Help With Old Handwriting

November 30, 2007 8:19 AM

Help with old / smudged handwriting on the back of a Civil War photo.

Some folks at work and myself are trying to identify a Civil War soldier. Anyone want to take a stab at this guy's last name? Image here.

Pretty sure that last name starts with an M, first name Asa. Other writing is 4th NC Volunteers 1862. I've been through the rosters of the 4th and the 14th (which the first org of the 4th became) and could find no Asa. Maybe some new sets of eyes will help. This is the highest resolution of the image we have.

Picture of the guy himself here, wouldn't want to meet him on a battlefield.

Thanks!

posted by marxchivist to grab bag (50 comments total)

Looks like the last name could be McGregor or something similar.
posted by Atreides at 8:29 AM on November 30, 2007

I've been through the rosters of the 4th and the 14th (which the first org of the 4th became) and could find no Asa.

That would be, no Asa whose last name started with an M.
posted by marxchivist at 8:31 AM on November 30, 2007

It looks like the last three letters of the last name are g-e-r, and there's a letter toward the front-middle that looks like a fancily-written "z"... Maybe Metzinger?
posted by amyms at 8:32 AM on November 30, 2007

Could the M be his middle initial? It looks like there might be a dot after it.
posted by cerebus19 at 8:41 AM on November 30, 2007

That would be, no Asa whose last name started with an M.

A list of the surnames given for any Asas that are listed there would definitely be helpful.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:42 AM on November 30, 2007

Second the M as a middle initial, as it's rather distant from the rest of the characters. Suggest searching the rosters for Asa M. and any last name.
posted by exphysicist345 at 8:47 AM on November 30, 2007

I like the idea of the M. being a middle initial. In that case, it looks like the first letter of the last name might be a Y. Asa M. Younger or something like that? I'd also consider the possibility that the first three letters are initials, rather than Asa. He could be A.S.A. Mc-something or A.E.A. Mc-something.
posted by craichead at 8:48 AM on November 30, 2007

Just a shot in the dark, but if the M is a middle initial, could the last name be Jasper?
posted by Sara Anne at 8:50 AM on November 30, 2007

vote for M being the middle initial, last name starting with J, Y or Z (only capital cursive letters that go below the baseline) or McSomething. even though the ending is pretty clearly 'er,' it might be worth noting that the e there isn't the same as the e in 'volunteer'
posted by soma lkzx at 8:52 AM on November 30, 2007

No Asa Z's, Asa Y's or Asa Jaspers in the rosters. We're liking the idea of M as the middle initial too. Thanks for the input so far.
posted by marxchivist at 9:00 AM on November 30, 2007

There's something loopy after the M, though; I'm not entirely convinced it's not a Mc-name.

Can you do a search for "Asa *er" in your lists?
posted by fogster at 9:08 AM on November 30, 2007

The handwriting after the capital "M" looks very different from the handwriting on the rest of the piece. I wonder if it originally said "Asa M." and then someone else wrote in the rest of the name?
posted by amyms at 9:12 AM on November 30, 2007

Even if he's not listed on any roster, the more I look at it, the more "McGreger" (-er, not -or, though, which is uncommon--possibly a mistake) seems like the answer. Compare the loop after the M in the last name to the "C" in "N.C." -- they look a lot alike to me.
posted by fogster at 9:15 AM on November 30, 2007

Just throwing in another option - it looks like Yaeger or Jaeger to me.

Have you shown anyone at a historical society? I've had luck with them helping do deciper old handwriting!
posted by ugf at 9:16 AM on November 30, 2007

Are there any A Mc-somethings? What about A Mc-Gs? I think the three-initial followed by a last name configuration was most common among Catholics, which would be an argument in favor of Mc. Also, and it might just be the way the thing is smudged, but the second letter in the first grouping looks kind of like the "e" he used in "volunteer." I initially read it as AEA, rather than ASA.
posted by craichead at 9:17 AM on November 30, 2007

Oh, NC volunteers. I take it back about being Catholic. That doesn't seem too likely.
posted by craichead at 9:19 AM on November 30, 2007

Just had another wild, probably mistaken, thought: The first A in what we've all been reading as "Asa" looks (to me at least) noticeably different from the second one in form. Given the flourish on the V in "Volunteers," I wonder if that isn't a C, not an A, and instead of saying "Asa" it actually says "CSA," as in "Confederate States of America." As craichead noted, the three letters do all look uppercase.

If that's true (and I know it's a shot in the dark) then maybe his first initial is M.
posted by cerebus19 at 9:19 AM on November 30, 2007

Can you do a search for "Asa *er" in your lists?

I wish, the lists are not computerized but in published books.

Have you shown anyone at a historical society? I've had luck with them helping do deciper old handwriting!
posted by ugf at 12:16 PM

We are the historical society! :-/

You folks have given us some new possibilities, thanks. The person who showed it to me (and a bunch of other people) said "Can you read this? First name Asa, last name starts with M?" When someone tells you that it can be hard to look at it as anything but. I kind of wish I hadn't given out that info at the beginning and let you guys look at it cold. Nevertheless, you've come up with some good alternatives to check.
posted by marxchivist at 9:27 AM on November 30, 2007

If it's at all helpful, I found this list of NC Civil War soldiers in my searches. It's not the easiest thing to search, but you never know. I wasn't able to find our man in a few browses, but I don't have the time at the moment to do a more comprehensive search.
posted by cerebus19 at 9:29 AM on November 30, 2007

Is there any chance that, if indeed it is "Asa" written there, that it could be the surname?
posted by dead_ at 9:34 AM on November 30, 2007

I also find it unlikely that the first name is Asa. The writing is using capital letters for other things, why wouldn't it use a capital A for the first name? At least it doesn't look like a capital A to me, more like a capital Q or C.

Also, do you know any military designations that it could be an abbreviation for? You often get stuff like "Sgt" or "Adj" and a last name, although I don't know what it would stand for.
posted by gemmy at 9:42 AM on November 30, 2007

The image is difficult to read because of compression artifacts in the JPG.
posted by rhizome at 9:53 AM on November 30, 2007

"Asa" sounds unlikely as a first name. For starters, it's written in cursive uppercase, which seems to indicate it's a title or other abbreviation.

Adjusting the contrast level of the red channel in Photoshop, the rest appears to say something like "M. Jasper" or "M. Joseph". The letter after the M appears to be either a capital cursive J or a Y.

(In fact, assuming that the writer got a bit lazy at the end of the word, it looks a lot like "Joseph" to me. The letter underneath the dark smudge looks pretty clearly like an "s").
posted by neckro23 at 9:56 AM on November 30, 2007

i just posted this thread here, they know enough about soldiers etc. to help narrow down who he may nor may not be

i can't say i'm totally convinced he's civil war, and if I'd definitely agree with a CSA unit...

it's an awesome picture
posted by Salvatorparadise at 10:08 AM on November 30, 2007

he certainly could be someone who volunteered with the 4th, but judging by his garb and firearm, he may not have been official, and may not have shown up on a roster
posted by Salvatorparadise at 10:13 AM on November 30, 2007

Going off cerebus19s link I can save others some trouble with searching one aspect. I checked the whole Mc section for names ending in, ger, gir, gen and gin. The only names I got up were on this page.
Starting at McGugan there is a series of names including McGuigin. There was also a McRogers, but I don't see the first letter after a possible "Mc" being an R, it is quite obviously looping under.
posted by Iteki at 10:26 AM on November 30, 2007

Also, sorry to multipost, but I searched for ASA in the same "Mc" section, and found only (of suitable length): McIntosh, Asa S. and McMillen, Asa. So that's covered at that link too.
posted by Iteki at 10:35 AM on November 30, 2007

Is it possible you have a electronic copy of the image that doesn't have compression artifacts from the JPEG format? Reducing the noise from that source could help in enhancing the image.
posted by demiurge at 10:39 AM on November 30, 2007

through cerebus19 link you can find an Archibald McGregor who served in the 4th NC
posted by barrakuda at 10:58 AM on November 30, 2007

The image is difficult to read because of compression artifacts in the JPG.

Seconding this. I see a bunch of stuff in this image that looks like common image processing / compression artifacts. A clean high-res uncompressed image, especially captured with the right lighting, might make this much easier.
posted by madmethods at 11:29 AM on November 30, 2007

McGregor is my interpretation, which I think I've made at least a little more clear.
posted by Kickstart70 at 12:07 PM on November 30, 2007

I'm not convinced, but then I'm also completely stumped.

I have found a slightly better version of the JPG--the original ambrotype was apparently purchased on eBay Thailand and there's an ever-so-slightly better version there. I've enlarged it and enhanced it slightly in Photoshop:

Click here

Mezinger? MCGregor? Let the guessing continue...
posted by zueod at 12:51 PM on November 30, 2007

Wow zueod, you guys amaze me. Sorry about the compressed image, it's what he have, sent to us by somebody that wants some help.

No luck finding a likely first name starts with A McGregor in the published NC rosters or Broadfoot's CSA roster. Of course neither of those books are perfect. This guy looks pretty irregular, he could be from some oddball 4th regiment partisan ranger or home guard unit.

No Mozingos either, that's actually not an unusual name 'round here.
posted by marxchivist at 1:04 PM on November 30, 2007

i'm with gemmy & neckro23 about the strangeness of capitalizing ASA as a first name- it makes me think those are initials, not a name.
posted by twistofrhyme at 1:23 PM on November 30, 2007

I don't think the capitalization in the first name necessarily means anything. If you look at the word 'volunteer' you'll notice the it contains a capital 'L'.
posted by Sara Anne at 1:52 PM on November 30, 2007

In fact looking at the word 'volunteer' leads me to doubt that the name ends in the letter 'R' after all, as that 'R' also looks capitalized. Perhaps the name ends with a 'ps'?
posted by Sara Anne at 1:54 PM on November 30, 2007

Just to muddy the waters even more, is there any possibility that the thing we're reading as an M is in fact a W?
posted by craichead at 2:34 PM on November 30, 2007

The second-to-last letter in the last name looks more like a lowercase R to me, especially after playing with it in Picasa to enhance the contrast.
posted by katemonster at 3:04 PM on November 30, 2007

"Asa" sounds unlikely as a first name.

It was actually a fairly common first name back then. There are tons of Asas in my family, and I've found many more in geneological searches.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:31 PM on November 30, 2007

Just came across this site, which is particular to the 14th NC Infantry (ex-4th Volunteers). I haven't finished looking through it, yet, but have found a James W. McGregor in Company C, but he was the 3rd Lieutenant and so probably would've dressed better. Also in Company C was a Private Malcom McGregor.
posted by cerebus19 at 3:41 PM on November 30, 2007

Well, I got excited because I found an Asa W Gray, but he's of the 1st Union NC Volunteers. That definitely looks like a 4 to me, and even "W Gray" is a stretch. Link, if you want.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:29 PM on November 30, 2007

OK, I have one more theory about the mysterious three letters. I've played around with contrast and such, and the first letter looks a lot like a capital G. The second letter does, as has been pointed out, look an awful lot like the Es in "volunteer," and the third could easily be an O wih a period next to it, making it "Geo." which would of course be an abbreviation of "George."
posted by cerebus19 at 8:18 PM on November 30, 2007

The second-to-last letter in the last name looks more like a lowercase R to me

The more I look at it, the more I'm agreeing. However, this seems to be a pretty nonsensical combination: the letter before it looks pretty clearly to be a q/g/p, and the letter after it is almost certainly an r.

I still think it's ASA, or least an "S". Pay attention to bottom half of the S-character, which loops to the left, versus looping to the right as the E's in volunteer do.

I don't think we can assume that what is written on the back of this card is 100% accurate: the last name may be misspelled (a "-grr" name almost certainly would be), maybe they just had the wrong name, or maybe he wasn't a formal member.

Diabolical plan to mess with great-grandchildren: Find a photo of a contemporary soldier, mis-label the back with the wrong name, misspell it, and then smudge it.
posted by fogster at 9:11 AM on December 1, 2007

post from the ebay antique board i put this on:

Hi,

For what it's worth, here's my theory. The writing on the back of the photograph definitely looks like "Asa McGreger".

A quick search of the 4th N.C. Vols./14th N.C. Inf., came up with a John W. McGregor and a Malcolm McGregor, both in Co. C. John McGregor was from Anson County, N.C.

The 1860 Anson County North Carolina Census lists a Duncan McGregor, age 50, as head of household. In his family are three older sons: John, age 18, Archibala, age 17, and Malcolm, age 16. John & Malcom are definitely the two listed in the 14th NC. Archibal more than likely served or attempted to at some point during the war. I think he is probably this man.

I'm a little unclear on his name, it looks like Archibel, which I've never heard before, and is spelled several different ways throughout the censuses. Regardless, it's a variation of Archibald. The writing on the back of the photo could have been written years after the war and someone may not have remembered his name quite right and wrote it down wrong or Asa may have been what everyone called him and he just used his proper name for official documents.

While there's no definite proof he is your man, I think this is probably the most likely senario. You can try Anson County historical or genealogical societies/websites and see if anyone has anymore info on this family. A Google book, "Remembering North Carolina's Confederates" by Michael C. Hardy, lists John W. McGregor as being buried in East View Cemetery in Anson County. You may try looking there for "Asa". A. McGregor lived at least until 1880 and had a family so you may be able to contact some of his decendents as well to verify the info (although one has to wonder why they gave up the pic in the first place).

Last, try here: http://history-sites.net/mb/cw/nccwmb/
There are three other men named Archibald McGregor in North Carolina Confederate units and you need to rule out none of them are the Anson County Arhibel, even though it's highly unlikely. The people on the N.C. in the Civil War Message Board are more likely to know exactly which counties their regiments/companies were organized and can help you rule them out. I could probably do it but it would take me a while and they probably know exactly where to find the info. It also seems like there should be more info on John McGregor since he was an officer and possibly more info on his family.

Also, there are often cases of men serving in which we now have no documentation. The most popular estimate is around 20% were never documented or the documentation has been lost. So, you may not find any documentation at all and may not ever be able to prove he served.

I'm no expert but the photo looks a lot like most of the other photographs I've seen of the time period and as someone already said, just because he isn't wearing a Confederate uniform doesn't mean he didn't serve.

Let me know if you find out more info and positively id the photo or if you need more help/info.

-morninglory-
posted by Salvatorparadise at 9:26 AM on December 1, 2007

have you tried using filters to remove the area around the name?

I'd be happy to help you with that as I have a small lab where I do document examination & I have many tools that can help "see" the writing.

I'd do it for the Historical society probono.

Let me know.....

I'll look at the better photograph & let you know
posted by LindaFDE at 9:28 AM on December 1, 2007

If you don't mind Linda, that would be great. We get 800 to 1000 inquiries here a month and usually don't undertake something this involved and have spent quite a lot of time on it already.

The response here has been phenomenal. Thanks everyone.
posted by marxchivist at 11:17 AM on December 1, 2007

I have many tools that can help "see" the writing.

I noticed you have a blog on your site. I, for one, would be very interested in reading about the processes you use in examining this!
posted by fogster at 11:27 AM on December 1, 2007

The second-to-last letter in the last name looks more like a lowercase R to me

The more I look at it, the more I'm agreeing. However, this seems to be a pretty nonsensical combination: the letter before it looks pretty clearly to be a q/g/p, and the letter after it is almost certainly an r.

I was thinking about the shape of the letters, and one other thing I could come up with that somewhat fit the shape of the last three was something ending in -yer. I think the second to last letter seems more like an "e" than anything- even the same unusual "e" as used in "volunteer", with the top bar somewhat squashed/faded.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:06 PM on December 1, 2007

Marxchist

Email me at the email address on my site--I can not find your email address, & Not sure if they are allowed on posts...

I have some questions for you. As a geneologist as a hobby--this "case" intrigues me.

Linda
posted by LindaFDE at 2:28 PM on December 1, 2007

Just a few suggestions on this search.

One thing to keep in mind is that Asa may have been short for Asahel. In fact, Asa may have been a middle name or even a nickname. I don't think it's "CSA" as someone else suggested and there are no ASA acronyms from the Civil War that I'm aware of.

I did a cursory search through the records on Ancestry.com (Military and Census) for Asa but didn't find anything that appears to be a good match.

You might try posting it to "Orphan Heirlooms" to see if Megan can help you: http://www.honoringourancestors.com/apply_orphan.html

Good luck with your search.

DJ
posted by RedDiamond11 at 8:38 AM on July 22, 2008