Did Dr. David Marcus know who his father is?
October 11, 2009 4:42 PM Subscribe
Paternity question about the plot of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Spoilers inside about the movie and Nicholas Meyer's memoirs.
My Trekkie friend and I disagree about whether we're supposed to think that David Marcus knows Kirk is his father. Our dispute was touched off after I read Nicholas Meyer's new book The View From The Bridge.
An intriguing passage describes how Paramount required reshoots on the grounds that Kirk came across as a deadbeat dad. In the original version, I think, Kirk knew he had a son, but hadn't bothered to check up on him any more than he had bothered to check local weather conditions on Ceti Alpha IV.
The reshoots changed that. In the version we know, Kirk is surprised to meet David, thanks to the added line: "Why didn't you tell me?" Which I guess means, "Why didn't you tell me I had a son?"
So much for Kirk knowing. But our question is this: Watching the movie these last 17 years, did you think David, himself, is surprised to find out who his dad is?
This is what I always assumed, based on the casual way he talks about the "overgrown boy scout" who dated his mom. But my friend takes the opposite position. He always assumed David grew up knowing about, and resenting, his dad. Which would mean the "overgrown boy scout" line was an ironic jab meaning "my dickhead father."
Is this something the movie fudges or do you think we're supposed to think one thing rather than the other?
My Trekkie friend and I disagree about whether we're supposed to think that David Marcus knows Kirk is his father. Our dispute was touched off after I read Nicholas Meyer's new book The View From The Bridge.
An intriguing passage describes how Paramount required reshoots on the grounds that Kirk came across as a deadbeat dad. In the original version, I think, Kirk knew he had a son, but hadn't bothered to check up on him any more than he had bothered to check local weather conditions on Ceti Alpha IV.
The reshoots changed that. In the version we know, Kirk is surprised to meet David, thanks to the added line: "Why didn't you tell me?" Which I guess means, "Why didn't you tell me I had a son?"
So much for Kirk knowing. But our question is this: Watching the movie these last 17 years, did you think David, himself, is surprised to find out who his dad is?
This is what I always assumed, based on the casual way he talks about the "overgrown boy scout" who dated his mom. But my friend takes the opposite position. He always assumed David grew up knowing about, and resenting, his dad. Which would mean the "overgrown boy scout" line was an ironic jab meaning "my dickhead father."
Is this something the movie fudges or do you think we're supposed to think one thing rather than the other?
Response by poster: Oh that's interesting, so you took it as a scene that retroactively takes on that new meaning. The thing I left out was that the original line was "you never told him?" which means the same scene could have served both interpretations.
posted by johngoren at 4:58 PM on October 11, 2009
posted by johngoren at 4:58 PM on October 11, 2009
I always assumed that Kirk didn't know about his son, his son did know about his father.
posted by adamrice at 5:11 PM on October 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by adamrice at 5:11 PM on October 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Yeah, the ST II and ST III novels (yes, heaven help me, I have read them[1]; the novelisation of ST III is light years ahead of the crappy movie) make it pretty clear that David has a big chip on his shoulder about his father's percieved neglect.
[1] The lag in movies making it to New Zealand meant my parents would buy them for me when I was a kid; the books would arrive long before the films.
posted by rodgerd at 5:18 PM on October 11, 2009
[1] The lag in movies making it to New Zealand meant my parents would buy them for me when I was a kid; the books would arrive long before the films.
posted by rodgerd at 5:18 PM on October 11, 2009
I just watched this other day during an even numbered star trek marathon. The original line makes me think Kirk knew he had a son, but the son didn't know Kirk was his dad. The added "why didn't you tell me" I took to mean, why didn't you tell me my son was here too.
Either way I sort of assumed Kirk knew he had a son, and the son had heard stories about his father, but didn't know who he was.
A few scenes later the mom explains that she didn't want David to be a part of Kirk's world, which also makes me think he didn't know Kirk was his dad.
posted by Arbac at 5:22 PM on October 11, 2009
Either way I sort of assumed Kirk knew he had a son, and the son had heard stories about his father, but didn't know who he was.
A few scenes later the mom explains that she didn't want David to be a part of Kirk's world, which also makes me think he didn't know Kirk was his dad.
posted by Arbac at 5:22 PM on October 11, 2009
It's always seemed pretty clear to me that Kirk was aware that David was his son all along, and simply didn't know that David was part of the Genesis project as well as Carol. It's also seemed clear that David didn't know that Kirk was his father until late in the movie. Witness his comment to his mother about "that overgrown boy scout you used to date." If he knew Kirk was his father, why would he phrase it like that?
It also seems clear that Carol didn't want David to know Kirk was his father, because in the scene near the end with David and Kirk in Kirk's quarters, it's always seemed to me that Kirk is resisting the strong temptation to tell David the truth, only to be surprised when David reveals that he now knows it.
posted by cerebus19 at 7:42 PM on October 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
It also seems clear that Carol didn't want David to know Kirk was his father, because in the scene near the end with David and Kirk in Kirk's quarters, it's always seemed to me that Kirk is resisting the strong temptation to tell David the truth, only to be surprised when David reveals that he now knows it.
posted by cerebus19 at 7:42 PM on October 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I'm going to go with the "they both knew" answer. I haven't read the book, so I'm not sure what the intent was, but I don't think I ever questioned the knowledge of paternity. That is, it always came across to me that Kirk knew he had a son and that David knew Kirk was his father, but that neither were particularly comfortable with that ... which I always assumed had to do with a backstory the audience is simply never told.
posted by neewom at 9:43 PM on October 11, 2009
posted by neewom at 9:43 PM on October 11, 2009
The answer depends on the source material. Going strictly by what's said in the movie, Kirk knows and David doesn't... but Kirk doesn't know that David doesn't know.
An earlier version of the script makes it clear that neither of them knew that they were father and son:
So Kirk clearly knew of David before this first meeting ("Is that David?"), and seems to know David is his son, but is surprised that David doesn't know Kirk is his father ("Why didn't you tell him?").
posted by wnodom at 3:06 AM on October 12, 2009 [4 favorites]
An earlier version of the script makes it clear that neither of them knew that they were father and son:
......................................................
CAROL
David --
DAVID
Mother, go back!
Carol sees Kirk --
CAROL
Jim --
DAVID
Go back. I'm going to kill him.
CAROL
(takes a breath)
You do that and you'll have murdered
your father.
All react. David and Kirk, facing each other, are
turned to stone. Bones, Jedda and Chekov turn to look
at Carol, wondering. Terrell very casually takes the
phaser from Jedda.
TERRELL
(cool)
I'll hold onto this.
But Kirk and Carol ignore them and walk towards each
other. There are tears in Carol's eyes. She reaches
up, trying to smile and touches his hair --
CAROL
You've got a little grey --
She can't. Kirk takes her and holds her tightly, look-
ing at David, over her shoulder. He stands there,
stunned, looking back.
KIRK
Carol. Is that true?
She nods --
KIRK
(continuing)
Why didn't you tell me?
DAVID
She's making it up! My father was
Professor --
CAROL
David, you're just making this
harder --
......................................................
KIRK
Why? Why didn't you tell me?
CAROL
How can you ask me that? Were we
together? Where we going to be?
You had your world and I had mine.
I wanted him in mine, not chasing
through the universe with his father.
Kirk turns away, overcome. She watches him.
CAROL
(continuing)
He's a lot like you in many ways.
Nothing I could do about it. He's
smarter, of course; that goes without
saying. Most of Genesis is really
his.
Her joke doesn't take effect. He doesn't turn.
CAROL
(continuing)
This is it, isn't it? We're never
going to get out of here.
Kirk says nothing.
CAROL
(continuing)
Please. Tell me what you're feeling.
Kirk hesitates, comes back and sits next to Chekov; he
changes Bones' compress on the ear as he finally speaks.
KIRK
There's a man I haven't seen in
fifteen years who thinks he's killed
me. You show me a son who'd almost be
happy to help him. My son. My life
that could have been and wasn't. What
am I feeling? I'm feeling old --
worn out.
......................................................
A later version of the script pares this down a bit, and it's no longer so clear:
......................................................
DAVID
(to Kirk)
You!
KIRK
Where's Doctor Marcus?
DAVID
I'm Doctor Marcus!
Carol reaches the tunnel entrance to the cave -
CAROL
Jim -
KIRK
Is that David?
DAVID
Mother! He killed everybody we
left behind.
CAROL
Oh, of course he didn't. David,
you're just making this harder -
......................................................
KIRK
(continuing, to Carol)
I did what you wanted. I stayed
away. Why didn't you tell me?
CAROL
How can you ask me that? Were we
together? Were we going to be?
You had your world and I had mine.
And I wanted him in mine, not chasing
through the universe with his father.
Kirk turns away, overcome. She watches him.
CAROL
(continuing)
Actually, he's a lot like you in
many ways. Please. Tell me what
you're feeling.
KIRK
There's a man out there I haven't
seen in fifteen years who's trying
to kill me. You show me a son
that'd be happy to help him. My son.
My life that could have been and
wasn't. And what am I feeling?
Old - worn out.
......................................................
But neither of these match what's actually in the movie. I dug out the 2002 Director's Cut DVD and the 2009 remaster and checked the dialogue from the relevant scenes (dialogue is the same in both versions; times are from the 2009 DVD):
......................................................
01:06:40
KIRK
Is that David?
DAVID
Mother, he killed everybody we
left behind.
CAROL
Oh, of course he didn't. David,
you're just making this harder.
......................................................
01:12:50
KIRK
I did what you wanted. I stayed
away. Why didn't you tell him?
CAROL
How can you ask me that? Were we
together? Were we going to be?
You had your world, and I had mine.
And I wanted him in mine, not chasing
through the universe with his father.
......................................................
This is very close to the later script, but there's a key difference: in the script, Kirk says "Why didn't you tell me?" but in the movie, it's "Why didn't you tell him?"So Kirk clearly knew of David before this first meeting ("Is that David?"), and seems to know David is his son, but is surprised that David doesn't know Kirk is his father ("Why didn't you tell him?").
posted by wnodom at 3:06 AM on October 12, 2009 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Mapes at 4:49 PM on October 11, 2009