Getting Scammed?

November 16, 2007 7:30 AM

eBay filter: I'm looking to buy a Macbook Pro @ about $2000. The seller will only accept USPS money orders, and that makes me a bit nervous...

He has good feedback...just over a hundred. But all his items were sold over 6 months ago so I can't see the items. He's been good about getting in touch with me, and I've even spoken with him on the phone.

I'm still a little nervous I'm headed to the wash though. He assures me that a USPS money order is completely secure for both of us--leaving a paper trail and protected for fraudulent transactions. I asked him about escrow.com and Paypal, and he told me about past problems he's had with them (seemingly legitimate).

Oh yeah, possible screwball--he's in Canada.

FWIW, I'm just buying this computer because it's a great deal, and I'm going to resell it. (College student, gotta pay the bills.) What do you say, am I getting taken? Or am I safe to go ahead?

posted by jpcody to technology (30 comments total)

Absolutely not. Stop now. There is 0% chance you will receive this Macbook.

The seller's account has been taken over. This is a common way for scammers to get a "respectable" account. They take over someone's account who has left eBay and use it to post high-demand items at low costs.

The only paper trail you have is if you get the post office to conduct a mail fraud investigation, which I don't think you want to go through. Moreover, if it's overseas, there's even less chance of that happening.
posted by saeculorum at 7:32 AM on November 16, 2007

saeculorum is right -- don't do it.
posted by danb at 7:34 AM on November 16, 2007

I haven't heard anyone say that escrow.com is bad, unless they're a scammer.

I would strongly recommend against the purchase, particularly considering that you don't actually need the item, and that it appears mispriced to the point that you feel you can profit.
posted by Malor at 7:35 AM on November 16, 2007 [1 favorite]

nthing that. It happened to me. Someone hijacked my account and 'sold' 6 Apple cinema displays for well below retail. Luckily I was able to notify 4 of them, but two got taken.

OTOH He could be a casual ebay seller, and totally legit. USPS money order is secure, but not a guarantee of receiving anything.
posted by Gungho at 7:38 AM on November 16, 2007

Considering you can get Apple certified refurbished MacBook Pros for $1699 to $2199 direct from Apple, I'm not sure how much of a profit you could make reselling this particular computer, aside from the possible scam aspect.
posted by needled at 7:47 AM on November 16, 2007

Since you can talk with the seller, tell him you are exploring your options and ask if he can deliver it to a friend in person in his town. If he balks at all, it could be another indicator that this is a scam (which I agree is highly likely already).
posted by mikepop at 7:53 AM on November 16, 2007

A seller asking for a USPS money order is not necessarily nefarious.

I sell a lot on Ebay, and I only accept two payment methods:

- Paypal, if I know I can ship to the buyer with a shipping method that offers proof of delivery. This way I can defend myself if the buyer puts a claim in with Paypal that they never received the item.

- USPS money order. A lot of scams have occurred with buyers sending forged money orders that look like they come from a bank. Most banks will not lift a finger in pursuit of a forger of money orders.

The US Postal service is a different animal entirely. Anyone who forges a US Postal service money order can be assured of an investigation and stiff penalties if prosecuted. The USPS offers $10,000 rewards for information leading to convictions in money order forgeries.

My point - asking for a USPS money order over any plain old money order may just be a sign of an astute seller.
posted by de void at 8:09 AM on November 16, 2007

Before Paypal, USPS money orders were the standard form of payment for people who didn't take personal checks. This is not the same as Western Union. I vote non-nefarious.
posted by kingjoeshmoe at 8:14 AM on November 16, 2007

I'm not sure if i think this is nefarious, because USPS money orders are ok and I don't think this is THAT good a deal, if your not going to use it, why take the risk?
posted by yeahyeahyeahwhoo at 8:17 AM on November 16, 2007

If you have to think twice about it, you're generally better off playing it safe.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 8:29 AM on November 16, 2007

I don't think it's necessarily illegitimate, but I think buying-to-resell is probably a bad idea. What makes me think this is a scam isn't the USPS M.O., but that the price is low enough to make you think you can buy and sell it at a profit. That's the warning bell in my mind.

But the combination of it being international (well, okay, Canada), a basically-cash payment method, and the seller's refusal to use escrow do add up to it being a bit sketchy.

Do you know anyone in the seller's area who could go and inspect the merchandise in person? Do you have enough verifiable information on the seller so that, if they made off with your money and never sent the computer, you could tell the police where to find them? Are you sure that they even have the computer? (I know it's a dick thing to do, but maybe you could ask them to send you a photo of the computer sitting on top of the cover page from a national newspaper for proof.)

Did the seller state in the item description that they'd only take USPS M.O.'s as payment? If so you're probably going to get bad feedback if you back out, but you're just going to have to live with it.

I guess I'd call him and say you're not comfortable sending what's effectively cash payment for a high-dollar-value international item without using escrow, and see what he says. Maybe he wants to sell it badly enough that he'll get over his objections. Or maybe he'll just give you bad feedback and go to the next person in line -- in which case you can relax and know that you dodged a bullet.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:18 AM on November 16, 2007

Seems innocent enough to me. Paypal has its faults, after all, and the USPS money order is indeed the "most legit" type.

But like needled said, is this really such a good deal? The refurbs from Apple have full warranty, free shipping, replacements when you change your mind and want a different one, etc.

(I am using one now.)
posted by rokusan at 9:19 AM on November 16, 2007

Thanks so much for the feedback...

Re: Reselling -- I do this pretty often. This computer is selling @ 1900, and I've gotten 5 or 6 @ 2,000. I resell them at about 2500. So it's not a ridiculously good deal, and I will make a profit.

Unfortunately, I don't know anyone in the area. I might pretend I do, I'm not really sure what I'll end up doing.

I was feeling sold on not going for it, but then some mefites at the end came in and weighed out the argument. I guess I'll just have to keep thinking about it.

Thanks so much for your answers so far.
posted by jpcody at 9:43 AM on November 16, 2007

Well, if you feel you can estimate the chance that it's legit, you could look at it from a purely mathematical point of view. e.g., if you think it's a 90% chance that it's legit, your upside is 500 (2500-2000) and your downside is 2000, so .9*500 - .1*2000 means on average you'd still be making $250.

Problem with that is it assumes you are able to absorb the losses, which probably is not all that true.
posted by dixie flatline at 10:14 AM on November 16, 2007

Please note that while the USPS goes after people who forge money orders with the "big guns", that is not the case here. You would not be forging a money order, I assume.

The seller would be able to receive the money order, cash it, then disappear. The only recourse you have would be to try to get someone in Canada for mail fraud. I doubt the USPS would help you. I am not familiar with the Canadian mail system, but I don't think they'd help you either. Since the money order was legitimately issued and legitimately cashed, the USPS would have fulfilled their obligation with the money order.
posted by saeculorum at 10:16 AM on November 16, 2007

By the way, that would also imply that you'd need to be at least 80% sure that the deal is legit to come out ahead. In this case I'd say there's probably more than 20% doubt, so it's probably not a good deal.
posted by dixie flatline at 10:17 AM on November 16, 2007

...The only recourse you have would be to try to get someone in Canada for mail fraud. I doubt the USPS would help you. ...

The US Postal Inspection Service has cooperated with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police before:

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2007/05/centurion.shtm

Would they coordinate an action for a single case of ebay fraud? Unknown, but it is not hopeless.
posted by de void at 11:17 AM on November 16, 2007

Welcome to your textbook eBay scam. Don't do it. If he's a legitimate seller, he'll have a PayPal account--without PayPal, you'll have little or no recourse if he sends you a broken laptop or nothing at all.
posted by fandango_matt at 11:59 AM on November 16, 2007

Here's the other point -- the best deals you can find on ebay are the more risky deals, that everyone else has already bypassed, due to low feedback, or poor item writeup.
posted by garlic at 12:18 PM on November 16, 2007

Depending on the specs, a MBP @ $2k doesn't really sound like a great deal. Have you considered buy refurbished?

You can get the top-of-the-line MBP for about $300-400 off. Then, upgrade it with 3rd-party RAM and perhaps a new 3rd-party harddrive (cause Apple charges up the ass for RAM and drives) and you'd be able to flip it for easily $2500.
posted by revmitcz at 2:13 PM on November 16, 2007

*that was supposed to say "buying refurbished"
posted by revmitcz at 2:13 PM on November 16, 2007

I tend to be conservative about my eBay purchases, as I don't feel I have a lot of money to potentially throw away.

That said, the way I look at it, it's not so much about figuring out if it's a fraud or not. My approach is to look at the consequences if it is a fraud. With PayPal, or some other means of credit card payment, you get some measure of insurance, or buyer protection. You essentially have no protection here (despite seemingly pedantic arguments to the contrary--who cares if the government goes after the guy? You're still not going to get that $2k back, even in the best case).

So, are you willing to risk throwing away $2000? I wouldn't be, but like I said, I'm pretty conservative about such things, and two grand is a lot of money to me. YMMV.
posted by Brak at 3:05 PM on November 16, 2007

posted by jpcody He assures me that a USPS money order is completely secure for both of us--leaving a paper trail and protected for fraudulent transactions.

He's lying. The USPS money order is indeed secure, because it's the same thing as cash--once you give it to him, you have no recourse. And while it does indeed leave a paper trail, it offers no guarantee against fraudulent purchases.

posted by jpcody I asked him about escrow.com and Paypal, and he told me about past problems he's had with them (seemingly legitimate).

The overwhelming majority of people who refuse to use PayPal because of "problems" are scammers. I hear this claim a lot, and it's always the same scam. Again, DON'T DO IT!
posted by fandango_matt at 4:31 PM on November 16, 2007

Honestly I wouldn't do it. I'm a frequent ebayer and the one time someone tried to take my payment and never send the item PayPal came through for me. So, I often wonder, what sort of problem could a seller have that would cause them to refuse using PayPal, the number one way people send money through ebay. Maybe ask him what those problems were, and if you're really nervous, just don't do it. The problem here is that there really is nothing you can do if he takes the money and runs. If he is honest and wants to sell it to you, maybe he'd be willing to accept payment another way. If not, don't do it.
posted by missmle at 5:53 PM on November 16, 2007

If you offer to pay 100% of the escrow fees, and he still says no, don't do it.

Otherwise, you really can't tell.
Note that laptops are a magnet for scammers.
posted by Chuckles at 7:34 PM on November 16, 2007

Another approach.. Get his phone number and phone him. Look him up on Canada411, google his name, phone number, address, ebay alias, and etc. Get his work phone number and call him at work. Call reception and verify that he really works at the place he says he works. And, etc.
posted by Chuckles at 7:40 PM on November 16, 2007

Don't do it! Clearly a scammer.
posted by evariste at 9:12 PM on November 16, 2007

You have to look at this as a risky investment. You pay $2000 and you have a chance of getting a laptop you can make a $500 profit on, and you have a chance of getting nothing at all.

So it's either a 25% return on your investment or a 100% loss. Let's conservatively assume that there's a 50% chance of either. As investments go, that sucks. Any investment with that kind of risk would have to double your money to be worthwhile. You can get a much better deal in Vegas.

My assessment is that it's almost certainly a scam, and I wouldn't risk that kind of money for a 25% profit with such a high degree of risk.

1. His feedback is just over 100 - I consider that a very low positive. If someone had 100% positive feedback but only 105 feedbacks, I'd be very wary of spending $2000. It's very easy to rack up 100 fraudulent (or real) feedbacks for a payout like that.

2. The fact that all of his previous transactions were 6 months ago is a strong indication that his account may have been taken over by someone else.

3. The insistence on a money order isn't a sure-fire guarantee of fraud, but it's yet another risk factor.

4. The fact that the seller is in another country will make it very difficult for you to deal with fraud if it happens.

I would forget this one and move on.

In short: listen to everyone else...
posted by mmoncur at 1:56 AM on November 19, 2007

1. His feedback is just over 100 - I consider that a very low positive. If someone had 100% positive feedback but only 105 feedbacks, I'd be very wary of spending $2000. It's very easy to rack up 100 fraudulent (or real) feedbacks for a payout like that.

I don't agree.. 100 positive feedback is a very good rating for a regular person. Or, perhaps more to the point, it is the most you can expect from a regular person. The problem with his feedback isn't quantity, it is this:

all his items were sold over 6 months ago so I can't see the items.

To judge his feedback rating under this circumstance, first recognize that it is a big negative. Then consider the following. Read the comments in detail for clues about what kinds of items he buys/sells and hints at what kind of deals he makes, see how much selling (not buying) he does, and click through to his customers to see what they do on ebay. Generic positive comments are pretty meaningless, but if you find personalized positive comments from reputable users..
All feedback from within the last 6 months would also be a negative to me (minor though, because you can examine the details of the transactions, which can tell you a lot). Ideally, you are looking for a 2 year or longer record of occasional but steady use.
posted by Chuckles at 9:26 AM on November 19, 2007

If he's had problems with escrow.com and paypal, why isn't that reflected in some negative feedback?

Why are you letting the seller set the terms of the deal? Aren't your concerns regarding scams as valid as his concerns about Paypal?

I think it's a scam.
posted by 26.2 at 8:43 AM on November 20, 2007