Enlighten me about dairy, I don't want to be ignorant about my consumption!
December 3, 2006 2:41 PM Subscribe
What's the deal with dairy?
A quick search here and at sparkpeople, confirms that a lot of people these days are eliminating dairy for health reasons. In general, that's all they say, "its healthier". But why? I adore dairy and have been on medicine for a decade that impedes calcium absorbtion, so I eat a lot to mitigate that. So besides the fact that high fat is obviously not the best, why is a dairy free diet better?
BTW, I have seen all the PETA stuff, so I know about that side, I am asking about health.
A quick search here and at sparkpeople, confirms that a lot of people these days are eliminating dairy for health reasons. In general, that's all they say, "its healthier". But why? I adore dairy and have been on medicine for a decade that impedes calcium absorbtion, so I eat a lot to mitigate that. So besides the fact that high fat is obviously not the best, why is a dairy free diet better?
BTW, I have seen all the PETA stuff, so I know about that side, I am asking about health.
I read the Men's Health Abs Diet which said many good things about dairy. I googled for the information and this is pretty much the same thing they talked about in the book.
I think the main concerns are: you want to keep it low fat, not whole fat. You, ideally, want to find organic sources to avoid hormones and antibiotics. Otherwise, looks good.
posted by birdie birdington at 2:51 PM on December 3, 2006 [1 favorite]
I think the main concerns are: you want to keep it low fat, not whole fat. You, ideally, want to find organic sources to avoid hormones and antibiotics. Otherwise, looks good.
posted by birdie birdington at 2:51 PM on December 3, 2006 [1 favorite]
There's a lot of mysticism about dairy, most of which I think is an utter crock. Among the non-crocky claims is that dairy is a major source of saturated fats.
On the other hand, it's also an excellent source of protein and vitamin D. Myself, I consume huge amounts of cheese as a regular part of my diet.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 2:56 PM on December 3, 2006
On the other hand, it's also an excellent source of protein and vitamin D. Myself, I consume huge amounts of cheese as a regular part of my diet.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 2:56 PM on December 3, 2006
You don't have to go very far in the medical literature to see that some physicians and dietitians think that diet with dairy can be better. Just look at some of the most recent review abstracts for a search for [dairy diet] on PubMed:
The only reason I bring this up is to point out that there is definitely no medical or scientific consensus that a dairy-free diet is better, or even harmless. If this question presupposes that a dairy-free diet is better, I think that is wrong.
posted by grouse at 3:07 PM on December 3, 2006
- "The American Academy of Pediatrics supports use of dairy foods as an important source of calcium for bone mineral health and of other nutrients that facilitate growth in children and adolescents."
- "Data from cross-sectional epidemiological studies support the hypothesis that a dairy food-rich diet is associated with lower fat accumulation in adults and children..."
- "There is an inverse association between the intake of dairy products and hypertension, stroke and colorectal cancer."
- "High dairy intake was generally associated with reduced risk for components of metabolic syndrome with some inconsistency in the literature regarding risk of obesity."
- "A nutritionally complete diet rich in fruits, vegetables, and low-fat dairy foods has been clearly proven to significantly lower BP in all population groups."
The only reason I bring this up is to point out that there is definitely no medical or scientific consensus that a dairy-free diet is better, or even harmless. If this question presupposes that a dairy-free diet is better, I think that is wrong.
posted by grouse at 3:07 PM on December 3, 2006
To restate that, I think that instead of asking why non-dairy is better, you should ask if it is better, and why or why not?
posted by grouse at 3:10 PM on December 3, 2006
posted by grouse at 3:10 PM on December 3, 2006
I was told by my doctor: Humans are the only mammals that continue to ingest milk after being weaned (even if it's not human milk). As mammals, the presence of the enzyme needed for lactose digestion should decrease as we get older. Because we keep ingesting milk and milk products, our bodies can keep making this enzyme and we are able to digest them properly. Lactose intolerance occurs because each person's body is different: my body may not be able to keep making the enzyme as long as yours can. Primary lactose intolerance is, therefore, natural.
Now IMO, if [insert your higher power or evolution here] designed our bodies to stop drinking milk when we're weaned and become lactose intolerant, perhaps it is best to avoid dairy, thus avoiding disruption of our digestive systems.
That being said, I love cheese. :)
posted by youngergirl44 at 3:16 PM on December 3, 2006
Now IMO, if [insert your higher power or evolution here] designed our bodies to stop drinking milk when we're weaned and become lactose intolerant, perhaps it is best to avoid dairy, thus avoiding disruption of our digestive systems.
That being said, I love cheese. :)
posted by youngergirl44 at 3:16 PM on December 3, 2006
Dairy is not a good source of vitamin D, unless fortified (so you might as well take a supplement directly). There is some vitamin D in very concentrated dairy, like butter, but you would have to eat LOTS of it to get the RDA. It is a good source of calcium, but the calcium in dairy is not as well absorbed as the calcium in, say, kale, which also provides much more calcium per calorie.
Studies that show the benefits of dairy are (like many nutrition studies) mostly meaningless because they assume a nutrient-deficient diet. In our modern diets, where we eat almost no vegetables and very little other anti-oxidant rich foods, and way too much sugar, dairy is an important source of some vitamins and minerals. If we would eat healthier diets to begin with (like the two third of the world's population that does not consume dairy), the results would be very different.
You could read Walter Willett's "Eat, Drink and Be Healthy" for a Harvard's professor point of view. Here is his view on calcium and milk.
posted by davar at 3:28 PM on December 3, 2006
Studies that show the benefits of dairy are (like many nutrition studies) mostly meaningless because they assume a nutrient-deficient diet. In our modern diets, where we eat almost no vegetables and very little other anti-oxidant rich foods, and way too much sugar, dairy is an important source of some vitamins and minerals. If we would eat healthier diets to begin with (like the two third of the world's population that does not consume dairy), the results would be very different.
You could read Walter Willett's "Eat, Drink and Be Healthy" for a Harvard's professor point of view. Here is his view on calcium and milk.
posted by davar at 3:28 PM on December 3, 2006
Arguments about what is "natural" are not very convincing. Eating cooked food is not "natural" either.
posted by grouse at 3:35 PM on December 3, 2006
posted by grouse at 3:35 PM on December 3, 2006
Part of the mysticism is that "natural" is better.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 4:04 PM on December 3, 2006
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 4:04 PM on December 3, 2006
I've always tried to eat everything in moderation and combine that with an active lifestyle. I still get to eat the cheese I love, just not all of it everyday.
posted by hangingbyathread at 4:06 PM on December 3, 2006
posted by hangingbyathread at 4:06 PM on December 3, 2006
I tried being vegan for a week and I felt so much better that I kept it up for two years (despite being a huge pain in the ass in my college's dining halls). I eventually added everything back into my diet (incl. meat, which I'd quit 10 years earlier) except milk. So when I found out that tons of people are allergic to milk or intolerant of lactose, all my symptoms made sense. That's my reason it's better for my health.
But a lot of resources on why people don't actually need milk for good nutrition, and that it can sometimes be bad for your health, can be found from MilkSucks. It was put together by PETA in the UK, which made me think it'd be flaky and "biased" until I realized all their citations about health were from peer-reviewed research journals. Check out "Milk: No Longer Recommended or Required" by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. They talk about diabetes, lactose allergies, and the fact that “greens such as kale can be considered to be at least as good as milk in terms of their calcium absorbability.”
posted by salvia at 4:18 PM on December 3, 2006
But a lot of resources on why people don't actually need milk for good nutrition, and that it can sometimes be bad for your health, can be found from MilkSucks. It was put together by PETA in the UK, which made me think it'd be flaky and "biased" until I realized all their citations about health were from peer-reviewed research journals. Check out "Milk: No Longer Recommended or Required" by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. They talk about diabetes, lactose allergies, and the fact that “greens such as kale can be considered to be at least as good as milk in terms of their calcium absorbability.”
posted by salvia at 4:18 PM on December 3, 2006
The only "unhealthy" attribute of dairy I've ever heard of is the high fat content, so as long as you choose low fat dairy products (ie. skim or lowfat milk, lowfat cheese, lowfat or nonfat yogurt, etc.), dairy is good for you. It's an excellent source of protein, especially if you're not a big meat eater (like myself), and it is usually fortified with vitamin D. And calcium is especially important. If you weren't getting it from dairy you'd probably have to take it in supplement form to get the amount you need, so why not just get it from a couple servings of dairy products a day since you already like them? There was also that study from a couple of years ago that said that women who drank 24 oz. of lowfat or skim milk a day were more likely to lose weight. So, in short, I don't see any reason for you to suddenly go no dairy if you like dairy.
posted by katyggls at 4:29 PM on December 3, 2006
posted by katyggls at 4:29 PM on December 3, 2006
I consider the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine to be a PETA front group. Even if you ignore their ties with PETA, it is clear that they would not publish a report that supported any diet other than a vegan diet.
In no sense am I denying that there are good studies that indicate bad effects of dairy. But I wouldn't change the way I eat on a review from a biased source that would ignore good effects of dairy that are just as well-proven.
posted by grouse at 4:32 PM on December 3, 2006
In no sense am I denying that there are good studies that indicate bad effects of dairy. But I wouldn't change the way I eat on a review from a biased source that would ignore good effects of dairy that are just as well-proven.
posted by grouse at 4:32 PM on December 3, 2006
Best answer: Things to worry about are: lactose intolerance - some people stop making the enzyme needed to digest lactose, a milk found in sugar, but they can still eat most fermented products, like yogurt and cheese, and you can always eat some lactase with your dairy, even if you don't make the enzyme. Saturated fat making up a large percentage of your diet, like >30-40% of each meal's calories - too much saturated fat may increase your risk of heart disease.
Things NOT to worry about: bovine growth hormone the fact that most mammals quit eating dairy after gestation allergies to milk proteins, unless your doctor tells you different. a little bit of saturated fat, provided you're reasonably active.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 4:44 PM on December 3, 2006
Things NOT to worry about:
posted by Mr. Gunn at 4:44 PM on December 3, 2006
Personally, I could go either way with milk (on the other hand, I love most cheeses). The only kind of milk that I really like is whole milk, so I don't drink it often. So to compensate for the lack of Vitamin D I get, I just take a daily multivitamin.
posted by booticon at 4:53 PM on December 3, 2006
posted by booticon at 4:53 PM on December 3, 2006
When I'm denying myself the cheese I love so much, yogurt is my major source of dairy. Low fat yogurt (particularly if it isn't sweetened with corn syrup) is very good for you. Of course there's the calcium, protein, and the vitamin D, but it's all those happy little bacteria that are such powerhouses. I feel better when I'm really rocking the yogurt (particularly my digestion).
posted by mostlymartha at 5:39 PM on December 3, 2006
posted by mostlymartha at 5:39 PM on December 3, 2006
Weight Watchers claims that if the number of calories is held constant, you will lose more weight (or gain less) if you include a higher proportion of dairy, like regularly eating yogurt.
Just some (dairy) food for thought.
posted by SuperNova at 7:35 PM on December 3, 2006
Just some (dairy) food for thought.
posted by SuperNova at 7:35 PM on December 3, 2006
I don't think anyone has mentioned the book Nature's Perfect Food. It's does a good job of explaining why we consume as much milk as we do.
The most "a-ha" info from the book for me is that we as a society would NOT be eating/drinking so many milk products if milk production were not so heavily subsidized by the government the past few decades. The "Got Milk" commercials are a good example of advertising by the American Dairy Council (a government organization) to ensure the subsidies don't go to waste.
The high volume consumption of milk is a relatively recent phenomenon.
posted by Bradley at 7:37 PM on December 3, 2006
The most "a-ha" info from the book for me is that we as a society would NOT be eating/drinking so many milk products if milk production were not so heavily subsidized by the government the past few decades. The "Got Milk" commercials are a good example of advertising by the American Dairy Council (a government organization) to ensure the subsidies don't go to waste.
The high volume consumption of milk is a relatively recent phenomenon.
posted by Bradley at 7:37 PM on December 3, 2006
Cutting out dairy relieved the worst of my mom's rheumatoid arthritis pain. It was amazing. I left for school one September, accustomed to seeing her navigate stairs by turning sideways, gripping the rail tightly in both hands and stepping gingerly while grimacing with pain. I came back at Christmas to see her going up and down like a normal person. She'd done one of those three-week "elimination diets" and discovered that, for whatever reason, the low-fat yogurt, milk and cottage cheese she loved to eat every day exacerbated the arthritis pain. When she experimented with eating just a little dairy, the awful pain came back.
Some individuals will have idiosyncratic reactions to certain foods, no matter what this or that set of guidelines says. In any case it seems to me that the important thing is whether you feel healthier eating, or not eating, dairy.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 8:21 PM on December 3, 2006
Some individuals will have idiosyncratic reactions to certain foods, no matter what this or that set of guidelines says. In any case it seems to me that the important thing is whether you feel healthier eating, or not eating, dairy.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 8:21 PM on December 3, 2006
I like dairy myself. I do however view with skepticism any study that says "dairy is good for you" when said study is funded by the American Dairy Association. Always ask who paid for the advertising. When impartial groups say it is good, then you can feel more sure that they aren't just trying to sell you something.
posted by caution live frogs at 9:51 PM on December 3, 2006
posted by caution live frogs at 9:51 PM on December 3, 2006
it is usually fortified with vitamin D.
Maybe if you live in the US or UK? In most countries of the world, milk is not fortified with vitamin D.
If you weren't getting it from dairy you'd probably have to take it in supplement form to get the amount you need
Only if you eat an unhealthy diet. The 70% of the world's population that are lactose intolerant do not all need to take calcium supplements. If you eat your greens every day, calcium is just not a problem.
Saturated fat is not the only problem with milk, though it is the most important one. See Walter Willett (linked before), he also talks about milk and cancer. He is most defininately not a PETA spokesperson, he does not recommend a vegan diet at all, but he does warn against milk. "If you want to prevent bone fractures, forget the milk and take your cow for a walk" is one of his sayings.
posted by davar at 1:04 AM on December 4, 2006
Maybe if you live in the US or UK? In most countries of the world, milk is not fortified with vitamin D.
If you weren't getting it from dairy you'd probably have to take it in supplement form to get the amount you need
Only if you eat an unhealthy diet. The 70% of the world's population that are lactose intolerant do not all need to take calcium supplements. If you eat your greens every day, calcium is just not a problem.
Saturated fat is not the only problem with milk, though it is the most important one. See Walter Willett (linked before), he also talks about milk and cancer. He is most defininately not a PETA spokesperson, he does not recommend a vegan diet at all, but he does warn against milk. "If you want to prevent bone fractures, forget the milk and take your cow for a walk" is one of his sayings.
posted by davar at 1:04 AM on December 4, 2006
Umm, Watler Willett himself even says that the links between milk and cancer aren't really that firm (specifically, he mentions one study linking prostate cancer and calcium, and he mentions that ovarian cancer sometimes is and sometimes isn't linked to dairy). I wouldn't worry about dairy as a link to cancer any more than I would worry about cell phone radiation. Here's the way I treat my dairy intake: keep it low fat, and if it doesn't make you nauseous (ie lactose tolerance), enjoy!
posted by antifuse at 1:29 AM on December 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by antifuse at 1:29 AM on December 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
Plain milk makes me phlegm-y. Yech. I went for years thinking I had a sinus infection or something but all it was was phlegm from drinking lots of milk, all the time. Once I stopped drinking milk, that whole issue went away.
There is anecdotal evidence that direct milk consumption increases allergic reactions, but I have no clue whether anyone has ever studied it. But my uncle, a dairy farmer, stopped drinking it as his allergies to hay dust got to the point where he couldn't work in the barn. He stopped drinking milk and his allergies basically went away. (of course, he generally drinks the raw stuff from his cooler, so YMMV).
But yogurt, cheese and cooked milk don't have the same effect, so I eat lots of that.
posted by GuyZero at 7:37 AM on December 4, 2006
There is anecdotal evidence that direct milk consumption increases allergic reactions, but I have no clue whether anyone has ever studied it. But my uncle, a dairy farmer, stopped drinking it as his allergies to hay dust got to the point where he couldn't work in the barn. He stopped drinking milk and his allergies basically went away. (of course, he generally drinks the raw stuff from his cooler, so YMMV).
But yogurt, cheese and cooked milk don't have the same effect, so I eat lots of that.
posted by GuyZero at 7:37 AM on December 4, 2006
Best answer: kableh: "I thought the dairy/cancer link was due to rBGH?"
Let's just cut the bullshit right now. Juskevich et al. Science Volume 249:875-84.
Follow up study, 9 years later, trying to figure out why people still think it's bad. The conclusion pretty much comes down to lack of education and mistrust of regulators. Another significant contributor to that belief is the feeling that industrial production of milk is shutting down the small family farmers.
I found one study claiming that there were health risks, but the risks were unspecified and, upon further review, the author, Samuel Epstein, is the founder of the Cancer Prevention Coalition, an advocacy group that wants you to buy their book that tells you why milk is bad. The only actual mechanism they propose is something to do with IGF-1, which has been shown to have no effect on laboratory animals.
So unless Dr. Epstein wants to jump into the thread here and tell everyone why the FDA is full of crap, I think we gotta let this one go.
Cancer cures are the "grand unified theory" of medicine, so any time someone tells you that something causes/cures cancer, ask them what they're selling.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 8:20 AM on December 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
Let's just cut the bullshit right now. Juskevich et al. Science Volume 249:875-84.
Follow up study, 9 years later, trying to figure out why people still think it's bad. The conclusion pretty much comes down to lack of education and mistrust of regulators. Another significant contributor to that belief is the feeling that industrial production of milk is shutting down the small family farmers.
I found one study claiming that there were health risks, but the risks were unspecified and, upon further review, the author, Samuel Epstein, is the founder of the Cancer Prevention Coalition, an advocacy group that wants you to buy their book that tells you why milk is bad. The only actual mechanism they propose is something to do with IGF-1, which has been shown to have no effect on laboratory animals.
So unless Dr. Epstein wants to jump into the thread here and tell everyone why the FDA is full of crap, I think we gotta let this one go.
Cancer cures are the "grand unified theory" of medicine, so any time someone tells you that something causes/cures cancer, ask them what they're selling.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 8:20 AM on December 4, 2006 [1 favorite]
I've read some studies which show that the high protein content in dairy actually prevents your body from absorbing calcium.
Protien causes the blood to turn acidic, and the body releases calium into the bloodstream to neutralise this acidity.
I am lactose intolerant and I also suffer from a small calcium deficiency. Both my naturopath and my doctor have recommended I take a calcium-magnesium suplement (with Vitamin D) in order to increase my intake of calcium. I find this works really well for me and there is no fat involved.
posted by vansly at 8:54 AM on December 4, 2006
Protien causes the blood to turn acidic, and the body releases calium into the bloodstream to neutralise this acidity.
I am lactose intolerant and I also suffer from a small calcium deficiency. Both my naturopath and my doctor have recommended I take a calcium-magnesium suplement (with Vitamin D) in order to increase my intake of calcium. I find this works really well for me and there is no fat involved.
posted by vansly at 8:54 AM on December 4, 2006
Plain milk makes me phlegm-y. Yech.
This is what I've always considered the source for the dairy-bad notion (that is, if you're not lactose-intolerant).
We've had discussions here previously about spitting, and swallowing phlegm, and it seems there's a certain percentage who believe mucas a poison, to be expelled immediately; and the rest of us just swallow and don't give it a second thought. The former is the group who may find eliminating dairy from their diets appealing, even mandatory -- but is there any actual proof that more dairy in the diet triggers an increase in mucas production?
(Interesting story, BTW, cybercoitus i.)
posted by Rash at 9:13 AM on December 4, 2006
This is what I've always considered the source for the dairy-bad notion (that is, if you're not lactose-intolerant).
We've had discussions here previously about spitting, and swallowing phlegm, and it seems there's a certain percentage who believe mucas a poison, to be expelled immediately; and the rest of us just swallow and don't give it a second thought. The former is the group who may find eliminating dairy from their diets appealing, even mandatory -- but is there any actual proof that more dairy in the diet triggers an increase in mucas production?
(Interesting story, BTW, cybercoitus i.)
posted by Rash at 9:13 AM on December 4, 2006
There are health issues other than cancer associated with rBGH. I try to avoid it (in both dairy and beef) due to its link to earlier menarche in women, and other reproductive systems issues. (I also feel there are environmental pluses to disallowing farmers to use steroids or other injections or treatments, which ultimately do become benefits to my own health.)
posted by occhiblu at 2:15 PM on December 4, 2006
posted by occhiblu at 2:15 PM on December 4, 2006
Err, that is, the environmental benefits that accrue in the world when farmers don't use shortcuts and are forced to treat their animals humanely, and keep them healthy or risk losing money, are ultimately beneficial for my health.
posted by occhiblu at 2:23 PM on December 4, 2006
posted by occhiblu at 2:23 PM on December 4, 2006
yeah, occhiblu, there may be, but the only reason we're worried about this stuff is because we(as in you and I) aren't suffering from a shortage of food. If you can afford to buy milk from humanely treated cows fed only dandelions, by all means do so. But you've not got anything to worry about because rBGH is not active in humans, and wouldn't be active orally, anyways, provided you could even come close to a physiologically relevant dose in your daily consumption. rBGH-free stuff is just like the fat-free stuff of last decade. It's marketing and branding to sell products, mostly devoid of any real health differences. This is coming from someone who does all their shopping at Whole Foods, BTW, so I'm not against carbon-containing foods. ;-) I'm just sayin' that if anyone's going to be using empty dogma manipulate the masses for their own personal benefit, it damn well better be for my benefit, too, and I haven't gotten a dime from anyone.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 1:38 PM on December 5, 2006
posted by Mr. Gunn at 1:38 PM on December 5, 2006
Of course if you are buying organic milk that is being produced in a factory far away and then transported extra distance with fossil fuels, that's not so great for being environmentally sound.
posted by grouse at 4:17 PM on December 5, 2006
posted by grouse at 4:17 PM on December 5, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by paxton at 2:48 PM on December 3, 2006