Academic Career - Yea or Nay?
November 28, 2004 9:12 PM Subscribe
Is it a good idea to pursue an academic career?
...I know that no one can actually answer this question in a general sense, but I could really use others' perspectives.
In six months I'll have a psychology BA, which is pretty useless on its own. I'm into cognitive science and neuroscience and don't think I'm cut out for clinical work. All my non-school-related skills are excessively common and unlikely to get me hired. I've always assumed I'd just go straight to grad school, get an experimentally oriented PhD, and be a professor/researcher...but lately I've been having serious second thoughts.
I'm worried about these things (in descending order of urgency):
-Specialization and time commitments - having to devote all my time to researching a narrow topic plus doing a bunch of busywork, and being forced to sacrifice my other interests (both intellectual and personal).
-My tendency to take academic competition/failure way too personally, coupled with my horrible time management skills. These have already caused me a lot of suffering, and my efforts to change have so far been unsuccessful.
-Feeling like a self-indulgent escapist for retreating into the ivory tower when the world is in such horrible shape. (Related problem: my anti-corporate sentiments restrict my ability to fall back on private-sector jobs...)
-The job market in higher education: it's already bad, and could totally collapse when/if the US economy does. I have ~$15k of student loan debt, and although I'm not hung up on income, I don't want to starve...or, less melodramatically, scrape by for decades as an adjunct professor or have to relocate to somewhere I hate.
-Dealing with shmooze-ey prestige hierarchies, self-congratulatory elitism, etc.
I'd love to hear from people who have considered similar careers and/or have had to confront any of these worries in their own lives (since I know that some of 'em pop up in all sorts of jobs). What was your situation like? How did you decide to deal with it? Where have you ended up? Are you happy?
...I know that no one can actually answer this question in a general sense, but I could really use others' perspectives.
In six months I'll have a psychology BA, which is pretty useless on its own. I'm into cognitive science and neuroscience and don't think I'm cut out for clinical work. All my non-school-related skills are excessively common and unlikely to get me hired. I've always assumed I'd just go straight to grad school, get an experimentally oriented PhD, and be a professor/researcher...but lately I've been having serious second thoughts.
I'm worried about these things (in descending order of urgency):
-Specialization and time commitments - having to devote all my time to researching a narrow topic plus doing a bunch of busywork, and being forced to sacrifice my other interests (both intellectual and personal).
-My tendency to take academic competition/failure way too personally, coupled with my horrible time management skills. These have already caused me a lot of suffering, and my efforts to change have so far been unsuccessful.
-Feeling like a self-indulgent escapist for retreating into the ivory tower when the world is in such horrible shape. (Related problem: my anti-corporate sentiments restrict my ability to fall back on private-sector jobs...)
-The job market in higher education: it's already bad, and could totally collapse when/if the US economy does. I have ~$15k of student loan debt, and although I'm not hung up on income, I don't want to starve...or, less melodramatically, scrape by for decades as an adjunct professor or have to relocate to somewhere I hate.
-Dealing with shmooze-ey prestige hierarchies, self-congratulatory elitism, etc.
I'd love to hear from people who have considered similar careers and/or have had to confront any of these worries in their own lives (since I know that some of 'em pop up in all sorts of jobs). What was your situation like? How did you decide to deal with it? Where have you ended up? Are you happy?
Response by poster: You may very well be right. Re-reading my post, though, I think it's overly one-sided - there are things I think could be great about academia, too. I love the subject matter, for instance, and I like the idea of advancing the progress of human understanding (as cheesy as that sounds). Also, most other jobs sound pretty terrible to me. I fear that many of my criticisms of academia also apply to the vast majority of other careers, and that I am naive in demonizing the one concrete option I've thought of in favor of holding out for some idealized-yet-probably-illusory better option.
This whole "making decisions that will affect the whole rest of your life" thing sure is scary.
posted by introcosm at 9:38 PM on November 28, 2004
This whole "making decisions that will affect the whole rest of your life" thing sure is scary.
posted by introcosm at 9:38 PM on November 28, 2004
I'm a third-year grad student in computer science and know a bunch of psychology grad students. I don't really have an answer for you, but I can give you some data points:
1. Specialization: this is the curse and blessing of grad school and academic life in general. The advantage is they actually pay you just to work on stuff you're interested in anyway, and that's pretty awesome; the disadvantage is that it's way more difficult than you might think to guess what will hold your interest for extended periods. On the other hand, I have found that I have more freedom to wander around and do different things than I'd thought I would; I've actually done some work with psychology people in the past. Exactly what you get to do and what you'll be supported in doing is heavily dependent on your department and your advisor, though.
2. Tendency to take competition too seriously, bad time management skills: that's everybody in the whole world of academia, dude.
3. Dealing with academic egos: very much depends on the department, and I know of departments where this totally ruins everything and others where it's no big deal. I understand it may be worse in psychology than in computer science, but in any event, don't think it's inescapable, just do your homework and talk to the grad students of departments you're considering. (Don't ask the faculty, they won't tell you. The grad students may or may not.)
I should say that in my few years of industry work, I found the ego clashes and stupid politics far worse there than in my department. You may have the opposite experience.
4. THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN WHETHER GRAD SCHOOL IS GOOD OR BAD IS YOUR ADVISOR. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS NEARLY AS MUCH AS YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR ADVISOR. I cannot emphasize this enough. Grad school with an advisor you get along with will be useful. Grad school with an advisor you hate will be a waste of time.
posted by jacobm at 9:41 PM on November 28, 2004
1. Specialization: this is the curse and blessing of grad school and academic life in general. The advantage is they actually pay you just to work on stuff you're interested in anyway, and that's pretty awesome; the disadvantage is that it's way more difficult than you might think to guess what will hold your interest for extended periods. On the other hand, I have found that I have more freedom to wander around and do different things than I'd thought I would; I've actually done some work with psychology people in the past. Exactly what you get to do and what you'll be supported in doing is heavily dependent on your department and your advisor, though.
2. Tendency to take competition too seriously, bad time management skills: that's everybody in the whole world of academia, dude.
3. Dealing with academic egos: very much depends on the department, and I know of departments where this totally ruins everything and others where it's no big deal. I understand it may be worse in psychology than in computer science, but in any event, don't think it's inescapable, just do your homework and talk to the grad students of departments you're considering. (Don't ask the faculty, they won't tell you. The grad students may or may not.)
I should say that in my few years of industry work, I found the ego clashes and stupid politics far worse there than in my department. You may have the opposite experience.
4. THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN WHETHER GRAD SCHOOL IS GOOD OR BAD IS YOUR ADVISOR. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS NEARLY AS MUCH AS YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR ADVISOR. I cannot emphasize this enough. Grad school with an advisor you get along with will be useful. Grad school with an advisor you hate will be a waste of time.
posted by jacobm at 9:41 PM on November 28, 2004
Ask yourself this question: are you so confident in your talents and imagination that you could be a leader in an academic field?
If not, then what you have to look forward to is lots of work for little payout (both financial and research-wise). Bouncing from state to state for a series of assistant professorships in the hopes of getting on that cherished tenure-track. Publish or perish. Depending on grad students and postdocs, whom you must be able to woo, and trust enough not to micromanage.
When I was finishing up college, I considered briefly getting a PhD. I had done benchwork throughout school. I took a year off and worked in an X-ray crystallography lab at Penn with one of the brightest guys I'd ever met. Truly an all around brilliant dude. That year he was up for tenure. What I noticed was that he spent about 10% of his time actually thinking about research or in the lab. Another 15% was writing papers and dealing with the publication process. The rest was dealing with the tenure committee, and writing grants. In the end, the poor guy got railroaded out of the department because some other tenured prof's feathers were ruffled by some of his results. Had to pack his things and hit the road. This is not an exception to the rule. It's the norm.
As you can guess, I went the clinical route. I still may practice in an academic setting, teach, and do a bit of research, but I don't have to deal with the pressures of praying for long-term results. I get my satisfaction each day, making an impact on people's lives.
For every one happy person in academics there's ten who tried and came to hate it. My advice is if you're not sure which group you'll fall into, do a one-year research fellowship at a place you might consider going to as a grad student. Feel it out. It's an extra year, but it could save you a lifetime of grief, or give you good contacts and feel for a department you might want to become a part of.
posted by drpynchon at 9:49 PM on November 28, 2004 [1 favorite]
If not, then what you have to look forward to is lots of work for little payout (both financial and research-wise). Bouncing from state to state for a series of assistant professorships in the hopes of getting on that cherished tenure-track. Publish or perish. Depending on grad students and postdocs, whom you must be able to woo, and trust enough not to micromanage.
When I was finishing up college, I considered briefly getting a PhD. I had done benchwork throughout school. I took a year off and worked in an X-ray crystallography lab at Penn with one of the brightest guys I'd ever met. Truly an all around brilliant dude. That year he was up for tenure. What I noticed was that he spent about 10% of his time actually thinking about research or in the lab. Another 15% was writing papers and dealing with the publication process. The rest was dealing with the tenure committee, and writing grants. In the end, the poor guy got railroaded out of the department because some other tenured prof's feathers were ruffled by some of his results. Had to pack his things and hit the road. This is not an exception to the rule. It's the norm.
As you can guess, I went the clinical route. I still may practice in an academic setting, teach, and do a bit of research, but I don't have to deal with the pressures of praying for long-term results. I get my satisfaction each day, making an impact on people's lives.
For every one happy person in academics there's ten who tried and came to hate it. My advice is if you're not sure which group you'll fall into, do a one-year research fellowship at a place you might consider going to as a grad student. Feel it out. It's an extra year, but it could save you a lifetime of grief, or give you good contacts and feel for a department you might want to become a part of.
posted by drpynchon at 9:49 PM on November 28, 2004 [1 favorite]
No easy answer, I'm afraid. It depends on so many things. I decided to go to grad school after my M.Sc. because I thought working for an engineering company would not be a real challenge. I am a bit of a geek, so I really enjoyed my studies.
For your academic career I second the importance of a good advisor. You may also want to consider if the school's / department's reputation will help you any further, unless you're a real genius.
Be prepared to be an underpaid academic nomad for years to come (viz. postdoc positions) and work your ass off to get tenure somewhere. Nevertheless I am enjoying it, since it gives you a lot of freedom and changes to develop yourself, travel, etc.
posted by swordfishtrombones at 9:56 PM on November 28, 2004
For your academic career I second the importance of a good advisor. You may also want to consider if the school's / department's reputation will help you any further, unless you're a real genius.
Be prepared to be an underpaid academic nomad for years to come (viz. postdoc positions) and work your ass off to get tenure somewhere. Nevertheless I am enjoying it, since it gives you a lot of freedom and changes to develop yourself, travel, etc.
posted by swordfishtrombones at 9:56 PM on November 28, 2004
Wait... wait... a Reedie psych major on metafilter who isn't me? Wow, I'm suddenly really confused.
posted by hopeless romantique at 11:22 PM on November 28, 2004
posted by hopeless romantique at 11:22 PM on November 28, 2004
So You Want to Go to Grad School? The article is aimed more at the humanities, but you will get the idea.
posted by LarryC at 11:56 PM on November 28, 2004
posted by LarryC at 11:56 PM on November 28, 2004
You speak of grad school as if it's just a chore on your way to making money in academics. If you think that, you'll be a miserable grad student. I'm a fourth-year grad student in math, and I enjoy the position that I'm in right now. The money they pay me is pathetic, but it's enough to live on. On the other hand, this totally kicks the crap out of any 8 to 5 job I can think of. I really enjoy the freedom that I have. If I want to spend three months learning about something that only four people in the world understand, I can do that. If I want to take a few weeks off from research and play Doom 3 or focus on my piano-playing, I can do that too (not that I encourage such behavior in grad students). Even if I never get to be a professor, I don't think that I'll have regrets about going to grad school - I've learned some very interesting things, I've published some stuff, and with any luck I might just come up with something that someone out there will care about. For this reason I'm not really worried about the state of the academic market when I finish my degree. I might just want to do something else anyway.
So, speaking from my experience (which may or may not apply to psychology), going to grad school does not mean that you have to give up on your other interests, in fact I've picked up a few new ones since I got here. Also, I have not encountered any of the elitism you speak of. As others have mentioned, grad students spend most of their time working with their advisors. So if your advisor is not a shmooze-ey, self-congratulatory elitist, then you won't have to deal with any of that, at least while you're in grad school. As for trying to help the world (not that I think that the world is in a bad shape), going into academia might actually be a great way to do that. Academics often come up with ideas that are eventually implemented and help lots of people. I doubt that it's necessary for me to actually list examples of this.
At the end of the day, the only way to find out if you like academia is to go into it. If you go to grad school and find that you hate it, you can always drop out. If you don't go, then you might spend the rest of your life wondering.
posted by epimorph at 12:03 AM on November 29, 2004 [1 favorite]
So, speaking from my experience (which may or may not apply to psychology), going to grad school does not mean that you have to give up on your other interests, in fact I've picked up a few new ones since I got here. Also, I have not encountered any of the elitism you speak of. As others have mentioned, grad students spend most of their time working with their advisors. So if your advisor is not a shmooze-ey, self-congratulatory elitist, then you won't have to deal with any of that, at least while you're in grad school. As for trying to help the world (not that I think that the world is in a bad shape), going into academia might actually be a great way to do that. Academics often come up with ideas that are eventually implemented and help lots of people. I doubt that it's necessary for me to actually list examples of this.
At the end of the day, the only way to find out if you like academia is to go into it. If you go to grad school and find that you hate it, you can always drop out. If you don't go, then you might spend the rest of your life wondering.
posted by epimorph at 12:03 AM on November 29, 2004 [1 favorite]
Wow. You sound just like me two months ago, except I was studying physics. I would have listed exactly the same doubts in a slightly different order.
I decided to become an elementary school teacher instead. Right now I am taking classes for that, and I quit my physics lab job which I hated and took one job teaching math enrichment to middle schoolers and another tutoring kids in reading. My other classes are in things I wanted to learn more about - in my case gender studies.
In four years of college I have never been happier. I like my work - it is fun and rewarding in an immediate way. I am escaping the Ivory Tower somewhat, the competitive pressures of physics are gone, and my life feels like it's mine to create again rather than being a rat race to get to the top of my career according to a very set path. I am enjoying learning in a way that I haven't in a while.
But YMMV. Here are my questions for you:
1. Is graduate school appealing to you in itself? If not, don't go. It is a lot of work and you will be miserable if you are just doing it as a means to an end. You might just decide to put it off for a year. Go teach English somewhere, travel, be in a rock band, take a shit job to be near your friends, whatever. Perspective might help.
2. Is there something you might study/work on in Psychology that would really excite you? If so, all that other stuff might not matter, if not, well, academic jobs are cush once you get tenure but you can probably find something more accomodating in terms of your other desires to do with your life.
3. Is there something else you might want to do instead? If so, that makes walking away from academia easier. If not, more of a reason to stay. Don't assume you already know the answer to this one. Think about it, ask around, see what kinds of work people do in the world. There might be something else.
On preview: epimorph is right, you can always drop out.
posted by mai at 1:00 AM on November 29, 2004
I decided to become an elementary school teacher instead. Right now I am taking classes for that, and I quit my physics lab job which I hated and took one job teaching math enrichment to middle schoolers and another tutoring kids in reading. My other classes are in things I wanted to learn more about - in my case gender studies.
In four years of college I have never been happier. I like my work - it is fun and rewarding in an immediate way. I am escaping the Ivory Tower somewhat, the competitive pressures of physics are gone, and my life feels like it's mine to create again rather than being a rat race to get to the top of my career according to a very set path. I am enjoying learning in a way that I haven't in a while.
But YMMV. Here are my questions for you:
1. Is graduate school appealing to you in itself? If not, don't go. It is a lot of work and you will be miserable if you are just doing it as a means to an end. You might just decide to put it off for a year. Go teach English somewhere, travel, be in a rock band, take a shit job to be near your friends, whatever. Perspective might help.
2. Is there something you might study/work on in Psychology that would really excite you? If so, all that other stuff might not matter, if not, well, academic jobs are cush once you get tenure but you can probably find something more accomodating in terms of your other desires to do with your life.
3. Is there something else you might want to do instead? If so, that makes walking away from academia easier. If not, more of a reason to stay. Don't assume you already know the answer to this one. Think about it, ask around, see what kinds of work people do in the world. There might be something else.
On preview: epimorph is right, you can always drop out.
posted by mai at 1:00 AM on November 29, 2004
Oh and another thing.
The primary concerns of Universities are prestige and money and knowledge for its own sake in a treacherous menage a trios. These interests are often best served by limiting access to knowledge, and focusing on areas of research that are more prestigious rather than those that are more useful/world-improving.
So while I agree with epimorph that academics, who are often great people, can improve the world with their work, I no longer believe that Universities, as institutions, are structured to encourage this.
posted by mai at 1:06 AM on November 29, 2004
The primary concerns of Universities are prestige and money and knowledge for its own sake in a treacherous menage a trios. These interests are often best served by limiting access to knowledge, and focusing on areas of research that are more prestigious rather than those that are more useful/world-improving.
So while I agree with epimorph that academics, who are often great people, can improve the world with their work, I no longer believe that Universities, as institutions, are structured to encourage this.
posted by mai at 1:06 AM on November 29, 2004
I understand all the worries about time management, stress, competition - I'm suffering many of them myself, in my third year of a Ph.d.
That said, the job market issue isn't as bad as everyone makes out. It really depends on what field you are in - Psychology might actually be better than others because it has more outside funding and research (more options for you, and more spaces in universities). Some very interesting psychology research is done in hospitals - not just clinical. I once knew a social psychologist who studied age and disability, in a hospital based epidemiology unit.
But most importantly, if you go to a graduate school which has a good funding plan (which, if you are looking to go to school in the United States, you should definitely only consider), you don't have to worry about the student debt. Your debt will not go up, and will be deferred while you are a full-time student. Your employment prospects cannot go down after a graduate degree, so you if you choose not to complete it, you will have lost time, but not money, and gained experience. If you are looking at direct entry Ph.D. programs, the funding is much better than for masters programs; if you leave after a certain time, most will still grant you a masters.
If you have a professor you feel close to now, especially someone you feel you can speak frankly with, you could ask them for advice. They know their own field best, and will know you better than any of us. Some will gloss over the difficulties, but many are very upfront with them. A favorite professor of mine prepared me with all the advisor horror stories he could imagine; I'm so glad none of them are applicable. Young professors are very good to talk to; older professors are often well-meaning, but went to graduate school at a very different time, and often very different situations (funding, expections-wise). Young academics will have very vivid memories of graduate school. Our current director of graduate studies is just recently tenured, and I think she is doing a very good job because she does have that affiniity to the graduate students.
posted by jb at 2:33 AM on November 29, 2004
That said, the job market issue isn't as bad as everyone makes out. It really depends on what field you are in - Psychology might actually be better than others because it has more outside funding and research (more options for you, and more spaces in universities). Some very interesting psychology research is done in hospitals - not just clinical. I once knew a social psychologist who studied age and disability, in a hospital based epidemiology unit.
But most importantly, if you go to a graduate school which has a good funding plan (which, if you are looking to go to school in the United States, you should definitely only consider), you don't have to worry about the student debt. Your debt will not go up, and will be deferred while you are a full-time student. Your employment prospects cannot go down after a graduate degree, so you if you choose not to complete it, you will have lost time, but not money, and gained experience. If you are looking at direct entry Ph.D. programs, the funding is much better than for masters programs; if you leave after a certain time, most will still grant you a masters.
If you have a professor you feel close to now, especially someone you feel you can speak frankly with, you could ask them for advice. They know their own field best, and will know you better than any of us. Some will gloss over the difficulties, but many are very upfront with them. A favorite professor of mine prepared me with all the advisor horror stories he could imagine; I'm so glad none of them are applicable. Young professors are very good to talk to; older professors are often well-meaning, but went to graduate school at a very different time, and often very different situations (funding, expections-wise). Young academics will have very vivid memories of graduate school. Our current director of graduate studies is just recently tenured, and I think she is doing a very good job because she does have that affiniity to the graduate students.
posted by jb at 2:33 AM on November 29, 2004
Oh - and the ivory tower is no retreat. I think I have learned far more about world issues, including the environment, social policy and development, since beginning graduate school than I would ever have working, and I'm in pre-modern history.
It's not an ivory tower, it is research and education. Which means the purpose is study, and teaching - both of which force you to engage with that "real world" on a constant basis.
I do worry about what kind of influence academics can have. They spend their lives trying to better understand the world, but the anti-intellectual atmosphere in North America means that their opinions (based on years of study) are often dismissed. It is such a waste. It is partly the fault that so much of what happens at that level of research is inaccessible. But it is also true that often people do not want to be told the truth.
But they do have an effect on their students, and on people they do reach. My friend in social psychology has opened up my eyes to the power of stereotypes; just in talking about his research to friends, he helps break down racial prejudices. It's small, but it's important.
mai - I think that is true, about universities being out for prestige, to an extent, but you mustn't underestimate the independence that professors and departments have within the university - the real influence on what will be studied is at the departmental level; in my department, all tenured professors have a vote on something like a new hiring, and the best the university gets is a veto.
posted by jb at 2:44 AM on November 29, 2004
It's not an ivory tower, it is research and education. Which means the purpose is study, and teaching - both of which force you to engage with that "real world" on a constant basis.
I do worry about what kind of influence academics can have. They spend their lives trying to better understand the world, but the anti-intellectual atmosphere in North America means that their opinions (based on years of study) are often dismissed. It is such a waste. It is partly the fault that so much of what happens at that level of research is inaccessible. But it is also true that often people do not want to be told the truth.
But they do have an effect on their students, and on people they do reach. My friend in social psychology has opened up my eyes to the power of stereotypes; just in talking about his research to friends, he helps break down racial prejudices. It's small, but it's important.
mai - I think that is true, about universities being out for prestige, to an extent, but you mustn't underestimate the independence that professors and departments have within the university - the real influence on what will be studied is at the departmental level; in my department, all tenured professors have a vote on something like a new hiring, and the best the university gets is a veto.
posted by jb at 2:44 AM on November 29, 2004
I have no personal experience to relate, but I have a nice quote - one of my favorites:
"And I tell you, if you have the desire for knowledge and the power to give it physical expression, go out and explore...You will sledge nearly alone, but those with whom you sledge will not be shopkeepers; that is worth a good deal. If you march your winter journeys you will have your reward, so long as all you want is a penguin's egg."
-Apsley Cherry-Garrard, in The Worst Journey in the World
posted by loquacious at 4:03 AM on November 29, 2004 [2 favorites]
"And I tell you, if you have the desire for knowledge and the power to give it physical expression, go out and explore...You will sledge nearly alone, but those with whom you sledge will not be shopkeepers; that is worth a good deal. If you march your winter journeys you will have your reward, so long as all you want is a penguin's egg."
-Apsley Cherry-Garrard, in The Worst Journey in the World
posted by loquacious at 4:03 AM on November 29, 2004 [2 favorites]
I agree with much of what jacobm and epimorph had to say. What they say about choosing a supervisor/mentor being highly important cannot be underemphasised, but first you have to know what you want from a supervisor. Some will be very hands off and let you basically go your own way with your PhD, if you can work on this basis and actually produce the goods then this can be beneficial, then fine, if you really can't then you will end up in the shit. Other supervisors will be much more hands on and will want to see you regularly to check things are going ok make sure things are heading in the right direction, you may find this useful, it is the recommended model for PhD supervision. Some supervisors can take it too far however and may micromanage you, which likely you will not enjoy. It may help you if you can talk to your preferred academic before joining the course to work out what their supervision will actually involve. The needs for supervisor oversight will also vary with regard to the nature of the PhD that you are doing. Picking your own subject with the humanities or social sciences for example may give you more control than if you are operating effectively as a research assistant on a specific science project which has funding aiming to carry out specific work.
Having an 'elite' supervisor is also a bit of a gamble. Friends of mine have worked for a big name in their field and all it means is that they never see him, he doesn't know who they are, he gets his name on all their papers, they likely won't get any decent contacts out of him and if they do anything decent he'll steal the glory. On the other hand I work for someone who is a big name in our field but is generous and it's meant good introductions and networking opportunities and access to people and opportunities that would otherwise not have been possible.
posted by biffa at 5:46 AM on November 29, 2004
Having an 'elite' supervisor is also a bit of a gamble. Friends of mine have worked for a big name in their field and all it means is that they never see him, he doesn't know who they are, he gets his name on all their papers, they likely won't get any decent contacts out of him and if they do anything decent he'll steal the glory. On the other hand I work for someone who is a big name in our field but is generous and it's meant good introductions and networking opportunities and access to people and opportunities that would otherwise not have been possible.
posted by biffa at 5:46 AM on November 29, 2004
Im a year and a bit into my MA in Sociology, and I have already been advised of an opening at my University of an Academic Assistant job when I am finished, that would pay probably double the income I would have started with if I had only my BA in Sociology. So you know, if I wanted to stop, there is a pretty decent job for me waiting. Enticing to say the least, but I am not going to apply so I can 1) teach overseas for a bit (I am B-U-R-N-E-D out), then 2) figure out if I want to even pursue a PhD.
When I started, I was really sure of my path, but now that I have a bit more incite into this career, I am not so sure. The job seems really alienating at times, and a good number of profs that I know seem like really unhappy people.
Also, my advisor rules. He is young, energetic, and very helpful. I couldn't be happier with him, and even though he is not a big name working in a big university, I think he has that kind of future. Plus, as he says, prestige only goes so far - you have to have good work, and you have to know how to work the system.
posted by Quartermass at 6:52 AM on November 29, 2004
When I started, I was really sure of my path, but now that I have a bit more incite into this career, I am not so sure. The job seems really alienating at times, and a good number of profs that I know seem like really unhappy people.
Also, my advisor rules. He is young, energetic, and very helpful. I couldn't be happier with him, and even though he is not a big name working in a big university, I think he has that kind of future. Plus, as he says, prestige only goes so far - you have to have good work, and you have to know how to work the system.
posted by Quartermass at 6:52 AM on November 29, 2004
Some random thoughts:
1. Don't have any illusions about the academic world. Don't assume that hard work will automatically be rewarded; don't assume that the best students will get the best jobs; and don't assume that academics are always nice people. (From what you say, it sounds as though you are free of these illusions, which is a good start.)
2. At the same time, don't despise the academic profession. For all its drawbacks, an academic career is still highly desirable in many ways. It gives you more flexibility than many other jobs; it allows you quite a lot of free time; it gives you a lot of control over your work, and frees you from the tyranny of the line manager constantly looking over your shoulder. It also attracts a lot of thoughtful and congenial people who are dissatisfied with the monotony of corporate culture.
3. I understand your concern about ivory towers. I am a passionate defender of pure scholarship, but I do recognise that working all day on Greek red-figure pottery, or the nerve-endings of frogs, does tend to leave you somewhat remote from the concerns of ordinary life. There are ways of getting round this: e.g. when I was doing my PhD, I spent one morning a week working in a drop-in centre for homeless people. I don't know whether it did much to help the homeless, but it certainly did a lot to help me.
4. If you are thinking of an academic career, it is essential to have an academic mentor/confessor. It needs to be someone whose advice you trust; someone who knows their way around the academic world, and who can advise you on your chances of getting an academic job. (Often, but not always, this role is filled by one's PhD supervisor. The trouble is that a good PhD supervisor will want to encourage you, and may not be able to bring themselves to tell you that you are setting yourself up for disappointment.)
5. Try to take the long view: ask yourself what you would like to be doing in ten, twenty, thirty years' time, and then consider what is the best way of getting there. In particular, ask yourself how far you would be prepared to make sacrifices in your career for the sake of a good lifestyle, and how far you would be prepared to make sacrifices in your lifestyle for the sake of a good career. This may help you identify what is really important to you. (Be warned, this is not as easy as it sounds. It can be incredibly difficult to know your own mind.)
6. It is never too early to start thinking about jobs. From the very beginning of your PhD, you should make it a rule to check the job advertisements every week, and update your CV at regular intervals.
7. If you want an academic career, then go for it. But always have a Plan B. Be aware that the academic profession is highly competitive, and that getting an academic job is partly a matter of luck. Have an alternative in mind, just in case the academic career doesn't work out. And always remember: failure to get an academic job is not a reflection on your intellectual skills or your worthiness as a person.
8. Personal note: I applied unsuccessfully for over 50 jobs before finally deciding to move out of the academic profession. But I don't regret the time I spent in academic research and teaching. It was enormously fulfilling, and I'm glad to have done it.
posted by verstegan at 7:23 AM on November 29, 2004 [1 favorite]
1. Don't have any illusions about the academic world. Don't assume that hard work will automatically be rewarded; don't assume that the best students will get the best jobs; and don't assume that academics are always nice people. (From what you say, it sounds as though you are free of these illusions, which is a good start.)
2. At the same time, don't despise the academic profession. For all its drawbacks, an academic career is still highly desirable in many ways. It gives you more flexibility than many other jobs; it allows you quite a lot of free time; it gives you a lot of control over your work, and frees you from the tyranny of the line manager constantly looking over your shoulder. It also attracts a lot of thoughtful and congenial people who are dissatisfied with the monotony of corporate culture.
3. I understand your concern about ivory towers. I am a passionate defender of pure scholarship, but I do recognise that working all day on Greek red-figure pottery, or the nerve-endings of frogs, does tend to leave you somewhat remote from the concerns of ordinary life. There are ways of getting round this: e.g. when I was doing my PhD, I spent one morning a week working in a drop-in centre for homeless people. I don't know whether it did much to help the homeless, but it certainly did a lot to help me.
4. If you are thinking of an academic career, it is essential to have an academic mentor/confessor. It needs to be someone whose advice you trust; someone who knows their way around the academic world, and who can advise you on your chances of getting an academic job. (Often, but not always, this role is filled by one's PhD supervisor. The trouble is that a good PhD supervisor will want to encourage you, and may not be able to bring themselves to tell you that you are setting yourself up for disappointment.)
5. Try to take the long view: ask yourself what you would like to be doing in ten, twenty, thirty years' time, and then consider what is the best way of getting there. In particular, ask yourself how far you would be prepared to make sacrifices in your career for the sake of a good lifestyle, and how far you would be prepared to make sacrifices in your lifestyle for the sake of a good career. This may help you identify what is really important to you. (Be warned, this is not as easy as it sounds. It can be incredibly difficult to know your own mind.)
6. It is never too early to start thinking about jobs. From the very beginning of your PhD, you should make it a rule to check the job advertisements every week, and update your CV at regular intervals.
7. If you want an academic career, then go for it. But always have a Plan B. Be aware that the academic profession is highly competitive, and that getting an academic job is partly a matter of luck. Have an alternative in mind, just in case the academic career doesn't work out. And always remember: failure to get an academic job is not a reflection on your intellectual skills or your worthiness as a person.
8. Personal note: I applied unsuccessfully for over 50 jobs before finally deciding to move out of the academic profession. But I don't regret the time I spent in academic research and teaching. It was enormously fulfilling, and I'm glad to have done it.
posted by verstegan at 7:23 AM on November 29, 2004 [1 favorite]
Be aware that the academic profession is highly competitive, and that getting an academic job is partly a matter of luck.
I have a theory that within each academic field there are choke points at which there is a large amount of competition, and that this can be much reduced at other times in the career. My feeling is that different choke points for different fields. For example, it seems to me that competition in say Theatre studies has a fairly early choke point as there is so little funding available for PhD studies, but that things get better after this. Would others agree or disagree with this?
posted by biffa at 8:21 AM on November 29, 2004
I have a theory that within each academic field there are choke points at which there is a large amount of competition, and that this can be much reduced at other times in the career. My feeling is that different choke points for different fields. For example, it seems to me that competition in say Theatre studies has a fairly early choke point as there is so little funding available for PhD studies, but that things get better after this. Would others agree or disagree with this?
posted by biffa at 8:21 AM on November 29, 2004
I was in the academic world as a psychologist/researcher and had encounters with people who were just interested in stuffing their CVs to puff up their egos, and I had encounters with people who were passionate, committed, creative, and interested in solving the world's problems.
Ultimately, I came to believe that academia was not for me, as everything depends on publications and I really didn't care that much about focusing so much on the whole publication thing.
Fortunately, the psychology doctorate is a pretty flexible PhD, and I've gotten jobs managing clinical programs, doing evaluation research, directing research and training programs, and other kinds of applied social science research, and doing part time private practice. I also think that there's a place for psychologists in lots of other fields, like HCI, etc. So, on the whole, I think the psychology PhD leaves you with more flexibility than other doctorate degrees which only have employment opportunities in academia.
posted by jasper411 at 10:18 AM on November 29, 2004
Ultimately, I came to believe that academia was not for me, as everything depends on publications and I really didn't care that much about focusing so much on the whole publication thing.
Fortunately, the psychology doctorate is a pretty flexible PhD, and I've gotten jobs managing clinical programs, doing evaluation research, directing research and training programs, and other kinds of applied social science research, and doing part time private practice. I also think that there's a place for psychologists in lots of other fields, like HCI, etc. So, on the whole, I think the psychology PhD leaves you with more flexibility than other doctorate degrees which only have employment opportunities in academia.
posted by jasper411 at 10:18 AM on November 29, 2004
I have a PhD and am in the early stages of a career in the social sciences. I think that verstegan's comments are spot on and don't have much to add besides something that I tell everyone who is thinking about graduate school: Do not go to graduate school unless you can truly say that you LOVE what you will be studying. Academic work is seldom a means to an end; it is an end in itself. Few people in academia make serious money at it; few are able to save the world through their work; few have real job security, even fewer have a real choice of where to live. Ultimately love of what you do is the only thing that will sustain you.
So ask yourself this: do I love this work enough that I would be willing to go to a college I have never heard of, in a town in the middle of nowhere, being paid barely enough to live on, just for the opportunity to do my own work? If the answer is yes, then go for it. If not, then think seriously about taking a few years - maybe a few decades - off before going to grad school.
posted by googly at 10:37 AM on November 29, 2004 [1 favorite]
So ask yourself this: do I love this work enough that I would be willing to go to a college I have never heard of, in a town in the middle of nowhere, being paid barely enough to live on, just for the opportunity to do my own work? If the answer is yes, then go for it. If not, then think seriously about taking a few years - maybe a few decades - off before going to grad school.
posted by googly at 10:37 AM on November 29, 2004 [1 favorite]
it's not easy. both i and my partner have phds. i am the more confident one, but she's the one that kept with it to tenure. i left and got a real job after a couple of postdocs. for the reasons you stated.
in fact everything you write seems pretty much on the money, so i don't think there's much i can add that helps. except that, at least in my experience, moving to a different job is not that hard. i don't think you lose anything by doing a phd, apart from the money you'd earn otherwise. and it's pretty interesting.
another way of saying the same thing - i've realised that neither academia nor any other kind of "work" is what life is all about, really. life - whatever it is - continues despite the decisions you make. maybe i've drifted at random too much, but from my viewpoint now, i think you may be over-estimating how important this decision is. you're not "condemning" yourself to anything, either way. so give yourself a break - you've clearly got the details clear, now let your subconscious worry over the conclusion. no doubt you'll wake up in a few days and a decision will just feel right...
posted by andrew cooke at 10:48 AM on November 29, 2004
in fact everything you write seems pretty much on the money, so i don't think there's much i can add that helps. except that, at least in my experience, moving to a different job is not that hard. i don't think you lose anything by doing a phd, apart from the money you'd earn otherwise. and it's pretty interesting.
another way of saying the same thing - i've realised that neither academia nor any other kind of "work" is what life is all about, really. life - whatever it is - continues despite the decisions you make. maybe i've drifted at random too much, but from my viewpoint now, i think you may be over-estimating how important this decision is. you're not "condemning" yourself to anything, either way. so give yourself a break - you've clearly got the details clear, now let your subconscious worry over the conclusion. no doubt you'll wake up in a few days and a decision will just feel right...
posted by andrew cooke at 10:48 AM on November 29, 2004
Do not go to graduate school unless you can truly say that you LOVE what you will be studying.
Realize, however, that at some point in your graduate work, you will come to HATE what you are studying. And at that point, it's just a matter of soldiering on. If you're lucky, you'll come to love it again, but it might not matter, as your training will give you the tools to search out and recognize the value in new areas of study.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:54 PM on November 29, 2004
Realize, however, that at some point in your graduate work, you will come to HATE what you are studying. And at that point, it's just a matter of soldiering on. If you're lucky, you'll come to love it again, but it might not matter, as your training will give you the tools to search out and recognize the value in new areas of study.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:54 PM on November 29, 2004
I didn't read any of the above. My advice is to stick in school. Even if you do want a professional job, go into Human Factors design or something. Talk to your counselor. Believe me, the degree will help you.
And.. keep in mind ALL jobs suck to some degree. School will always suck to some degree.
Stay in school. Talk with your counselor often about job possibilities. Find some career related to what you have studied that you can get excited about, and then shift your studies and degree towards that.
My advice: Don't stop the education, but find a real job you can get afterward.
posted by xammerboy at 1:48 PM on November 29, 2004
And.. keep in mind ALL jobs suck to some degree. School will always suck to some degree.
Stay in school. Talk with your counselor often about job possibilities. Find some career related to what you have studied that you can get excited about, and then shift your studies and degree towards that.
My advice: Don't stop the education, but find a real job you can get afterward.
posted by xammerboy at 1:48 PM on November 29, 2004
I think in many ways these questions will never go away. Some people are lucky enough to just always "know" what they want to do; others of us pull apart the pros and cons relentlessly and will feel differently different days of the week. You are lucky to have askme, though - I wish i'd gotten a bit more advice before returning to grad school (just on practical matters - importance of advisors, availabiity of funding, etc).
I took about five years off between BA and the phd program, and worked in the "real world", and came to realize the real world is just as out of touch as the academic world, but just in different ways. You can't do everything. I sometimes wish academics recognize their own elitism/etc, but in the 'real world' I was commonly dismayed by my coworkers not having ever read about/thought about some idea, so... you have to find your own balance and deal with the ways your peers spill too far over one side or the other of your preferred domain.
I basically share all your concerns, but for the most part I think I've made the right choice, because I do feel like I am bettering myself, like what I do from day to day is not just treading water, which I often felt in my job job life (I worked as a graphic designer, but was not in a position to be particularly innovative or anything - it was enjoyable, but not something worth looking back over and the end of a life and saying, so, that's what I did.)
Do you enjoy teaching? I've found that can be quite satisfying, and also alleviates some of the "specialization" issue, since part of your job is teaching more introductory stuff to undergrads.
I think you could easily take a year or two to travel, try out the 'real world', and consider other options, though. Wouldn't recommend putting it off as long as I did, but it will hardly hurt your career to let some of your thoughts percolate a bit, and to explore other areas that might be interesting. Better to go for it because you've decided you really want it than because you can't think what else to do.
posted by mdn at 1:53 PM on November 29, 2004
I took about five years off between BA and the phd program, and worked in the "real world", and came to realize the real world is just as out of touch as the academic world, but just in different ways. You can't do everything. I sometimes wish academics recognize their own elitism/etc, but in the 'real world' I was commonly dismayed by my coworkers not having ever read about/thought about some idea, so... you have to find your own balance and deal with the ways your peers spill too far over one side or the other of your preferred domain.
I basically share all your concerns, but for the most part I think I've made the right choice, because I do feel like I am bettering myself, like what I do from day to day is not just treading water, which I often felt in my job job life (I worked as a graphic designer, but was not in a position to be particularly innovative or anything - it was enjoyable, but not something worth looking back over and the end of a life and saying, so, that's what I did.)
Do you enjoy teaching? I've found that can be quite satisfying, and also alleviates some of the "specialization" issue, since part of your job is teaching more introductory stuff to undergrads.
I think you could easily take a year or two to travel, try out the 'real world', and consider other options, though. Wouldn't recommend putting it off as long as I did, but it will hardly hurt your career to let some of your thoughts percolate a bit, and to explore other areas that might be interesting. Better to go for it because you've decided you really want it than because you can't think what else to do.
posted by mdn at 1:53 PM on November 29, 2004
I would tend to advise against it, but then I had a lousy grad school experience. I suggest reading through the archives at Invisible Adjunct, where there is discussion of grad school and teaching jobs from every conceivable point of view. And for heaven's sake don't do it if you have to borrow more money.
posted by languagehat at 3:42 PM on November 29, 2004
posted by languagehat at 3:42 PM on November 29, 2004
I got a liberal arts BA, worked a couple of years doing molecular biology in an antibiotics research & discovery pharma, am trying to finish up my MSc in an immunology-related field, planning on earning a PhD in Neurology and going the teaching/research route.
I can't disageee with anything that everyone else has posted already and agree strongly with some of the above. Points that I think are particularly important include
a) your relationship with your supervisor (get to know them before you sign on!) and
b) no matter how much you might love the research topic, you're going to hate it at some point (but, standard deviations willing, it'll work out).
Working in a large lab with a well known supervisor/principle investigator may mean that you get your name on more papers as a 2nd/3rd/4th/&c author and the social atmosphere should be better (more people around the same age as you). Working in a smaller lab could pay off better, as you might be working on a newer or more niche topic such that you have the potential to publish in more prestigious papers or that there will be less people who may have a self-interest in disagreeing/supressing you. YMMV
The pay is going to be a pittance, but teaching-assistanceships (TAing) will help with the rent and the beer - this is something that should be discussed with the supervisor before starting (TAing, not necessarily the beer).
'< 'semi tongue-in-cheek'>'
Oh yeah, if you don't already have a girlfriend (assuming that you're a hetero guy) the vast majority of the women you'll meet academically will either be unattractive, are already in a good relationship, or married.
'< '/semi tongue-in-cheek'>'
posted by PurplePorpoise at 3:55 PM on November 29, 2004
I can't disageee with anything that everyone else has posted already and agree strongly with some of the above. Points that I think are particularly important include
a) your relationship with your supervisor (get to know them before you sign on!) and
b) no matter how much you might love the research topic, you're going to hate it at some point (but, standard deviations willing, it'll work out).
Working in a large lab with a well known supervisor/principle investigator may mean that you get your name on more papers as a 2nd/3rd/4th/&c author and the social atmosphere should be better (more people around the same age as you). Working in a smaller lab could pay off better, as you might be working on a newer or more niche topic such that you have the potential to publish in more prestigious papers or that there will be less people who may have a self-interest in disagreeing/supressing you. YMMV
The pay is going to be a pittance, but teaching-assistanceships (TAing) will help with the rent and the beer - this is something that should be discussed with the supervisor before starting (TAing, not necessarily the beer).
'< 'semi tongue-in-cheek'>'
Oh yeah, if you don't already have a girlfriend (assuming that you're a hetero guy) the vast majority of the women you'll meet academically will either be unattractive, are already in a good relationship, or married.
'< '/semi tongue-in-cheek'>'
posted by PurplePorpoise at 3:55 PM on November 29, 2004
Whoops, sorry, I noticed that you're a Sarah. I am in no way implying that you are unattractive, with an SO, or married.
/mortified
posted by PurplePorpoise at 3:59 PM on November 29, 2004
/mortified
posted by PurplePorpoise at 3:59 PM on November 29, 2004
the vast majority of the women you'll meet academically will either be unattractive, are already in a good relationship, or married.
The good news is, they'll likely be hella smart, which goes a long way toward making them hawt.
posted by kindall at 4:23 PM on November 29, 2004
The good news is, they'll likely be hella smart, which goes a long way toward making them hawt.
posted by kindall at 4:23 PM on November 29, 2004
At the risk of duplicating other postings (or contents of links):
Getting a PhD isn't like getting a BA - it's not just taking (more) courses. You have to find a subject to write a dissertation about. If you can't handle unstructured tasks and time - if you can't do things except under the pressure of external deadlines, like a date of an exam, for example - then a PhD isn't something you should pursue. [Exception, for sake of completeness: in some hard sciences, such a biochemistry, graduate students can get a PhD by working on a small part a research area of a professor, and still get a fair amount of direction - but creativity is still a big factor].
Second, what percentage of awarded PhDs in the area you're thinking of applying [and aren't you getting close to missing deadlines for Fall 2005 semester applications?] actually get a tenure-track appointment (within, say, three years of getting the PhD)? Don't think that a PhD equals an academic job. In the social sciences, for example, supply greatly exceeds demand.
Third, when/if you do get around to applying, you might ask the departments that you're considering to tell you what percentage of admitted graduate students actually get a PhD within (say) six years? If they don't know that, or won't tell you, consider yourself warned.
posted by WestCoaster at 4:40 PM on November 29, 2004
Getting a PhD isn't like getting a BA - it's not just taking (more) courses. You have to find a subject to write a dissertation about. If you can't handle unstructured tasks and time - if you can't do things except under the pressure of external deadlines, like a date of an exam, for example - then a PhD isn't something you should pursue. [Exception, for sake of completeness: in some hard sciences, such a biochemistry, graduate students can get a PhD by working on a small part a research area of a professor, and still get a fair amount of direction - but creativity is still a big factor].
Second, what percentage of awarded PhDs in the area you're thinking of applying [and aren't you getting close to missing deadlines for Fall 2005 semester applications?] actually get a tenure-track appointment (within, say, three years of getting the PhD)? Don't think that a PhD equals an academic job. In the social sciences, for example, supply greatly exceeds demand.
Third, when/if you do get around to applying, you might ask the departments that you're considering to tell you what percentage of admitted graduate students actually get a PhD within (say) six years? If they don't know that, or won't tell you, consider yourself warned.
posted by WestCoaster at 4:40 PM on November 29, 2004
Response by poster: Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts, everyone - I really appreciate it. (I'd love to start replying to you all individually, but I know I'd end up writing waaaay too much in a dying thread...)
I'm going to take a year or more off and try to get some new experiences/perspectives and develop a clearer idea of what I want from life and what sorts of things make me happy. After that, well, we'll see.
posted by introcosm at 5:56 PM on November 29, 2004
I'm going to take a year or more off and try to get some new experiences/perspectives and develop a clearer idea of what I want from life and what sorts of things make me happy. After that, well, we'll see.
posted by introcosm at 5:56 PM on November 29, 2004
kindall very true, the part about t-i-c was from personal experiences. Smart, knowledgeable (those != equivalent) women who know what they want to do with themselves.
Better to have loved and lost? I'm in the tried and lost column. Just seems that everyone *cool* was already taken. Maybe I should work on the undergrads?
introcosm I "took" a few years off, but the perspective tilted too far towards academia. I hated working in industry with only a bachelors. Doing other people's work, no say in what I was doing (although I was given a long-ish leash), and had to put up with a lot of BS politics (not that there aren't any in "academia").
Asking us here might help you get a feel for what's out there, but I think that checking in with some PI's/potential-supervisors might be fruitful. Who knows? You might find someone who's got grant money, to support a student, but doesn't kick in until a year or two out. Gives you an opportunity to mess around, and still time to get to know what you will be studying - so that you're better prepared to write grants for/to-supplement your salary.
/dying threads? There's always PM.
posted by PurplePorpoise at 8:24 PM on November 29, 2004
Better to have loved and lost? I'm in the tried and lost column. Just seems that everyone *cool* was already taken. Maybe I should work on the undergrads?
introcosm I "took" a few years off, but the perspective tilted too far towards academia. I hated working in industry with only a bachelors. Doing other people's work, no say in what I was doing (although I was given a long-ish leash), and had to put up with a lot of BS politics (not that there aren't any in "academia").
Asking us here might help you get a feel for what's out there, but I think that checking in with some PI's/potential-supervisors might be fruitful. Who knows? You might find someone who's got grant money, to support a student, but doesn't kick in until a year or two out. Gives you an opportunity to mess around, and still time to get to know what you will be studying - so that you're better prepared to write grants for/to-supplement your salary.
/dying threads? There's always PM.
posted by PurplePorpoise at 8:24 PM on November 29, 2004
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:29 PM on November 28, 2004 [1 favorite]