He bought my freezer, and now it's broken.

October 20, 2009 7:25 AM

I sold a used 24 cf chest freezer on Craigslist, and a few days later the buyer calls and wants his money back because it stopped working. What's the right thing to do?

I moved into a new house, and in the basement was a large chest freezer. Awesome, but I don't need it. The freezer worked flawlessly for the first three months I lived here, so I listed it on craigslist and someone came by, looked at it, and bought it. I helped him load it into his truck, and off he want. End of story, right? Nope...

He calls back a few days later and says it's now broken. He tells me he went to plug it in after the move, and can hear that "the compressor attempts to 'click' on but doesn't."

Naturally, he wants his money back. I know that legally I don't have to do anything, but morally? I'm not so sure. How do I know the freezer didn't get banged up in the move?

What's the right thing to do here?

posted by c:\awesome to Grab Bag (47 answers total)

Did you list "as is" on the ad?

I would consider partial refund, maybe 75%.
posted by spaltavian at 7:27 AM on October 20, 2009

And how do you know his story is legitimate? I don't think you need to feel morally obligated to refund his money. If you really feel that you must, then offer him half back.
posted by infodiva at 7:27 AM on October 20, 2009

Response by poster: I did not list "as is" on the ad.
posted by c:\awesome at 7:29 AM on October 20, 2009

Did he observe the freezer working in your home, so at least he knows that you weren't intentionally deceiving him?
posted by needs more cowbell at 7:29 AM on October 20, 2009

You hate these situations. It happened to me once when I sold a working watch to someone, packed it carefully, and it arrived non-functioning. I'd do one of two things:

1. Give him his money back. Since the freezer didn't really cost you in the first place, it doesn't hurt you to help out this guy, who basically got screwed over.

2. Give him half his money back. Alternately, offer to pay half of the repair bill, as long as it's not more than half the purchase price.
posted by reverend cuttle at 7:29 AM on October 20, 2009

Response by poster: Did he observe the freezer working in your home, so at least he knows that you weren't intentionally deceiving him?

Yes. When he came to look at it, and eventually buy it, it was plugged in and working with a nice layer of frost inside.
posted by c:\awesome at 7:31 AM on October 20, 2009

I should add, if you give him a full refund, he has to bring the freezer back to you. This will keep him honest.
posted by reverend cuttle at 7:31 AM on October 20, 2009 [10 favorites]

Is he returning the freezer? or just saying that it is broken and he wants his money back? I am skeptical. Was it plugged in and working when he came to pick it up? If so, no refund. If not, refund with return of unit.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:32 AM on October 20, 2009

On preview, no refund.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:32 AM on October 20, 2009 [1 favorite]

Go to his house, observe the freezer not working, and then offer him a refund. Take some fuses with you.

Make sure he returns the freezer, and at that point give him his cash back, not before. As to how much, I have no idea.
posted by Solomon at 7:33 AM on October 20, 2009

Response by poster: I should also add: he offered to return the unit in exchange for his money back... which makes the situation seem more legitimate. But still, should I be responsible for what could be his fault in causing the unit to break?
posted by c:\awesome at 7:34 AM on October 20, 2009

I moved into a house with an extra (working) fridge. Bought a new fridge, sold the old one for $50 on Craigslist. Help the guy load it into his truck, done.

Couple days later, he calls: the fridge doesn't work, he wants his money back and is annoyed that he'll have to pay for getting rid of the now-broken fridge.

I did return his money, but didn't take the fridge back.

Lesson learned:

DO NOT TRANSPORT A REFRIGERATOR IN ANYTHING BUT THE UPRIGHT POSITION!

Or, if you do, let the refrigerant settle back down in the system for a couple of days before you plug it in again. If you don't, the compressor will run dry and be damaged.
posted by spacewrench at 7:34 AM on October 20, 2009 [8 favorites]

He didn't ask you your return policy, and you didn't make any guarantees (presumably). You don't owe him anything.
posted by amro at 7:46 AM on October 20, 2009

This is really common with refrigeration equipment. I had the same problem when I helped my parent move theirs. Despite transporting the freezer in an upright position, and despite letting it settle for a day, it still broke down within a few hours of plugging it in.

So it could be that the buyer didn't know how to transport a freezer properly; it could be that it just chose that moment to break down. A scam seems unlikely.

Your decision is really about which of the following scenarios you prefer:

(a) You $50 better off, him pissed off at you.
(b) You minus one unwanted freezer, him satisified that you're honest.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 7:51 AM on October 20, 2009

Personally I'd sleep better having offered the buyer his money back.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 7:53 AM on October 20, 2009 [2 favorites]

I'd just give the money back. You didn't pay for the freezer so you won't really be out any money.. just let them return the thing and feel good about it.

Also, there are plenty of people that would dispose of it for free.
posted by ellighi at 7:59 AM on October 20, 2009

If I bought that freezer and it broke, I'd feel pretty lame asking you for my money back.

I don't think honesty comes into it at all. You didn't scam the guy. You simply sold him a used freezer. I don't think you owe the buyer anything once the sold item is in his possession. That's just how these things work (or don't!).

I'd say if you really feel bad about it, give the guy half the money. Most people wouldn't do that, so he's real lucky you're such a nice person!
posted by orme at 8:08 AM on October 20, 2009 [1 favorite]

I would refund him half, given the chances of the poor transport as the cause.
posted by craven_morhead at 8:08 AM on October 20, 2009

Yea, no. His freezer. You don't know what he did to it. Hell, for all you know he perforated the refrigerant line moving it into his place. He might have had it upside down, he might have dropped it, he might have stolen a piece off of it he needed for his own freezer. He might have the same freezer and try to bring you his broken one.

You know it was working when he bought it, he knows it was working when he bought it. These kinds of transactions don't require an "as-is" statement, it's implied.

Bottom line, his freezer, his problem.
posted by TomMelee at 8:15 AM on October 20, 2009 [2 favorites]

You didn't need the freezer, so I don't get the advice to ask for it back.

Go observe it not working, and give the money back. Think of it as hauled away for free.
posted by rainbaby at 8:24 AM on October 20, 2009 [1 favorite]

I would give the money back, mostly because he knows where you live and you don't know this guy.

As people above said, you didn't pay for it, so you're not really losing anything.
posted by alligatorman at 8:28 AM on October 20, 2009

I once sold someone an expensive ice cream machine. Upon using it, the buyer notified me that it wasn't working. He suggested that we split the repair cost - so we did that. Maybe you can offer this option to the buyer.
posted by watercarrier at 8:33 AM on October 20, 2009 [1 favorite]

It's not at all obvious to me what I would have to do to transport a freezer in a way that doesn't break it. Without any other instruction I would have assumed you just toss it in a truck and lift it and such.

If I buy something that is fragile in an unexpected way, I think the seller has a duty to inform me. This would be the case if I bought it from a store. If, as part of the sale, you did not include instructions for safe transport, then I would hold you at least a little responsible if it broke during transport, not legally I think but maybe morally. I say 50% refund.
posted by PercussivePaul at 8:37 AM on October 20, 2009

I don't know Paul; if you buy something from me without knowing how to safely transport it, that smacks of the situation being your problem and responsibility, not mine. I feel like my responsibility ends when it leaves my porch. That said, if I was in the asker's shoes, I wouldn't know much about safely transporting a freezer, so I wouldn't be much help. I would tell you what I knew about freezer transport, but wouldn't feel that it's incumbent on me to look up more information about the topic.
posted by craven_morhead at 8:44 AM on October 20, 2009

If you helped him load it into the truck and that loading was done improperly you might share some of the blame.

I would probably give him a partial refund if it would get him off my back, and relieve me of the need to dispose of the freezer. That's a practical decision rather than a moral or legal one.
posted by grouse at 8:50 AM on October 20, 2009

Best answer: I don't think the question is whether or not you are morally obligated to refund the money. It seems pretty clear that you are not. You sold him a used, working freezer in good faith; you are under no obligation to refund the money for an item that worked when you sold it. I think the question is: how much are you willing to pay to make the buyer happy and get them to leave you alone? They at least know where you live.
posted by Barry B. Palindromer at 8:55 AM on October 20, 2009 [1 favorite]

If he gives you the freezer back, I'd give him his money back. Crappy, but it's how I'd hope to be treated if I was in the same position.
posted by backwards guitar at 9:12 AM on October 20, 2009

I'd give him half his money back... if he returns it, or half the repair cost once he sends you a receipt. That makes him do something. By getting his participation, you get a fair test of how much he really cares, and you also ensure he's not just scamming you for a free fridge.

(Also: yeah, I'm no handyman but even I know that you're supposed to transport refrigerators upright. I seem to remember mine having a sticker on the back that says to leave it upright and unplugged for 24h after moving, too. I'd check, but I haven't been behind my fridge for many years, and I don't want to disturb whatever nascent civilization is taking hold there.)
posted by rokusan at 9:15 AM on October 20, 2009

I think you should try your hardest to figure out what would seem fair to you if you were the buyer in an identical scenario, and then do that. If you're just looking for the collective MeFi moral compass, I would have to confess that four times out of five, I wouldn't offer a refund or anything but sympathy. But since it's not my money, I'd vote for giving him half his money back, assuming you didn't sell the thing for $500.
posted by troywestfield at 9:18 AM on October 20, 2009

Zero refund, there were no implied warranties. Once he drove off, that was the end of your relationship with him. If the guy wants a warranty, he can buy a freezer that has one.
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 9:18 AM on October 20, 2009 [2 favorites]

Best answer: What? Paul? Nobody is obligated to teach you something about which you are ignorant, especially in a seller-to-buyer transaction where there's no store.

I would assume that anyone savvy enough to purchase used appliances after inspection would be savvy enough to know how to transport them.

It worked when it left your sight, you didn't charge him retail price for it, and you have no idea what he did to it. Big stores take things back because the manufacturer gives them RTM credit for those items. You sold a working freezer. Period.

The fact that it worked for 3 months before being sold and then mysteriously dying within a weeks smacks of being improperly handled.
posted by TomMelee at 9:22 AM on October 20, 2009 [1 favorite]

Best answer: Morally: You have acted in good faith the transaction is complete.

Since your not in the full time appliance sales and repair business it is obvious that the sale is As-Is.

Discussing the refunding of money back with him only implies a prior knowledge of the freezer being defective, and will only further fuel his efforts to make you responsible.

Morally: He should buck up and leave you alone, if he had wanted a warranty he should have bought new.

Them's the breaks.
posted by pianomover at 9:23 AM on October 20, 2009 [2 favorites]

If you do decide to give him a refund. Make sure it's the same freezer.
posted by electroboy at 9:23 AM on October 20, 2009 [1 favorite]

I think the as-is, no-warranty argument would be completely fine had the freezer broken down a month or two later. But the expectation when buying something used is that it will last for a reasonable period of time. When something breaks down shortly after purchase there's always the suspicion in the buyer's mind that you knew there was something wrong, and that you knew about it when you sold it.

Obviously you did nothing underhand here, but the buyer can be forgiven for being disgruntled. Morally, you're in the clear. But it's possible to be a nice person on top of being a moral person. It's really down to how you'll feel about yourself after whatever action you take, and whether this other person's satisfaction is a factor in hour happiness.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 9:46 AM on October 20, 2009

This exact thing happened to me, but I was on the buyer side. The fact of the matter is that it is hard to transport used refrigeration equipment without having it turn sour on you.

His freezer, his problem, says I. When I found out the one I bought didn't function due to a tiny leak that let all the freon out, I just bit the bullet. Didn't even contact the seller.

Of course, this isn't particularly good information for you. I like the idea of a partial refund, maybe.
posted by King Bee at 9:50 AM on October 20, 2009

odinsdream, I can't help you with that technicality. But c:\awesome asked what people feel is the morally right thing to do in this situation. If I sold someone something and it broke down within a couple of days, I'd feel bad about it, and I'd want to do something to make up for that. That's my moral standpoint. It's nothing to do with the technical definition of 'as is'; I don't think quibbling over wording (which, incidentally, c:\awesome says he did not use in his ad.) is really providing any insight into what is morally right or wrong.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 10:54 AM on October 20, 2009

Wait, I thought that plugging in a freezer within 24 hours after moving would break it, due to fluid sloshing around or something. Maybe I'm just wrong, but if he plugged it in immediately after moving it in, that would make it his own fault.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:56 AM on October 20, 2009 [1 favorite]

Caveat Emptor = Buyer Beware
posted by Mesach at 10:56 AM on October 20, 2009 [2 favorites]

How much did he pay for the freezer, relative to the cost of a new one? If what he paid was a tiny fraction of what a new one would cost, then I don't think you owe him anything. If he wanted a warranty he could have chosen to buy a new one. And it does sound like it might have been damaged in transport.

If, on the other hand, what he paid was a significant fraction of what a new one would have cost, then he has reason to feel burned and making things right would be the decent thing to do.
posted by dacoit at 11:15 AM on October 20, 2009

I would assume that anyone savvy enough to purchase used appliances after inspection would be savvy enough to know how to transport them.

But there's a gray area here; suppose you sold somebody a widget that didn't look fragile, but was, like it was in an opaque box that absolutely had to remain upright, but had no markings or warnings to that effect. If it breaks during the move, they would be justified in being angry, because exercising what to them is a normal amount of precaution turned out to be insufficient for the widget, and they would have had no way of knowing that in advance.

It hinges on whether you think it's obvious that a freezer will break during a move if you handle it incorrectly. I think either yes or no is a defensible assumption here. It's easily conceivable to me that the buyer was ignorant, so he would think "no", it's not obvious, and feel wounded. I agree that the seller doesn't have an obligation here because it's an informal sale - had this been a store it would be different - and moreover the buyer could and should have educated himself beforehand. But if it were me, I would feel sorry for him, and I would think that me refunding some of the money is worth it, because it buys me peace and it buys him a slightly less shitty day.
posted by PercussivePaul at 11:59 AM on October 20, 2009

If the freezer had worked for a few days and then failed, this would be different, but as it worked immediately before the removal and failed immediately afterwards, then the people responsible have to be the people who did the removal.

As you did a part of the removal then I'd say morally you are partly responsible. If you consider there are 3 parts to the removal: loading, transport and unloading, I would refund 1/3 as a goodwill gesture.

This is what removals insurance is for.
posted by Lanark at 12:23 PM on October 20, 2009

No Way would I refund a dime. Caveat emptor. You keep YOUR money, and he keeps HIS freezer. You are not responsible for the unit while it was in his care.
posted by Acacia at 1:29 PM on October 20, 2009 [1 favorite]

TomMelee i writes "The fact that it worked for 3 months before being sold and then mysteriously dying within a weeks smacks of being improperly handled."

This is actually pretty common regardless of how well it was handled. In fact just unplugging a freezer and letting it sit for a while (IE: more than a few days) can cause them to malfunction. This is because the lines inside the freezer walls that circulate the refrigerant are made of steel, so they can rust, and they are very cold, so they attract moisture. As long as the unit is running the moisture stays frozen and everything is fine. Unplug the unit for a month or two, the lines rust, and voila: broken freezer. This rusting also means, especially when you don't know the history of the unit (IE: how many times it was unplugged for extended periods), that the slightest movement let alone bumping down the road can cause a leak.

The rust is also why you should defrost your chest type freezer with a spatula while it's still running.

showbiz_liz writes "I thought that plugging in a freezer within 24 hours after moving would break it, due to fluid sloshing around or something. Maybe I'm just wrong, but if he plugged it in immediately after moving it in, that would make it his own fault."

It's a little more involved and circumstantial but generally leave a residential freezer or fridge to sit for an hour or two after moving it. 24hrs is overkill but easy to remember. 98 times out of a 100 you'd be fine if you just plopped it down and plugged it in but it can be really hard on compressors and motor protectors those 2 other times.

As to the OP's question: Personally I'd refund the guys money and be glad to be rid of the unit. I sure as hek wouldn't want it back because then disposal would be my problem and most places around here anyways you have to pay a disposal fee for anything containing refrigerant even if it's all leaked out. I'd tell the guy to swing by on his way to the disposal centre so i could hear it not run and then just give him his money without even checking. Anyone willing to load a used freezer into his truck and drive to my place just to get it for free needs the money worst than me. Whether that's the moral stance or the Ethics 101 stance I don't know but I know it's the "I won't feel guilty" stance.
posted by Mitheral at 1:48 PM on October 20, 2009 [3 favorites]

Ignore this if it's been said, but in some areas the city will pay you to get rid of your fridge for safety reasons. If you decide to take it back this may be an option you have so you can get a few bucks for it.
posted by june made him a gemini at 2:17 PM on October 20, 2009

I look at it like this. Caveat emptor, he bought a used freezer from you. If it works, so much the better for him, he gets a cheap freezer and you get fifty bucks and everyone is happy. If it doesn't work for whatever reason, he needs to suck it up and chalk it up to the fact that there are no guarantees with used goods. If I were the buyer, no way would I contact you, it would be my bad luck.

Having said that, he has contacted you. In my book that makes him a nut. Now, he might be relatively harmless nut. He might call you a few times and harrass you, and then that's that. Or he might come over to your place late at night and put a brick through your window. Or worse.

It's just not worth your worry over $50. Tell him to swing on by your place (at a time that's convenient for you), and give him the $50. Don't make any excuses, don't apologise, just give it to him with a smile, and then you're done. Don't get him to return it! Why do you need to have the problem of disposing of it? Like others have said upthread, you got it hauled away for free.

Oh and if he *is* scamming you and it is working? So what, who cares, it's really not important. It's just not worth worrying about.
posted by humpy at 2:39 PM on October 20, 2009

At a previous time in my life I ran a used building materials and appliances store...10,000 square feet of the stuff.

At that time, I offered a 14 day guarantee on all appliances, and I tested them all before they hit the floor.

Granted, I watched people load them and told them that if they elected to take it home in X manner, I wouldn't guarantee it, but I sold hundreds of chest freezers varying from late model to 30 years old. These were units that were unplugged and empty when they came to us, plugged in by us to demonstrate working condition, and then sold to buyers who were responsible for loading/unloading them.

I think in all the time I did that we took back 3 freezers...all were uprights, and all were ones I had watched people slide in on their back, raking the heat sinks across the beds of their trucks, and all were people who brought BACK the freezer in LESS than 24 hours, after having been advised to not plug them in for at least 24 hours. (ergo...they shouldn't have been plugged in yet at all...)

And...idk where you are, but every place I've lived, "free nonworking x appliance" sends the scrappers to your house within hours...
posted by TomMelee at 5:09 PM on October 20, 2009

Man, I wish the buyer was a Mefite and had asked what to do when he bought a used freezer, it didn't work, and the seller merrily flipped him a "caveat emptor!" I bet the advice would be quite different.

The right thing to do is refund the money (and take the freezer back). Otherwise you are simply teaching the rest of the world not to trust non-store sellers.
posted by zompist at 10:00 PM on October 20, 2009