Going to Zanzibar
December 1, 2004 6:49 AM Subscribe
GayBoycottFilter: It looks like I'm going to be stopping in Zanzibar for vacation. In August they passed a law punishing sodomy the same as murder. Are there ways to go to a country and still make sure that money only goes to places where it can help?
Basically, since it looks like this is (rather unfortunately) inevitable, what's the best way to get through this with a somewhat clear concious?
Basically, since it looks like this is (rather unfortunately) inevitable, what's the best way to get through this with a somewhat clear concious?
an inevitable vacation? that's a new one.
anyway, try to find the most cosmopolitan part of the largest urban centre. still rich, but not cosmopolitan, will be conservative. poor will be uneducated homopobia. from my (straight, limited) experience of other (non-african/non-islamic) countries.
on preview - it's not just the govt. it's the religious leaders and, probably, a majority of the people. like the usa.
posted by andrew cooke at 7:31 AM on December 1, 2004
anyway, try to find the most cosmopolitan part of the largest urban centre. still rich, but not cosmopolitan, will be conservative. poor will be uneducated homopobia. from my (straight, limited) experience of other (non-african/non-islamic) countries.
on preview - it's not just the govt. it's the religious leaders and, probably, a majority of the people. like the usa.
posted by andrew cooke at 7:31 AM on December 1, 2004
Boycotts aren't just about the money, they are about standing on principle. I'm not sure what's 'inevitable' about visiting Zanizibar and would venture to say the vast majority of people have managed to avoid the country their entire lives.
If need a salve for your conscious why not find a group in Zanzibar working for change and donate an amount roughly equivalent to what you would paying in taxes during your visit. This way you would, at the least, be breaking even karmically.
posted by cedar at 7:43 AM on December 1, 2004
If need a salve for your conscious why not find a group in Zanzibar working for change and donate an amount roughly equivalent to what you would paying in taxes during your visit. This way you would, at the least, be breaking even karmically.
posted by cedar at 7:43 AM on December 1, 2004
My guess is that hummus has to go there for a family occasion of some sort (or perhaps a friend's wedding) which was planned for Zanzibar without hummus's input.
I like cedar's idea of figuring out the taxes paid and donating the cash to people working for change. I would just figure out what I spent and donate 10% of that.
andrew cooke, the majority of people in the United States do NOT believe that "sodomy" should be illegal at all--let alone punished similarly to murder.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:14 AM on December 1, 2004
I like cedar's idea of figuring out the taxes paid and donating the cash to people working for change. I would just figure out what I spent and donate 10% of that.
andrew cooke, the majority of people in the United States do NOT believe that "sodomy" should be illegal at all--let alone punished similarly to murder.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:14 AM on December 1, 2004
that wasn't my point (and if you don't know it, then i'm amazed). you can't single out the government when it is reflecting what many in the country believe. a corresponding example would be objecting to the iraq war - not sodomy.
for example, it would be completely stupid, in this case, to try desperately to avoid paying taxes and then give all your money to the religious leaders that pushed for the ban in the first place.
either you're being deliberately obtuse, or you're blinded by a peculiarly american approach to govt that sees it as some kind of alien force without support or justification.
posted by andrew cooke at 8:27 AM on December 1, 2004
for example, it would be completely stupid, in this case, to try desperately to avoid paying taxes and then give all your money to the religious leaders that pushed for the ban in the first place.
either you're being deliberately obtuse, or you're blinded by a peculiarly american approach to govt that sees it as some kind of alien force without support or justification.
posted by andrew cooke at 8:27 AM on December 1, 2004
i'd not go--do you really have to?
You could patronize only gay hotels, and restaurants and stuff while you're there, and donate to whatever local gay organizations exist, but you really shouldn't go at all.
posted by amberglow at 8:33 AM on December 1, 2004
You could patronize only gay hotels, and restaurants and stuff while you're there, and donate to whatever local gay organizations exist, but you really shouldn't go at all.
posted by amberglow at 8:33 AM on December 1, 2004
No, I really didn't see what your point was, andrew cooke, but now that you've gone into more detail, I do see it.
I don't think that it's a particularly American approach to government to see it as an "alien force without support or justification" either--the phrases "Margaret Thatcher" and "poll tax" come to mind.
I do agree that it would be silly for hummus to "give all his money to the religious leaders that pushed for the ban in the first place". Did anyone suggest that?
I think that both cedar and I were pretty clear in suggesting that he donate the money to organizations that are fighting for the rights of gay people in Zanzibar as a way to offset the money earned by the discriminatory Zanzibari government.
I don't think either of us is being deliberately obtuse, but maybe we both need more coffee.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:56 AM on December 1, 2004
I don't think that it's a particularly American approach to government to see it as an "alien force without support or justification" either--the phrases "Margaret Thatcher" and "poll tax" come to mind.
I do agree that it would be silly for hummus to "give all his money to the religious leaders that pushed for the ban in the first place". Did anyone suggest that?
I think that both cedar and I were pretty clear in suggesting that he donate the money to organizations that are fighting for the rights of gay people in Zanzibar as a way to offset the money earned by the discriminatory Zanzibari government.
I don't think either of us is being deliberately obtuse, but maybe we both need more coffee.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:56 AM on December 1, 2004
I personally don't see the point of boycotting a country because you disagree with govt policies, or even the views of the people. To me, the best policy is to go there and be your liberal self. How is this country going to improve if people who support gay rights (or whatever it may be) stay out? Go to Zanzibar and talk about your views with the people.
posted by sid at 9:10 AM on December 1, 2004
posted by sid at 9:10 AM on December 1, 2004
andrew: I don't think anyone is saying that taxes should by bypassed. Practically speaking that isn't going to be possible. In a country where sodomy is punishable by death it isn't going to be easy to even find gay businesses to patronize. I'm thinking 'gay friendly' isn't going to be in the brochure.
So, providing the trip, for whatever reason, is inevitable and canceling isn't possible the idea is to mitigate the damage. I don't think that it is obtuse to explore methods of doing that. We're probably not going to change Zanzibar but we may be able to help one person feel better about his trip and possibly do a wee bit of good while he is there.
Also, I would not assume that it is the will of the people of Zanzibar to punish homosexuals with death. As someone blessed with the electoral college I can assure you that even in a representative republic the will of the majority does not always prevail -- in a repressive tyranny it almost certainly does not.
posted by cedar at 9:45 AM on December 1, 2004
So, providing the trip, for whatever reason, is inevitable and canceling isn't possible the idea is to mitigate the damage. I don't think that it is obtuse to explore methods of doing that. We're probably not going to change Zanzibar but we may be able to help one person feel better about his trip and possibly do a wee bit of good while he is there.
Also, I would not assume that it is the will of the people of Zanzibar to punish homosexuals with death. As someone blessed with the electoral college I can assure you that even in a representative republic the will of the majority does not always prevail -- in a repressive tyranny it almost certainly does not.
posted by cedar at 9:45 AM on December 1, 2004
Response by poster: Thank you all for your assistance -- this has been extremely helpful.
The reason that this trip is inevitable is that whenever somebody asks if I want to go somewhere, my immediate response is always "of course." I don't go into ocd trip planning until a later time. Unfortunately, my system blew up on me.
I'm in the process of desperately trying to change my plans. But I like to have a backup in case I can't.
The problem is that they are putting gay men in jail for 25 years (for some reason lesbians only get seven), and from everything I've been able to find, this law passed extremely easily.
Gay shops? Doubt it. Gay bars in a Muslim country? Certainly not (although there is a great place in Instanbul).
As far as being my liberal self: Hells No.
Keep it coming, please -- I especially like the donation idea.
posted by hummus at 9:52 AM on December 1, 2004
The reason that this trip is inevitable is that whenever somebody asks if I want to go somewhere, my immediate response is always "of course." I don't go into ocd trip planning until a later time. Unfortunately, my system blew up on me.
I'm in the process of desperately trying to change my plans. But I like to have a backup in case I can't.
The problem is that they are putting gay men in jail for 25 years (for some reason lesbians only get seven), and from everything I've been able to find, this law passed extremely easily.
Gay shops? Doubt it. Gay bars in a Muslim country? Certainly not (although there is a great place in Instanbul).
As far as being my liberal self: Hells No.
Keep it coming, please -- I especially like the donation idea.
posted by hummus at 9:52 AM on December 1, 2004
I've been to Zanzibar and I left just as rioting broke out around the 2000 elections.
Political tension in the islands is complex and only barely held in check at present. I'd recommend getting out of Stonetown ASAP and head north to somewhere like Kendwa, or head west to Bweju. Find a nice beach hostel there and keep your head down. Avoid Pemba Island, its beautiful, but it can be pretty dangerous getting there.
I don't see how staying in Zanzibar and donating to a local "gay rights" group will help anyone long term, except maybe to make you feel better. If you must go and want to donate to something, make your donation to one of the major non-governmental organisations (NGOs) with projects in the area that focus on gender/sexuality rights as Amnestys and Oxfams are likely to be able to exert greater pressure on the Zanzibari government.
The best move that you could make would be to boycott the island. Tourism is the major revenue source for Zanzibar, so why not jump on the boat over to mainland Tanzania (they go every 20-30 minutes to Dar es Salaam) and head down the East African coast. You could maybe book a trip west to the Seregeti National park, or if you are the outdoors (and fit) type, you could even climb Kili.
Just coz your flying into Zanzibar diesn't mean you have to stay there and spend your money there.
You could consider stopping buying cloves too as they represent another major revenue source for Zanzibar.
posted by davehat at 1:17 PM on December 1, 2004
Political tension in the islands is complex and only barely held in check at present. I'd recommend getting out of Stonetown ASAP and head north to somewhere like Kendwa, or head west to Bweju. Find a nice beach hostel there and keep your head down. Avoid Pemba Island, its beautiful, but it can be pretty dangerous getting there.
I don't see how staying in Zanzibar and donating to a local "gay rights" group will help anyone long term, except maybe to make you feel better. If you must go and want to donate to something, make your donation to one of the major non-governmental organisations (NGOs) with projects in the area that focus on gender/sexuality rights as Amnestys and Oxfams are likely to be able to exert greater pressure on the Zanzibari government.
The best move that you could make would be to boycott the island. Tourism is the major revenue source for Zanzibar, so why not jump on the boat over to mainland Tanzania (they go every 20-30 minutes to Dar es Salaam) and head down the East African coast. You could maybe book a trip west to the Seregeti National park, or if you are the outdoors (and fit) type, you could even climb Kili.
Just coz your flying into Zanzibar diesn't mean you have to stay there and spend your money there.
You could consider stopping buying cloves too as they represent another major revenue source for Zanzibar.
posted by davehat at 1:17 PM on December 1, 2004
This thread is closed to new comments.
But practically, I suppose you could guess how much money you are giving to the government in taxes and fees, and then give the same amount to the local gay activitists. And try not to visit anything obviously government-run. That would be the closest you could get to making it a zero-sum visit.
posted by smackfu at 7:27 AM on December 1, 2004