How do I get my SO to have better conversations?
December 18, 2008 8:41 AM Subscribe
Two parter 1) Do I have the correct expectations about conversation and common interests with my significant other? 2) How can I get her to have more, deeper, conversations, debates, etc?
I love my S.O. dearly - she has a ton of patience with me and appreciates me. Heck, she even plays videogames with me and likes Sci-Fi. However I feel there is a disconnect.
She doesn't want to talk about the state of the world...as in have conversations about what going on in the news. Often this is because she just can't handle it - I can watch a news report with dead bodies, she cannot. But it also means she doesn't want to discuss say the latest scientific stuff. Or if we debate about a movie, she gets frustrated and doesn't debate back - she just wants to stop.
Furthermore she doesn't have a lot of interests so its not that I am ignoring her interests in say, knitting or cars, to talk about mine. So often we end up in silence.
So
1) Are my expectations of all these cool conversations insane after being married 3 years? Is sitting in front of the TV 3 night out of the week okay and normal? Am I nuts to think we should go out more during the week?
2) How can I encourage her to become more engaged in the world, despite the pain that is out there. How can I interest her in science, or global warming beyond "hey we recycle"?
3) Is there anything I can do to help her find outside interests? Or more friends that are not simply spouses of my friends or along those lines?
If it matters we are both professionals in the 'burbs outside a decent sized city in our 30's. She can sometimes be a bit sensitive about things so that also works against me.
I just don't know if I can remain in this situation for 50+ years...
I love my S.O. dearly - she has a ton of patience with me and appreciates me. Heck, she even plays videogames with me and likes Sci-Fi. However I feel there is a disconnect.
She doesn't want to talk about the state of the world...as in have conversations about what going on in the news. Often this is because she just can't handle it - I can watch a news report with dead bodies, she cannot. But it also means she doesn't want to discuss say the latest scientific stuff. Or if we debate about a movie, she gets frustrated and doesn't debate back - she just wants to stop.
Furthermore she doesn't have a lot of interests so its not that I am ignoring her interests in say, knitting or cars, to talk about mine. So often we end up in silence.
So
1) Are my expectations of all these cool conversations insane after being married 3 years? Is sitting in front of the TV 3 night out of the week okay and normal? Am I nuts to think we should go out more during the week?
2) How can I encourage her to become more engaged in the world, despite the pain that is out there. How can I interest her in science, or global warming beyond "hey we recycle"?
3) Is there anything I can do to help her find outside interests? Or more friends that are not simply spouses of my friends or along those lines?
If it matters we are both professionals in the 'burbs outside a decent sized city in our 30's. She can sometimes be a bit sensitive about things so that also works against me.
I just don't know if I can remain in this situation for 50+ years...
This is just one note, not addressing your whole topic. I had an ex who would like to debate about things, movies, tv, whatever. We'd start talking about somethingorother and we'd hit some point of disagreement and his whole demeanor changed. He'd suddenly be like "Why do you THINK that?!?!" and go dfrom being my partner who I was having a casual conversation with into my adversary and basically wouldn't stop the conversation or change the topic until we'd arrived at some mutual understanding or I'd proven him wrong or he'd proven me wrong. I did not find these conversations fun. I don't mind having spirited disagreements but I didn't like my partner turning on me all of the sudden and becoming a "win at all costs" person. He'd basically stop being my boyfriend, was how I looked at it, and stop seeing me as his girlfriend.
For me some of these debateworthy topics -- global warming is a great example -- is something I care about enough to get informed about but I do NOT care enough that I want to fight with someone about it. And for me, unless it's pretty clear otherwise, debates have a way of seeming like fights. I grew up in a household where people fought with each other all the time and said terrible things to each other and so what I personally, was looking for in a relationship is a partnership where me and my SO were more or less on the same "side" I didn't mind if we didn't agree on topics, but I didn't want any of our disagreements (except really important relationship type stuff that needed to be worked out) to turn into ongoing fights.
I'm aware that this is a personal value of mine and not some "this is the right way everyone should behave" morality stance, but I wonder if your SO is similar in that regard. Maybe she just doesn't find debating fun? If what you want is to talk about issues in a spirit of mutual exploration, that's one thing, If you're loking for someone to really mix it up with in a "Well why DON'T you think Obama is going to have a positive affect on women's reproductive rights??" way, you may need to find someone else to have those conversations with.
The larger issue of her not really having interests is different. What do the two of you share? It could be non-talky things like maybe you both like to cook, or reupholster furniture, or it could be that she, like many people in the US this time of year, is just feeling a little subdued and depressed and not so into things in which case you have to sort of ascertain if this is a temporary thing (and then hunker down and power through it) or a larger scale issue with her life in which case you need to make some choices about whether you approach this as a couple or you decide how you want ot handle this on your own.
There's no "normal" in relationship situations generally speaking, there's what the two of you like. You have said this sort of isn't what you like, I guess the next question is whether this is what she likes or what she is looking for in a relationship. You say she's sensitive but is it possible there's a middle ground there and she's viewing you from her perspective and it's seeming like you're insensitive?
posted by jessamyn at 9:01 AM on December 18, 2008 [22 favorites]
For me some of these debateworthy topics -- global warming is a great example -- is something I care about enough to get informed about but I do NOT care enough that I want to fight with someone about it. And for me, unless it's pretty clear otherwise, debates have a way of seeming like fights. I grew up in a household where people fought with each other all the time and said terrible things to each other and so what I personally, was looking for in a relationship is a partnership where me and my SO were more or less on the same "side" I didn't mind if we didn't agree on topics, but I didn't want any of our disagreements (except really important relationship type stuff that needed to be worked out) to turn into ongoing fights.
I'm aware that this is a personal value of mine and not some "this is the right way everyone should behave" morality stance, but I wonder if your SO is similar in that regard. Maybe she just doesn't find debating fun? If what you want is to talk about issues in a spirit of mutual exploration, that's one thing, If you're loking for someone to really mix it up with in a "Well why DON'T you think Obama is going to have a positive affect on women's reproductive rights??" way, you may need to find someone else to have those conversations with.
The larger issue of her not really having interests is different. What do the two of you share? It could be non-talky things like maybe you both like to cook, or reupholster furniture, or it could be that she, like many people in the US this time of year, is just feeling a little subdued and depressed and not so into things in which case you have to sort of ascertain if this is a temporary thing (and then hunker down and power through it) or a larger scale issue with her life in which case you need to make some choices about whether you approach this as a couple or you decide how you want ot handle this on your own.
There's no "normal" in relationship situations generally speaking, there's what the two of you like. You have said this sort of isn't what you like, I guess the next question is whether this is what she likes or what she is looking for in a relationship. You say she's sensitive but is it possible there's a middle ground there and she's viewing you from her perspective and it's seeming like you're insensitive?
posted by jessamyn at 9:01 AM on December 18, 2008 [22 favorites]
Wellll...
Unfortunately, some people just flat out are not interested in debating. They find it akin to fighting, and it makes them uncomfortable, or they feel intimidated (ie, less smart than the person they're talking with). If your wife falls into these categories, it's unlikely you can get her to change.
If she's just flat out not interested ("can't handle" all the bad news, for example) you might be able to get her to change that, but I'm at a loss for how. In any relationship where I've had this problem, the person just sort of came around on their own when an issue popped up that they were interested in.
I think you need to have a pretty serious talk with her about this, though. If this issue could really be a dealbreaker for your relationship, I think you might need to lighten up a bit, find others to debate with and talk the poliitcs with (of your same gender, preferably, so she doesn't feel threatened).
To specifically answer some of your questions.
1) Yes, I think 3 nights in front of the TV is perfectly normal. I don't like it myself, but what I know of my friends and family, 3 nights of non-stop TV would be on the light side.
2) Rather than engaging her in debates, try just chatting with her about things you find interesting. See if she'd like to read Digg, or The Onion, or other "fun" news sites, or watch The Daily Show together. (SNL's election coverage is what got my boyfriend interested in politics.)
3) Definitely encourage her to find outside interests. She can make friends by taking classes or joining groups like book clubs or crafty groups or community theater or whatever she's into.
You should remember though--she might be perfectly happy with her life, and if that's the case, you might need to back off a little. You're really sending off want-to-change-her vibes.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 9:02 AM on December 18, 2008
Unfortunately, some people just flat out are not interested in debating. They find it akin to fighting, and it makes them uncomfortable, or they feel intimidated (ie, less smart than the person they're talking with). If your wife falls into these categories, it's unlikely you can get her to change.
If she's just flat out not interested ("can't handle" all the bad news, for example) you might be able to get her to change that, but I'm at a loss for how. In any relationship where I've had this problem, the person just sort of came around on their own when an issue popped up that they were interested in.
I think you need to have a pretty serious talk with her about this, though. If this issue could really be a dealbreaker for your relationship, I think you might need to lighten up a bit, find others to debate with and talk the poliitcs with (of your same gender, preferably, so she doesn't feel threatened).
To specifically answer some of your questions.
1) Yes, I think 3 nights in front of the TV is perfectly normal. I don't like it myself, but what I know of my friends and family, 3 nights of non-stop TV would be on the light side.
2) Rather than engaging her in debates, try just chatting with her about things you find interesting. See if she'd like to read Digg, or The Onion, or other "fun" news sites, or watch The Daily Show together. (SNL's election coverage is what got my boyfriend interested in politics.)
3) Definitely encourage her to find outside interests. She can make friends by taking classes or joining groups like book clubs or crafty groups or community theater or whatever she's into.
You should remember though--she might be perfectly happy with her life, and if that's the case, you might need to back off a little. You're really sending off want-to-change-her vibes.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 9:02 AM on December 18, 2008
Your closing line sounds a bit like you've debated checking out of this marriage already. Do you think she feels the same way?
You've state a lot of commonality between you; and from this one could assume that there is a decent amount of communication, despite being unable to the news. I'm wondering if you couldn't just ask her if she is happy staying home. You don't specifically state that you are unhappy, but if you are then I think you might do yourself well to start by informing her of this instead of slowly raising your existential dread by thinking often of the 50+ years of suburban platitude or whatever.
Certainly there are things you can do to help her find outside interests, but she's going to have to want to have outside interests first. Start by conferring with her, figuring out exactly where the both of you stand.
posted by johnbaskerville at 9:04 AM on December 18, 2008
You've state a lot of commonality between you; and from this one could assume that there is a decent amount of communication, despite being unable to the news. I'm wondering if you couldn't just ask her if she is happy staying home. You don't specifically state that you are unhappy, but if you are then I think you might do yourself well to start by informing her of this instead of slowly raising your existential dread by thinking often of the 50+ years of suburban platitude or whatever.
Certainly there are things you can do to help her find outside interests, but she's going to have to want to have outside interests first. Start by conferring with her, figuring out exactly where the both of you stand.
posted by johnbaskerville at 9:04 AM on December 18, 2008
One thing that is amazing for myself and boypublisher is to listen to the same podcasts (Radiolab, TAL, for example). Usually the topics are accessible, but the particular stories are things neither of knew much about.
This does a few things:
1. It evens out the knowledge base. No more feeling like I am in a minefield, about to make a comment that is obviously wrong or stupid.
2. It gets us both excited about the same ideas, so we want to talk to each other about them. (Sorry to be plugging Radiolab, but it's great because the hosts get excited, and it is infectious.)
3. It sets the tone as being "hey this is neat..." and "yeah, and what if this other thing...." rather than adversarial or argumentative. The shows lend themselves to learning and sharing, not duking out what the "right" thing / theory is.
I've found this has made it possible for us to also chat more about the news and other stuff, because we've established a tone and approach of sharing and learning that works. That approach has ended the fear of the "minefield", because now it is the person who knows the least who wins -- they have the most to gain!!
posted by girlpublisher at 9:09 AM on December 18, 2008 [15 favorites]
This does a few things:
1. It evens out the knowledge base. No more feeling like I am in a minefield, about to make a comment that is obviously wrong or stupid.
2. It gets us both excited about the same ideas, so we want to talk to each other about them. (Sorry to be plugging Radiolab, but it's great because the hosts get excited, and it is infectious.)
3. It sets the tone as being "hey this is neat..." and "yeah, and what if this other thing...." rather than adversarial or argumentative. The shows lend themselves to learning and sharing, not duking out what the "right" thing / theory is.
I've found this has made it possible for us to also chat more about the news and other stuff, because we've established a tone and approach of sharing and learning that works. That approach has ended the fear of the "minefield", because now it is the person who knows the least who wins -- they have the most to gain!!
posted by girlpublisher at 9:09 AM on December 18, 2008 [15 favorites]
Jesus, I thought my husband had gotten a mefi account until I hit the 3 years part. We don't have a lot of common interests. Until we got rid of the cable, we often would sit around watching TV 3 nights a week. The major difference is that I follow world events and he shies away from talking about them (perhaps because our politics are polar opposites and he doesn't want to argue).
First of all, are you sure you are listening to her, asking her questions about her day, etc? I assume she works. My husband often launches into a long-winded description of his day and at some point he might ask me about mine, but my job is tedious and boring by comparison and there's just not much to say about it. Ask her open-ended questions that must have some answer, even if it's boring to you. What did she have for lunch? Does she read at lunch time or does she talk to coworkers? What does she talk to coworkers about, or what is she reading?
Or if we debate about a movie, she gets frustrated and doesn't debate back - she just wants to stop.
Does she shy away from confrontation in general? My husband can be quite, um, assertive on certain topics and it gets annoying enough that I'll drop the subject entirely. He's also competitive to the point that I refuse to play videogames with him.
I think your expectation that she become interested in science or global warming is unrealistic. The best way for my husband to get me out of my shell was to a) see him doing things without me that made HIM happy and b) him encouraging me when I pursued any interest at all, no matter if it interested him or not.
I'll probably have more to say about this as I mull it over, but feel free to memail me if any of this is unclear.
posted by desjardins at 9:10 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
First of all, are you sure you are listening to her, asking her questions about her day, etc? I assume she works. My husband often launches into a long-winded description of his day and at some point he might ask me about mine, but my job is tedious and boring by comparison and there's just not much to say about it. Ask her open-ended questions that must have some answer, even if it's boring to you. What did she have for lunch? Does she read at lunch time or does she talk to coworkers? What does she talk to coworkers about, or what is she reading?
Or if we debate about a movie, she gets frustrated and doesn't debate back - she just wants to stop.
Does she shy away from confrontation in general? My husband can be quite, um, assertive on certain topics and it gets annoying enough that I'll drop the subject entirely. He's also competitive to the point that I refuse to play videogames with him.
I think your expectation that she become interested in science or global warming is unrealistic. The best way for my husband to get me out of my shell was to a) see him doing things without me that made HIM happy and b) him encouraging me when I pursued any interest at all, no matter if it interested him or not.
I'll probably have more to say about this as I mull it over, but feel free to memail me if any of this is unclear.
posted by desjardins at 9:10 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
I was once in a group of people who were hanging out (these were all people of the same age who knew each other well), and the conversation turned to politics. Right away, one of the others said, "Oh, I don't want to talk about politics." I asked why, and she said, "Because then I won't be in control." I thought that spoke volumes.
Some people just aren't interested in politics or the world at large, don't feel they have much to add to such a conversation, and fear that they'll lose control because they won't know the smart points to make. You can't make someone stop being that kind of person, any more than you can make some want to play a musical instrument if they're not passionate about music. The fact that you play a musical instrument wouldn't be very convincing, as long as they don't want to do it.
It's unfortunate that you're anonymous and don't specify how long you and your gf have been together -- that could change everything. The newer it is, the more you're just in the phase of feeling out whether you have enough interests in common. It's the most normal thing in the world to know people who don't share many of your interests; she might be such a person, in which case a relationship might just not be a good idea.
posted by Jaltcoh at 9:14 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Some people just aren't interested in politics or the world at large, don't feel they have much to add to such a conversation, and fear that they'll lose control because they won't know the smart points to make. You can't make someone stop being that kind of person, any more than you can make some want to play a musical instrument if they're not passionate about music. The fact that you play a musical instrument wouldn't be very convincing, as long as they don't want to do it.
It's unfortunate that you're anonymous and don't specify how long you and your gf have been together -- that could change everything. The newer it is, the more you're just in the phase of feeling out whether you have enough interests in common. It's the most normal thing in the world to know people who don't share many of your interests; she might be such a person, in which case a relationship might just not be a good idea.
posted by Jaltcoh at 9:14 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm wondering if you couldn't just ask her if she is happy staying home.
Yes, this. I am kind of an introvert, bordering on agoraphobia, so I am largely content with being a homebody and surfing the net. He is not content with that, so he goes out and does other things. Then we have stuff to talk about when he comes home: what I read on metafilter, and what he did that evening. If she expects you to stay home all the time, that is another problem entirely.
posted by desjardins at 9:14 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yes, this. I am kind of an introvert, bordering on agoraphobia, so I am largely content with being a homebody and surfing the net. He is not content with that, so he goes out and does other things. Then we have stuff to talk about when he comes home: what I read on metafilter, and what he did that evening. If she expects you to stay home all the time, that is another problem entirely.
posted by desjardins at 9:14 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
(Sorry, it's me again. I would like to say that boypublisher in no way contributed to my "minefield" fear, or tried to be at all adversarial. These things happened over time, before I met him, and they stilted my interest in real conversation. It just so happens the solution came from boypublisher's love of radio shows.)
posted by girlpublisher at 9:14 AM on December 18, 2008
posted by girlpublisher at 9:14 AM on December 18, 2008
Btw, positive feedback is the key to drawing her out. Whenever she starts a conversation about anything - no matter how you feel about the topic - act interested and find out more about it.
Oh, and are you sure she's not depressed? Has she always been this way, or has she more recently withdrawn?
posted by desjardins at 9:19 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Oh, and are you sure she's not depressed? Has she always been this way, or has she more recently withdrawn?
posted by desjardins at 9:19 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Good point from desjardins, and I was wondering that myself: Your wife sounds as if she may be depressed.
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 9:32 AM on December 18, 2008
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 9:32 AM on December 18, 2008
I'm at work, so I can't spend a lot of time reading other responses so I apologize if I'm being really redundant here.
I wanted to offer you another perspective on this, as the ex-wife of a man who routinely demanded "more" from me, a description that implied that what I was currently doing was "less": This man, who is now a good friend of mine, so this is not coming from a bitter place, drove me fucking crazy. His particular interest was in greater "intensity". When I was done discussing, or arguing, he never was. He himself was an awful, confrontational, conversationalist who made me feel miserable and inadequate and frankly, exhausted. I had no interest in pursuing these conversations with him because he was not the least bit fun to talk to.Sometimes I just wasn't interested. Sometimes I was delighted. I was delighted when I came home from work and his car wasn't in the driveway, because he worked late or had a class. Or later on, was busy cheating on me.
I am now in a relationship where there is a great amount of emotional intimacy, and we can talk about ideas and culture and politics with mutual respect. It's fun. It's genuinely not personal. We value each others perspective and intelligence, and if one of us is maybe not up for an hour long conversation about technology or current events, because we're tired or the conversation is an annoying topic or has somehow made one of us annoyed, we just get to say so and the other lets the person off the hook.
It is awesome and liberating to be in a relationship without this hideous pressure and constant feeling of inadequacy and failure to live up to expectations. It is also awesome to be accepted for you who are, and the interests that you have.
It sounds to me that you are nursing a grudge against your wife for not being the person you want her to be, and that is causing resentment. You sound like you are unhappy with your life and with her, and it seems impossible she's not acutely aware of this. This makes a person kind of want to disengage. You can divorce her or you can accept her for her who she is --- genuinely -- and then start trying to have more fun with her. If she doesn't want to watch dead bodies or talk about science, that's not a failure on her part -- it's a difference in taste and temperment, and as I said, might be compounded by a feeling that you feel that she is failing you, so the resentment could be working in both directions.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 9:42 AM on December 18, 2008 [8 favorites]
I wanted to offer you another perspective on this, as the ex-wife of a man who routinely demanded "more" from me, a description that implied that what I was currently doing was "less": This man, who is now a good friend of mine, so this is not coming from a bitter place, drove me fucking crazy. His particular interest was in greater "intensity". When I was done discussing, or arguing, he never was. He himself was an awful, confrontational, conversationalist who made me feel miserable and inadequate and frankly, exhausted. I had no interest in pursuing these conversations with him because he was not the least bit fun to talk to.Sometimes I just wasn't interested. Sometimes I was delighted. I was delighted when I came home from work and his car wasn't in the driveway, because he worked late or had a class. Or later on, was busy cheating on me.
I am now in a relationship where there is a great amount of emotional intimacy, and we can talk about ideas and culture and politics with mutual respect. It's fun. It's genuinely not personal. We value each others perspective and intelligence, and if one of us is maybe not up for an hour long conversation about technology or current events, because we're tired or the conversation is an annoying topic or has somehow made one of us annoyed, we just get to say so and the other lets the person off the hook.
It is awesome and liberating to be in a relationship without this hideous pressure and constant feeling of inadequacy and failure to live up to expectations. It is also awesome to be accepted for you who are, and the interests that you have.
It sounds to me that you are nursing a grudge against your wife for not being the person you want her to be, and that is causing resentment. You sound like you are unhappy with your life and with her, and it seems impossible she's not acutely aware of this. This makes a person kind of want to disengage. You can divorce her or you can accept her for her who she is --- genuinely -- and then start trying to have more fun with her. If she doesn't want to watch dead bodies or talk about science, that's not a failure on her part -- it's a difference in taste and temperment, and as I said, might be compounded by a feeling that you feel that she is failing you, so the resentment could be working in both directions.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 9:42 AM on December 18, 2008 [8 favorites]
The first "Sometimes I was delighted" should be "Sometimes I was tired"
Gah.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 9:43 AM on December 18, 2008
Gah.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 9:43 AM on December 18, 2008
"Are my expectations of all these cool conversations insane after being married 3 years?"
Does she know about your expectations of the marriage? What are her expectations of the marriage? I think you are expending too much energy looking at what your marriage could be rather than enjoying what it is.
On her end, she could be saying, "My husband is so argumentative. He focuses on negativity. He loves talking about plated beans."
Sometimes conversations about the state of the World are exhausting. Maybe she wants you to be her safe place to get away from the madness.
If it's that important to you, talk to her. Learn why she doesn't want to discuss these things. She might be afraid because she disagrees with you most of the time and thinks it will hurt the marriage. She might just be afraid to dwell on negativity.
Tell her you like having these types of conversations with her because you respect her opinion and enjoy hearing her views. Be sure to make her feel this way when you talk to her.
posted by studentbaker at 9:48 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Does she know about your expectations of the marriage? What are her expectations of the marriage? I think you are expending too much energy looking at what your marriage could be rather than enjoying what it is.
On her end, she could be saying, "My husband is so argumentative. He focuses on negativity. He loves talking about plated beans."
Sometimes conversations about the state of the World are exhausting. Maybe she wants you to be her safe place to get away from the madness.
If it's that important to you, talk to her. Learn why she doesn't want to discuss these things. She might be afraid because she disagrees with you most of the time and thinks it will hurt the marriage. She might just be afraid to dwell on negativity.
Tell her you like having these types of conversations with her because you respect her opinion and enjoy hearing her views. Be sure to make her feel this way when you talk to her.
posted by studentbaker at 9:48 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm a sensitive person who doesn't look at dead bodies on the news, either, but the fella and I have conversations and debates out the wazoo, so I don't think those are necessarily limiting factors.
1) Are my expectations of all these cool conversations insane after being married 3 years? Is sitting in front of the TV 3 night out of the week okay and normal? Am I nuts to think we should go out more during the week?
I don't think they're insane. They may be unrealistic, depending upon how entrenched your wife's lack of interest in conversation may be, but definitely not insane. Has she always been this reticent to talk?
Sitting in front of the TV that much is status quo, which is the measuring stick of what's considered "normal", but I don't necessarily think it's healthy, interesting, or a good use of the time we've got on the planet, which is another measure of "normal" I have more faith in.
Going out more during the week might be nuts if you guys are already over-committed in your schedules or if it will impact ability to be at work on time the next day. Otherwise? Healthy and interesting.
2) How can I encourage her to become more engaged in the world, despite the pain that is out there. How can I interest her in science, or global warming beyond "hey we recycle"?
Maybe instead of starting a conversation based on your interest in a topic or when you're craving debate, ask her questions. Some people will invest themselves in a conversation when they feel as if they're being invited to share their views and are unlikely to get shut down.
Worry about being shut down conversationally may be an issue for your wife, but there's no way to know without asking her specifically why she's so hesitant and then getting a detailed answer in return.
If she has no interest in these things and it's not just a form of hesitation or fear of conflict, there may be nothing you can do.
3) Is there anything I can do to help her find outside interests? Or more friends that are not simply spouses of my friends or along those lines?
Ask her if she'd like some help in these areas before taking it on as a project. If she is, figure out what she's uncertain about and guide her through those areas.
If she's not interested in finding outside interests or having other friends, there's really not much you can do about it.
At that point, the best thing you can do is just take care of your own social and intellectual needs.
If it comes down to it - which it may, if you're fearing for the rest of your life with a partner who isn't a partner - you may want to consider couples counseling. Sometimes hearing from an expert that one needs to develop a facet left unexplored can be the impetus one needs. But, sometimes, it has no effect whatsoever and you're then at least in the hands of a professional who can help you to a stable point or at least a decision-making point.
posted by batmonkey at 9:48 AM on December 18, 2008
1) Are my expectations of all these cool conversations insane after being married 3 years? Is sitting in front of the TV 3 night out of the week okay and normal? Am I nuts to think we should go out more during the week?
I don't think they're insane. They may be unrealistic, depending upon how entrenched your wife's lack of interest in conversation may be, but definitely not insane. Has she always been this reticent to talk?
Sitting in front of the TV that much is status quo, which is the measuring stick of what's considered "normal", but I don't necessarily think it's healthy, interesting, or a good use of the time we've got on the planet, which is another measure of "normal" I have more faith in.
Going out more during the week might be nuts if you guys are already over-committed in your schedules or if it will impact ability to be at work on time the next day. Otherwise? Healthy and interesting.
2) How can I encourage her to become more engaged in the world, despite the pain that is out there. How can I interest her in science, or global warming beyond "hey we recycle"?
Maybe instead of starting a conversation based on your interest in a topic or when you're craving debate, ask her questions. Some people will invest themselves in a conversation when they feel as if they're being invited to share their views and are unlikely to get shut down.
Worry about being shut down conversationally may be an issue for your wife, but there's no way to know without asking her specifically why she's so hesitant and then getting a detailed answer in return.
If she has no interest in these things and it's not just a form of hesitation or fear of conflict, there may be nothing you can do.
3) Is there anything I can do to help her find outside interests? Or more friends that are not simply spouses of my friends or along those lines?
Ask her if she'd like some help in these areas before taking it on as a project. If she is, figure out what she's uncertain about and guide her through those areas.
If she's not interested in finding outside interests or having other friends, there's really not much you can do about it.
At that point, the best thing you can do is just take care of your own social and intellectual needs.
If it comes down to it - which it may, if you're fearing for the rest of your life with a partner who isn't a partner - you may want to consider couples counseling. Sometimes hearing from an expert that one needs to develop a facet left unexplored can be the impetus one needs. But, sometimes, it has no effect whatsoever and you're then at least in the hands of a professional who can help you to a stable point or at least a decision-making point.
posted by batmonkey at 9:48 AM on December 18, 2008
I'm wondering if my ex husband is Jessamyn's ex!
Sometimes, your partner isn't all things to you. They're your lover, your friend, your support, your comfortable old slipper, your golden object of desire, your sunshine on a rainy day... But debate partner? I don't know if that's necessarily a must. I don't think it really was a must for you, either, otherwise you wouldn't be with her.
If she's shutting you down when discussion shifts towards debate, I'd take a look at how you're debating. I'd also look at how you're connecting as a couple. It could be that you're wanting to grow with her, that you're feeling you've lost the exciting sort of mutual discovery of the first few years or marriage bring.
Talk to her about this. Ask her if she has any ideas about changing, or if she thinks you should. You never know - she might feel the same way, but about different topics. I'd love it if I could debate philosophy or religion with Mr. G. I'd love it if he liked to travel more. He'd love it if he could debate scientific or tech advances or ideas with me. He'd love to spend more time at home, playing with tech. Solution: we do the things we can't do with each other with other people. Then, we come home, happy, satisfied, relaxed, fired up... and tell each other about the cool things we learned or saw.
Works for me and Mr. G... it might well work for you.
posted by Grrlscout at 9:52 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sometimes, your partner isn't all things to you. They're your lover, your friend, your support, your comfortable old slipper, your golden object of desire, your sunshine on a rainy day... But debate partner? I don't know if that's necessarily a must. I don't think it really was a must for you, either, otherwise you wouldn't be with her.
If she's shutting you down when discussion shifts towards debate, I'd take a look at how you're debating. I'd also look at how you're connecting as a couple. It could be that you're wanting to grow with her, that you're feeling you've lost the exciting sort of mutual discovery of the first few years or marriage bring.
Talk to her about this. Ask her if she has any ideas about changing, or if she thinks you should. You never know - she might feel the same way, but about different topics. I'd love it if I could debate philosophy or religion with Mr. G. I'd love it if he liked to travel more. He'd love it if he could debate scientific or tech advances or ideas with me. He'd love to spend more time at home, playing with tech. Solution: we do the things we can't do with each other with other people. Then, we come home, happy, satisfied, relaxed, fired up... and tell each other about the cool things we learned or saw.
Works for me and Mr. G... it might well work for you.
posted by Grrlscout at 9:52 AM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Why did you think you would be having these "cool conversations" with her? Did she used to talk about that stuff with you or is it just some image you had in your mind of what married life would be like?
Your partner can be a lot of things, but it's unfair to expect her to be everything to you, and that may include a debate partner. That's why people have different types of friends.
Now, do you really care about her opinion? Do you want her to just talk about anything? Do you want her to be able to argue with you without backing down?
What is it about a movie you are debating about that causes her to shut down? My SO and I had a great discussion of the physics behind how teleportation worked in the movie Jumper. Neither of us was right or wrong (or debating) but we both had ideas. I'm just wondering how you are approaching these conversations you want to have.
posted by CoralAmber at 9:57 AM on December 18, 2008
Your partner can be a lot of things, but it's unfair to expect her to be everything to you, and that may include a debate partner. That's why people have different types of friends.
Now, do you really care about her opinion? Do you want her to just talk about anything? Do you want her to be able to argue with you without backing down?
What is it about a movie you are debating about that causes her to shut down? My SO and I had a great discussion of the physics behind how teleportation worked in the movie Jumper. Neither of us was right or wrong (or debating) but we both had ideas. I'm just wondering how you are approaching these conversations you want to have.
posted by CoralAmber at 9:57 AM on December 18, 2008
So, you're asking how to make her be the person you want her to be? Honestly, it sounds like you guys just aren't compatible. If it's true that you often end up in silence, then that's flat out not a good relationship. Trust me, I've been there.
Also, not be a jerk, but you sound nerdy in a non-endearing way. It sounds as though you look down on your SO for not being interested in "the state of the world", which presumes that "the state of the world" is something everyone should be interested in. Since I was about 19, I listened to NPR all the time, but now--at 30--frankly, I feel like every news event is just a variation on a story I've already heard several times. Now, I'm way more interested in human interest stuff--how people live their lives--which I used to consider fluff. This is all by way of saying that intelligent people might actually have reasons for not being particularly interested in "the state of the world", for reasons other than preferring to knit or watch Oprah.
posted by mpls2 at 9:57 AM on December 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
Also, not be a jerk, but you sound nerdy in a non-endearing way. It sounds as though you look down on your SO for not being interested in "the state of the world", which presumes that "the state of the world" is something everyone should be interested in. Since I was about 19, I listened to NPR all the time, but now--at 30--frankly, I feel like every news event is just a variation on a story I've already heard several times. Now, I'm way more interested in human interest stuff--how people live their lives--which I used to consider fluff. This is all by way of saying that intelligent people might actually have reasons for not being particularly interested in "the state of the world", for reasons other than preferring to knit or watch Oprah.
posted by mpls2 at 9:57 AM on December 18, 2008 [3 favorites]
I have a similar difficulty with my girlfriend. As comes as no surprise to those who know me, I enjoy arguing. I enjoy taking devil's advocate positions. I particularly enjoy arguments about political philosophy and philosophy in general.
I grew up in a house where robust disagreement was encouraged, and people argued in good faith. She grew up in a house where disagreement is discouraged, and people argue with quite a bit of snippiness. That means that when I start to argue (not just disagree, but present a proposition and make points), she can feel attacked. Because I love her very much, I take significantly greater pains to be amiable than I do, fer instance, when I argue on Metafilter, but it can still come across as dickish.
So I do a couple of things—first off, I do try to drop things when she says she doesn't want to talk about them anymore. I'm not always the greatest at this, as I tend toward the malady that assumes that when people disagree, it's because they don't understand what I'm saying or that I haven't articulated it clearly enough, which can come across as condescending. I like to think I'm getting better, but if your wife is like my girlfriend, be aware of that tendency.
Second, I try really hard not to dismiss her opinions. She holds some that I think are kind of simplistic, and I think that if she gave some things more thought, she'd be able to come up with more defensible positions. But she doesn't particularly care about having defensible positions (again, because she doesn't really like to argue). And she isn't likely to gain them by me attacking her positions, so I try to let things drop, because I trust her enough to form intelligent thoughts about things that are important to her.
Third, I really do try to engage her on things that are important to her. She's got an excellent mind for media theory, and often has much more cogent ideas about literature or television than I do. On those things, I try not to argue with her, but rather learn from her, since she's really the better thinker regarding those topics, and she has really interesting things to say. It helps that we both read a fair amount, though, damn, she outpaces me like whoa. But that means that we've read some of the same books in any given time period, plus she's read a bit more. Which means that we can talk about things that we've experienced mutually, with her being able to add stuff that I haven't gotten to yet. And because she's a better reader and thinker than I am, I look forward to reading things with her opinions in mind.
So, that's how I've been trying to move away from arguing as a rhetorical strategy and more toward conversation in my home.
posted by klangklangston at 10:00 AM on December 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
I grew up in a house where robust disagreement was encouraged, and people argued in good faith. She grew up in a house where disagreement is discouraged, and people argue with quite a bit of snippiness. That means that when I start to argue (not just disagree, but present a proposition and make points), she can feel attacked. Because I love her very much, I take significantly greater pains to be amiable than I do, fer instance, when I argue on Metafilter, but it can still come across as dickish.
So I do a couple of things—first off, I do try to drop things when she says she doesn't want to talk about them anymore. I'm not always the greatest at this, as I tend toward the malady that assumes that when people disagree, it's because they don't understand what I'm saying or that I haven't articulated it clearly enough, which can come across as condescending. I like to think I'm getting better, but if your wife is like my girlfriend, be aware of that tendency.
Second, I try really hard not to dismiss her opinions. She holds some that I think are kind of simplistic, and I think that if she gave some things more thought, she'd be able to come up with more defensible positions. But she doesn't particularly care about having defensible positions (again, because she doesn't really like to argue). And she isn't likely to gain them by me attacking her positions, so I try to let things drop, because I trust her enough to form intelligent thoughts about things that are important to her.
Third, I really do try to engage her on things that are important to her. She's got an excellent mind for media theory, and often has much more cogent ideas about literature or television than I do. On those things, I try not to argue with her, but rather learn from her, since she's really the better thinker regarding those topics, and she has really interesting things to say. It helps that we both read a fair amount, though, damn, she outpaces me like whoa. But that means that we've read some of the same books in any given time period, plus she's read a bit more. Which means that we can talk about things that we've experienced mutually, with her being able to add stuff that I haven't gotten to yet. And because she's a better reader and thinker than I am, I look forward to reading things with her opinions in mind.
So, that's how I've been trying to move away from arguing as a rhetorical strategy and more toward conversation in my home.
posted by klangklangston at 10:00 AM on December 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
Let me propose a thought experiment. Imagine that your wife was a musician, and you had no musical talent at all. Here's her question:
There's a really, really crucial difference between (1) whether you're engaged with the world and (2) how you express your engagement. Different people have different aptitudes, ways of learning, and tools for self-expression. Debate/discussion is only one of many, many, many ways to connect to the world and each other.
I feel qualified to tell you this because I am a discusser myself. I like debate: fast, aggressive, spirited, nitpicky debate. But as I've learned, just because not everybody talks like me doesn't mean that they aren't smart or engaged. I definitely need my debate fix -- I have friends that I treasure specifically for their ability to keep up with me verbally -- but I've also widened my circle of friends to include people who have other ways of expressing themselves, through music or film or sheer emotional savvy. I see those people as being complimentary to me -- they offer me something I don't have, and I learn and grow by my interactions with them. I think this has made me a better person.
So, two pieces of concrete advice: (1) scratch the itch with friends who enjoy your kind of debate and discussion, and (2) learn to appreciate the ways your wife expresses herself. Because you married her, I'm assuming she's smart and interesting in some way -- she must have sparked your interest somehow, right? So don't try to make her engage with the world in your way. Figure out the ways that she is most intelligent, most skilled, and most expressive. Find the areas where she outsmarts you and outclasses you. Find whatever she's better than you at, and try to engage with her there.
posted by ourobouros at 10:01 AM on December 18, 2008 [6 favorites]
"I love my husband, but I feel like there's a disconnect. He just isn't willing to jam with me. At times, I'll get inspired to make up a new song, and he refuses to engage in any way -- he won't strum guitar, sing, or even tap a rhythm on the table. It's not because I'm picky about the topic, either. I get inspired by current events, science, movies and art, and I'm even willing to make music about his interests, like knitting and cars. He just doesn't seem to care about anything. How can I get him to engage with the world?"If this was her attitude, you'd feel a little irritated, right? There you are, debating and reading and listening to the radio and having all kinds of ideas, and yet she's fixating on whether or not you're able to turn those ideas into music. She's assuming that because you have no musical talent, you aren't engaged with the world.
There's a really, really crucial difference between (1) whether you're engaged with the world and (2) how you express your engagement. Different people have different aptitudes, ways of learning, and tools for self-expression. Debate/discussion is only one of many, many, many ways to connect to the world and each other.
I feel qualified to tell you this because I am a discusser myself. I like debate: fast, aggressive, spirited, nitpicky debate. But as I've learned, just because not everybody talks like me doesn't mean that they aren't smart or engaged. I definitely need my debate fix -- I have friends that I treasure specifically for their ability to keep up with me verbally -- but I've also widened my circle of friends to include people who have other ways of expressing themselves, through music or film or sheer emotional savvy. I see those people as being complimentary to me -- they offer me something I don't have, and I learn and grow by my interactions with them. I think this has made me a better person.
So, two pieces of concrete advice: (1) scratch the itch with friends who enjoy your kind of debate and discussion, and (2) learn to appreciate the ways your wife expresses herself. Because you married her, I'm assuming she's smart and interesting in some way -- she must have sparked your interest somehow, right? So don't try to make her engage with the world in your way. Figure out the ways that she is most intelligent, most skilled, and most expressive. Find the areas where she outsmarts you and outclasses you. Find whatever she's better than you at, and try to engage with her there.
posted by ourobouros at 10:01 AM on December 18, 2008 [6 favorites]
Also, one last thing—you don't "get your SO to have better conversations," you have better conversations with your SO. It's not just her.
posted by klangklangston at 10:03 AM on December 18, 2008 [7 favorites]
posted by klangklangston at 10:03 AM on December 18, 2008 [7 favorites]
Your wife sounds as if she may be depressed
Then again, also perhaps not. Does she, if you disregard your own agenda for a moment, seem - to you - content with her level of activities and engagement with the world (or with you)? If yes the problem is likely yours (this does not mean that it cannot be tackled in some way, of course).
If no, it may well be your responsibility as a partner to point out to her that she seems unhappy (or whatever else you observed), but it still isn't really your task to help her 'find outside interests'.
Another thought: it seems a bit like you try to handle your own frustration with the state of the world (beyond "hey we recycle") through finding fault with how your S.O. handles her life in general, and your conversation in particular. For someone whom you "love dearly", you might consider revising your strategy here. Inducing guilt, no matter whether its about her avoidance of the hot topic of the day or about your expectations as a whole, is a dead-sure relationship killer.
posted by Namlit at 10:03 AM on December 18, 2008
Then again, also perhaps not. Does she, if you disregard your own agenda for a moment, seem - to you - content with her level of activities and engagement with the world (or with you)? If yes the problem is likely yours (this does not mean that it cannot be tackled in some way, of course).
If no, it may well be your responsibility as a partner to point out to her that she seems unhappy (or whatever else you observed), but it still isn't really your task to help her 'find outside interests'.
Another thought: it seems a bit like you try to handle your own frustration with the state of the world (beyond "hey we recycle") through finding fault with how your S.O. handles her life in general, and your conversation in particular. For someone whom you "love dearly", you might consider revising your strategy here. Inducing guilt, no matter whether its about her avoidance of the hot topic of the day or about your expectations as a whole, is a dead-sure relationship killer.
posted by Namlit at 10:03 AM on December 18, 2008
Getting rid of cable was one of the best things we did for our relationship (and our pocketbook). It was so easy to fall into the inertia and routine of sitting on the couch every night. Now, if we want to do that, we have to be deliberate about renting a movie. It's definitely motivated us to do other things, and to talk more. Also see What do you want to do? I don't know, what do you want to do?
posted by desjardins at 10:07 AM on December 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 10:07 AM on December 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
Or if we debate about a movie, she gets frustrated and doesn't debate back - she just wants to stop.
This seems to be the key for me. If you both are having a discussion where you both are relaxed and enjoying it, no one should be getting frustrated. Frustration tends to come when the conversation is more elevated in intensity.
It sounds as if what you think is a lovely conversation registers higher on her intensity level. This could very well be coming from you. How intensely do you need to be discussing a movie that the other party becomes frustrated?
I know I can get pretty jacked up in conversations, needing to prove I am right. I am learning to hear when my debate is too intense by the reactions of my friends. I love them and do not want them to get frustrated, upset, exhausted, etc. That is when I check myself and realize I do not need to prove that I am 'right' to my friends, I would rather they were happy.
You might be able to find a release valve somewhere else. I would check into it.
Also, home is haven. I would get exhausted if my SO kept bringing death and pain and despair into it. the tv wold get louder and louder. The safer and more restful 'home' is, the more she could possibly in the future go outside and fight the good fight.
posted by Vaike at 10:08 AM on December 18, 2008
This seems to be the key for me. If you both are having a discussion where you both are relaxed and enjoying it, no one should be getting frustrated. Frustration tends to come when the conversation is more elevated in intensity.
It sounds as if what you think is a lovely conversation registers higher on her intensity level. This could very well be coming from you. How intensely do you need to be discussing a movie that the other party becomes frustrated?
I know I can get pretty jacked up in conversations, needing to prove I am right. I am learning to hear when my debate is too intense by the reactions of my friends. I love them and do not want them to get frustrated, upset, exhausted, etc. That is when I check myself and realize I do not need to prove that I am 'right' to my friends, I would rather they were happy.
You might be able to find a release valve somewhere else. I would check into it.
Also, home is haven. I would get exhausted if my SO kept bringing death and pain and despair into it. the tv wold get louder and louder. The safer and more restful 'home' is, the more she could possibly in the future go outside and fight the good fight.
posted by Vaike at 10:08 AM on December 18, 2008
My best friend is like this. We never have conversations about books (he doesn't read them), world issues, art, etc. We can talk for hours but sometimes after we stop I wonder "what the hell did we just talk about for 3 hours? Celebrities? People we know?" and I feel a little stifled and wish that we would exercise our brains a little more. The thing with him is, he's convinced he's too stupid to have a "deep" conversation. If someone starts talking politics or science, he'll mentally tune out because he doesn't think he could possibly add anything to the conversation. He's told me this himself. Maybe your wife feels this way?
And as Grrlscout has mentioned above, are you sure you need her to be your debate partner? What's bothering you, that you feel intellectually stifled or that she is mentally shallow? If it's the former, maybe you can have a debate partner in a friend or co-worker instead. If it's the latter, that's a deeper problem and a different question altogether.
posted by Rora at 10:08 AM on December 18, 2008
And as Grrlscout has mentioned above, are you sure you need her to be your debate partner? What's bothering you, that you feel intellectually stifled or that she is mentally shallow? If it's the former, maybe you can have a debate partner in a friend or co-worker instead. If it's the latter, that's a deeper problem and a different question altogether.
posted by Rora at 10:08 AM on December 18, 2008
P.S. Please disregard my foolish gender assumptions. My bad.
posted by ourobouros at 10:10 AM on December 18, 2008
posted by ourobouros at 10:10 AM on December 18, 2008
My boyfriend and I frequently get into debates. I rather enjoy when we talk about things we agree on, because we expand each others' knowledge and explore new trains of thought. However, when we disagree, or on topics where I know we have differing opinions, or things I know and care little about, I have NO desire to talk. This is because frequently he will say something like, "That's retarded. You don't know what you're talking about," and then proceed to prove his point again. When I eventually concede his point (whether I actually agree or not) he gets angry that I'm just "giving up".
It's annoying to have debates with someone who knows much more about a topic than you do. You say she likes sci-fi--send her a link to some news story that resembles something you'd see in a sci-fi story, and then you can take it from that angle. There are ways to approach this with her that come at it from her interests as opposed to yours.
I wonder if you haven't just lost touch with each other as a couple.
Basically, desjardins has it all.
posted by Night_owl at 10:11 AM on December 18, 2008
It's annoying to have debates with someone who knows much more about a topic than you do. You say she likes sci-fi--send her a link to some news story that resembles something you'd see in a sci-fi story, and then you can take it from that angle. There are ways to approach this with her that come at it from her interests as opposed to yours.
I wonder if you haven't just lost touch with each other as a couple.
Basically, desjardins has it all.
posted by Night_owl at 10:11 AM on December 18, 2008
Join a club. Seriously.
If I had to be the outlet for Mr. 26.2's endless excitement about vintage bikes, then I'd probably pack my bags. I'm just not that interested. I can listen to about 10 minutes of what esoteric Italian bike part he found on craigslist/ebay today, but that's about it. He's got his bike buddies and clubs and email lists to discuss bikes until his heart is content.
Your wife may think the same thing about current events that I think about bikes. Plus, she may be wondering why you are asking her to constantly discuss topics that disturb her.
It sounds as thought the real problem is the two of you want very different levels of interaction. She wants to come home and be home. She wants a haven of quiet. You want more action after the workday. She may simply be more introverted than you are.
That's okay. It's a marriage, not a three legged race. Join a club and go out on your own. Go out one or two nights a week - without her - and find the level of debate, chatter you need. She'll probably be overjoyed to have some alone time.
With a bit of break from the pressure of needing to amuse someone, she may be more lively when you are together.
posted by 26.2 at 10:26 AM on December 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
If I had to be the outlet for Mr. 26.2's endless excitement about vintage bikes, then I'd probably pack my bags. I'm just not that interested. I can listen to about 10 minutes of what esoteric Italian bike part he found on craigslist/ebay today, but that's about it. He's got his bike buddies and clubs and email lists to discuss bikes until his heart is content.
Your wife may think the same thing about current events that I think about bikes. Plus, she may be wondering why you are asking her to constantly discuss topics that disturb her.
It sounds as thought the real problem is the two of you want very different levels of interaction. She wants to come home and be home. She wants a haven of quiet. You want more action after the workday. She may simply be more introverted than you are.
That's okay. It's a marriage, not a three legged race. Join a club and go out on your own. Go out one or two nights a week - without her - and find the level of debate, chatter you need. She'll probably be overjoyed to have some alone time.
With a bit of break from the pressure of needing to amuse someone, she may be more lively when you are together.
posted by 26.2 at 10:26 AM on December 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
Woops, I take back my comment about how we need to know how long they've been together -- the post says they've been married for 3 years.
posted by Jaltcoh at 10:34 AM on December 18, 2008
posted by Jaltcoh at 10:34 AM on December 18, 2008
Your wife sounds a lot like me at the beginning of my relationship with my now-fiance, so I have to follow up on desjardin's point about depression. I wasn't interested in much, including former hobbies; shied away from any kind of exposure to the news, since it was just too upsetting; and especially avoided debates of any kind, because they felt like fights to me (it didn't help that when I was growing up, family debates did turn into shouting and object-hurling matches).
I did end up going to therapy, but my SO helped just as much by showing that he valued my opinions. He didn't belittle me, even when we disagreed; instead, he asked me how I'd come to that conclusion and encouraged me to think logically when I was wrong (this part applies to the math/science discussions where there was a right answer). He's a very analytical person, too, and prompted me to examine my feelings and why I reacted the way I did. It complemented the cognitive behavioral therapy. The hobbies, social life, and interest in current events all gradually returned as my mood improved.
You say she gets frustrated when you try to debate...have you asked her why this is? What are her workdays like? That might give you some insight into what she wants from her downtime. You can't expect her to change, though, unless she's not satisfied with her current lifestyle and interests.
posted by kiripin at 10:48 AM on December 18, 2008
I did end up going to therapy, but my SO helped just as much by showing that he valued my opinions. He didn't belittle me, even when we disagreed; instead, he asked me how I'd come to that conclusion and encouraged me to think logically when I was wrong (this part applies to the math/science discussions where there was a right answer). He's a very analytical person, too, and prompted me to examine my feelings and why I reacted the way I did. It complemented the cognitive behavioral therapy. The hobbies, social life, and interest in current events all gradually returned as my mood improved.
You say she gets frustrated when you try to debate...have you asked her why this is? What are her workdays like? That might give you some insight into what she wants from her downtime. You can't expect her to change, though, unless she's not satisfied with her current lifestyle and interests.
posted by kiripin at 10:48 AM on December 18, 2008
First of all, to address the larger question here, you're married.
If you take marriage seriously, that means understanding that both you and your wife are going to be many different people over the course of the next "50+ years." Those people aren't always going to be as marvelously compatible as the ones who stood at the altar, and you have to find a way to accept that. You're probably not always going to be Mr. TV-eschewing political debater, and she will probably develop lots of different interests over the years, which may or may not be of genuine interest to you as well. Coming from the perspective of a 22-year relationship, 3 years is early days. Life is going to throw some real problems at you sooner or later, much bigger than "she wants to watch TV 3 nights a week." If your wife is the person you want by you when you get the cancer diagnosis, or whatever, then you need to back off and give her some room to be whoever she is. When real trouble comes, you won't give a shit about debating movies, believe me.
Second, it is no fun to with someone who thinks you're not good enough because you don't share his interests, and I would venture to say that no one enjoys being "encouraged to become more interested in the world," or "helped to find outside interests." It's condescending, puts people on the defensive, and doesn't work. Try finding things that you do enjoy doing together, and expand on those. Once she stops feeling criticized, she may surprise you.
posted by HotToddy at 10:54 AM on December 18, 2008 [13 favorites]
If you take marriage seriously, that means understanding that both you and your wife are going to be many different people over the course of the next "50+ years." Those people aren't always going to be as marvelously compatible as the ones who stood at the altar, and you have to find a way to accept that. You're probably not always going to be Mr. TV-eschewing political debater, and she will probably develop lots of different interests over the years, which may or may not be of genuine interest to you as well. Coming from the perspective of a 22-year relationship, 3 years is early days. Life is going to throw some real problems at you sooner or later, much bigger than "she wants to watch TV 3 nights a week." If your wife is the person you want by you when you get the cancer diagnosis, or whatever, then you need to back off and give her some room to be whoever she is. When real trouble comes, you won't give a shit about debating movies, believe me.
Second, it is no fun to with someone who thinks you're not good enough because you don't share his interests, and I would venture to say that no one enjoys being "encouraged to become more interested in the world," or "helped to find outside interests." It's condescending, puts people on the defensive, and doesn't work. Try finding things that you do enjoy doing together, and expand on those. Once she stops feeling criticized, she may surprise you.
posted by HotToddy at 10:54 AM on December 18, 2008 [13 favorites]
2) How can I get her to have more, deeper, conversations, debates, etc?
What does she like to talk about? I have a friend just like your wife, but we have fun conversations on other, "lighter" subjects, but usually in a deep way i.e. a discussion about women's boots and which ones she likes might turn into a conversation on gender and the various roles and why women are drawn to shoes, nature vs nuture etc.
I don't talk politics with her, 'cause she isn't into it, but by bringing up interests of hers, I get my "let's be deep" fix.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:56 AM on December 18, 2008
What does she like to talk about? I have a friend just like your wife, but we have fun conversations on other, "lighter" subjects, but usually in a deep way i.e. a discussion about women's boots and which ones she likes might turn into a conversation on gender and the various roles and why women are drawn to shoes, nature vs nuture etc.
I don't talk politics with her, 'cause she isn't into it, but by bringing up interests of hers, I get my "let's be deep" fix.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:56 AM on December 18, 2008
I’m sort of a news junkie, so I understand why you expect her to take an interest in world events, but I’d like to point out that having conversations about what’s going on in the world is not the key to solving the world’s problems, nor is viewing news programs that show photos of dead people. I find that the more I follow the news and discuss world events with people, especially my SO, I just become more of a smug liberal congratulating myself and my conversation partners for having the right opinions. I say this as someone who loves listening to NPR, can stomach very gory photos, and frequently chats with friends about politics. For me, talking politics is a diversion. It’s not a noble pursuit simply because it refers to things that are actually happening. It’s a hobby, an interest. You don’t expect her to play videogames and like sci-fi, they just happen to be common interests: you share a common interest in those things, you do not share a common interest in current events.
I think it’s unreasonable to expect to spend every evening doing something interesting with your partner, but then I also think it’s unreasonable to expect to spend every evening with your partner, period. If you want to go out and do something, and she wants to stay in and watch TV, you should go out and she should stay in. Set a regular date night or figure out another way of ensuring that you’re spending enough quality time together during the week, but then on some nights go your separate ways. She’d resent it if you dragged her out to social events every night, and you’d resent it if she wanted you to sit with her watching TV every night: doing separate things every couple of nights will give you both a chance to pursue your individual interests and will then also give you things to talk about when you’re back together afterward.
Unless she’s dealing with depression or some other issue, she’ll find interests when she wants to. You can’t force her to take up hobbies or interests you want to discuss with her. I think you should work on finding satisfying outlets for your own interests (You want to talk politics? Arrange a bar/coffee night with friends who like talking politics.).
posted by Meg_Murry at 11:02 AM on December 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
I think it’s unreasonable to expect to spend every evening doing something interesting with your partner, but then I also think it’s unreasonable to expect to spend every evening with your partner, period. If you want to go out and do something, and she wants to stay in and watch TV, you should go out and she should stay in. Set a regular date night or figure out another way of ensuring that you’re spending enough quality time together during the week, but then on some nights go your separate ways. She’d resent it if you dragged her out to social events every night, and you’d resent it if she wanted you to sit with her watching TV every night: doing separate things every couple of nights will give you both a chance to pursue your individual interests and will then also give you things to talk about when you’re back together afterward.
Unless she’s dealing with depression or some other issue, she’ll find interests when she wants to. You can’t force her to take up hobbies or interests you want to discuss with her. I think you should work on finding satisfying outlets for your own interests (You want to talk politics? Arrange a bar/coffee night with friends who like talking politics.).
posted by Meg_Murry at 11:02 AM on December 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
2) How can I encourage her to become more engaged in the world, despite the pain that is out there. How can I interest her in science, or global warming beyond "hey we recycle"?
3) Is there anything I can do to help her find outside interests? Or more friends that are not simply spouses of my friends or along those lines?
2. Love your partner for who she is. Unless she genuinely wants to change (and it sounds like she's happy as-is), you're just going to foster resentment by harping on this.
3. Love your partner for who she is. Unless she genuinely wants to change (and it sounds like she's happy as-is), you're just going to foster resentment by harping on this.
Look, I love debating and arguing. Hell, I got a minor in philosophy in college. But sometimes my SO, whom I love dearly, decides to play devil's advocate and argue with me when I'm trying to tell him about my day, and it can be damned frustrating. In my experiences--particularly with other philosophy students in undergrad.--men often view discussion as a competition to be won, and will verbally steamroll people who disagree, even if they may be just tacitly disagreeing by not engaging. klangklangston touches on this--don't assume that because someone does not want to debate with you/debate with you anymore that they're too stupid to get your argument. They might just not agree, and they might just not care enough to expend the emotional energy in debating.
The fact that your SO gets upset by things on TV does not mean that she's some sort of uninformed troglodyte. It means that she has empathy--it means that she's emotionally involved in these issues, as we all, perhaps, should be. I would respect that instead of trying to strong-arming her into debates she doesn't want to get into.
Really, I'd try to figure out what she is interested in and share those things with her and find friends or drinking buddies or classmates you can debate with. Your partner shouldn't be, and really can't be, your only intellectual stimulation. I think you're putting too much pressure on her, and not respecting her for who she is. If it's that important to you to have a partner that engages with you in these ways, then she's probably not the one for you. Sorry.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:12 AM on December 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
3) Is there anything I can do to help her find outside interests? Or more friends that are not simply spouses of my friends or along those lines?
2. Love your partner for who she is. Unless she genuinely wants to change (and it sounds like she's happy as-is), you're just going to foster resentment by harping on this.
3. Love your partner for who she is. Unless she genuinely wants to change (and it sounds like she's happy as-is), you're just going to foster resentment by harping on this.
Look, I love debating and arguing. Hell, I got a minor in philosophy in college. But sometimes my SO, whom I love dearly, decides to play devil's advocate and argue with me when I'm trying to tell him about my day, and it can be damned frustrating. In my experiences--particularly with other philosophy students in undergrad.--men often view discussion as a competition to be won, and will verbally steamroll people who disagree, even if they may be just tacitly disagreeing by not engaging. klangklangston touches on this--don't assume that because someone does not want to debate with you/debate with you anymore that they're too stupid to get your argument. They might just not agree, and they might just not care enough to expend the emotional energy in debating.
The fact that your SO gets upset by things on TV does not mean that she's some sort of uninformed troglodyte. It means that she has empathy--it means that she's emotionally involved in these issues, as we all, perhaps, should be. I would respect that instead of trying to strong-arming her into debates she doesn't want to get into.
Really, I'd try to figure out what she is interested in and share those things with her and find friends or drinking buddies or classmates you can debate with. Your partner shouldn't be, and really can't be, your only intellectual stimulation. I think you're putting too much pressure on her, and not respecting her for who she is. If it's that important to you to have a partner that engages with you in these ways, then she's probably not the one for you. Sorry.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:12 AM on December 18, 2008 [4 favorites]
One conversation you guys could have to get to the bottom of this is to talk about the atmosphere when you were growing up. Did the family eat dinners together? Was there discussion of the day's topics? Did they have debates? What did you discuss with your siblings? Did your family get the paper? Watch or listen to the news? Did you parents have in depth discussions with each other in front of the kids?
I know that my parents had very in depth discussions about topics of the day and we frequently discussed "stuff we heard that day" at the dinner table. There were not too many "debates," though when we did disagree we could get somewhat heated but it was always in the frame of mutual understanding. I mean, unless it was, like, how short my skirts could be for wearing to school. Not too much mutual understanding there. But, I digress, it's this spirit of discussion that I was raised in that frames how I discuss and "debate" topics with my husband at the dinner table. My parents were also both in medical professions and loved to discuss science and medicine as well and even though we kids didn't know anything about it, they were always happy to answer questions at length. Growing up with parents that really encouraged intellectual discovery probably helps a lot. So, if you were raised one way and your partner was raised another, I think that that really informs how you view these discussions and may give you the tools to succeed at them.
So, maybe through this discussion, you guys can figure out how you want to communicate in your marriage.
I also agree with a number of the posters above who know that there is a difference between discussing topics and wanting to be a smartypants who knows more than their partner and WINS at every "discussion." That person is a boor and is not fun to talk with.
posted by amanda at 11:16 AM on December 18, 2008
I know that my parents had very in depth discussions about topics of the day and we frequently discussed "stuff we heard that day" at the dinner table. There were not too many "debates," though when we did disagree we could get somewhat heated but it was always in the frame of mutual understanding. I mean, unless it was, like, how short my skirts could be for wearing to school. Not too much mutual understanding there. But, I digress, it's this spirit of discussion that I was raised in that frames how I discuss and "debate" topics with my husband at the dinner table. My parents were also both in medical professions and loved to discuss science and medicine as well and even though we kids didn't know anything about it, they were always happy to answer questions at length. Growing up with parents that really encouraged intellectual discovery probably helps a lot. So, if you were raised one way and your partner was raised another, I think that that really informs how you view these discussions and may give you the tools to succeed at them.
So, maybe through this discussion, you guys can figure out how you want to communicate in your marriage.
I also agree with a number of the posters above who know that there is a difference between discussing topics and wanting to be a smartypants who knows more than their partner and WINS at every "discussion." That person is a boor and is not fun to talk with.
posted by amanda at 11:16 AM on December 18, 2008
As someone who just had a 2+ year relationship with a great guy where I nitpicked him about his perceived flaws rather than accepting that, overall, he was great....
If these two things are the only problems you've got going with your spouse, then it's not worth wrecking a good thing (and the serious commitment of marriage) over. Get some friends who want spirited debate, and appreciate the other things your spouse has to offer. Basically, you can't expect one person to fulfill your every need in life.
Also seconding what HotToddy said.
posted by lorrer at 11:32 AM on December 18, 2008
If these two things are the only problems you've got going with your spouse, then it's not worth wrecking a good thing (and the serious commitment of marriage) over. Get some friends who want spirited debate, and appreciate the other things your spouse has to offer. Basically, you can't expect one person to fulfill your every need in life.
Also seconding what HotToddy said.
posted by lorrer at 11:32 AM on December 18, 2008
When you say "debate," do you mean "chatting about things of mutual interest," or do you mean "aggressively attacking the other person until they cry uncle and acknowledge your brilliance"?
Because if it's anything approaching the second, then I can totally understand her passing on the whole thing by avoiding the news and refusing to "debate" about the latest movie.
One thing to consider is what the situation might look like from her perspective -- is she supported in all her interests and needs? Does she have people to talk to about the things that most interest her?
1) Are my expectations of all these cool conversations insane after being married 3 years? Is sitting in front of the TV 3 night out of the week okay and normal? Am I nuts to think we should go out more during the week?
No, it's not insane to expect cool conversations after being married three years -- the conversations should get better over time, not worse. But that relies on you doing what it takes to make this happen, not focusing on what she is doing wrong. There's a reason behind what she's doing, and unless you can figure that out, you are going to stay frustrated on this one.
TV three nights a week sounds dreadful to me, because I don't watch TV much. But movies three nights a week sounds great, as does sitting on the couch with our feet intertwined reading books, or listening to music while catching up on email. "Going out" can be both expensive and a pain in the ass after a long tough day, and isn't always all that much fun compared to just drinking a beer and decompressing at home, and catching up on the things that need doing. It's about balance and compromise, and the only way to get there is communication.
2) How can I encourage her to become more engaged in the world, despite the pain that is out there. How can I interest her in science, or global warming beyond "hey we recycle"?
Maybe you can't. Not everyone gets excited about those big-picture issues, and a very fair question is what kinds of small, hyper-local things are you ignoring by spending your time thinking about global warming? If you watched the news less often, could you build her a new bathroom, or repaint the guest bedroom? The point is that there are tradeoffs to everything, and right now you are only seeing what she is missing -- not what you are missing in turn.
3) Is there anything I can do to help her find outside interests? Or more friends that are not simply spouses of my friends or along those lines?
Fundamental question: is she happy now? If she is, then it's a case of "if it ain't broken, don't fix it." But if she is unhappy, bored, and lonely, then yes, she needs your support. But the two of you need to figure out what the barriers are -- what is stopping her? What can you change? Would it help if you took on some of the chores that are hers, so that she had more free time? Does she need more freedom, and to not have to justify her movements to you? Or are there budgetary issues, where the way you guys are doing your household finances makes her feel guilty or unable to spend money doing fun things for herself?
Finally, what is stopping you guys from having "his" and "hers" time -- if she wants to watch TV, you can drink a beer at a bar with friends, and she can go to her social hour while you catch up on your favorite book. There's no rule that says that married people have to spend X hours a week together, or have the same interests and activities.
posted by Forktine at 12:02 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Because if it's anything approaching the second, then I can totally understand her passing on the whole thing by avoiding the news and refusing to "debate" about the latest movie.
One thing to consider is what the situation might look like from her perspective -- is she supported in all her interests and needs? Does she have people to talk to about the things that most interest her?
1) Are my expectations of all these cool conversations insane after being married 3 years? Is sitting in front of the TV 3 night out of the week okay and normal? Am I nuts to think we should go out more during the week?
No, it's not insane to expect cool conversations after being married three years -- the conversations should get better over time, not worse. But that relies on you doing what it takes to make this happen, not focusing on what she is doing wrong. There's a reason behind what she's doing, and unless you can figure that out, you are going to stay frustrated on this one.
TV three nights a week sounds dreadful to me, because I don't watch TV much. But movies three nights a week sounds great, as does sitting on the couch with our feet intertwined reading books, or listening to music while catching up on email. "Going out" can be both expensive and a pain in the ass after a long tough day, and isn't always all that much fun compared to just drinking a beer and decompressing at home, and catching up on the things that need doing. It's about balance and compromise, and the only way to get there is communication.
2) How can I encourage her to become more engaged in the world, despite the pain that is out there. How can I interest her in science, or global warming beyond "hey we recycle"?
Maybe you can't. Not everyone gets excited about those big-picture issues, and a very fair question is what kinds of small, hyper-local things are you ignoring by spending your time thinking about global warming? If you watched the news less often, could you build her a new bathroom, or repaint the guest bedroom? The point is that there are tradeoffs to everything, and right now you are only seeing what she is missing -- not what you are missing in turn.
3) Is there anything I can do to help her find outside interests? Or more friends that are not simply spouses of my friends or along those lines?
Fundamental question: is she happy now? If she is, then it's a case of "if it ain't broken, don't fix it." But if she is unhappy, bored, and lonely, then yes, she needs your support. But the two of you need to figure out what the barriers are -- what is stopping her? What can you change? Would it help if you took on some of the chores that are hers, so that she had more free time? Does she need more freedom, and to not have to justify her movements to you? Or are there budgetary issues, where the way you guys are doing your household finances makes her feel guilty or unable to spend money doing fun things for herself?
Finally, what is stopping you guys from having "his" and "hers" time -- if she wants to watch TV, you can drink a beer at a bar with friends, and she can go to her social hour while you catch up on your favorite book. There's no rule that says that married people have to spend X hours a week together, or have the same interests and activities.
posted by Forktine at 12:02 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
You know, I have no musical talent whatsoever, but even so, the hypothetical woman in Ouroborous' example doesn't sound half bad. Like, if my SO told me that.. well, I'd jam, dammit. Or at least give it my best try. Maybe if she expected me to be good at it right off the bat, that'd be a problem, but given that proviso it sounds like a fun weird challenge.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:21 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:21 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
1) Are my expectations of all these cool conversations insane after being married 3 years?
It depends. Some people hook up mainly because of their conversations with one another. Others on physical attraction, or some other factor. What initially drew you to her? If it was something other than her conversation, then maybe you're not INSANE, but you are being unreasonable.
Is sitting in front of the TV 3 night out of the week okay and normal? Am I nuts to think we should go out more during the week?
Again, what were you guys initially like as a couple? I find it weird that you suddenly found yourself in this situation. What's changed in the relationship? Obviously it hasn't always been like this.
2) How can I encourage her to become more engaged in the world, despite the pain that is out there. How can I interest her in science, or global warming beyond "hey we recycle"?
Ew. What are you, her priest?
3) Is there anything I can do to help her find outside interests? Or more friends that are not simply spouses of my friends or along those lines?
Not unless she wants these things for herself.
You know, these "direct approaches" to changing people never seem to work. Maybe if you back off, try and find friends who'll chat with you about the things you love, and stop focusing on "how can I change her to suit my needs", she'll feel less pressure and more freedom to truly find out who she is.
posted by uxo at 12:37 PM on December 18, 2008
It depends. Some people hook up mainly because of their conversations with one another. Others on physical attraction, or some other factor. What initially drew you to her? If it was something other than her conversation, then maybe you're not INSANE, but you are being unreasonable.
Is sitting in front of the TV 3 night out of the week okay and normal? Am I nuts to think we should go out more during the week?
Again, what were you guys initially like as a couple? I find it weird that you suddenly found yourself in this situation. What's changed in the relationship? Obviously it hasn't always been like this.
2) How can I encourage her to become more engaged in the world, despite the pain that is out there. How can I interest her in science, or global warming beyond "hey we recycle"?
Ew. What are you, her priest?
3) Is there anything I can do to help her find outside interests? Or more friends that are not simply spouses of my friends or along those lines?
Not unless she wants these things for herself.
You know, these "direct approaches" to changing people never seem to work. Maybe if you back off, try and find friends who'll chat with you about the things you love, and stop focusing on "how can I change her to suit my needs", she'll feel less pressure and more freedom to truly find out who she is.
posted by uxo at 12:37 PM on December 18, 2008
It sounds like you may not feel intellectually stimulated by your SO, and that you're bored with her because of it. I have been with my SO for about the same amount of time as you, and I'm experiencing something similar with him. The TV watching thing really struck me. Except for him it's more like 24-7, not three nights a week. If only.
When I talk to him about these issues, he calls it "nagging." So I've stopped. I've quietly struck out on my own to get my needs met in the "cool conversations" department. I am starting to develop a network of cool friends. While my SO sits around watching "Charm School," I'm having lunch with people who are intimately involved in political activism and enjoy reading books and listening to the cool indie bands my SO deems "twee."
I have concluded that you can't expect a partner to fulfill your every need. I love my SO. He's affectionate, has a good heart, and is faithful. He's a talented musician and extremely bright. If you ask him about guitars he can tell you every detail of every brand ever made. He's progressive and concerned about politics. But he's an introvert and just not all that talkative. It's just the way he is and I have to love him for that if I want to stay with him. I'm an introvert too, but he is more on the extreme and I'm closer to the middle, if we're talking Myers-Briggs. He also just enjoys "vegging" way more than I do. I don't want to nag him but the tinny sound of the TV nags at me in a similarly annoying way, so I have to remove myself from it.
I don't see your post as being all that focused on debating although it seems like that word triggered a lot of negativity for some folks. I read it more as you want someone who challenges and stimulates you, bringing new ideas into the relationship. I don't know if those are realistic or unrealistic expectations. I once had a boyfriend who was tremendously intellectually stimulating and really into debating and it was too much of a good thing. I felt stupid when I was around him. That said, I was much younger then and less self-assured. I think you need to find balance. It could be that she feels intimidated by your intellect.
So far it's working for me to develop my own friends with outside interests. I'm hoping it will spur my boyfriend on to have more of a life of his own too, and thus become a more well-rounded person. But I can't nag him into it. I can only lead by example and let go of the expectation that he will follow.
posted by xenophile at 12:53 PM on December 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
When I talk to him about these issues, he calls it "nagging." So I've stopped. I've quietly struck out on my own to get my needs met in the "cool conversations" department. I am starting to develop a network of cool friends. While my SO sits around watching "Charm School," I'm having lunch with people who are intimately involved in political activism and enjoy reading books and listening to the cool indie bands my SO deems "twee."
I have concluded that you can't expect a partner to fulfill your every need. I love my SO. He's affectionate, has a good heart, and is faithful. He's a talented musician and extremely bright. If you ask him about guitars he can tell you every detail of every brand ever made. He's progressive and concerned about politics. But he's an introvert and just not all that talkative. It's just the way he is and I have to love him for that if I want to stay with him. I'm an introvert too, but he is more on the extreme and I'm closer to the middle, if we're talking Myers-Briggs. He also just enjoys "vegging" way more than I do. I don't want to nag him but the tinny sound of the TV nags at me in a similarly annoying way, so I have to remove myself from it.
I don't see your post as being all that focused on debating although it seems like that word triggered a lot of negativity for some folks. I read it more as you want someone who challenges and stimulates you, bringing new ideas into the relationship. I don't know if those are realistic or unrealistic expectations. I once had a boyfriend who was tremendously intellectually stimulating and really into debating and it was too much of a good thing. I felt stupid when I was around him. That said, I was much younger then and less self-assured. I think you need to find balance. It could be that she feels intimidated by your intellect.
So far it's working for me to develop my own friends with outside interests. I'm hoping it will spur my boyfriend on to have more of a life of his own too, and thus become a more well-rounded person. But I can't nag him into it. I can only lead by example and let go of the expectation that he will follow.
posted by xenophile at 12:53 PM on December 18, 2008 [2 favorites]
Do you love that she's compassionate? She sounds very much so.
Take your pick, compassionate and unable to 'debate' or argue with you...because she's caring....or 'more logical' and less compassionate.
Perhaps these two are too close for her to separate.
posted by filmgeek at 1:02 PM on December 18, 2008
Take your pick, compassionate and unable to 'debate' or argue with you...because she's caring....or 'more logical' and less compassionate.
Perhaps these two are too close for her to separate.
posted by filmgeek at 1:02 PM on December 18, 2008
This is because frequently he will say something like, "That's retarded. You don't know what you're talking about," and then proceed to prove his point again. When I eventually concede his point (whether I actually agree or not) he gets angry that I'm just "giving up".
OP, make sure you're not this guy.
posted by canine epigram at 1:10 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
OP, make sure you're not this guy.
posted by canine epigram at 1:10 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Maybe she thinks political debates get really stupid really quickly, and just doesn't want to play. "Debating" about geopolitical issues being, among other things, a pretty aggressive way of showing off -- and certainly not a substantive replacement for actually acting on them.
Point for the girlfriend?
posted by puckish at 3:48 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Point for the girlfriend?
posted by puckish at 3:48 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Another from the other point of view: I dated someone for a while who was really interesting and smart and nice and all that. But I soon realized we didn't talk so much as he 'lectured.' Just: "I am going to tell you all about this subject, all kinds of knowledge, and just give you my opinion on EVERYTHING, and not really let you talk. If you say something, why, I'll incorporate it into another part of my lecture." I didn't want impromptu college courses all the time.
Also, I can get tired of conversing when people become so damn . . predictable. If she can pretty well tell how you feel about every single thing, then she may find it's pointless to keep talking about it. (I have one friend who really dislikes organized religion. I don't mind -- but I don't email him newsarticles about "ha ha religion is so phony" because I already know what he's going to say. There's nothing new there.)
Last thing: there's a great quote somewhere, by Studs Terkel, I think, that is essentially "I'm tired of always having to have an opinion." We get bombarded by surveys and "CNN viewers speak up" and "vote for your favorite [Hollywood star, lipstick, cleaning product, etc.]" It's nice to NOT be asked what we think all the time -- and I think it's kind of a luxury to be allowed to NOT care about something (yes, even if other people think it's important).
posted by oldtimey at 4:45 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Also, I can get tired of conversing when people become so damn . . predictable. If she can pretty well tell how you feel about every single thing, then she may find it's pointless to keep talking about it. (I have one friend who really dislikes organized religion. I don't mind -- but I don't email him newsarticles about "ha ha religion is so phony" because I already know what he's going to say. There's nothing new there.)
Last thing: there's a great quote somewhere, by Studs Terkel, I think, that is essentially "I'm tired of always having to have an opinion." We get bombarded by surveys and "CNN viewers speak up" and "vote for your favorite [Hollywood star, lipstick, cleaning product, etc.]" It's nice to NOT be asked what we think all the time -- and I think it's kind of a luxury to be allowed to NOT care about something (yes, even if other people think it's important).
posted by oldtimey at 4:45 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Lots of good advice above, especially from HotToddy. I don't have much to add. But as someone who doesn't watch TV news, in part because I often find it too upsetting, here's something I'd like to repeat for emphasis (from PhoBWanKenobi):
The fact that your SO gets upset by things on TV does not mean that she's some sort of uninformed troglodyte. It means that she has empathy--it means that she's emotionally involved in these issues, as we all, perhaps, should be. I would respect that instead of trying to strong-arm her into debates she doesn't want to get into.
posted by velvet winter at 7:28 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
The fact that your SO gets upset by things on TV does not mean that she's some sort of uninformed troglodyte. It means that she has empathy--it means that she's emotionally involved in these issues, as we all, perhaps, should be. I would respect that instead of trying to strong-arm her into debates she doesn't want to get into.
posted by velvet winter at 7:28 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]
Just an alternative perspective since I'm one of those people who wouldn't be interested in the kind of conversations you're wanting to have. I am personally sick of conversations about global warming and the abstract state of the world that I want to teach people to talk about things that are part of our actual in-person life (i.e., I'm assuming you didn't observe climate change or find that dead body or make that scientific discovery). I feel like "wow, don't people have their own life so they don't have to live vicariously through news articles about distant events that undoubtedly distort what actually happened?" Maybe you could try talking to her about the lives of people you know, city council meetings you could actually attend, skills you could develop, goals the two of you have... things you can see or touch that involve people you personally know.
I also think it sounds like this might be one of those "nobody is everything" things and that you should find a good current events or political debates buddy, or volunteer on some political campaign or something.
posted by salvia at 2:03 AM on December 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
I also think it sounds like this might be one of those "nobody is everything" things and that you should find a good current events or political debates buddy, or volunteer on some political campaign or something.
posted by salvia at 2:03 AM on December 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Wow, that comment of mine needs a good editor. Sorry for my 2 am incoherence.
posted by salvia at 2:09 AM on December 19, 2008
posted by salvia at 2:09 AM on December 19, 2008
Or if we debate about a movie, she gets frustrated and doesn't debate back - she just wants to stop.
Ok, the danger signs I'm seeing here are - your choice of 'debate' over 'discuss'. That sounds like it's coming across as aggressive, confrontational, or argumentative. It might not, but it's being backed up by the use of frustrated. If she was just not interested, or quiet - it'd be petering out, she wouldn't be frustrated.
Check out some 'non-violent communication' techniques. Talk about new things, interesting things, even the things you really liked or found beautiful about something. But don't debate, and don't lecture! Mention one or just a few things you like, then give a pause and a glance, so that she could pick it up if she wanted to - I've been with many people who just didn't leave any conversational space to leap in!).
I've had my own conversational problems with partners, and would love to know how to have worked on that - but they didn't get frustrated, so I think I was dealing with a different issue.
posted by Elysum at 5:06 AM on December 19, 2008
Ok, the danger signs I'm seeing here are - your choice of 'debate' over 'discuss'. That sounds like it's coming across as aggressive, confrontational, or argumentative. It might not, but it's being backed up by the use of frustrated. If she was just not interested, or quiet - it'd be petering out, she wouldn't be frustrated.
Check out some 'non-violent communication' techniques. Talk about new things, interesting things, even the things you really liked or found beautiful about something. But don't debate, and don't lecture! Mention one or just a few things you like, then give a pause and a glance, so that she could pick it up if she wanted to - I've been with many people who just didn't leave any conversational space to leap in!).
I've had my own conversational problems with partners, and would love to know how to have worked on that - but they didn't get frustrated, so I think I was dealing with a different issue.
posted by Elysum at 5:06 AM on December 19, 2008
Wow, I had no idea that so many other people had similar problems to me and the Mrs. I am the debater in our relationship (and she is not), and I understand this and try to temper it. One thing I try to do is ask a lot of questions--in fact, the more interested I am, the more questions I end up asking. But apparently, it comes off as "interrogation".
So, assuming my experience is typical, don't do that.
I do feel for you. It's like, "If I don't express complete agreement to this statement, it'll be an "argument". But what do you say? "That's nice?" If I'm not asking a question about the statement, or playing devil's advocate (perhaps the same thing?), then all that seems left is to stare blankly or just nod. I mean, it just doesn't seem possible to hold a conversation if all I can essentially do is restate the same thing. It's frustrating.
I realize this sentiment is probably somewhat incorrect, and I suspect it's how the debaters in this thread feel at times. Please educate us, non-debaters. And thanks for the question and answers so far.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 4:15 PM on December 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
So, assuming my experience is typical, don't do that.
I do feel for you. It's like, "If I don't express complete agreement to this statement, it'll be an "argument". But what do you say? "That's nice?" If I'm not asking a question about the statement, or playing devil's advocate (perhaps the same thing?), then all that seems left is to stare blankly or just nod. I mean, it just doesn't seem possible to hold a conversation if all I can essentially do is restate the same thing. It's frustrating.
I realize this sentiment is probably somewhat incorrect, and I suspect it's how the debaters in this thread feel at times. Please educate us, non-debaters. And thanks for the question and answers so far.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 4:15 PM on December 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
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1. Some people just don't like to debate and talk about things like that. But sometimes people can change, too - I hated politics and most news when my SO and I first started dating, but after 4 1/2 years, I'm much more up on current events (he kind of "infected" me by talking about it anyway or sending me selected news links on topics I might be more interested in) and we talk about that often.
2. Have you just tried to bring up these subjects - or even bring up to her that you'd LIKE to talk more about these types of topics?
3. There's a big difference between encouraging her to develop more interests - you guys could make it a New Year's project, for example, to each try one new thing a month, either together or separately (and you could discuss together on a "date night" each month after you've tried it) - and her developing interests that you want to talk about (science, global warming). You may be able to get her to do the former - but the latter will be a lot harder. :)
4. TV 3 nights of the week isn't that unusual, in my experience, particularly with married couples with or without kids. Sometimes life is so crazy and stressed that couching a few nights a week feels like downtime. But maybe you could find TV shows - or movies - that you wouldn't normally watch, and discuss them afterwards? Try a new genre, rent a few documentaries, that sort of thing?
Regardless of the rest of your post, the thing that worries me the most is "I just don't know if I can remain in this situation for 50+ years..." If you haven't already discussed these concerns and the importance of them to you with your partner, it's time to start. If you have and she's still unwilling to try anything new, I'd suggest talking to her again and make sure she understands that you really feel like you need this - partners who love each other are willing to help the other get what they need. Already it sounds like you're feeling resentment, and without talking about it and working together to resolve it that resentment will build... and from there, it's just a hop, skip and jump to fucking up your relationship permanently. (again, from experience)
Good luck.
posted by twiki at 8:57 AM on December 18, 2008