Leaky roof
February 19, 2008 8:09 AM Subscribe
Our roof is leaking and the super doesn't seem to care.
I've seen similar questions posted here before, but they don't quite address all my concerns.
A little background: We live in a duplex in Brooklyn, NY. We’re on the very top floor. The living room is directly under the roof of the building. There’s been a stain on the ceiling ever since we moved in about 10 years ago, but now the stain is spreading. Finally, the last time there was a big downpour, rain started to drip through. We told our super, and his response was, “Let’s see what it does next time it rains.” So the next time it rained the roof leaked again. Still he won’t take action. I don’t think he’s going to do anything until the ceiling caves in.
What are my recourses here? Should I write a letter to the landlord? I don’t want to be on bad terms with the super, since we have no intention of moving. If the ceiling does indeed cave and my furniture is ruined, who is responsible for the damage to my belongings? I’ve tried to move as much stuff as possible away from the leak, but there’s just not enough room (and yes, I’ll be looking into renter’s insurance today).
Also, the spare room, which is below the second floor of our apartment, has a very nasty leak. Pieces of the ceiling have been falling on the floor. A good portion of the ceiling is covered with mold. Apparently it’s caused by water from the shower right above it. The showerhead is placed in such a way that it’s virtually impossible to keep water off the floor. It’s a tile floor – is this normal? I’ve never had this happen in any other apartment. The super took a look at it and implied that it was our fault. Again, he won’t fix it. We won’t even use the upstairs shower now for fear the tub will cave in. I don’t doubt that eventually it will. If it does, will we be responsible for the damages?
Sorry for the length of this post. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I've seen similar questions posted here before, but they don't quite address all my concerns.
A little background: We live in a duplex in Brooklyn, NY. We’re on the very top floor. The living room is directly under the roof of the building. There’s been a stain on the ceiling ever since we moved in about 10 years ago, but now the stain is spreading. Finally, the last time there was a big downpour, rain started to drip through. We told our super, and his response was, “Let’s see what it does next time it rains.” So the next time it rained the roof leaked again. Still he won’t take action. I don’t think he’s going to do anything until the ceiling caves in.
What are my recourses here? Should I write a letter to the landlord? I don’t want to be on bad terms with the super, since we have no intention of moving. If the ceiling does indeed cave and my furniture is ruined, who is responsible for the damage to my belongings? I’ve tried to move as much stuff as possible away from the leak, but there’s just not enough room (and yes, I’ll be looking into renter’s insurance today).
Also, the spare room, which is below the second floor of our apartment, has a very nasty leak. Pieces of the ceiling have been falling on the floor. A good portion of the ceiling is covered with mold. Apparently it’s caused by water from the shower right above it. The showerhead is placed in such a way that it’s virtually impossible to keep water off the floor. It’s a tile floor – is this normal? I’ve never had this happen in any other apartment. The super took a look at it and implied that it was our fault. Again, he won’t fix it. We won’t even use the upstairs shower now for fear the tub will cave in. I don’t doubt that eventually it will. If it does, will we be responsible for the damages?
Sorry for the length of this post. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Your landlord has a duty of repair. Also, this Q & A at the NYT includes a bit about responsibility for fixing leaks. Good luck.
posted by Happy Dave at 8:30 AM on February 19, 2008
posted by Happy Dave at 8:30 AM on February 19, 2008
You may also want to try calling the Brooklyn Mediation Center at (718) 834-6671, which is free and mediates between tenants and landlords.
posted by ND¢ at 8:32 AM on February 19, 2008
posted by ND¢ at 8:32 AM on February 19, 2008
Response by poster: Thanks so much! I wish I were better at being mean. Maybe I can pay someone to do it for me.
What is puzzling to me about this is that you'd think it would be in the landlord's best interest to have the roof fixed. I know that the landlord hires outside contractors to make major repairs, including repairs to the roof, so the super wouldn't even have to get his hands dirty.
Looking at some of the information both of you sent, it seems that I may be responsible for fixing the other leak myself (the one under the shower). Darn.
posted by Evangeline at 8:40 AM on February 19, 2008
What is puzzling to me about this is that you'd think it would be in the landlord's best interest to have the roof fixed. I know that the landlord hires outside contractors to make major repairs, including repairs to the roof, so the super wouldn't even have to get his hands dirty.
Looking at some of the information both of you sent, it seems that I may be responsible for fixing the other leak myself (the one under the shower). Darn.
posted by Evangeline at 8:40 AM on February 19, 2008
I am not licensed to practice in New York, I don't do landlord tenant law, I am not your lawyer and this is not legal advice, but I don't think that you are reading it right:
Sec. 27-2005 Duties of owner
The owner of a multiple dwelling shall keep the premises in good repair.
The owner of a multiple dwelling, in addition to the duty imposed upon such owner by subdivision a of this section, shall be responsible for compliance with the requirements of this code, except insofar as responsibility for compliance is imposed upon the tenant alone.
The owner of a one- or two-family dwelling shall keep the premises in good repair, and shall be responsible for compliance with the provisions of this code, except to the extent otherwise agreed between such owner and any tenant of such dwelling by lease or other contract in writing, or except insofar as responsibility for compliance with this code is imposed upon the tenant alone.
[back to top]
Sec. 27-2006 Duties of tenant
A tenant shall, in addition to complying with all provisions of this code and the multiple dwelling law applicable to him or her, be responsible for violations of this code to the extent that he or she has the power to prevent the occurrence of a violation. A tenant has the power to prevent the occurrence of a violation if:
It is caused by his or her own wilful act or that of a member of his or her family or household, or a guest; or
It is the result of such tenant's gross negligence, neglect or abuse, or the gross negligence, neglect or abuse of a member of his or her family, or household or a guest.
The tenant, any member of his or her family or household, or his or her guest shall, with respect to the public parts of the premises, be liable if a violation is caused by such tenant's own wilful act, gross negligence, neglect or abuse.
The fact that a tenant is or may be liable for a violation of this code or any other law or is found liable for civil or criminal penalties does not relieve the owner of his or her obligation to keep the premises, and every part thereof, in good repair.
[back to top]
Sec. 27-2007 Certain specific duties of tenants and others
In addition to other duties imposed upon him or her by this code, no tenant, or any other person, shall:
a. Remove or render inoperative any self-closing device on any door which is required by any provision of law to be self-closing, or cause or permit such door to be held open by any device;
b. Use, or cause or permit to be installed, a lowered door or screen door in addition to or in place of any required self-closing door to a public hall;
c. Place any encumbrance before or upon, or cause access to be obstructed to, any fire escape, or obstruct by a baby carriage or any encumbrance, the public halls or any required means of egress;
d. Take down, alter, destroy, or in any way deface any sign required by this code to be displayed.
e. Remove or render inoperative any shower head installed by the owner which meets the standards of subdivision P. 104.2 of section P. 104.0 of reference standard RS-16 of the appendix to chapter one of this title.
posted by ND¢ at 8:47 AM on February 19, 2008
Sec. 27-2005 Duties of owner
The owner of a multiple dwelling shall keep the premises in good repair.
The owner of a multiple dwelling, in addition to the duty imposed upon such owner by subdivision a of this section, shall be responsible for compliance with the requirements of this code, except insofar as responsibility for compliance is imposed upon the tenant alone.
The owner of a one- or two-family dwelling shall keep the premises in good repair, and shall be responsible for compliance with the provisions of this code, except to the extent otherwise agreed between such owner and any tenant of such dwelling by lease or other contract in writing, or except insofar as responsibility for compliance with this code is imposed upon the tenant alone.
[back to top]
Sec. 27-2006 Duties of tenant
A tenant shall, in addition to complying with all provisions of this code and the multiple dwelling law applicable to him or her, be responsible for violations of this code to the extent that he or she has the power to prevent the occurrence of a violation. A tenant has the power to prevent the occurrence of a violation if:
It is caused by his or her own wilful act or that of a member of his or her family or household, or a guest; or
It is the result of such tenant's gross negligence, neglect or abuse, or the gross negligence, neglect or abuse of a member of his or her family, or household or a guest.
The tenant, any member of his or her family or household, or his or her guest shall, with respect to the public parts of the premises, be liable if a violation is caused by such tenant's own wilful act, gross negligence, neglect or abuse.
The fact that a tenant is or may be liable for a violation of this code or any other law or is found liable for civil or criminal penalties does not relieve the owner of his or her obligation to keep the premises, and every part thereof, in good repair.
[back to top]
Sec. 27-2007 Certain specific duties of tenants and others
In addition to other duties imposed upon him or her by this code, no tenant, or any other person, shall:
a. Remove or render inoperative any self-closing device on any door which is required by any provision of law to be self-closing, or cause or permit such door to be held open by any device;
b. Use, or cause or permit to be installed, a lowered door or screen door in addition to or in place of any required self-closing door to a public hall;
c. Place any encumbrance before or upon, or cause access to be obstructed to, any fire escape, or obstruct by a baby carriage or any encumbrance, the public halls or any required means of egress;
d. Take down, alter, destroy, or in any way deface any sign required by this code to be displayed.
e. Remove or render inoperative any shower head installed by the owner which meets the standards of subdivision P. 104.2 of section P. 104.0 of reference standard RS-16 of the appendix to chapter one of this title.
posted by ND¢ at 8:47 AM on February 19, 2008
Response by poster: Thanks NDcents (I'm not sure what the shortcut key is for the cents character). I was thinking of this paragraph, which seems to states that damages to the property are the tenant's responsiblity if:
It is the result of such tenant's gross negligence, neglect or abuse, or the gross negligence, neglect or abuse of a member of his or her family, or household or a guest.
It think the landlord could make a case that the leak from the second floor shower (not the roof leak) is our fault, and that we should have taken measures to keep the bathroom floor dry.
Is this what you're thinking of:
The fact that a tenant is or may be liable for a violation of this code or any other law or is found liable for civil or criminal penalties does not relieve the owner of his or her obligation to keep the premises, and every part thereof, in good repair.
Even though that's true, I think we would still be responsible for reimbursing the landlord for repairs to the shower overflow.
posted by Evangeline at 9:21 AM on February 19, 2008
It is the result of such tenant's gross negligence, neglect or abuse, or the gross negligence, neglect or abuse of a member of his or her family, or household or a guest.
It think the landlord could make a case that the leak from the second floor shower (not the roof leak) is our fault, and that we should have taken measures to keep the bathroom floor dry.
Is this what you're thinking of:
The fact that a tenant is or may be liable for a violation of this code or any other law or is found liable for civil or criminal penalties does not relieve the owner of his or her obligation to keep the premises, and every part thereof, in good repair.
Even though that's true, I think we would still be responsible for reimbursing the landlord for repairs to the shower overflow.
posted by Evangeline at 9:21 AM on February 19, 2008
I don't know if "should have taken measures to keep the bathroom floor dry" will equate to "gross negligence, neglect or abuse," but, as you say, perhaps a case can be made. You should consult an attorney licensed in your state for a definitive answer.
posted by ND¢ at 10:06 AM on February 19, 2008
posted by ND¢ at 10:06 AM on February 19, 2008
Yeah, gross negligence, neglect or abuse is things like kicking holes in walls, leaving the bath running and going out or leaving rotting food lying about.
posted by Happy Dave at 10:19 AM on February 19, 2008
posted by Happy Dave at 10:19 AM on February 19, 2008
Response by poster: Does burying a corpse under the floorboards count?
posted by Evangeline at 10:29 AM on February 19, 2008
posted by Evangeline at 10:29 AM on February 19, 2008
I wish I were better at being mean. Maybe I can pay someone to do it for me.
I think this is what lawyers get paid for. It's why I've always wanted to be one.
Failing that, however, I, as a fellow Brooklyn resident, would be glad to come over to your house and be mean to your super. I'm pretty good at it, and I wouldn't ask for any of your money. :)
Additionally, if your showerhead is improperly installed and it is impossible for you to keep your bathroom floor dry, you should list that as a problem in the letter you send to your landlord. It might help you in pointing out to the landlord that the leakage problem is his/hers, rather than yours.
(For what it's worth, I lived in a building where the management company was unresponsive for years and years to maintenance requests. I finally wrote them a letter, and the next day someone showed up to inspect all the problems with the apartment and schedule repairs. I don't think landlords like the threat of litigation.)
posted by brina at 11:42 AM on February 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
I think this is what lawyers get paid for. It's why I've always wanted to be one.
Failing that, however, I, as a fellow Brooklyn resident, would be glad to come over to your house and be mean to your super. I'm pretty good at it, and I wouldn't ask for any of your money. :)
Additionally, if your showerhead is improperly installed and it is impossible for you to keep your bathroom floor dry, you should list that as a problem in the letter you send to your landlord. It might help you in pointing out to the landlord that the leakage problem is his/hers, rather than yours.
(For what it's worth, I lived in a building where the management company was unresponsive for years and years to maintenance requests. I finally wrote them a letter, and the next day someone showed up to inspect all the problems with the apartment and schedule repairs. I don't think landlords like the threat of litigation.)
posted by brina at 11:42 AM on February 19, 2008 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: In lieu of payment I could bake you a pie.
I'm just going to have to suck it up.
posted by Evangeline at 11:50 AM on February 19, 2008
I'm just going to have to suck it up.
posted by Evangeline at 11:50 AM on February 19, 2008
A friend of mine is in the exact same situation in Brooklyn. Is your landlord Mr. Perl?
posted by dendrite at 12:49 PM on February 19, 2008
posted by dendrite at 12:49 PM on February 19, 2008
Same situation here in Toronto. Bloody hell. Our landlord wants us to barge into our neighbours place upstairs the next time it leaks to find the source. I'm sure that would go over well.
posted by purephase at 2:48 PM on February 19, 2008
posted by purephase at 2:48 PM on February 19, 2008
Wow, sounds like my situation too...right down to the "duplex in Brooklyn". My best friend writes letters for this kind of thing all the time and dictated to me what to write. I have a copy that I could email you (contact me at kenzilisa at gmail). I haven't sent the letter yet as I wanted to keep things a little light if I could; no response from the super so I finally contacted the owner and the next day the roofers were there. They worked on the roof for 2 days and it's still not fixed so I need to call again, but I am saving that letter if things dont' get done soon. The super has NO incentive to get things fixed because he doesn't own the building and doesn't care about his investment being ruined.
I also have some notes from my call to 311 asking about mold abatement so if you email me for a copy of the letter remind me to give the info about mold abatement (this is a really serious issue, so don't ignore it, and including it in your letter will give it extra weight...no landlord wants to have to deal with mold abatement).
posted by kenzi23 at 3:14 PM on February 19, 2008
I also have some notes from my call to 311 asking about mold abatement so if you email me for a copy of the letter remind me to give the info about mold abatement (this is a really serious issue, so don't ignore it, and including it in your letter will give it extra weight...no landlord wants to have to deal with mold abatement).
posted by kenzi23 at 3:14 PM on February 19, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
If your apartment has defects and needs repairs, we generally advise renters to follow the following steps, IN ORDER:
Contact your super about the needed repair.
If your superintendent or management company is not being responsive, and the repair has not been made in a timely manner, write a letter to the owner of the building detailing the problem and asking for the repair to be made by a certain date. If the super is simply lax about making repairs, this type of "prompt" to the owner may elicit action. Send the letter by certified mail (read your lease and be sure to follow the requirements for "notices" set forth in the lease) and keep a copy in your files.
If the letter does not bring a response, try to contact the owner in person or by phone. Let him know that resolving the problem is important and that if it is not resolved you will have to file a complaint with the authorities.
If the owner still does not respond you can do any (or a combination of) the following:
Ask the NYC Department of Housing Preservation & Development (HPD) for a housing inspection. HPD can order the landlord to make repairs and/or fine the landlord. A word of warning, however -- this process may take time unless the problem is urgent such as a loss of heat or hot water. Such problems receive a higher priority from HPD.
Make the needed repair yourself (or hire someone to do it) and deduct the cost from your rent. Be CERTAIN that the expense was necessary to correct a violation of the City's Housing Maintenance Code. Also, be careful to get bids for the work and to document both the needed repair and the costs. Bear in mind that this may result in litigation for non-payment of rent. You will need to justify your withholding. Before you take this approach it is wise to consult legal counsel.
If your apartment is rent-stabilized, file a complaint for a decrease in service with the NYS Division of Housing and Community Renewal, the agency which administers the rent laws. More information is available in this fact sheet.
In the case of maintenance problems that are severe, you should consider filing an HP Action in Housing Court. For more information on housing court in New York City, see our two resources on housing court here and here.
Personally, it seems to me like you are being walked all over and you need to get mean. Your super is acting unreasonably.
posted by ND¢ at 8:29 AM on February 19, 2008