The Story of (a) Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah
March 18, 2008 12:56 AM Subscribe
My grandmother owns an unusually-shaped lot in San Francisco.
The thin part is about four feet wide, while the fat part is immediately behind the house. It's about 140 feet long. Apparently this may have been a public path, possibly used by people who collected waste from outhouses (or so I've heard) that was eventually sold by the city and bought by my grandmother. I'd like to find a use for this lot, and so I have a few questions. Here is an overhead view.
1. There is an inconveniently placed utility pole right in the middle of it, which makes it difficult to use as a path, since it's only four feet wide. My uncle called the company some years ago, and they were not eager to move it (obviously). Do they have the right to have it there? Can I call them up and ask them to produce some paperwork showing their right to use it? Can I get them to pay rent? Would or should they have a lien or something on file at city hall?
2. One part of the lot has been encircled by a neighbor's fence, while others, I believe, have even been encroached upon by sheds. I think this makes it vulnerable to claims of adverse possession (squatter's rights). I don't know the neighbors. What's the best way to approach this? Can I do something simple to mitigate this risk?
3. One of these encircled areas has a large tree on it that looks in some danger of falling down. Should I do something about it? It would probably cost several thousand dollars to remove.
4. The lot is ~700 square feet in size. A lot nearby with a tiny old workshop on it recently sold for over $300 per square foot. However, I realize that few people are willing to spend anything close to that to extend their yards a few feet. If I do try to sell it to the neighbors, can I divide the lot easily? I suppose I would need a surveyor.
5. What else could I do with it? The path goes from an apartment building's parking lot (open to the street) to a house on another odd lot in the middle of the block. Most of the way has high walls on both sides. A row of wind generators? Tomatoes on trellises? Model airport runway? Linear accelerator?
6. Does anyone remember the name of an art installation which was a glass-walled, fully-equipped multistory habitat for several people, about 4 feet wide, and was to be inhabited by six subjects for visitors to gawk at, as in an ant farm? Perhaps I could buy it...
The thin part is about four feet wide, while the fat part is immediately behind the house. It's about 140 feet long. Apparently this may have been a public path, possibly used by people who collected waste from outhouses (or so I've heard) that was eventually sold by the city and bought by my grandmother. I'd like to find a use for this lot, and so I have a few questions. Here is an overhead view.
1. There is an inconveniently placed utility pole right in the middle of it, which makes it difficult to use as a path, since it's only four feet wide. My uncle called the company some years ago, and they were not eager to move it (obviously). Do they have the right to have it there? Can I call them up and ask them to produce some paperwork showing their right to use it? Can I get them to pay rent? Would or should they have a lien or something on file at city hall?
2. One part of the lot has been encircled by a neighbor's fence, while others, I believe, have even been encroached upon by sheds. I think this makes it vulnerable to claims of adverse possession (squatter's rights). I don't know the neighbors. What's the best way to approach this? Can I do something simple to mitigate this risk?
3. One of these encircled areas has a large tree on it that looks in some danger of falling down. Should I do something about it? It would probably cost several thousand dollars to remove.
4. The lot is ~700 square feet in size. A lot nearby with a tiny old workshop on it recently sold for over $300 per square foot. However, I realize that few people are willing to spend anything close to that to extend their yards a few feet. If I do try to sell it to the neighbors, can I divide the lot easily? I suppose I would need a surveyor.
5. What else could I do with it? The path goes from an apartment building's parking lot (open to the street) to a house on another odd lot in the middle of the block. Most of the way has high walls on both sides. A row of wind generators? Tomatoes on trellises? Model airport runway? Linear accelerator?
6. Does anyone remember the name of an art installation which was a glass-walled, fully-equipped multistory habitat for several people, about 4 feet wide, and was to be inhabited by six subjects for visitors to gawk at, as in an ant farm? Perhaps I could buy it...
Sorry, just noticed the link in the intro.
Good luck.
:)
posted by Static Vagabond at 2:03 AM on March 18, 2008
Good luck.
:)
posted by Static Vagabond at 2:03 AM on March 18, 2008
Are you talking about lot 010, highlighted in red (pink) and running between lots 040 and 010B?
I ask because 010B is also a strangely-shaped lot, and it's not obvious at first glance that 010 is a lot.
posted by syzygy at 3:30 AM on March 18, 2008
I ask because 010B is also a strangely-shaped lot, and it's not obvious at first glance that 010 is a lot.
posted by syzygy at 3:30 AM on March 18, 2008
So, I'm also a little confused but I think you mean that your grandmother's house is on 005 while the lot in question is 110, right?
1. Yes, plenty of utilities are on private property. You can certainly call them up and see what their entitlement is but my guess is that they are in the right. You need a lawyer.
2. You need a lawyer.
3. Yes, you should do something about that. Have an arborist check the tree out. You need a lawyer.
4. Not easy to subdivide. You need both a surveyor and a lawyer.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 3:44 AM on March 18, 2008
1. Yes, plenty of utilities are on private property. You can certainly call them up and see what their entitlement is but my guess is that they are in the right. You need a lawyer.
2. You need a lawyer.
3. Yes, you should do something about that. Have an arborist check the tree out. You need a lawyer.
4. Not easy to subdivide. You need both a surveyor and a lawyer.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 3:44 AM on March 18, 2008
Response by poster: That's right: 010. 010B is the other odd-shaped lot that I mention , which has a house on it.
posted by alexei at 3:45 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by alexei at 3:45 AM on March 18, 2008
What are the exact dimensions of the fat part?
posted by creasy boy at 3:53 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by creasy boy at 3:53 AM on March 18, 2008
A very small (and narrow) miniature golf course? A shallow pool with water plants and a fountain? Fruit and herb garden?
posted by iviken at 4:05 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by iviken at 4:05 AM on March 18, 2008
I ask because the most obvious way to make money out of it is housing. I haven't been to SF for a while but from what I understand of the market, people need housing badly and would gladly take a quirky, funny-shaped house if it's cheap. The fat part looks to me to be about 8 x 35 feet or 2.5 x 10 meters. My girlfriend has a book here called "Compact Houses" and some of them look pretty fucking compact. Also she just told me that such a house is possible (she's an architect). The questions I have are: what is that thing in the middle of the fat part in the overhead photo, and: can you make use of the high walls you mention? And yes you'll need to contact an architect to carry out this plan.
posted by creasy boy at 4:06 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by creasy boy at 4:06 AM on March 18, 2008
Re: the pole -- The company has most likely recorded a utility easement, which a lawyer or title professional could uncover via title search. I guess you could poke through the county records yourself, but I'd talk to a lawyer.
Re: neighbors' fences and sheds -- Adverse possession could be an issue, depending on California law. I would want to know the statutory possession period, how long the neighbors' improvements have been there, whether they had any oral or written agreements with previous property owners, and whether any easements were visible on a title search. A recent survey of the property would also be useful.
But really, these are things that a local real estate attorney should be able to help you with. IANAL, but I would hire one if I were you.
posted by the littlest brussels sprout at 4:17 AM on March 18, 2008
Re: neighbors' fences and sheds -- Adverse possession could be an issue, depending on California law. I would want to know the statutory possession period, how long the neighbors' improvements have been there, whether they had any oral or written agreements with previous property owners, and whether any easements were visible on a title search. A recent survey of the property would also be useful.
But really, these are things that a local real estate attorney should be able to help you with. IANAL, but I would hire one if I were you.
posted by the littlest brussels sprout at 4:17 AM on March 18, 2008
The Layer House in Kobe looks to me to be about 9 feet wide.
posted by creasy boy at 4:17 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by creasy boy at 4:17 AM on March 18, 2008
Response by poster: The house is actually 034 (on the other side), and the lot is 010 (you misread the map) but essentially correct.
I don't know if I'll get a lawyer or not. I'm just gathering ideas.
Doing some more research, it seems that since we pay property taxes, adverse possession is unlikely, but a forced easement is not, which has more-or-less the same practical effect.
posted by alexei at 4:38 AM on March 18, 2008
I don't know if I'll get a lawyer or not. I'm just gathering ideas.
Doing some more research, it seems that since we pay property taxes, adverse possession is unlikely, but a forced easement is not, which has more-or-less the same practical effect.
posted by alexei at 4:38 AM on March 18, 2008
It's probably not worth $300 per sq.ft., since neighbors have built walls, etc., they really don't need it and nobody else would buy it. However, I would subdivide it formally, so that you can actually offer it to neighbors. Each piece would have two potential buyers, one on each side of the block, which might get you some action. Abuttors might be interested in fixing any potential encroachment problems by buying up the piece next to their lot. An auction might work.
An experienced real estate lawyer might know how this situation has been dealt with elsewhere in the city -- there are problem dozens of parcels just like this.
posted by beagle at 5:45 AM on March 18, 2008
An experienced real estate lawyer might know how this situation has been dealt with elsewhere in the city -- there are problem dozens of parcels just like this.
posted by beagle at 5:45 AM on March 18, 2008
I would second beagle - it seems to small to use for anything. Subdivide it and offer it to the adjacent neighbours. I don't know if you'd get $300 per sq. ft. but it would be better than nothing.
posted by GuyZero at 6:43 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by GuyZero at 6:43 AM on March 18, 2008
Cool story.
If you could contact a law school teacher in the area, it would make for a great case study.
Once the ownership part is on solid ground, you could contact an architecture or design school: you could end up with a lot of weird alternative ideas like a community garden, an archery training ground, an observation deck, a fish farming pool or a bowling alley.
You could also openly involve all the neighbors in the search of a solution.
And then you could make a blog, a book, a reality tv show and a film out of it.
posted by bru at 6:45 AM on March 18, 2008
If you could contact a law school teacher in the area, it would make for a great case study.
Once the ownership part is on solid ground, you could contact an architecture or design school: you could end up with a lot of weird alternative ideas like a community garden, an archery training ground, an observation deck, a fish farming pool or a bowling alley.
You could also openly involve all the neighbors in the search of a solution.
And then you could make a blog, a book, a reality tv show and a film out of it.
posted by bru at 6:45 AM on March 18, 2008
Get a lawyer now. You might have real problems doing anything with it if people have built on your lot.
posted by electroboy at 7:06 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by electroboy at 7:06 AM on March 18, 2008
Re: the pole -- The company has most likely recorded a utility easement, which a lawyer or title professional could uncover via title search. I guess you could poke through the county records yourself, but I'd talk to a lawyer.
Re: neighbors' fences and sheds -- Adverse possession could be an issue, depending on California law. I would want to know the statutory possession period, how long the neighbors' improvements have been there, whether they had any oral or written agreements with previous property owners, and whether any easements were visible on a title search. A recent survey of the property would also be useful.
This is good advice, and I second it, although IANAL. Title documents should make mention of the easement in their language, and there's more than likely a drawing somewhere that shows the limits of the easement on the lot, but that might take some tracking down. The best people to do that, as mentioned, would be a licensed surveyor or real estate lawyer.
posted by LionIndex at 8:12 AM on March 18, 2008
Re: neighbors' fences and sheds -- Adverse possession could be an issue, depending on California law. I would want to know the statutory possession period, how long the neighbors' improvements have been there, whether they had any oral or written agreements with previous property owners, and whether any easements were visible on a title search. A recent survey of the property would also be useful.
This is good advice, and I second it, although IANAL. Title documents should make mention of the easement in their language, and there's more than likely a drawing somewhere that shows the limits of the easement on the lot, but that might take some tracking down. The best people to do that, as mentioned, would be a licensed surveyor or real estate lawyer.
posted by LionIndex at 8:12 AM on March 18, 2008
How is the power company accessing the pole now? I'd be careful with this one, they might just get a bigger easement for that (who knows which lot it will affect?) if push comes to shove.
posted by IronLizard at 8:50 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by IronLizard at 8:50 AM on March 18, 2008
You need a lawyer.
That said, you should look at the property records to see if the utility has a written easement agreement for that pole's location. If they do you may as well just grit your teeth, given that you're expressing concern about a few grand to remove a tree. If they don't you can push them and see if it can be relocated, or at least get them to compensate you for the placement.
As far as the sheds and fences, yes, you potentially have an AP issue - particularly with the fence, which cannot help but qualify as "notorious" - obvious to anyone that it's an encroachment. Any idea how long it's been there? I am pretty sure California's statute period is 20 years.
Absolutely deal with the tree. It's unfortunate that it can be so expensive to deal with, however your grandmother could find herself in the hook for a lot more money if it falls and damages something. It's her tree so she's responsible for it. And being neglectful of that kind of maintenance isn't going to help any adverse possession fights that might come up.
posted by phearlez at 9:57 AM on March 18, 2008
That said, you should look at the property records to see if the utility has a written easement agreement for that pole's location. If they do you may as well just grit your teeth, given that you're expressing concern about a few grand to remove a tree. If they don't you can push them and see if it can be relocated, or at least get them to compensate you for the placement.
As far as the sheds and fences, yes, you potentially have an AP issue - particularly with the fence, which cannot help but qualify as "notorious" - obvious to anyone that it's an encroachment. Any idea how long it's been there? I am pretty sure California's statute period is 20 years.
Absolutely deal with the tree. It's unfortunate that it can be so expensive to deal with, however your grandmother could find herself in the hook for a lot more money if it falls and damages something. It's her tree so she's responsible for it. And being neglectful of that kind of maintenance isn't going to help any adverse possession fights that might come up.
posted by phearlez at 9:57 AM on March 18, 2008
You mention the trouble of selling a few square feet of it to neighbors for storage, but what about renting it to them?
posted by fogster at 10:02 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by fogster at 10:02 AM on March 18, 2008
How is the power company accessing the pole now? I'd be careful with this one, they might just get a bigger easement for that (who knows which lot it will affect?) if push comes to shove.
Are you suggesting that they don't already have an easment for that? I guess that's possible, but extremely unlikely.
posted by LionIndex at 10:05 AM on March 18, 2008
Are you suggesting that they don't already have an easment for that? I guess that's possible, but extremely unlikely.
posted by LionIndex at 10:05 AM on March 18, 2008
Maybe you could build storage units to rent to the neighbors. Check on the easement for the power pole first, if you build within the easement the power company might tear down any structures to access the pole.
Generally speaking, subdividing is expensive -- and what if only a closer in neighbor wants to buy, and no one else does? You won't be able to access the rest of the lot.
If you are going to do anything other than gardening on it, you might need a lawyer. If your goal is to build a structure for people to live in, check with the city to see if it's even zoned for that.
posted by yohko at 10:34 AM on March 18, 2008
Generally speaking, subdividing is expensive -- and what if only a closer in neighbor wants to buy, and no one else does? You won't be able to access the rest of the lot.
If you are going to do anything other than gardening on it, you might need a lawyer. If your goal is to build a structure for people to live in, check with the city to see if it's even zoned for that.
posted by yohko at 10:34 AM on March 18, 2008
Green space. Public garden. Add to the beauty of the City. One of the joys of living in SF is to stumble across random gardens and green spaces...
posted by kuppajava at 11:10 AM on March 18, 2008
posted by kuppajava at 11:10 AM on March 18, 2008
No you can't build on it as you'll never meet setback requirements. It was certainly sold as a nonbuildable lot.
A knowledgeable Realtor in your area can give you most of the correct answers for free. Just walk into a reputable real estate office with the photos you've shown us and you'll get some good info, in return for goodwill in the future should grandma or you decide to sell. At least this is a free start towards correct answers.
Talking with a Realtor will be like asking MeFi, but with more accurate answers. Then you can decide how much lawyering you need.
posted by lothar at 12:28 PM on March 18, 2008
A knowledgeable Realtor in your area can give you most of the correct answers for free. Just walk into a reputable real estate office with the photos you've shown us and you'll get some good info, in return for goodwill in the future should grandma or you decide to sell. At least this is a free start towards correct answers.
Talking with a Realtor will be like asking MeFi, but with more accurate answers. Then you can decide how much lawyering you need.
posted by lothar at 12:28 PM on March 18, 2008
No you can't build on it as you'll never meet setback requirements. It was certainly sold as a nonbuildable lot.
Not necessarily--there are provisions in my local code for zero-lot-line (i.e. built right on the property line) buildings of certain types and sizes, such as toolsheds and garges. Or sometimes there's no setback at all.
posted by LionIndex at 3:26 PM on March 18, 2008
Not necessarily--there are provisions in my local code for zero-lot-line (i.e. built right on the property line) buildings of certain types and sizes, such as toolsheds and garges. Or sometimes there's no setback at all.
posted by LionIndex at 3:26 PM on March 18, 2008
6. No, I don't remember that, but this artist bought up a bunch of slivers of property like yours in New York, and made a project out of it. So, maybe you can sell it to an artist of some sort?
posted by gueneverey at 7:39 PM on March 18, 2008
posted by gueneverey at 7:39 PM on March 18, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
Most the issues of issues with plots hidden in amongst others are to do with planning permission- if you're looking to build a solid structure.
Take the detailed plans to an architect, you'd need to get one involved at some stage anyway, if you go the building route, and see what they mention is practical and work from there. I doubt it would cost much to get an answer to: "is it possible to build something permanent and habitable on this plot?".
If rent is high and property is in high demand in that area, perhaps a very small living pod can be built, creative use of sky-lights or some-such. Or just park a trailer on it.
Would be nice to know the exact plot your talking about.
posted by Static Vagabond at 1:57 AM on March 18, 2008