Is it illegal for a business to close earlier than the closing time posted on their door?

December 31, 2007 8:31 PM

Is it illegal for a business to close earlier than the closing time posted on their door?

When I was a waitress in California (12 years ago), I remember one of my managers saying that it was illegal to lock the doors even slightly before the closing time posted on the doors. If we were closing at 10:00 p.m. and a customer wanted to come in at 9:59, we had to let them in and serve them.

In all of my years living in California, I can't recall a single instance when I found a business (such as stores, restaurants, banks, etc.) closed or closing before their posted closing time.

I live in upstate New York now, and this happens to me ALL THE TIME.

- Dunkin' Donuts: Found closed, dark, and deserted a half-hour before closing time.
- Dunkin' Donuts another time: Found the store closed an hour early, forcing me to get back in my car and go through the drive-through (which was not scheduled to close for another 2 hours), only to be told that they had no donuts left at all. I asked why and the girl told me that her manager had her throw them away an hour ago. (?!) All she could sell me was coffee.
- Pizza Hut: Tried to come in 45 minutes before closing, told they were closing the dining room early and we could only order to go.
- Price Chopper (tonight): Normally 24-hours, they were closing at 10:00 p.m. for New Year's Eve. We went in at 9:40 and were told somewhat rudely upon entry that they were closing in 10 minutes. As we were leaving 5 minutes later (9:45), they were no longer allowing customers in, stopping them at the door and telling them the store was closed.

These are just a few instances. There have been other stores, and other restaurants ("real" restaurants, not just drive-throughs and crappy pizza). In all cases, they have the business hours posted on (or near) the door. (Nothing where there were no hours posted, or where they said "Closing: Late" or anything like that.)

This has become a huge pet-peeve for me. (My husband has heard more than a few rants on the topic!)

Bad customer service aside, is it legal for businesses to close before their posted closing time? Are they any regulations regarding this sort of thing? Is there anyone I can complain to and get them in trouble with?

posted by thatgirl to law & government (44 comments total)

As far as I know, no such law exists. The only laws in regards to closing times that I am aware of are laws that compel establishments to close by a certain time, but not at their advertised time.
posted by thedanimal at 8:32 PM on December 31, 2007

In the places I've worked, its been a matter of strict company policy not to close early. I never heard any mention of a law though. I guess I would recommend complaining to their parent corporation. Good luck.
posted by andythebean at 8:38 PM on December 31, 2007

no, not illegal, just poor customer relations...
posted by HuronBob at 8:42 PM on December 31, 2007

I have this happen to me all the time in Ithaca. I've never actually not been allowed to come in but subtly discouraged from lingering, made to wolf down dinner in double quick time and had the bill presented to me at closing time and basically told to pay immediately. I was a little shocked at the rudeness but figured everyone was tired and needed to get home.
posted by peacheater at 8:59 PM on December 31, 2007

Here's the thing. A restaurant might need 10 people to run, even if there's just one customer. If it's a very slow night, it is against the company's financial interests to stay open for the last half hour, especially if all of its staff want to go home.

Sure, you are inconvenienced, but how miserable are those ten people going to be if suddenly you need to be served an entire meal at 11:55 (assuming a midnight close)?

no, not illegal, just poor customer relations...

Here, the goodwill of one customer is lost for the sake of the goodwill of ten employees. I'd say that's a good investment. And generally, the store/restaurant's best customers are also probably going to be the ones who come in during normal hours, not near the boundary time periods.

I think this might just be something you have to adjust to. Find places that are open later and patronize them. This may or may not send a message to those businesses, but there is certainly nothing you can really do to rectify this situation.

I'll tell you one thing: I certainly wouldn't want to order food in an establishment where they knew I had personally forced them to stay open.
posted by Deathalicious at 9:05 PM on December 31, 2007 [7 favorites]

IANAL. A person somehow harmed by the early closing might be able to sue the store to recover damages to compensate them for that harm.

The most likely sources of any compulsion to work to strict hours will be (a) contractual - the mall the store is in, the company that manages the franchising operations; (b) local governmental - the shire, county, city council, or whatever will require stores to close at specific times, may require them to open and close at specific times, may require them to seek permission to deviate from these times, and may require them to post opening times on their doors. Generally councils are more concerned with forcing closing than forcing opening; stores open late at night tend to attract 'undesirables', or so the theory goes.

However, I think common sense dictates that stores close when, for reasons of personal emergency, the owner and/or employees have to go home. Even if store owners were forbidden to close early just because there are no customers, it would be hard to prove they didn't have an exonerating personal emergency of some kind.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 9:09 PM on December 31, 2007

A lifetime of restaurant work tells me that the rule of thumb seems to be "we'll close whenever we please" and unless corporate is breathing down our necks to stay open until the second hand ticks over sometimes it's hard to resist the temptation. You just worked a 60-hour week, you have a new baby at home you'd like to see, your 1-hour operating cost wildly exceeds your projected revenue for 10 PM on a Tuesday night...a cook has threatened to knife the dishwasher and half your wait staff is in the parking lot smoking a joint... you can see how it might happen.

It's bad customer service and it probably hurts most places in the long run, but it happens all the time. I don't know about where you are, but here a prominently-displayed sign that says "We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to Anyone at any Time" is pretty much carte blanche to open and close as you see fit.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 9:38 PM on December 31, 2007 [3 favorites]

I was manager at a diner type restaurant, and our rule of thumb was never to close even a minute early. We didn't want to alienate a customer. For example, Joe Blow stops in at 9:58 for coffee and a pie. If we are closed early, next time at 9 pm or even 8pm, he'll go to the 24 hour place since he knows they will be open. No sense going out of his way to our place that might or might not be open.
posted by thilmony at 9:56 PM on December 31, 2007 [1 favorite]

We used to close early all the time.

What would probably be illegal is locking the doors if it prevented people from leaving. There may also be issues if you served alcohol and the alcohol inspector couldn't get in, or so forth. So what your manager said may have referred more literally, to locking the doors with people still inside.

(FWIW, our doors permitted you to exit whether they were locked or not, so it was policy to lock the doors 15 minutes before closing 'for safety,' although it was really more to enforce that we were closed, I think.)

We didn't have the sign BitterOldPunk mentions, but it was an unwritten rule. The business, although open to the public, remains private property. It's the right of management to restrict who can and cannot come in -- case in point, we have a number of people who have been banned. (Obvious restrictions apply: if we did something discriminatory, like barring black people from coming in, we'd surely run into some legal problems. But it's entirely our right to restrict people for cause.)

IANAL, so I can't categorically state that it isn't illegal, but I'd be very surprised if it were.

As others have said, the fact that it's legal doesn't mean you shouldn't complain to the stores.
posted by fogster at 9:59 PM on December 31, 2007 [1 favorite]

It's their store. They can decide. They aren't even forced to post opening times, why would these times be enforced? Consuming is not an inalienable right.
posted by pompomtom at 10:54 PM on December 31, 2007 [4 favorites]

Once upon a time, I worked at a video store. Our closing time was 9 p.m., and I locked the front door at 8:55 p.m. (unlocking it only to let people out). I didn't care who I alienated, and neither did my boss. We got burned too many times by people who scooted in at the last minute, saying "I know exactly what I want, I'll only be a second" who then wandered around the store for a half hour while we fumed. We needed to have all the customers out of the store by closing time so we could do cleanup, inventory, balancing the cash register, etc... A couple of inconvenienced customers weren't more important than our need to get out of there and get home to our families. (Besides, the cranky customers almost invariably learned their lesson and showed up earlier next time).
posted by amyms at 12:15 AM on January 1, 2008

No law that I've ever heard of, in all my years (admittedly, a while ago) of working retail. However, locking customers in would definitely violate the fire code in most places and thus be illegal. So maybe that's why you were being told not to lock the doors?

At one place that I worked (photo finishing) we used to shut down early on a fairly regular basis when the cost of keeping the machines running vastly exceeded the amount of business we were going to do during the remainder of the day. Sometimes we'd keep the storefront open (so people could pick up or drop off) and just turn off the "One Hour Photo" light, other times we'd just close the store. Most of the time it came down to whether anybody wanted to stay there and earn the rest of their day's pay or not.

It's kind of a toss-up for management: do you keep the place open and basically burn money, or do you shut it down, cut your losses, and risk alienating customers? I can imagine the answer depends a lot on the business environment (do you have any competition?), your customers, and the nature of the business (are there a lot of variable costs involved in staying open for an additional hour). It doesn't surprise me that stores in various locations have come up with different responses to the same questions. A store in an economically depressed area might have a very different solution than a store in a white-hot economy where you fight for every customer.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:30 AM on January 1, 2008

I can't find the cite offhand, but I do recall that several years ago there was an article in our local newspaper (in one of those consumer advocate columns) about this topic...according to the article, Michigan state law required businesses to abide by their hours if posted. So that if they had their business hours stenciled on the door, or listed on a sign, they were required by law to stay open during those posted hours. I will do some searching and see if I can find the actual statute.
posted by Oriole Adams at 1:07 AM on January 1, 2008

One of the supermarkets nearby has a sign in the window saying "Open 24 Hours!"
What they mean is "Open 24 Hours, if the checkout girl comes in, 'cause the night stocking guys can't operate a register."
posted by Marky at 1:24 AM on January 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

So far as I'm aware, it's not illegal.

Just vote with your wallet. Go somewhere else. There's not really a lot you can do to stop it happening. Dunkin Donut's HQ isn't going to care about one customer being put out slightly.
posted by Solomon at 1:51 AM on January 1, 2008

Certainly not illegal. Can you imagine enforcing such a law?

Think back to your waitressing days. Did you ever work the close shift? Functionally, a restaurant is "closed" about half an hour before the time on the sign. I was once worked at a Pizza Hut, and during the last hour open, serving customers was the last thing on our mind.

We were mopping and sweeping. We were counting down drawers. We were preparing supplies for the next day. I worked the kitchen, and from eleven to midnight I was taking apart the make-table, packing away all but the bare minimum of ingredients. Everything got wiped down, and the small collection of pans I left out stayed on a sheet of cellophane so my nice, clean table wouldn't be soiled should I have to fill another order. The to-go-only thing at the end of the night was a pretty common practice.

I've seen some version of this at every restaurant I've worked. The last hour that they'll let you in the door isn't really an hour you want to be ordering food. The staff is run down and ready to go home. They're looking down the barrel of a long cleanup, and the arrival of a customer is seen as a minor disaster. Every minute spent not cleaning in the run-up to looking the doors is another minute we'd have to spend wiping up after hours. And yeah, if the place was quiet a few minutes ahead of time, we'd lock up early. The cost of paying a bunch of staff to stay late would often outweigh the potential profit of a late-arriving customer, after all.

So, the way to avoid this problem for the rest of your life is to subtract one hour from the close time of any business you wish to visit, and plan around that time as the last moment you can expect quality service. Show up when you're actually welcome, not when the staff is forced to welcome you.
posted by EatTheWeak at 3:46 AM on January 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

hmm when i worked in a mall in cali i remember one of my store managers telling me how the mall management would get angry if we didn't open or close at the designated mall times. she said that they would threaten to fine us if we didn't abide by their times. yet i know that we didn't always follow the posted hours so i'm not sure if the store ever actually got fined. anyway, although i don't know the law, i'm guessing this could be a cali thing because come to think of it, i've rarely encountered the business that closed before their posted times too (5 or 10 minutes perhaps, but never 30 to 45 minutes early!).
posted by tastycracker at 4:02 AM on January 1, 2008

tastycracker, shop owners in malls and markets are usually governed by a body corporate and must abide by set opening hours. They also have a lot less autonomy in general than stores operating from street addresses.

thatgirl, all your examples refer to franchises, and in general those stores are obviously more regulated than privately owned shops (that have complete flexibility regarding their opening hours, regardless of what's painted on the door). Even so, while no owner or manager wants to alienate their customers, there are many reasons why they may choose to close early on a given day, from private emergencies to practical necessities such as cleaning, re-stocking, and preparing for the next day's trading. Food businesses are particularly susceptible to this.

- Price Chopper (tonight): Normally 24-hours, they were closing at 10:00 p.m. for New Year's Eve. We went in at 9:40 and were told somewhat rudely upon entry that they were closing in 10 minutes. As we were leaving 5 minutes later (9:45), they were no longer allowing customers in, stopping them at the door and telling them the store was closed.

There is nothing unusual about this story. Many, many businesses post an earlier-than-usual closing time on New Years Eve, and then end up closing a little earlier than that. This practise is so widespread, I would take it as a given. This is because retail trading on NYE is notoriously quiet (except for liquor stores, natch) and every single staff member in the store is impatient to leave and conduct their own lives, including the owners and managers. Management often takes a gamble and decides that the morale boost they create by sending their staff home 15 minutes early once or twice a year (xmas eve is the other date this often occurs) is worth a teeny bit of lost custom.
posted by hot soup girl at 5:00 AM on January 1, 2008

I'm curious about where you're living. I'm upstate too, and I almost expect things to close early. Small businesses around here are on the knife-edge of profitability, if they aren't expecting customers, they'll close up to save on payroll. The restaurant where my husband works will close the kitchen early when the weather is bad, or if he knows half the town is at a hockey game.

If a holiday is coming up, I make sure to look for early closing signs at the bank, the grocery, the hardware store early in the week so I know what it expect.

I think you need to relax about this. Think about how nice it is for the employees to get a break to go home early, and put some phone #'s in your cell so you can call ahead to make sure they're open before venturing out.
posted by saffry at 5:47 AM on January 1, 2008

You are used to a different culture, where store hours are inflexible. In this new culture, hours are flexible, and the adjustment is driving you nuts. This is probably bigger than your ability to effect meaningful change. Program the numbers in your phone, and call ahead. I know many of the cashiers at my grocery store, and at closing I can often get away with saying "I have to have milk for tomorrow's coffee, and I promise to pay cash" with a smile. Then I run to the dairy case.

Change your rant from This is illegal and must be corrected! to These cuhrazy upstaters just don't understand my Californian ways. and learn to laugh.
posted by theora55 at 6:57 AM on January 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I've always thought that closing early on New Years Eve is bad business. Few parties start early enough so that serving dinner is practical. Everyone is on their own for their evening meal. It's a lost business opportunity to turn people away.

p.s. Your late-night donut rant is a strange one. You want to eat something that's been sitting out for 15 hours? Dunkin's business model focuses on coffee beverages and "premium" breakfast sandwiches. They haven't cared about their donuts in 25 years. Don't be surprised if the ones that you get at 7 in the morning are already 12 hours old.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 7:30 AM on January 1, 2008

When exactly did the convenience of the workers become way more important than providing good customer service? If the restaurant is supposed to be open until a certain time, then it should be a given that clean-up takes place AFTER the restaurant closes. If you want the workers to go home earlier, then close earlier but the posted hours are the posted hours, dang it.
posted by tamitang at 9:08 AM on January 1, 2008

"Bad customer service aside, is it legal for businesses to close before their posted closing time? "

Imagine for a second it wasn't:
Have a problem with the grill? Sorry, can't close.
Your cashier calls in sick? Sorry, can't close.
You have two employees but one breaks their wrist and the other takes them to the hospital? Sorry, can't close.
Your supplier screws up and you don't have enough buns to service the entire long weekend? Sorry, can't close.
Civil unrest in the area? Sorry, can't close.
A madman is on the loose killing gas station attendents? Sorry, can't close.
Game seven of the Stanley cup starts at closing time? Sorry can't close early.

There have got to be hundreds of reasons a business might want to close early. Heck it is so hard to retain employees in some situations not closing 15 minutes early to let them watch the cup might mean everyone just quits secure in the knowledge they can get a job the next day. Twice I've seen the entire grave yard shift of an establishment quit over a grevience.
posted by Mitheral at 9:20 AM on January 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

As a customer, I don't think it's bad business in general. If they're being rude about it sure, but at a certain point it doesn't seem practical to endlessly cater to the customer and as a freaking human being (who's waited tables before), I have no problem with the staff wanting to get out a bit earlier if it's a dead night. It those instances, I tip big and grab something to go, as long as they aren't rude.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:35 AM on January 1, 2008

IAAL, IANYL, TINLA ...

It is highly unlikely that any country or state would have a law compelling a company to be open for the hours that they advertise ... and to punish transgerssion with, for example, a fine.

However your earlier manager probably confused "illegal" with "not legally permitted", in that the franchise agreement (or lease agreement in the case of a mall) for the store probably required that it was open for certain specified hours, and not being open for those hours would constitute a breach of that agreement for which the franchisee (or lessee) would be penalised under the contract.

And, yes, it is annoyingly bad customer service!
posted by jannw at 9:35 AM on January 1, 2008

The Dunkin' Donuts where I live (Binghamton) closes the cafe early every night. I think it's because they are in a bad neighborhood.
posted by ryanissuper at 1:28 PM on January 1, 2008

Everyone has been looking at it from the point of view of a restaurant owner. What if we imagine it is a dry cleaners or an engagement ring store. You get there an hour before their posting closing time, but they are closed. Now you don't have a suit to interview with tomorrow, or a ring to get engaged with tonight, even though you have the ticket stub saying you will pick it up before closing on this day. Or what if it is a doctor's office/clinic?

I wonder how much of a contract the sign creates. I wonder if you could show damages in the above cases. It's an interesting question.
posted by jeffamaphone at 2:29 PM on January 1, 2008

I've worked restaurants and retail, and the customers who really keep the place in business, i.e. the regulars, rarely are the same customers pitching a fit over why we had to close at 9:55 when the sign says 10:00.

In reality, those easily agitated customers are same ones who will try to use expired coupons, return something without a receipt, or let a line of other customers accumulate behind them while they argue some point of service with a cashier who is powerless to help them.

For lack of a better word, let's just call such people "assholes."

It's true indeed that, in a society full of franchises that inherit dogma from a corporate office far away, dogma such as 'the customer is always right' and 'do whatever you have to so that they come back next time' are pervasive. But that's only because the corporate bosses can't be there to evaluate things on a case-by-case basis, and they know that many people interpreting the rules are going to be stupid (it's kind of like sentencing guidelines for judges, in that sense).

However, sometimes it's just not worth it. The resources that go into making one asshole happy are often ten times the resource that go into making one regular happy...and the regular is going to spend a thousand times more money anyway. And assholes have less word-of-mouth power than they think.
posted by bingo at 3:00 PM on January 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

@Deathalicious: A restaurant might need 10 people to run, even if there's just one customer.

When I was a server, on a dead night, we would get down to 4 or sometimes even 3 people: A server (often me -- or in a place with a bar, it might be the bartender and no other server), a cook, the manager, and maybe a dishwasher (but not if it was REALLY deserted). You don't need 10 employees if there's just one customer left.

Sure, you are inconvenienced, but how miserable are those ten people going to be if suddenly you need to be served an entire meal at 11:55 (assuming a midnight close)?

Fairly miserable. I've been there. But here's the thing: If they're THAT miserable, they need to be looking for a new job; they're in the wrong industry. When it was me, I pouted on the inside, but I did my job and I did it well, and I never took it out on the customer.

@thilmony: Exactly!

@EatTheWeak: Think back to your waitressing days. Did you ever work the close shift? [stuff about breakdown, cleanup, etc.]

Yes. That's part of the job! Working the closing shift sucked sometimes (although it almost invariably was the most profitable shift, tip-wise), but you just accept it. You know going into it that you're not leaving until AFTER closing time. If you get a table at the last minute, you think, "Damn it!" but then you focus on getting that one last tip, and you get on with it. Every job has its downsides. If you can't handle them, you get a different job!

@jannw: Yes, now that I think about it, I think I can recall him saying something about, "If the regional manager ever stops by 5 minutes before closing..." yada yada yada. He must have been talking about getting in trouble with corporate only.

@bingo: I've worked restaurants and retail, and the customers who really keep the place in business, i.e. the regulars, rarely are the same customers pitching a fit over why we had to close at 9:55 when the sign says 10:00.

Yeah. Maybe that's because after they found you closed early, they never came back and instead became regulars at a a more reliable place of business with better service.

In reality, those easily agitated customers are same ones who will try to use expired coupons, return something without a receipt, or let a line of other customers accumulate behind them while they argue some point of service with a cashier who is powerless to help them.

I've never done anything of those things. (Okay, I've returned things to Target without a receipt once or twice, but they just look it up by credit card number; it's not a problematic transaction.) I'm a night owl, a friendly customer, a good tipper, and someone who tends to find a few businesses I like and frequent them often (i.e. a regular). I'm a good customer, but I do expect good service. That doesn't make me an asshole. If you think that a customer who expects good service is an asshole, or a customer who dares to want to shop or eat at night is an asshole, or a customer who expects you to do what your sign says you will is an asshole, then you really ought to stay far away from any industry, business or job related to customer service.

(Just for the record, I don't go into a restaurant just before closing time and order a meal. If I need a meal and the requisite time to eat it, I'll find somewhere that closes later. Even if I'm just after something really quick like a slice of pie, I won't go somewhere for sit-down service unless there's at least half an hour until closing time, preferably more. But I do expect to be able to grab a cup of coffee or a slice of pie to go at 10 minutes til close; or from a store, I expect to be able to run in shortly before closing time to grab a gallon of milk, some cold medicine, etc. Basically, I rarely if ever try to go in somewhere if I don't expect to be OUT by closing time. That is not unreasonable.)

@Saucy Intruder: You want to eat something that's been sitting out for 15 hours?

Well, that's not the goal. The goal is to satisfy a sweet tooth. A donut bought near the end of the evening is better than no donut at all (if I'm really in the mood for a donut, that is). It's not THAT bad.
posted by thatgirl at 9:09 PM on January 1, 2008

Absolutely not. It is not illegal to close early and to contradict your own posted hourly signs. I seriously doubt posted hours are not seem as a contract and I'd be curious to see any successful torts over that kind of thing.

In the end this kind of law would dictate a work for the state/slave state condition, which is prohibited by the constitution and all state constitutions and is considered a basic human right. For instance, I run a one man shop. I get sick with the flu. I cant open on Monday and Tuesday. If this is illegal I go to prison. This is slavery, more or less. Or I find that fridays are too slow to for me to make a profit so I stop opening on fridays. I neglect to change the sign. I get arrested. This is also slavery. The state is forcing me to do labor against my will and on top of it is forcing me to take a loss.

No, there is no authority you can go to to make me slave. If you dont like it then go to one of my competitors or move out of the region. Lastly, its not uncommon for restaurants to stop taking new customers 30-60 minutes before closing. I imagine this kind of business culture is new to you.
posted by damn dirty ape at 2:13 AM on January 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

So, then, what was the point of this question? To best-answer everyone who agreed with you?

You're actually kinda onto something though. I have gotten employment outside of customer service. Know why? The customers.
posted by EatTheWeak at 3:52 AM on January 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Yeah. Maybe that's because after they found you closed early, they never came back and instead became regulars at a a more reliable place of business with better service.

Indeed, maybe that's why. And that's what you should do too. Problem solved.

However, that apparently isn't good enough for you, since you are asking how to legally force the establishment to adhere to its posted hours of operation, whether they care about your business or not. It's almost as if you're looking for a way to force the management to recognize that they should care about your business. It's almost as if you feel indignant and hurt, like you were denied something that was yours by right.

Well, it just isn't so. No doubt the proprietors are aware that they may be losing business by closing early, but they've decided they were okay with that, and above I've tried to give you a realistic, first-hand insight into why that may be.

If you think their reasoning should have been different, then you can always appeal to them directly. Then, depending on their priorities and how they perceive you, they may attempt to appease you with a fifty-cent coupon or some such thing. But it won't change much in the greater scheme of things, and the government isn't going to help you.
posted by bingo at 6:29 AM on January 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Apologies if this would be more appropriate for Metatalk, but as EatThe Weak suggests, this post reeks of "This thing sucks, amirite?" as opposed to a genuine, legitimate search for information. The question asks if it is illegal for a business to stray from its posted operating hours. The answer to that is simply "No". Yet two out of the three answers marked as "Best" DON'T EVEN ANSWER THE QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED and simply agree with thatgirl that (paraphrasing) "Yeah, it sucks when businesses do that".
posted by The Gooch at 8:21 AM on January 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'd see this as an issue of truth in advertising. Let's say in the morning, you pass a business and notice its signs saying it'll be open until 8 PM that day (or you see/hear a TV/newspaper/radio ad with the same message). If that advertisement makes you decide to swing by after work, only to find them closed at 7 PM, wasn't the ad false advertising? Is a small sign (hours posted on the door) equivalent to a big sign (three-foot-high plywood letters spelling out "open late tonight")?
posted by booksandlibretti at 3:03 PM on January 3, 2008

If that advertisement makes you decide to swing by after work, only to find them closed at 7 PM, wasn't the ad false advertising?

Maybe, but I'm not sure any real damages can be claimed because the most you are out is some wasted time. You've lost nothing financially.
posted by The Gooch at 3:54 PM on January 3, 2008

Not necessarily, if you're talking about whether or not you can buy a donut at 7:45 PM, but of course you can come up with scenarios in which your losses would be significant. Like other people in the thread, let's say you were going to pick up the engagement ring that was the centerpiece of some elaborate plan. Or your only tux from the dry-cleaners' before an important professional event. Or the cruise tickets that would get you to a vacation spot where you already paid for hotel reservations. You chose that specific travel agency, laundry place, jeweler, because their ads said they were open late -- but then, when you needed them to be, they weren't.

I don't know if you could actually do anything, and it almost certainly wouldn't be worthwhile if you could; I'm just inclined to approach it from the truth-in-advertising angle, since the (hypothetical) business posted signs/ads that said one thing, but then did another thing.
posted by booksandlibretti at 6:13 PM on January 3, 2008

My apologies if it was naughty of me to "best answer" some of the people who made points that are, to my mind, sensible. I will take my five lashes.

However, it was a genuine question. I was genuinely curious and seeking an answer, not high fives. No, not planning to actually sue them or anything even if it were illegal, and not expecting the government to help me, although I wouldn't be opposed to filing a complaint with the BBB or something along those lines. I was just curious if they were doing something they weren't supposed be be doing, as opposed to just something I don't like them doing.

I didn't post to have people agree with me, but I have to admit was pretty surprised by how many people take a "screw the customers" point of view, and that I do find that attitude strange and offputting.

@bingo: And [frequenting other businesses is] what you should do too. Problem solved.

Actually, in this case, that's not always a viable solution, because the problem is too widespread here (not to mention that most business around here close too early in the first place). The only "solution" I can see is to move back to So Cal (or as I call it, civilization), but that's not an option right now.

bingo: It's almost as if you feel indignant and hurt, like you were denied something that was yours by right.

Uh, no, I feel indignant (not hurt) because I was denied something that I wanted and that they specifically led me to believe I would be able to have. Say I listed a TV on Craigslist that you wanted to buy from me, and I said, "Okay, it's yours, just swing by my house at 8 tonight and I'll have it for you", and then when you got to my house the lights were off and no one was home. You'd be peeved, no doubt about it. It's not yours by right, and I haven't done anything illegal, but you'd be indignant, and rightly so! I really don't know why are you're acting like I'm an asshole because this annoys me.
posted by thatgirl at 8:17 PM on January 3, 2008

Actually, in this case, that's not always a viable solution, because the problem is too widespread here...The only "solution" I can see is to move back to So Cal (or as I call it, civilization), but that's not an option right now.

Actually, I think that's the whole issue right there. It's not that there is a 'widespread' 'problem' in upstate New York, and the attitude toward customer service in So Cal is not, for most people, a standard to strive for. You are simply experiencing a cultural difference.

In upstate New York (and in many other parts of the country), posted closing times implicitly mean "unless the proprietor feels like closing earlier." It's not a coincidence that so many businesses around you share this 'problem.' They just have different cultural assumptions than you do. Similarly, if you spent some time in Holland, you'd find that teenage clerks feel free to chat on the phone with their friends while customers wait patiently to pay. For someone used to a different idea of customer service, it can be jarring, but it's not a 'problem' because the vast majority of customers accept it.

I lived in So Cal for about five years. It's the nexus of customer-service entitlement. The service industry (perhaps because of so many aspiring performers) is huge and competitive. The middle class is bossy and ostentatious. The differences between rich and poor, cool and uncool, server and served are defined more clearly and deliberately than anywhere else I've ever been, including Paris and Mexico City. The kind of people who take that lifestyle as a standard for what customer service should be are exactly the kind of people I was talking about in my answers above. Thank god I no longer live in that awful place.

Of course, I have no monopoly on the standard for service either. I culturally identify with Kansas City and Seattle, two places where your question would have, de facto, been seen as pretty ridiculous, by the customers as well as the business owners.

Say I listed a TV on Craigslist that you wanted to buy from me, and I said, "Okay, it's yours, just swing by my house at 8 tonight and I'll have it for you", and then when you got to my house the lights were off and no one was home. You'd be peeved, no doubt about it.

Honestly...and I'm not just saying this to be difficult...I would never buy a TV on Craigslist, and the type of situation you describe is exactly why. And if I did, and the whole affair turned out to be kosher, I would be pleasantly surprised.
posted by bingo at 6:38 PM on January 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I really don't know why are you're acting like I'm an asshole because this annoys me.

It's about the proportionality.

You were asking who you could "complain to and get them in trouble with", because you're out a donut.
posted by pompomtom at 4:00 PM on January 6, 2008

@bingo: For someone used to a different idea of customer service, it can be jarring, but it's not a 'problem' because the vast majority of customers accept it.

So I guess slavery wasn't a 'problem' because the vast majority of people accepted it. (Fill in the blank with any other issue which used to be -- or currently is -- widely accepted as fine and normal in some circles.) No, I'm NOT implying that closing early is equal in offensiveness to slavery. Just pointing out that taking your criteria for 'problem' status to its logical conclusion doesn't work. Just because something is widely accepted doesn't mean it's a not a problem (whether we're talking about a minor annoyance, or a true evil).

We're obviously never going to agree, and that's fine, but this argument is just plain bad.

@pompomtom: Come now, try not to take everything so seriously. It's not like I want to get Dunkin' Freakin' Donuts shut down, it was just a trivial question of curiosity. (And that aside, it's not about being out a donut, it's about bad/unreliable customer service. I suspect you're being intentionally obtuse.)
posted by thatgirl at 12:46 PM on January 7, 2008

I think this is the sort of issue that separates people who have worked in retail management, and in particular have owned or run their own businesses, and those who have mainly worked in offices. I currently know a chap who owns his own shop here in London. Occasionally, he will close fifteen minutes on a Sunday if it's a quiet day and there's somewhere he'd rather be. I think this is an utterly civilised approach (not that I benefit from it myself; I don't work Sundays) and would much rather live in a world where, on a sunny afternoon, a shopkeeper has the right to a "GONE FISHING" sign on his door and enjoy a moment of well-earned freedom. You know how people in offices sometimes leave a little early on a Friday afternoon? It's exactly like that. (Maybe a phone call or two gets goes straight to the answering machine, but it's hardly the end of the world; your doughnut, in this case, was a missed phone call.)

There are many things in life that are not 100% as described, and while this may occasionally disappoint, it's just the way things are. Businesses are really complicated. Some things, like signs that state a shop's opening hours, should be considered a guideline rather than a promise.

I'm sorry this is not the answer you wanted to hear, but there is no tribunal you can go to to submit a formal complaint about your missed doughnut.
posted by hot soup girl at 1:39 PM on January 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

I'm sorry this is not the answer you wanted to hear, but there is no tribunal you can go to to submit a formal complaint about your missed doughnut.

Wow, that is such a crying shame, because that's totally what this was about. I was just so painfully upset about a donut that I came here looking for people to not only help me create a high-fiving club for Assholes Who Think Businesses Should Stick To Their Posted Hours Except In Case Of Emergency Because It's Part Of Good Customer Service And Customer Service Is Important (AWTBSSTTPHEICOEBIPOGCSACSII), but also because I was so desperately hoping that MeFites would tell me that I could sue the evil donut-withholding bastards, where the case would get media attention and a trial-by-jury which would result in the offending businesses being not just reprimanded, but put out of business, bankrupted, and all owners and employees being sentenced to death by firing squad.

I'm so upset that it didn't turn out that way, not to mention dumbfounded because I had no idea how unfair life can be and how really complicated the world is, that I'm going to need TWO donuts now. Where's a Krispy Kreme when you need one?


(For those who don't speak sarcasm: People, I don't care whether it's illegal or not. I didn't want to hear that it was or any other particular answer, I was just curious. It may be my own fault for not communicating my motivations clearly, or maybe it's all because I talked about complaining (I was imagining something like the BBB, not a court of law, and I'd never bother doing it anyway), or maybe it was just a stupid question, but whatever the reason, a few of you have gotten the wrong end of the stick and apparently figure that gives you reason to be condescending and in some cases judgmental. I fail to see why that's necessary.)
posted by thatgirl at 5:22 PM on January 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

People, I don't care whether it's illegal or not.

Your question began with the phrase "Is it illegal..."

This gave others license to address whether or not the practice in question was legal. The implication that you cared, at least enough to start the discussion, is rather hard to avoid. The fact that this question then attracted people who took the issue of legality seriously should also then not be too surprising.
posted by bingo at 10:22 PM on January 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

Had to think about this one for a while:

Just because something is widely accepted doesn't mean it's a not a problem (whether we're talking about a minor annoyance, or a true evil).

What's key here is the difference between a problem for an individual, and a problem for the society. If it's a problem for one but not the other, then the society is not motivated to solve it, hence the lack of laws. The implication that there should be a law generally indicates that the problem in question is society's problem. An explanation of why that isn't the case would then be in order.
posted by bingo at 7:35 PM on January 9, 2008