Am I the dirtbag, or are they?
June 22, 2009 1:41 PM Subscribe
Is it unprofessional to ask for money to fix a bug in software I wrote for a previous employer?
I was the sole developer for a web application that I wrote for a government agency (in Canada) about two years ago for a co-op job while I was in university. About two months after I finished working there, they emailed me asking if I could come in to fix a bug. I did, assuming they would pay me for the afternoon it took to fix the problem. They didn't, though I didn't ask to be paid, so maybe that's my fault.
Today, two years later, I got an email asking me to come in and fix another bug for them. I think the bug will be relatively easy to fix, but it'll probably take a morning or afternoon of my time to do. There was no mention of payment in the email.
Should I ask to be paid in the email I send back to them? It's not the money that matters to me (I've since graduated and earn more money than I need), but rather the time I'd need to take out of my week to do this. I don't want them to feel like it's okay to ask people to come in and do things for them without compensating them for the work, inconvenience, etc.
I'm relatively inexperienced in working in this field, so is it unprofessional to ask to be paid to fix a bug in the software I wrote, years later?
I was the sole developer for a web application that I wrote for a government agency (in Canada) about two years ago for a co-op job while I was in university. About two months after I finished working there, they emailed me asking if I could come in to fix a bug. I did, assuming they would pay me for the afternoon it took to fix the problem. They didn't, though I didn't ask to be paid, so maybe that's my fault.
Today, two years later, I got an email asking me to come in and fix another bug for them. I think the bug will be relatively easy to fix, but it'll probably take a morning or afternoon of my time to do. There was no mention of payment in the email.
Should I ask to be paid in the email I send back to them? It's not the money that matters to me (I've since graduated and earn more money than I need), but rather the time I'd need to take out of my week to do this. I don't want them to feel like it's okay to ask people to come in and do things for them without compensating them for the work, inconvenience, etc.
I'm relatively inexperienced in working in this field, so is it unprofessional to ask to be paid to fix a bug in the software I wrote, years later?
Of course you should be paid. Doing work for an employer does not entitle them to your work in perpetuity. If they want more of your work, you have every right to ask them to compensate you for it.
posted by decathecting at 1:45 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by decathecting at 1:45 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
(not a software developer)
Yes, it is unethical. Bugs happen in software.
You aren't at the job now- not paying you for work done two months after you officially 'left' is bad, two years later would take big brass ones.
Tell them you want to be paid for your time, otherwise they can go and hire someone else.
posted by dunkadunc at 1:46 PM on June 22, 2009
Yes, it is unethical. Bugs happen in software.
You aren't at the job now- not paying you for work done two months after you officially 'left' is bad, two years later would take big brass ones.
Tell them you want to be paid for your time, otherwise they can go and hire someone else.
posted by dunkadunc at 1:46 PM on June 22, 2009
You should absolutely be paid for the work. Writing an application does not mean "free support for life". They need to hire someone to fix it, whether that is you or someone else is their choice, but you are not ethically obligated to fix it for free. You may choose to lower your rate for this, but that's totally up to you.
posted by Kimberly at 1:47 PM on June 22, 2009
posted by Kimberly at 1:47 PM on June 22, 2009
Best answer: Presumably, they tested and accepted the project at some point? I know this might be an incorrect assumption given it was a co-op position.
Yes, you should be paid to fix this bug.
Government agencies often have bureaucracy to go through in order to get something like this fixed. These people are thinking "Hey, why don't we just call up good old NoEatingdogs and he'll fix it right up? No work request, no IT red tape, No hit to our budget!"
I have been there (though I was still working for the gov, but in a different department) and if they can get it done for free and on the down low, of course they love to. It only took one response of "I am not on this project anymore, but here is a developer who works in this technology the most, so give him a shout and he'll be able to do your changes". Going to a new guy of course meant they'd have to do it officially, and all of a sudden they didn't need this change so much anymore.
posted by utsutsu at 1:49 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Yes, you should be paid to fix this bug.
Government agencies often have bureaucracy to go through in order to get something like this fixed. These people are thinking "Hey, why don't we just call up good old NoEatingdogs and he'll fix it right up? No work request, no IT red tape, No hit to our budget!"
I have been there (though I was still working for the gov, but in a different department) and if they can get it done for free and on the down low, of course they love to. It only took one response of "I am not on this project anymore, but here is a developer who works in this technology the most, so give him a shout and he'll be able to do your changes". Going to a new guy of course meant they'd have to do it officially, and all of a sudden they didn't need this change so much anymore.
posted by utsutsu at 1:49 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Totally ask to be paid. If you were unavailable to them, they wouldn't find someone else to fix a bug for free, would they?
posted by chudmonkey at 1:49 PM on June 22, 2009
posted by chudmonkey at 1:49 PM on June 22, 2009
"Why are you sending this to me? I don't work there anymore."
posted by smackfu at 1:51 PM on June 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by smackfu at 1:51 PM on June 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
Yes, you should get paid for working for them, at the current contractor rates, regardless of your previous employment with them, or even the fact that it was a bug you wrote years ago. Just because you mistakenly agreed to work for them for free before doesn't mean you should feel obligated to do the same thing again. The correct response to their request is not an acceptance, but a quote for the work and a clear statement of what the work entails (to ensure that they don't try to make you do any more work "just because you're here").
posted by meowzilla at 1:53 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by meowzilla at 1:53 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Okay, thanks. That's pretty much what I thought. I'm not used to being in demand, so I really wasn't sure how to proceed, and I don't want to look petty.
Thanks a lot for the advice.
posted by NoEatingdogs at 1:58 PM on June 22, 2009
Thanks a lot for the advice.
posted by NoEatingdogs at 1:58 PM on June 22, 2009
two years later?
what is the warranty given by most web developers - i bet it is only one year.
i mean, if they had contracted a developer to do the work, and two years later they called for a fix - that would not be covered by warranty. warranty has expired.
and this is not even a warranty situation. absolutely they should have to pay.
and remind them, you can do it faster and cheap er than others, because you know the software better than others.
posted by Flood at 1:59 PM on June 22, 2009
what is the warranty given by most web developers - i bet it is only one year.
i mean, if they had contracted a developer to do the work, and two years later they called for a fix - that would not be covered by warranty. warranty has expired.
and this is not even a warranty situation. absolutely they should have to pay.
and remind them, you can do it faster and cheap er than others, because you know the software better than others.
posted by Flood at 1:59 PM on June 22, 2009
What smackfu said. Either tell them to give the task to their current developer, or quote them an hourly rate before you go in to do any more work.
This comes up occasionally in a certain class of freelance job; a handful clients are still under the mistaken belief that all software development comes with a lifetime guarantee of maintenance and support. Usually it's fly-by-night first time entrepreneurs, though -- that a government agency is trying to pull this on you is just unconscionable.
posted by ook at 1:59 PM on June 22, 2009
This comes up occasionally in a certain class of freelance job; a handful clients are still under the mistaken belief that all software development comes with a lifetime guarantee of maintenance and support. Usually it's fly-by-night first time entrepreneurs, though -- that a government agency is trying to pull this on you is just unconscionable.
posted by ook at 1:59 PM on June 22, 2009
I'm split on this, but if you don't do it, they'll have to pay someone else to fix it who will take much longer since it's not their code. So, if they would get paid, you should too. On the other hand, it's a defect in your code for an application they paid you to write. They didn't pay for bugs but a stable/reliable web app. Tricky one. I'd fix it, as a matter of personal pride in my code, but in the future put in a maintenance clause into the contract.
posted by hungrysquirrels at 2:01 PM on June 22, 2009
posted by hungrysquirrels at 2:01 PM on June 22, 2009
what is the warranty given by most web developers - i bet it is only one year.
Try zero days.
posted by ook at 2:03 PM on June 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
Try zero days.
posted by ook at 2:03 PM on June 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
3rding smackfu.
Bugs are a way of life. They will exist. No developer writes perfect, bug free code all the time. Fixing bugs is part of the job. You get paid to do your job. Unless there's a maintenance clause in your contract (and hence you're contractually obligated to find a solution) you get paid to fix bugs.
Now, if it's a 5 minute fix and you can do it from home, then by all means go ahead an fix it for free in the spirit of good business relationships. But anything other than that deserves to be paid like any other job.
posted by cgg at 2:07 PM on June 22, 2009
Bugs are a way of life. They will exist. No developer writes perfect, bug free code all the time. Fixing bugs is part of the job. You get paid to do your job. Unless there's a maintenance clause in your contract (and hence you're contractually obligated to find a solution) you get paid to fix bugs.
Now, if it's a 5 minute fix and you can do it from home, then by all means go ahead an fix it for free in the spirit of good business relationships. But anything other than that deserves to be paid like any other job.
posted by cgg at 2:07 PM on June 22, 2009
Response by poster: I'd fix it, as a matter of personal pride in my code, but in the future put in a maintenance clause into the contract.
There was no contract. I worked there on a four month co-op work term as the only developer in a science group that doesn't otherwise employ software developers.
I think I'd like them to pay me for the same reason that I ask for a friend to buy me a beer or bottle of wine if they ask me to fix their computer for them. I'd like it to be clear that my work is valuable.
posted by NoEatingdogs at 2:09 PM on June 22, 2009
There was no contract. I worked there on a four month co-op work term as the only developer in a science group that doesn't otherwise employ software developers.
I think I'd like them to pay me for the same reason that I ask for a friend to buy me a beer or bottle of wine if they ask me to fix their computer for them. I'd like it to be clear that my work is valuable.
posted by NoEatingdogs at 2:09 PM on June 22, 2009
You didn't get paid last time because you didn't send an invoice. Money doesn't usually fall out of the sky for no reason -- you have to ask for it. They are not responsible for you not sending a bill for your work. But you should have been paid last time, and you should be paid this time. Consider the last time to be a lesson learned, and this time, before you go in, just say something like, "I just wanted to let you know that my hourly rate is currently _____, are you OK with that?" They will say yes, and all will be well.
posted by spilon at 2:12 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by spilon at 2:12 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Also -- what happens if you open up a rat's nest of code? It's been two years!! Who else has screwed around in there? It might be considerably more that just a morning out of your day, but you won't know until you're knee deep. Email them back with your hourly wage (for contractors, a rough ballpark is 2x your salaried wage) and explain that you'll give them a full estimate of the time it should take after you've seen the code.
posted by cgg at 2:12 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by cgg at 2:12 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Baby's gotta have shoes. Offer yourself up as a consultant at an hourly fee twice what you're making now. One of two things will happen: you'll never hear from them again, or you get a nice little side-gig. It's your time, talent and reputation at stake -- might as well make it win-win.
posted by JohnFredra at 2:14 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by JohnFredra at 2:14 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Flood: what is the warranty given by most web developers - i bet it is only one year.
Zero. In the contacting world, any respectable developer has a formal "sign-off", as the last step prior to final payment, that acknowledges that the client accepts the work in its current state. If you are a FT employee, the company automatically owns anything you produce, so it automatically becomes their problem once you leave.
In reality, developers will often cut the other side a break if it's a particularly gnarly bug that's obviously their fault and is causing major problems, but it doesn't sound like that's what's happening here.
posted by mkultra at 2:16 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Zero. In the contacting world, any respectable developer has a formal "sign-off", as the last step prior to final payment, that acknowledges that the client accepts the work in its current state. If you are a FT employee, the company automatically owns anything you produce, so it automatically becomes their problem once you leave.
In reality, developers will often cut the other side a break if it's a particularly gnarly bug that's obviously their fault and is causing major problems, but it doesn't sound like that's what's happening here.
posted by mkultra at 2:16 PM on June 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Maybe I'm missing something, but the folks seconding and thirding "what smackfu said" don't seem to be doing that at all. Smackfu offers a one-liner which to me translates as "take a hike." Ook and cgg seem to suggest responding with a quotation.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 2:17 PM on June 22, 2009
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 2:17 PM on June 22, 2009
I didn't read smackfu's response as "take a hike" (although perhaps I should have), I read it more as "this is no longer my responsibility to fix", which I then followed up with "But I am willing to do so if compensated appropriately."
posted by cgg at 2:24 PM on June 22, 2009
posted by cgg at 2:24 PM on June 22, 2009
Sorry, I was a bit unclear. That would be my reaction, not my response, unless I really wanted to burn bridges.
posted by smackfu at 2:36 PM on June 22, 2009
posted by smackfu at 2:36 PM on June 22, 2009
I worked for my previous company on matters a lot less important than debugging software, and I got paid a good hourly rate. If they don't meet your rate, pass on the work.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 2:52 PM on June 22, 2009
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 2:52 PM on June 22, 2009
Should I ask to be paid in the email I send back to them?
Yes.
posted by davejay at 2:59 PM on June 22, 2009
Yes.
posted by davejay at 2:59 PM on June 22, 2009
I agree with cgg. If there's a quick fix (one hour or less), just go ahead and do it. This is especially if there's any possibility that you might need a reference from them in the future. If it's something that will take a few hours, by all means charge them and let them know upfront. After all, if it's going to take a few hours, it will cut into your leave time with your employer, or personal time after work. I wouldn't do this for the money so much as I would do it to make sure that calling for bug fixes isn't going to be a constant pattern.
I'm not in the software development industry, so I don't know if this is common, but it seems kind of unusual that they are reporting a bug 2 years after the software was completed. If it turns out that what they're calling a bug is really just a software limitation and outside of the design specifications when you originally worked on it, I would feel far less generous and consider that to be a new job requiring a new contract (or new developer if you're not interested in the extra work).
posted by necessitas at 3:13 PM on June 22, 2009
I'm not in the software development industry, so I don't know if this is common, but it seems kind of unusual that they are reporting a bug 2 years after the software was completed. If it turns out that what they're calling a bug is really just a software limitation and outside of the design specifications when you originally worked on it, I would feel far less generous and consider that to be a new job requiring a new contract (or new developer if you're not interested in the extra work).
posted by necessitas at 3:13 PM on June 22, 2009
If there's a quick fix (one hour or less), just go ahead and do it. This is especially if there's any possibility that you might need a reference from them in the future.Nope. Nope, nope, nope.
You explain to them that you have an hourly rate for consulting stuff, and you can take a look and see how much time it would take -- so they can decide whether paying you $X would be worth their time -- but unless the solution is, "Oh, see? You forgot to double-click the icon" it's still your time.
Most consultants actually have a minimum fee, so that 15 minutes of work is still an hour gig -- it helps prevent the nickel and diming of "Well, that only took you 45 minutes to fix so we'll pay you 3/4 of your hourly rate..."
Charge your rate. Make your rate HIGH. And if you feel particularly charitable, write in a discount on the invoice. That's the only way to ensure that people realize your time has value.
posted by verb at 3:37 PM on June 22, 2009
"Yeah, I'd be happy to do that. I also realize that I forgot to invoice you for the work I did for the last bug I fixed. Do you mind if I add that to the invoice at the labor rate I charged at the time?"
posted by sully75 at 3:48 PM on June 22, 2009
posted by sully75 at 3:48 PM on June 22, 2009
Ook and cgg seem to suggest responding with a quotation.
I said either tell them to give the job to the person who's currently doing the job (i.e. what smackfu said) or quote an hourly rate.
posted by ook at 4:55 PM on June 22, 2009
I said either tell them to give the job to the person who's currently doing the job (i.e. what smackfu said) or quote an hourly rate.
posted by ook at 4:55 PM on June 22, 2009
In the engineering world we'd call it "software maintenance" or "sustaining engineering" and we'd pay for it.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:15 PM on June 22, 2009
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:15 PM on June 22, 2009
Neither party is a dirtbag, here, I don't think. I doubt a gov't agency is trying to nickle and dime some poor programmer, and you're clearly concerned and asking for the 'right' thing to do.
You shouldn't do this for free. The only way you should ever do this for free if it was your bug/mistake (it was) AND if you delivered/sold them this work as guaranteed to perform in a way it does not, because of this bug. That is, if by fixing it you're meeting the terms of the original agreement... then you should do it for free, yes.
But that doesn't sound like it applies here. If it's something you did for hours of labor, then of course you should be paid for more labor later, no matter the reason it's needed.
posted by rokusan at 6:25 PM on June 22, 2009
You shouldn't do this for free. The only way you should ever do this for free if it was your bug/mistake (it was) AND if you delivered/sold them this work as guaranteed to perform in a way it does not, because of this bug. That is, if by fixing it you're meeting the terms of the original agreement... then you should do it for free, yes.
But that doesn't sound like it applies here. If it's something you did for hours of labor, then of course you should be paid for more labor later, no matter the reason it's needed.
posted by rokusan at 6:25 PM on June 22, 2009
Make sure your rate is high, as taxes on income from self-employment are very high.
posted by halonine at 8:35 PM on June 22, 2009
posted by halonine at 8:35 PM on June 22, 2009
Don't do what sully75 said. It was two YEARS ago -- you made the mistake in not billing for it at the time. Billing for it now would be extremely unprofessional, imho.
But, tell them you charge $XX per hour, two-hour minimum for consulting work. We all needs to gets paid.
posted by liquado at 7:59 AM on June 23, 2009
But, tell them you charge $XX per hour, two-hour minimum for consulting work. We all needs to gets paid.
posted by liquado at 7:59 AM on June 23, 2009
I work for a large government north of the US border in a science role, and I would not expect to be able to do call-backs to previous students without payment. In fact, I have done exactly this a couple of times.
There are a couple of ways that they can arrange to pay for short-term or piece work, some of them very easy, some not so much, but the point is they can pay you if sufficiently motivated.
posted by bonehead at 12:27 PM on June 23, 2009
There are a couple of ways that they can arrange to pay for short-term or piece work, some of them very easy, some not so much, but the point is they can pay you if sufficiently motivated.
posted by bonehead at 12:27 PM on June 23, 2009
(by this, I mean "paid for call back work under contract", of course).
posted by bonehead at 12:29 PM on June 23, 2009
posted by bonehead at 12:29 PM on June 23, 2009
"I'd be happy to come in and help you resolve the issue you've found. My rate is $X per hour, Y hours minimum. If you're fine with this, let's schedule something. Thanks, NoEatingdogs"
posted by lowlife at 7:02 AM on June 24, 2009
posted by lowlife at 7:02 AM on June 24, 2009
Response by poster: Well, just to let anyone know, I ended up replying with something along the lines of
"I'd be happy to come in and help you resolve the issue you've found. My rate is $X per hour, Y hours minimum. If you're fine with this, let's schedule something. Thanks, NoEatingdogs"
I didn't get a response back, which is fine by me. I don't think anyone would see my answer as unprofessional, and I feel happy that I didn't do a bunch of work I didn't want to do for free.
I'd recommend others do the same.
posted by NoEatingdogs at 3:01 PM on July 27, 2009
"I'd be happy to come in and help you resolve the issue you've found. My rate is $X per hour, Y hours minimum. If you're fine with this, let's schedule something. Thanks, NoEatingdogs"
I didn't get a response back, which is fine by me. I don't think anyone would see my answer as unprofessional, and I feel happy that I didn't do a bunch of work I didn't want to do for free.
I'd recommend others do the same.
posted by NoEatingdogs at 3:01 PM on July 27, 2009
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