2009

Stay near the conference and pay a little more. This will give you a chance to network with other conference attendees, maybe find someone to go to touristy things with you during down time, and you'll be able to sleep in a little more if you can walk to it. Public transit takes some time. Seconding not staying at The Carter - it's cheap for all the things you want to avoid. NYC is an extremely safe city - impressively safe.
posted by dog food sugar at 5:48 AM on November 18, 2009

Thanks, folks. I'm going to be pouring over the suggestions carefully now, but a lot of them seem really good. A lot of them are also suggestions I wasn't finding on my own through traveling sites, so you guys have definitely been helpful.

I was never thinking I'd, say, get off the plane and immediately be mugged. It's just that the only big city I'm really familiar with is San Francisco, where, if you walk a few blocks in one direction, you can end up in a ritzy, well-to-do place, but if you walk a few blocks in the other direction, you're suddenly hanging out with dozens of crackheads. I was worried that getting a hotel a few blocks away from the conference could also imply that much of a difference in neighborhoods, as well. Now I know!
posted by Ms. Saint at 6:22 AM on November 18, 2009

I've stayed in a lot of shared-bath B&Bs and inns, though not in NYC. The first time, I had the typical snap judgment of thinking it would be weird, but I couldn't beat the price. Turns out I really don't mind it a bit. After all, I have to walk down the hall to the bathroom in my own house, too. Most places with shared baths have separate showers and toilets, and have plenty. I don't think I've ever had to wait for someone to finish.

Europeans in general do not seem to share the American squeamishness for shared-bath hotels, so I met lots of nice people visiting from all over the world. Perhaps it's a combination of confirmation bias and self-selection, but I feel like the level of courtesy among fellow guests was a lot higher at this sort of hotel.

Adding to the chorus that NYC is much safer than its reputation would suggest, and that it's unlikely that you'll wander into a rough neighborhood (are there any left?) If you don't wind up staying very close to the conference, I'd also advise staying someplace where public transportation can get you there in a straight shot.
posted by desuetude at 6:56 AM on November 18, 2009

if you walk a few blocks in one direction, you can end up in a ritzy, well-to-do place, but if you walk a few blocks in the other direction, you're suddenly hanging out with dozens of crackheads.

Yeah, having just visited San Francisco not too long ago, I was struck by that. New York used to be like that, but it isn't any more - especially not in Midtown. The price pressures and the city's big tourism-cleanup efforts have essentially eradicated any neighborhoods south of the top of Central Park that you might've once called "rough." You'll find it feels much different from SF. Of course, always keep your wits about you in a big city; but you're likely to find it feels very comfortable by comparison.
posted by Miko at 7:35 AM on November 18, 2009

As someone who works in New York and lives in New Jersey, yes, it's a very different kind of area from San Francisco. I loathe Giuliani, but I have to grudgingly admit that there's a tremendous difference now in the area. You can still get random crime, but the area you're in, which is just barely south of Times Square, is still part of the great showcase.

You may want to contact the organizers of the conference - they may have hotel room blocks set aside in some of the hotels for attendees.

Also, cabs can be a little pricey but are an alternative to the subway if you feel uncertain.
posted by mephron at 8:17 AM on November 18, 2009

This Comfort Inn just opened up around the corner from my office and a very short walk to your conference location, that doesn't look like it should be too expensive (depending, of course, on the specific dates that you're traveling.)
posted by andrewraff at 1:53 PM on November 18, 2009

« Older Cocktails for the evil capitalists   |   Simple database app for text files? Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.