I'm fighting at least one traffic ticket. Best way to proceed?
November 25, 2007 11:11 AM Subscribe
I'm fighting at least one traffic ticket. Best way to proceed? I got three (three!) at a single stop recently. These are enough to get my driver's license renewal denied, not to mention the insurance surcharges, so I'm hoping to beat as many as I can. Other than the classic 'cops not showing up for court,' what can I hope for?
My offenses were:
1) Speeding. Fair enough, I totally was. But they never stated to me how they measured this, which I'm told can be important. Any other law loopholes here would be appreciated.
2) Outdated inspection. Also true. But how do they prove this one if called on it? The cop's partner distracted me and I don't know if they, say, took pictures of the sticker, but... do they do that? What's likely to happen if I challenge this point?
3) Failure to pull over when flashed-and-sirened at. This is the one I object to, because at the time I noticed them, I was on a stretch of road that had no shoulder on either side. Confusingly, both officers repeatedly denied this was the case, saying that there was plenty of shoulder and it made me look suspicious that I stubbornly refused to pull over onto it. I was on my way to work and had almost arrived, so I continued on my way to it and used their parking lot, but that was two lights and a turn later. (I did, in fact, pass up another parking lot that I could have used, but didn't because I thought a shoulder might appear. Neither officer mentioned this parking lot, though-- it was all about the imaginary shoulder-- so I think I can safely omit this fact when/if I tell my story.) So my case will be: I pulled over as soon as (I reasonably believed) I could, and did not attempt to escape or whatever as the citation implies. How should I make this case?
Also: attitude. Not having had many police encounters in my life to date, I perhaps unwisely tried to clarify several points with them, and assure them of my harmlessness/good faith/charming naivete. This, I'm pretty sure, was taken as 'hostility' or somesuch. Standard(?) police annoyingness followed. I was asked persistently where I worked, which I didn't see the reason for and declined to say, but invited them (!) to search the car for the drugs and weapons that my behavior (see 3) forced them to assume I was hiding. They did not take me up on this offer, only asked me where I worked in a louder and louder voice until it eventually worked. I was asked if I was aware that "in other places" I could have been forcibly pulled from my car, thrown to the concrete and handcuffed without question after My Behavior (3), and was asked to appreciate the self-control and kindness of the [city] police force in their treatment. Requests for explanation of things I was accused of earned me openly contemptuous, slow, single-noun sentences, as if to a toddler. And so on.
As soon as the stop was over I went into work, asked for some immediate offtime and wrote down everything I could possibly remember, so that where their case might say "Subject was hostile," mine would have "Annoyance probably showed on my face when asked by Officer X, 'See how easy that was?'". It covered 6 pages. What use can I put this to in court?
I have to go set up a court date by the 29th, and am in Texas, for whatever that's worth. Thanks, all.
My offenses were:
1) Speeding. Fair enough, I totally was. But they never stated to me how they measured this, which I'm told can be important. Any other law loopholes here would be appreciated.
2) Outdated inspection. Also true. But how do they prove this one if called on it? The cop's partner distracted me and I don't know if they, say, took pictures of the sticker, but... do they do that? What's likely to happen if I challenge this point?
3) Failure to pull over when flashed-and-sirened at. This is the one I object to, because at the time I noticed them, I was on a stretch of road that had no shoulder on either side. Confusingly, both officers repeatedly denied this was the case, saying that there was plenty of shoulder and it made me look suspicious that I stubbornly refused to pull over onto it. I was on my way to work and had almost arrived, so I continued on my way to it and used their parking lot, but that was two lights and a turn later. (I did, in fact, pass up another parking lot that I could have used, but didn't because I thought a shoulder might appear. Neither officer mentioned this parking lot, though-- it was all about the imaginary shoulder-- so I think I can safely omit this fact when/if I tell my story.) So my case will be: I pulled over as soon as (I reasonably believed) I could, and did not attempt to escape or whatever as the citation implies. How should I make this case?
Also: attitude. Not having had many police encounters in my life to date, I perhaps unwisely tried to clarify several points with them, and assure them of my harmlessness/good faith/charming naivete. This, I'm pretty sure, was taken as 'hostility' or somesuch. Standard(?) police annoyingness followed. I was asked persistently where I worked, which I didn't see the reason for and declined to say, but invited them (!) to search the car for the drugs and weapons that my behavior (see 3) forced them to assume I was hiding. They did not take me up on this offer, only asked me where I worked in a louder and louder voice until it eventually worked. I was asked if I was aware that "in other places" I could have been forcibly pulled from my car, thrown to the concrete and handcuffed without question after My Behavior (3), and was asked to appreciate the self-control and kindness of the [city] police force in their treatment. Requests for explanation of things I was accused of earned me openly contemptuous, slow, single-noun sentences, as if to a toddler. And so on.
As soon as the stop was over I went into work, asked for some immediate offtime and wrote down everything I could possibly remember, so that where their case might say "Subject was hostile," mine would have "Annoyance probably showed on my face when asked by Officer X, 'See how easy that was?'". It covered 6 pages. What use can I put this to in court?
I have to go set up a court date by the 29th, and am in Texas, for whatever that's worth. Thanks, all.
Regarding #2: I think I don't understand the base assumption here. Do you think that the state does not have records of what cars are registered for what dates?
And even if they don't, I don't really understand how this one would be different than many other traffic offenses anyway - the only evidence, essentially, is the cop's say-so. And that's enough (I mean for a conviction, not for justice).
Regarding #3: Perhaps actually measure the available shoulder on the road(s) in question. Perhaps videotape a drive down it. Present these both as evidence.
I am not a lawyer.
posted by Flunkie at 11:26 AM on November 25, 2007
And even if they don't, I don't really understand how this one would be different than many other traffic offenses anyway - the only evidence, essentially, is the cop's say-so. And that's enough (I mean for a conviction, not for justice).
Regarding #3: Perhaps actually measure the available shoulder on the road(s) in question. Perhaps videotape a drive down it. Present these both as evidence.
I am not a lawyer.
posted by Flunkie at 11:26 AM on November 25, 2007
Sounds like you're only fighting the third charge. Take pictures of the area. Also, look up the vehicle code for the violation and see what it says about where you can/should pull over and what the criteria for violation is.
posted by rhizome at 11:27 AM on November 25, 2007
posted by rhizome at 11:27 AM on November 25, 2007
Don't contradict the officers unless you have incontrovertible proof they are incorrect. You don't understand why the officers don't see it your way? Neither will the judge, and the judge will assume you are lying.
posted by mzurer at 11:28 AM on November 25, 2007
posted by mzurer at 11:28 AM on November 25, 2007
Your #2 might be a "correctable offense," meaning if you fix it, you don't have to pay more than a "re-stocking fee" or something and it disappears. I had something similar in California. And if it is, they probably didn't have time to mention it because they were too busy asserting their authority.
No secret that cops lie. Ask a Public Defender sometime. But you'll never get a jury to believe that. (Not that you'll have a jury.) The judge might be wise or not, but I wouldn't count on it.
I'm no fan of police authority, but my (similarly-minded) friend in high school repeatedly got let off from tickets during the traffic stops. He said his secret was thinking to temporarily persuading himself "This police officer protects us from dangerous criminals."
posted by salvia at 11:32 AM on November 25, 2007
No secret that cops lie. Ask a Public Defender sometime. But you'll never get a jury to believe that. (Not that you'll have a jury.) The judge might be wise or not, but I wouldn't count on it.
I'm no fan of police authority, but my (similarly-minded) friend in high school repeatedly got let off from tickets during the traffic stops. He said his secret was thinking to temporarily persuading himself "This police officer protects us from dangerous criminals."
posted by salvia at 11:32 AM on November 25, 2007
Response by poster: (...Okay, so the 'title' doesn't actually appear on the front page. Got it.)
Flunkie, I'm sure they do. But I've only ever seen them look at the sticker; that seems to be enough either way.
The only problem about visual evidence of #3 is that it would display the first parking lot I passed up. Buuuut... I guess there's no way around that...
posted by jinjo at 11:34 AM on November 25, 2007
Flunkie, I'm sure they do. But I've only ever seen them look at the sticker; that seems to be enough either way.
The only problem about visual evidence of #3 is that it would display the first parking lot I passed up. Buuuut... I guess there's no way around that...
posted by jinjo at 11:34 AM on November 25, 2007
So you were speeding, you were driving with an outdated registration, and you did avoid pulling over when flashed and sirened at?
I think that you should get a lawyer and listen to his advice, which I'm guessing will be to plea bargain. The stuff you're saying you hope will get you out of these things you did sounds like sheer fantasy.
posted by Flunkie at 11:40 AM on November 25, 2007 [7 favorites]
I think that you should get a lawyer and listen to his advice, which I'm guessing will be to plea bargain. The stuff you're saying you hope will get you out of these things you did sounds like sheer fantasy.
posted by Flunkie at 11:40 AM on November 25, 2007 [7 favorites]
Get a lawyer. Period. That is all you need to know.
posted by konolia at 11:42 AM on November 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by konolia at 11:42 AM on November 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
And tell your lawyer the actual facts. Don't try to spin to him like you seemingly are to us.
posted by Flunkie at 11:42 AM on November 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Flunkie at 11:42 AM on November 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'm with Flunkie on this one. You were speeding, driving without a valid inspection, and you made the cops chase you. You then committed a crime that's not on the books - you sassed cops and gave them a hard time. They don't care where you work; they wanted to find out whether you were going to be respectful or whether you were going to give them a hard time. They discovered that you were a person who gives cops a hard time. Cops can beat you every time you get into this kind of contest with them.
You're in a bad spot and you're about to lose your driver's license. If you care about justice and don't care what happens to you, and you feel like going in for Round 4 in your boxing match with these cops, go up in front of the judge and tell him all about how the cops standing over there on the other side of the room are bald-faced liars, only out to get you, a law-abiding citizen. That'll go over like a ton of bricks and you'll lose your driver's license. The cops will be standing over there laughing at you.
If you want to keep your license, get an attorney and do exactly what your attorney tells you, including keeping your mouth shut about how unfairly you think you've been treated. And in the future don't hassle cops. Cops can and will beat you every time you try to get in this kind of contest with them.
posted by ikkyu2 at 11:47 AM on November 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
You're in a bad spot and you're about to lose your driver's license. If you care about justice and don't care what happens to you, and you feel like going in for Round 4 in your boxing match with these cops, go up in front of the judge and tell him all about how the cops standing over there on the other side of the room are bald-faced liars, only out to get you, a law-abiding citizen. That'll go over like a ton of bricks and you'll lose your driver's license. The cops will be standing over there laughing at you.
If you want to keep your license, get an attorney and do exactly what your attorney tells you, including keeping your mouth shut about how unfairly you think you've been treated. And in the future don't hassle cops. Cops can and will beat you every time you try to get in this kind of contest with them.
posted by ikkyu2 at 11:47 AM on November 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
Regarding #2, in New York, at least, if you can show you got your car inspected within a week of an expired inspection ticket, or something like that, they drop the ticket. The theory being that it is easy to forget such things.
Texas, being more "law and order," might not have that, but it behooves you to find that out and get the car inspected. Getting another ticket for expired inspection after getting the first one won't endear you to the judge or the DMV whereas the judge might throw the ticket out even if Texas doesn't have the New York deal if you get it inspected right away.
Regarding #3, yeah videotape your route, but frankly you might have some 'splaining to do regarding why you didn't pull into the first parking lot. The officers might bring that up *even if* they never mentioned it with you.
posted by xetere at 11:49 AM on November 25, 2007
Texas, being more "law and order," might not have that, but it behooves you to find that out and get the car inspected. Getting another ticket for expired inspection after getting the first one won't endear you to the judge or the DMV whereas the judge might throw the ticket out even if Texas doesn't have the New York deal if you get it inspected right away.
Regarding #3, yeah videotape your route, but frankly you might have some 'splaining to do regarding why you didn't pull into the first parking lot. The officers might bring that up *even if* they never mentioned it with you.
posted by xetere at 11:49 AM on November 25, 2007
I worked for the traffic division of the Los Angeles Superior Court for awhile in college, and defendants did not defeat the ticket by default when the cop didn't show up. The D.A. still prosecuted and many defendants (i.e. in your situation: you) lost their cases.
Fighting a ticket is very hard, at least in L.A. My advice is to plead 'no contest' and ask the judge if s/he can change the tickets to non-moving violations. That way, you are taking responsibility, you will still pay the fines for the violations, but the tickets won't affect your insurance or driving privileges.
You would also be well-advised to consult with an attorney, since there is so much riding on the outcome of your situation.
posted by HotPatatta at 11:55 AM on November 25, 2007
Fighting a ticket is very hard, at least in L.A. My advice is to plead 'no contest' and ask the judge if s/he can change the tickets to non-moving violations. That way, you are taking responsibility, you will still pay the fines for the violations, but the tickets won't affect your insurance or driving privileges.
You would also be well-advised to consult with an attorney, since there is so much riding on the outcome of your situation.
posted by HotPatatta at 11:55 AM on November 25, 2007
Rereading my comment above, I realized I made it pretty inflammatory. It is no secret that some cops lie sometimes, and then sometimes not. I should have included those words.
posted by salvia at 12:03 PM on November 25, 2007
posted by salvia at 12:03 PM on November 25, 2007
And tell your lawyer the actual facts. Don't try to spin to him like you seemingly are to us.I'm sorry, when I said this I was thinking that your "I skipped over a parking lot" was a revelation. I missed it in your original post. I apologize.
posted by Flunkie at 12:09 PM on November 25, 2007
Everything I know about traffic court suggests highly scripted interactions between the judge, the cops, and the lawyer. One of the primary purposes of traffic fines is to make money for the municipality and the state -- it is a well-oiled system, and chances are you will not be able to represent yourself successfully. If you want a good chance of keeping your license, hire a lawyer.
posted by Krrrlson at 12:21 PM on November 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Krrrlson at 12:21 PM on November 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
IANAL, and I don't even have much experience here. But I don't think you can argue the facts of any of the 3 charges. You're pretty clearly guilty of all three. But everything I've heard suggests the following: plead guilty to #1 and #2. Apologize profusely.
But argue to the judge that, indeed, you didn't stop right away, but that was because there was no safe place to stop. Evidence would help, e.g. video tape, although yes, the parking lot might hurt your case. If you were feeling sleazy you could just do a few photos and omit the parking lot, but if they call you on the parking lot's existence, you've basically discredited yourself by excluding it.
The goal is to build up a (short-term) rapport with the judge, showing you as a repentant person who's not afraid to admit guilt, and use that to have the third charge dismissed. (Arguing that you did it for safety reasons, in my completely non-qualified opinion, may be the best approach.) You might even be able to get away with, "I did pass by another parking lot, but I hadn't seen it soon enough and would have had to brake sharply."
As to why you missed it when you drive that way every day, you were panicked because of the cops and freaking out that, because there was no safe place to stop, you worried they were going to think you were running away.
You're essentially throwing yourself on the mercy of the courts and hoping the judge will dismiss the third charge. So be super-friendly and apologize profusely. I don't think bringing up the cops' poor attitudes is going to get you anywhere in court. I'd omit any mention of it because it'll only make you seem vindictive.
As to the "I was asked persistently where I worked" bit -- next time around, be cooperative. While you didn't have to tell them, it's not really a big privacy invasion and refusing to tell them will only rub them the wrong way.
posted by fogster at 12:47 PM on November 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
But argue to the judge that, indeed, you didn't stop right away, but that was because there was no safe place to stop. Evidence would help, e.g. video tape, although yes, the parking lot might hurt your case. If you were feeling sleazy you could just do a few photos and omit the parking lot, but if they call you on the parking lot's existence, you've basically discredited yourself by excluding it.
The goal is to build up a (short-term) rapport with the judge, showing you as a repentant person who's not afraid to admit guilt, and use that to have the third charge dismissed. (Arguing that you did it for safety reasons, in my completely non-qualified opinion, may be the best approach.) You might even be able to get away with, "I did pass by another parking lot, but I hadn't seen it soon enough and would have had to brake sharply."
As to why you missed it when you drive that way every day, you were panicked because of the cops and freaking out that, because there was no safe place to stop, you worried they were going to think you were running away.
You're essentially throwing yourself on the mercy of the courts and hoping the judge will dismiss the third charge. So be super-friendly and apologize profusely. I don't think bringing up the cops' poor attitudes is going to get you anywhere in court. I'd omit any mention of it because it'll only make you seem vindictive.
As to the "I was asked persistently where I worked" bit -- next time around, be cooperative. While you didn't have to tell them, it's not really a big privacy invasion and refusing to tell them will only rub them the wrong way.
posted by fogster at 12:47 PM on November 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
+1 for getting a lawyer. IME, local motorcyclists often have references for the best traffic lawyers.
a note for future interactions: if you don't think there's a safe place to pull over, at least do *something* to indicate that you are aware of their presence and attempting to comply. slow down, put on your blinker, wave, whatever. it sounds like you didn't do this, which is only going to piss them off.
remember that random traffic stops are one of the most dangerous things that cops do -- they don't know if you're freaked out because you've never been pulled over or if you're freaked out because you have a big stash of drugs and a midget with an uzi in the truck of your car. during traffic stops, treat cops sort of like a feral animal -- move slowly and deliberately, and don't do anything to rile them up. the more you deviate from what they expect, the more they worry that you're dangerous. keep your hands in view whenever possible.
posted by rmd1023 at 12:59 PM on November 25, 2007
a note for future interactions: if you don't think there's a safe place to pull over, at least do *something* to indicate that you are aware of their presence and attempting to comply. slow down, put on your blinker, wave, whatever. it sounds like you didn't do this, which is only going to piss them off.
remember that random traffic stops are one of the most dangerous things that cops do -- they don't know if you're freaked out because you've never been pulled over or if you're freaked out because you have a big stash of drugs and a midget with an uzi in the truck of your car. during traffic stops, treat cops sort of like a feral animal -- move slowly and deliberately, and don't do anything to rile them up. the more you deviate from what they expect, the more they worry that you're dangerous. keep your hands in view whenever possible.
posted by rmd1023 at 12:59 PM on November 25, 2007
Get a lawyer.
Shoulder or no, you don't have a good reason for going through 2 lights and passing a parking lot AFTER speeding and BEFORE stopping. Cops get on edge about avoidance. They don't know if you are leading them into an ambush, or getting a weapon ready, or ditching drugs or weapons. Cops die in "routine" traffic stops all the time.
A lawyer and a merciful judge are your best bets.
posted by The Deej at 1:04 PM on November 25, 2007
Shoulder or no, you don't have a good reason for going through 2 lights and passing a parking lot AFTER speeding and BEFORE stopping. Cops get on edge about avoidance. They don't know if you are leading them into an ambush, or getting a weapon ready, or ditching drugs or weapons. Cops die in "routine" traffic stops all the time.
A lawyer and a merciful judge are your best bets.
posted by The Deej at 1:04 PM on November 25, 2007
I just want to reiterate the hopeful notion that if you do get your car inspected as soon as possible and bring the proof to court, the judge may let you off on that charge. I've done that, but not in Texas. And get a lawyer to save your license.
posted by Hobgoblin at 1:14 PM on November 25, 2007
posted by Hobgoblin at 1:14 PM on November 25, 2007
Definitely get a lawyer. First off your lawyer may be able to get the charges reduced. Secondly they can sometimes delay the hearing long enough that the point will expire before they actually become active. At least I know that they can work it that way in New York.
posted by frieze at 1:27 PM on November 25, 2007
posted by frieze at 1:27 PM on November 25, 2007
Other than the classic 'cops not showing up for court,' what can I hope for?
Two things right off the bat. First, the cop will show up. Why? Because they get paid to show up. If the court date is scheduled for their vacation, they'll get time and a half. You can pretty-much bet they'll be there. Your tax dollars at work.
Second, even if they don't show up, the police will likely have a department representative at hand in court. Their job is basically a legal place-holder of any and all officers that can't show up. Even though they weren't the ones to pull you over, they act as stand-ins for the officer: they'll just read to the court what the officer wrote verbatim. Again, your tax dollars at work.
But they never stated to me how they measured this, which I'm told can be important.
If it was by radar you can ask when their guns were last calibrated, to which they will almost certainly reply "that morning." Remember, the police are paid with your taxes, and they are not want for money. If they say they've got a lackey in their employ whose sole job it is to make sure all the radar guns are properly calibrated each and every morning, well, believe it. One more time: your tax dollars at work.
If it was estimated, then it's up to the judge to decide who to believe: you or the cop. Guess who wins? You got it!
Outdated inspection. Also true. [...] What's likely to happen if I challenge this point?
I can only assume you ask this as a mental exercise, because you'd have to be a complete moron to do this in real life. First off, you can only challenge the point if you disagree with it, which would be lying. To a judge. Don't lie to judges. It would be trivial for them to find out when you got your new inspection sticker. When they find out you're lying, you will be in a world of shit.
This is the one I object to, because at the time I noticed them, I was on a stretch of road that had no shoulder on either side. [...] I was on my way to work and had almost arrived, so I continued on my way to it and used their parking lot, but that was two lights and a turn later.
Did you give any indication at all that you were attempting to pull over? Did you slow down, put on your turn signal or emergency flashers, anything like that? Or did you just keep driving normally? It doesn't matter one way or the other, I'm just curious. Because if the police really thought you were trying to pull over but couldn't, they usually cut you some slack.
"Slack" does not equal two lights and a turn, for christ's sake. You could have pulled over at either traffic light, for instance. When a cop wants you to pull over, they want you to do it immediately. I've seen cars pulled over on interstates where the police car was stopped half inside a lane of traffic. They're reckless. They don't care about getting hit because 1) Machismo, 2) It's not their car, anyway, 3) If they get injured, they get paid leave, 4) They know that most people will do everything in their power to avoid hitting a police car.
I think the only way you're going to gloss over this particular point is if you said you were concerned for the safety of the officers and your fellow motorists because you didn't feel there was a safe place to pull over.
I was asked if I was aware that "in other places" I could have been forcibly pulled from my car, thrown to the concrete and handcuffed without question after My Behavior (3), and was asked to appreciate the self-control and kindness of the [city] police force in their treatment.
A traffic stop is legally no different than an investigative detention, and you should have the same expectations. They are legally allowed to ensure their own safety--thus if they say they feel threatened, they are legally allowed to verify this by a search of your person, so the officer was correct in his statement--though it's always nice to see the additional understated threat of bodily harm thrown in for good measure (assholes). And while you don't have to answer questions unrelated to the traffic stop, if you don't and they are sufficiently annoyed at your behavior, they can always take you into custody and then release you in... oh... a few hours. (U.S. v. Shareef , 100 F.3d 1491, 1500 -- 10th Cir. 1996). Paperwork's a bitch, you know?
You should get a lawyer if you feel there's a chance your license could be revoked. You probably won't get your license suspended, but there's no way in hell you're going to dodge this completely. If you want to piss the cops off, you could file a complaint with the department. Allegations of physical harm are usually enough to warrant a complaint, but don't expect anything to come of it except pissing off a bunch of people who have the legal ability (not right, per se) to make your life hell.
This is not legal advice. I am not your lawyer.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 2:21 PM on November 25, 2007
Two things right off the bat. First, the cop will show up. Why? Because they get paid to show up. If the court date is scheduled for their vacation, they'll get time and a half. You can pretty-much bet they'll be there. Your tax dollars at work.
Second, even if they don't show up, the police will likely have a department representative at hand in court. Their job is basically a legal place-holder of any and all officers that can't show up. Even though they weren't the ones to pull you over, they act as stand-ins for the officer: they'll just read to the court what the officer wrote verbatim. Again, your tax dollars at work.
But they never stated to me how they measured this, which I'm told can be important.
If it was by radar you can ask when their guns were last calibrated, to which they will almost certainly reply "that morning." Remember, the police are paid with your taxes, and they are not want for money. If they say they've got a lackey in their employ whose sole job it is to make sure all the radar guns are properly calibrated each and every morning, well, believe it. One more time: your tax dollars at work.
If it was estimated, then it's up to the judge to decide who to believe: you or the cop. Guess who wins? You got it!
Outdated inspection. Also true. [...] What's likely to happen if I challenge this point?
I can only assume you ask this as a mental exercise, because you'd have to be a complete moron to do this in real life. First off, you can only challenge the point if you disagree with it, which would be lying. To a judge. Don't lie to judges. It would be trivial for them to find out when you got your new inspection sticker. When they find out you're lying, you will be in a world of shit.
This is the one I object to, because at the time I noticed them, I was on a stretch of road that had no shoulder on either side. [...] I was on my way to work and had almost arrived, so I continued on my way to it and used their parking lot, but that was two lights and a turn later.
Did you give any indication at all that you were attempting to pull over? Did you slow down, put on your turn signal or emergency flashers, anything like that? Or did you just keep driving normally? It doesn't matter one way or the other, I'm just curious. Because if the police really thought you were trying to pull over but couldn't, they usually cut you some slack.
"Slack" does not equal two lights and a turn, for christ's sake. You could have pulled over at either traffic light, for instance. When a cop wants you to pull over, they want you to do it immediately. I've seen cars pulled over on interstates where the police car was stopped half inside a lane of traffic. They're reckless. They don't care about getting hit because 1) Machismo, 2) It's not their car, anyway, 3) If they get injured, they get paid leave, 4) They know that most people will do everything in their power to avoid hitting a police car.
I think the only way you're going to gloss over this particular point is if you said you were concerned for the safety of the officers and your fellow motorists because you didn't feel there was a safe place to pull over.
I was asked if I was aware that "in other places" I could have been forcibly pulled from my car, thrown to the concrete and handcuffed without question after My Behavior (3), and was asked to appreciate the self-control and kindness of the [city] police force in their treatment.
A traffic stop is legally no different than an investigative detention, and you should have the same expectations. They are legally allowed to ensure their own safety--thus if they say they feel threatened, they are legally allowed to verify this by a search of your person, so the officer was correct in his statement--though it's always nice to see the additional understated threat of bodily harm thrown in for good measure (assholes). And while you don't have to answer questions unrelated to the traffic stop, if you don't and they are sufficiently annoyed at your behavior, they can always take you into custody and then release you in... oh... a few hours. (U.S. v. Shareef , 100 F.3d 1491, 1500 -- 10th Cir. 1996). Paperwork's a bitch, you know?
You should get a lawyer if you feel there's a chance your license could be revoked. You probably won't get your license suspended, but there's no way in hell you're going to dodge this completely. If you want to piss the cops off, you could file a complaint with the department. Allegations of physical harm are usually enough to warrant a complaint, but don't expect anything to come of it except pissing off a bunch of people who have the legal ability (not right, per se) to make your life hell.
This is not legal advice. I am not your lawyer.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 2:21 PM on November 25, 2007
When a cop comes up behind you with signals and siren, you are required by law to pull over to the right and stop. That means stop immediately, right now and not when you think it is safe, regardless of if there is a shoulder. The lights are a direct order to stop. It is not for you to decide if it is safe or not. You have a cop car with flashing lights between you and the traffic so safety is not an issue. If the police do not want you to stop immediately because of safety they won't turn on their lights. They will follow you until you get to a place they want you to pull over and then turn on their lights. The fact that their signal lights were on means stop here. If the police then want you to proceed to the nearest turnoff, they will direct you to do so over their PA system, but only after you stop.
Many people continue to drive on hoping to pull into a driveway under the mistaken impression that the police cannot give you a citation on private property. They may have thought you were doing this. If you drove through two stop lights and another turn, you are lucky they didn't put you face down on the ground with handcuffs. No wonder they were in a foul mood. Your only hope is to plead idiot befuddlement and hope the judge takes mercy on you. You are not going to win on the facts.
posted by JackFlash at 2:40 PM on November 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
Many people continue to drive on hoping to pull into a driveway under the mistaken impression that the police cannot give you a citation on private property. They may have thought you were doing this. If you drove through two stop lights and another turn, you are lucky they didn't put you face down on the ground with handcuffs. No wonder they were in a foul mood. Your only hope is to plead idiot befuddlement and hope the judge takes mercy on you. You are not going to win on the facts.
posted by JackFlash at 2:40 PM on November 25, 2007 [1 favorite]
A couple of additional points.
I was asked persistently where I worked, which I didn't see the reason for and declined to say [...]
According to the Uniform Arrest Act (which is a sort of one-size-fits-all model for arresting officers that most states conform with), an officer can stop a person reasonably suspected of committing a crime and "demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going." Warner, The Uniform Arrest Act, 28 Va. L. Rev. 315, 344 (1942)
In other words, they're allowed to ask you where you're going. Your response ("to work") was sufficiently vague that they solicited additional information about the place of business. All legal.
[...] but invited them (!) to search the car for the drugs and weapons that my behavior (see 3) forced them to assume I was hiding.
That was dumb. Never, ever, ever, ever, fucking ever give the police more ammunition then they already have. If they ask you for your license and registration? Hand it over. Name, address, and destination? Tell them. If they ask you to do anything (as opposed to say anything), do it. But that's it. Only give up what you are legally required to give up, and not an inch more. You can be damned sure they'll use it against you later on.
Think about it for a second. They're cops. They're used to getting their way. If they have to actually ask your permission for anything, you can always assume it's because they don't already have it. If you're smart, you won't give it to them.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 2:40 PM on November 25, 2007
I was asked persistently where I worked, which I didn't see the reason for and declined to say [...]
According to the Uniform Arrest Act (which is a sort of one-size-fits-all model for arresting officers that most states conform with), an officer can stop a person reasonably suspected of committing a crime and "demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going." Warner, The Uniform Arrest Act, 28 Va. L. Rev. 315, 344 (1942)
In other words, they're allowed to ask you where you're going. Your response ("to work") was sufficiently vague that they solicited additional information about the place of business. All legal.
[...] but invited them (!) to search the car for the drugs and weapons that my behavior (see 3) forced them to assume I was hiding.
That was dumb. Never, ever, ever, ever, fucking ever give the police more ammunition then they already have. If they ask you for your license and registration? Hand it over. Name, address, and destination? Tell them. If they ask you to do anything (as opposed to say anything), do it. But that's it. Only give up what you are legally required to give up, and not an inch more. You can be damned sure they'll use it against you later on.
Think about it for a second. They're cops. They're used to getting their way. If they have to actually ask your permission for anything, you can always assume it's because they don't already have it. If you're smart, you won't give it to them.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 2:40 PM on November 25, 2007
Nolo Press publishes several legal self-help books including beating traffic tickets. Check out the reference section of your local bookstore or library. Make sure the book you look at is appropriate for your state. Get your car inspection thing taken care of before court and bring proof. This helps you establish that you do care and you aren't a dead beat.
I have fought one speeding ticket in court and while the fiine was cut in half, it still went on my record and that thing showed up on my record in another state 5 years later when I changed insurance companies after cross country move. Your charges are more serious and I agree with all the folks here telling you to consult a lawyer. Nolo Press can give you some general tips, but don't leave your future in the hands of a self help book. You pissed off the cops and they are teaching you a lesson. I've been pulled over other times for speeding and being polite, pulling over right away, being quiet, staying in the car with my hands visible on the steering wheel --these are the things that can mean the difference between a ticket and a warning.
posted by 45moore45 at 3:01 PM on November 25, 2007
I have fought one speeding ticket in court and while the fiine was cut in half, it still went on my record and that thing showed up on my record in another state 5 years later when I changed insurance companies after cross country move. Your charges are more serious and I agree with all the folks here telling you to consult a lawyer. Nolo Press can give you some general tips, but don't leave your future in the hands of a self help book. You pissed off the cops and they are teaching you a lesson. I've been pulled over other times for speeding and being polite, pulling over right away, being quiet, staying in the car with my hands visible on the steering wheel --these are the things that can mean the difference between a ticket and a warning.
posted by 45moore45 at 3:01 PM on November 25, 2007
I notice from your profile that you are a woman. I, also, am a woman, and it is my personal policy that if I am ever "buzzed by the fuzz" I will not stop until I find a place that is well-lit and where I feel safe. This may be a good personal policy to adopt and invoke. (Typically I would also call 911 nonemergency number and tell them I am being pulled over and I'm not stopping until I get somewhere safe, but since you didn't do that . . . .)
But, you need a lawyer.
posted by Medieval Maven at 4:09 PM on November 25, 2007
But, you need a lawyer.
posted by Medieval Maven at 4:09 PM on November 25, 2007
I can't help with anything but number 2:
In my state there's this tricky clause where you actually have 90 days to get your car inspected after it expires. You CAN be pulled over in that time, and you CAN be ticketed. ALL you have to do to beat it get the car inspected and present the ticket with the receipt for inspection @ the PoPo station and the ticket gets automatically waived.
Happened to me once, and it worked a charm.
Can't speak for your state, though.
posted by TomMelee at 4:31 PM on November 25, 2007
In my state there's this tricky clause where you actually have 90 days to get your car inspected after it expires. You CAN be pulled over in that time, and you CAN be ticketed. ALL you have to do to beat it get the car inspected and present the ticket with the receipt for inspection @ the PoPo station and the ticket gets automatically waived.
Happened to me once, and it worked a charm.
Can't speak for your state, though.
posted by TomMelee at 4:31 PM on November 25, 2007
Many of people have said to get a lawyer. To find the kind of lawyer you want, I suggest going to your local frat house and asking them who they call when one of them gets picked up for DUI. He should be rather used to handling these kind of cases and know the right ways to handle them. Most likely, you'll plead to something that still allows you to retain your license.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 5:13 PM on November 25, 2007
posted by Mr. Gunn at 5:13 PM on November 25, 2007
Other than the classic 'cops not showing up for court,' what can I hope for? -jinjo
Two things right off the bat. First, the cop will show up. Why? Because they get paid to show up. If the court date is scheduled for their vacation, they'll get time and a half. -Civil_Disobedient
Actually, both cops will show up because you pissed them off. If you ever get pulled over again, you want to be as unmemorable as possible.
Speaking as someone who's contested her fair share of Texas speeding tickets, you can get a lawyer who will do the continuance do-si-do in hopes that the cop will eventually be a no-show. If you've really managed to peeve those cops, they'll remember you and show up every single time.
How fast were you going and where - any construction or school zones? Perhaps your lawyer can get you deferred adjudication or defensive driving.
posted by 26.2 at 5:28 PM on November 25, 2007
Two things right off the bat. First, the cop will show up. Why? Because they get paid to show up. If the court date is scheduled for their vacation, they'll get time and a half. -Civil_Disobedient
Actually, both cops will show up because you pissed them off. If you ever get pulled over again, you want to be as unmemorable as possible.
Speaking as someone who's contested her fair share of Texas speeding tickets, you can get a lawyer who will do the continuance do-si-do in hopes that the cop will eventually be a no-show. If you've really managed to peeve those cops, they'll remember you and show up every single time.
How fast were you going and where - any construction or school zones? Perhaps your lawyer can get you deferred adjudication or defensive driving.
posted by 26.2 at 5:28 PM on November 25, 2007
General Traffic Ticket Advice
(Some of which is too late to be of use to the original poster.)
1) When pulled over, obey the officer's instructions and be polite and friendly. Do NOT be hostile or memorable. Do not lie, and do not argue with the police officer.
2) Accept the ticket from the officer, say "thank you," and drive away slowly and legally.
3) Do not automatically take traffic school. You can generally still opt for traffic school at the very end, after you've exhausted all your other options.
4) Delay, delay, delay. I had a friend delay a case so long, the officer involved took a job in another state. You want to do anything you can to make the officer's memory and his motivation fade.
5) In many jurisdictions, it's possible to dispute traffic tickets via postal mail. Officers get paid to show up in court, but they don't get paid extra to answer letters. If the officer doesn't answer, your case is dismissed.
6) If you end up going in to court and the stakes are significant, get a lawyer.
posted by schof at 5:37 PM on November 25, 2007
(Some of which is too late to be of use to the original poster.)
1) When pulled over, obey the officer's instructions and be polite and friendly. Do NOT be hostile or memorable. Do not lie, and do not argue with the police officer.
2) Accept the ticket from the officer, say "thank you," and drive away slowly and legally.
3) Do not automatically take traffic school. You can generally still opt for traffic school at the very end, after you've exhausted all your other options.
4) Delay, delay, delay. I had a friend delay a case so long, the officer involved took a job in another state. You want to do anything you can to make the officer's memory and his motivation fade.
5) In many jurisdictions, it's possible to dispute traffic tickets via postal mail. Officers get paid to show up in court, but they don't get paid extra to answer letters. If the officer doesn't answer, your case is dismissed.
6) If you end up going in to court and the stakes are significant, get a lawyer.
posted by schof at 5:37 PM on November 25, 2007
From your description of what happened, as well as the way you have described the thing to us, I think you will come across very poorly in court if you try to represent yourself. And under these circumstances, you do not want the judge thinking you're obnoxious, because the judge will then believe the officers and find you guilty.
Smart, otherwise articulate defendants often hurt their cases grievously because they think can explain everything, that if just given the opportunity to tell their story the judge will understand what good, naive, sweet people they are, and that the judge will realize what jerks the mean officers were. But it doesn't work that way.
Police officers are professional witnesses. Testifying in court is a big part of their job. A layperson, going up against a police officer, stands little chance of persuading the court in the absence of legal representation. Courts give great deference to the testimony of officers. Judges know what obnoxious pain-in-the-asses that even decent middle-class people can be, and are likely to discredit your testimony.
In short, get a lawyer. You don't want to have to speak for yourself.
(Where I live, merely hiring an attorney is a virtual guarantee that your ticket will be dismissed. The traffic-court DA's cut you a break if they see you went to the expense of hiring an attorney, and it's sort of professional courtesy by the DA to let the defense attorneys get good results for their traffic-court clients.)
posted by jayder at 5:43 PM on November 25, 2007
Smart, otherwise articulate defendants often hurt their cases grievously because they think can explain everything, that if just given the opportunity to tell their story the judge will understand what good, naive, sweet people they are, and that the judge will realize what jerks the mean officers were. But it doesn't work that way.
Police officers are professional witnesses. Testifying in court is a big part of their job. A layperson, going up against a police officer, stands little chance of persuading the court in the absence of legal representation. Courts give great deference to the testimony of officers. Judges know what obnoxious pain-in-the-asses that even decent middle-class people can be, and are likely to discredit your testimony.
In short, get a lawyer. You don't want to have to speak for yourself.
(Where I live, merely hiring an attorney is a virtual guarantee that your ticket will be dismissed. The traffic-court DA's cut you a break if they see you went to the expense of hiring an attorney, and it's sort of professional courtesy by the DA to let the defense attorneys get good results for their traffic-court clients.)
posted by jayder at 5:43 PM on November 25, 2007
I commented above, but wanted to add --
I've gotten a number of tickets reduced and late fines knocked down to almost nothing [knock on wood that I'm not jinxing myself here] by an earnest and honest combination of things like "I take full responsibility for a good portion of this but would like to ask for leniency in one area... I didn't get the letter since I'd moved even though I had given the officer my new address... This really confused me... I tried to figure it out... At that point, I believed I was doing the right thing because __...Once I realized, I tried to set things right... I got very busy because I had just taken a new job, so I know I did let too much time pass... I take responsibility for this portion and know there will be some fine but hope the Court will show leniency and reduce the fine on this other portion."
As much as courts are legalistic, rule-bound things, there seems to be a fair amount of room for human judgment. You might get some mileage by recognizing their authority; repenting in the ways you did screw up; and seeking to clarify that you aren't a reckless, aggressive scofflaw but someone who tries to do the right thing and submissively hopes that they will use their wise judgment and power to show you leniency.
posted by salvia at 10:43 PM on November 25, 2007
I've gotten a number of tickets reduced and late fines knocked down to almost nothing [knock on wood that I'm not jinxing myself here] by an earnest and honest combination of things like "I take full responsibility for a good portion of this but would like to ask for leniency in one area... I didn't get the letter since I'd moved even though I had given the officer my new address... This really confused me... I tried to figure it out... At that point, I believed I was doing the right thing because __...Once I realized, I tried to set things right... I got very busy because I had just taken a new job, so I know I did let too much time pass... I take responsibility for this portion and know there will be some fine but hope the Court will show leniency and reduce the fine on this other portion."
As much as courts are legalistic, rule-bound things, there seems to be a fair amount of room for human judgment. You might get some mileage by recognizing their authority; repenting in the ways you did screw up; and seeking to clarify that you aren't a reckless, aggressive scofflaw but someone who tries to do the right thing and submissively hopes that they will use their wise judgment and power to show you leniency.
posted by salvia at 10:43 PM on November 25, 2007
did not attempt to escape or whatever as the citation implies
Being in Collin County, have a lawyer.
posted by thomcatspike at 12:21 AM on November 26, 2007
Being in Collin County, have a lawyer.
posted by thomcatspike at 12:21 AM on November 26, 2007
Response by poster: Okay, so it looks like just one question remains: should I get a lawyer? :p
Thanks for the advice, everyone. I know I had some bonehead questions in there, but I figure he who asks is a fool for five minutes, etc. etc.
posted by jinjo at 2:40 PM on November 26, 2007
Thanks for the advice, everyone. I know I had some bonehead questions in there, but I figure he who asks is a fool for five minutes, etc. etc.
posted by jinjo at 2:40 PM on November 26, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Oriole Adams at 11:19 AM on November 25, 2007