Kissing Others
November 12, 2007 8:06 AM Subscribe
How do I tell my partner that I want to make out with other people?
I'm a hetero 40-y.o. woman, love my partner (10 years) and don't want to break up, nor do I really want to swing. We have frequent, good (sometimes great) sex, and while not super touchy feely, we definitely hug a lot, etc.
But, I really just want to be able to make out with other guys if/when the mood/opportunity strikes. I don't even really want to have sex with these other people, nor do I really want these enounters to really "mean" anything beyond experiencing the simple joy of healthy human sensuality. I love touching and being touched, and I want more of it in my life. And, I like making out, the anticipation leading up to the making out, the kissing, the body-against-body feeling -- basically all of it.
I know, I should talk to him about it, maybe he would be open to the idea and I'll never know unless we discuss it. (He's not conservative at all, really, but neither has he ever mentioned wanting to "branch out" either.)
The problem: I think I would be crazy jealous and insecure if he wanted to do the same. I know it isn't "fair" and I could maybe deal with it if I didn't have to know about it, but that seems kind of wimpy and messed up.
The other problem: we spend quite a bit of time apart (2 months at a time, a couple of times a year) and on separate continents (due to our work situation) and when he's not around, I start looking around. I don't really want to "cheat" but if the opportunity presented itself, I probably would. (Intercourse=no; heavy petting=yes.)
Part of me really doesn't like that I would consider doing that, but the other part of me doesn't feel that my desires are "wrong" or unnatural, and maybe I just need to accept that even though I thought I was a straight-and-narrow, monogamously-inclined Midwestern-raised girl, I'm not -- and that an alternative partnership approach would actually be more fulfilling.
What I'm describing seems as if it would be a very common situation -- but the most commonly proffered advice seems to be that "one has to make compromises in order to enjoy the benefits of a long-term partnership -- everybody wants to make out with other people but they don't unless they're swingers so get over it."
Well, I don't really want to compromise and am wondering if anyone out there has figured out a way to make a situation like this work?
I'm a hetero 40-y.o. woman, love my partner (10 years) and don't want to break up, nor do I really want to swing. We have frequent, good (sometimes great) sex, and while not super touchy feely, we definitely hug a lot, etc.
But, I really just want to be able to make out with other guys if/when the mood/opportunity strikes. I don't even really want to have sex with these other people, nor do I really want these enounters to really "mean" anything beyond experiencing the simple joy of healthy human sensuality. I love touching and being touched, and I want more of it in my life. And, I like making out, the anticipation leading up to the making out, the kissing, the body-against-body feeling -- basically all of it.
I know, I should talk to him about it, maybe he would be open to the idea and I'll never know unless we discuss it. (He's not conservative at all, really, but neither has he ever mentioned wanting to "branch out" either.)
The problem: I think I would be crazy jealous and insecure if he wanted to do the same. I know it isn't "fair" and I could maybe deal with it if I didn't have to know about it, but that seems kind of wimpy and messed up.
The other problem: we spend quite a bit of time apart (2 months at a time, a couple of times a year) and on separate continents (due to our work situation) and when he's not around, I start looking around. I don't really want to "cheat" but if the opportunity presented itself, I probably would. (Intercourse=no; heavy petting=yes.)
Part of me really doesn't like that I would consider doing that, but the other part of me doesn't feel that my desires are "wrong" or unnatural, and maybe I just need to accept that even though I thought I was a straight-and-narrow, monogamously-inclined Midwestern-raised girl, I'm not -- and that an alternative partnership approach would actually be more fulfilling.
What I'm describing seems as if it would be a very common situation -- but the most commonly proffered advice seems to be that "one has to make compromises in order to enjoy the benefits of a long-term partnership -- everybody wants to make out with other people but they don't unless they're swingers so get over it."
Well, I don't really want to compromise and am wondering if anyone out there has figured out a way to make a situation like this work?
Just ask him. But you have to accept he might say "no", or "only if I can too". And making out with other people may lead to having sex with them, even if you don't intend it now.
posted by crocomancer at 8:22 AM on November 12, 2007
posted by crocomancer at 8:22 AM on November 12, 2007
[T]he most commonly proffered advice seems to be that "one has to make compromises in order to enjoy the benefits of a long-term partnership -- everybody wants to make out with other people but they don't unless they're swingers so get over it."
Yes, that's right.
There's no real difference between "intercourse" and "heavy petting." Either way, you're being false to your partner, assuming the facts you've given above.
posted by JimN2TAW at 8:24 AM on November 12, 2007
Yes, that's right.
There's no real difference between "intercourse" and "heavy petting." Either way, you're being false to your partner, assuming the facts you've given above.
posted by JimN2TAW at 8:24 AM on November 12, 2007
"I want to make out with other people"
Really, there's no way to cushion this to make it any less of a blow. If it's something that wouldn't bother him, his immediate reaction should reflect that. Same as if it would bother him.
If the idea doesn't bother him, then you will have nothing to worry about by being so honest, and you can go have some fun on the side.
If the idea does bother him, then that's something you'll have figure out how to deal with. You'll have to weigh what's more important, making-out with people or having a loving partner.
Also, just as a side note, do you really think making-out won't lead to sex if you go out regularly? I mean, come on.
posted by greta simone at 8:27 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Really, there's no way to cushion this to make it any less of a blow. If it's something that wouldn't bother him, his immediate reaction should reflect that. Same as if it would bother him.
If the idea doesn't bother him, then you will have nothing to worry about by being so honest, and you can go have some fun on the side.
If the idea does bother him, then that's something you'll have figure out how to deal with. You'll have to weigh what's more important, making-out with people or having a loving partner.
Also, just as a side note, do you really think making-out won't lead to sex if you go out regularly? I mean, come on.
posted by greta simone at 8:27 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Obviously, you've already researched the issue and have completely rejected the common advice. So, why ask the question again? You seem to be working hard to convince yourself that it's okay to mess around so, if that's what you want, go ahead.
But understand that you are, in fact, on your way to leaving your relationship. Don't kid yourself. We aren't talking about treating yourself to an extra ice cream. Obviously, you aren't getting what you need from the relationship. Either talk with each other and fix it (counseling?) or leave.
Compromise in a relationship is a sign of adult behavior.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:28 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
But understand that you are, in fact, on your way to leaving your relationship. Don't kid yourself. We aren't talking about treating yourself to an extra ice cream. Obviously, you aren't getting what you need from the relationship. Either talk with each other and fix it (counseling?) or leave.
Compromise in a relationship is a sign of adult behavior.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:28 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
Though this may not (yet) be about sex, the issues connected to it are all sexual, so you may as well treat this openly as a sexual issue.
You and your partner have some issues to work on before you're ready to proceed with anything like this (provided you're not willing to just go make out with someone secretly, which is my first recommendation). When territorial or jealous feelings are involved, they come in three layers:
1. Instinctive: you have an instinctive, unconscious fear of rejection, loss, and entitlement.
2. Cultural: we are trained to believe that it is not possible for someone to love more than one person at a time, and that anyone who gives in to desire outside the boundaries of a relationship is reckless or self-destructive. We are conditioned to feel shame and jealousy when presented with the idea of our partner desiring or pursuiing other people.
3. Actual: your own distinctive, situational, personal thoughts on the matter, whatever they may be.
Unfortunately, the first two pretty much kick the ass of the third most of the time. If you can explore the relevance of your instincts, and can reconcile the cultural gap between the life others expect you to have as a partnered person and the one you actually DO have, then really all that's left is your own identity, personality, and desires, and those of your partner (if they too can be in touch with them, and communicate them). And that part of you really, really wants to make out with other people, if possible!
You guys need to be comfortable talking about these things. If there are fights to be had or long agonizing talks to be talked, you need to have them over time as part of the process of growing together as sexual beings. People avoid these topics, except for in jokes, for fear of rocking the boat.
I think the best time to have these talks is not fully dressed over dinner at a restaurant, but in the bedroom, before or after sex, when your partner (ideally) feels the most sexually secure in your presence and everything is at its most frank and casual. Sharing your fantasy may lead to hotter sex with your partner, even if it never leads to you getting to make out with anyone else.
The more you talk about it, the more relaxed you may feel about what is "fair". And the less threatened you will hopefully feel about the idea of the shoe being on the other foot. Try to examine how much of your own jealousy is derived from points 1 and 2 on my list, and how much is really your own; from there you'll have a pretty clear idea of the work you have to do on yourself before you approach your partner with all this.
posted by hermitosis at 8:32 AM on November 12, 2007 [8 favorites]
You and your partner have some issues to work on before you're ready to proceed with anything like this (provided you're not willing to just go make out with someone secretly, which is my first recommendation). When territorial or jealous feelings are involved, they come in three layers:
1. Instinctive: you have an instinctive, unconscious fear of rejection, loss, and entitlement.
2. Cultural: we are trained to believe that it is not possible for someone to love more than one person at a time, and that anyone who gives in to desire outside the boundaries of a relationship is reckless or self-destructive. We are conditioned to feel shame and jealousy when presented with the idea of our partner desiring or pursuiing other people.
3. Actual: your own distinctive, situational, personal thoughts on the matter, whatever they may be.
Unfortunately, the first two pretty much kick the ass of the third most of the time. If you can explore the relevance of your instincts, and can reconcile the cultural gap between the life others expect you to have as a partnered person and the one you actually DO have, then really all that's left is your own identity, personality, and desires, and those of your partner (if they too can be in touch with them, and communicate them). And that part of you really, really wants to make out with other people, if possible!
You guys need to be comfortable talking about these things. If there are fights to be had or long agonizing talks to be talked, you need to have them over time as part of the process of growing together as sexual beings. People avoid these topics, except for in jokes, for fear of rocking the boat.
I think the best time to have these talks is not fully dressed over dinner at a restaurant, but in the bedroom, before or after sex, when your partner (ideally) feels the most sexually secure in your presence and everything is at its most frank and casual. Sharing your fantasy may lead to hotter sex with your partner, even if it never leads to you getting to make out with anyone else.
The more you talk about it, the more relaxed you may feel about what is "fair". And the less threatened you will hopefully feel about the idea of the shoe being on the other foot. Try to examine how much of your own jealousy is derived from points 1 and 2 on my list, and how much is really your own; from there you'll have a pretty clear idea of the work you have to do on yourself before you approach your partner with all this.
posted by hermitosis at 8:32 AM on November 12, 2007 [8 favorites]
I think I would be crazy jealous and insecure if he wanted to do the same.
You just answered your own question.
Relationships where different levels of extramarital affection is allowed can and do work -- everyone draws the "cheating" line at a different place -- but your own reaction demonstrates that for you, this sort of thing is cheating.
Rationalize it as 'the simple joy of human sexuality' all you want, but if it's the sort of thing that'd be a huge problem if done to you, it'll be just as big a problem if done by you. Let alone what your partner might think about it; you've got all the ingredients for a disaster right there in your own head.
posted by ook at 8:48 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
You just answered your own question.
Relationships where different levels of extramarital affection is allowed can and do work -- everyone draws the "cheating" line at a different place -- but your own reaction demonstrates that for you, this sort of thing is cheating.
Rationalize it as 'the simple joy of human sexuality' all you want, but if it's the sort of thing that'd be a huge problem if done to you, it'll be just as big a problem if done by you. Let alone what your partner might think about it; you've got all the ingredients for a disaster right there in your own head.
posted by ook at 8:48 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
If you wanted to be polyamorous, that'd be one thing. But you don't:
The problem: I think I would be crazy jealous and insecure if he wanted to do the same.
If your answer to him would be "no," then that should be your answer for yourself. Door's gotta swing both ways, or the relationship is not a relationship. Your reluctance to let him do what you want him to let you do, coupled with the fact that you're "looking around" when he's out of the country, means you're likely really just looking for something else.
On preview, what ook said.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:52 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
The problem: I think I would be crazy jealous and insecure if he wanted to do the same.
If your answer to him would be "no," then that should be your answer for yourself. Door's gotta swing both ways, or the relationship is not a relationship. Your reluctance to let him do what you want him to let you do, coupled with the fact that you're "looking around" when he's out of the country, means you're likely really just looking for something else.
On preview, what ook said.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:52 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
I've known many couples who've experimented this way, and virtually all of them divorced or broke up before too many years went by. I say 'virtually' because I do know one couple that seems to have made it work by carefully limiting the scope of such adventures. They have a clan of like-minded friends, and they all get together for a party in a distant place once a year, during which the normal social restrictions are significantly relaxed. The rest of the year, they're all relatively white-bread.
posted by jon1270 at 8:54 AM on November 12, 2007
posted by jon1270 at 8:54 AM on November 12, 2007
How do I tell my partner that I want to make out with other people?
You tell him as part of telling him things have to change with his (or is it your?) job schedule or eventually you're going to start sleeping around. And that probably would mean you two are done, don't you think?
posted by pracowity at 9:00 AM on November 12, 2007
You tell him as part of telling him things have to change with his (or is it your?) job schedule or eventually you're going to start sleeping around. And that probably would mean you two are done, don't you think?
posted by pracowity at 9:00 AM on November 12, 2007
I kind of doubt that this is new for you. This is something that has probably come up in the past, prior to this relationship.
Reading what you said it sounds like there is an empathy short circuit there. You are aware of how you would react if he acted out on his desires to other women. You know you would react strongly and be hurt by it. At the same time it seems like you aren't really connected to how he would be impacted by you acting out on your sensual/carnal impulses. It reads as if he just gave you permission, you would follow up, independently of the impact on him. The truth is you don't need his permission for anything. You just have to consider what the relationship means to you and what he means to you. If you can approach it from that place, rather than (the childish) I want my needs met, then maybe you can actually have a conversation about it. If I were your BF and you just came to me with a request like that in a clearly self-centered way then there wouldn't be much left to the relationship. So, if you can get over yourself maybe you can have some kind of useful conversation.
You might also consider why these feelings have exacerbated of late. You probably don't think so, but has turning 40 made this more acute?
posted by blueyellow at 9:01 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
Reading what you said it sounds like there is an empathy short circuit there. You are aware of how you would react if he acted out on his desires to other women. You know you would react strongly and be hurt by it. At the same time it seems like you aren't really connected to how he would be impacted by you acting out on your sensual/carnal impulses. It reads as if he just gave you permission, you would follow up, independently of the impact on him. The truth is you don't need his permission for anything. You just have to consider what the relationship means to you and what he means to you. If you can approach it from that place, rather than (the childish) I want my needs met, then maybe you can actually have a conversation about it. If I were your BF and you just came to me with a request like that in a clearly self-centered way then there wouldn't be much left to the relationship. So, if you can get over yourself maybe you can have some kind of useful conversation.
You might also consider why these feelings have exacerbated of late. You probably don't think so, but has turning 40 made this more acute?
posted by blueyellow at 9:01 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
... I really just want to be able to make out with other guys if/when the mood/opportunity strikes ...
... Intercourse=no; heavy petting=yes ...
... I think I would be crazy jealous and insecure if he wanted to do the same ...
... I don't really want to "cheat" but if the opportunity presented itself, I probably would ...
... I don't really want to compromise ...
Your problem has nothing to do with sex. You just want to be free and have the world conform to your desires. In other words, you're having a perfectly normal, classic midlife crisis, and at the core of it is the fact that you're dissatisfied in your relationship.
You need to do the hard work of figuring out what's really causing that dissatisfaction. It's definitely not about making out with other people. Maybe you can't handle it anymore that he's away for 2 months at a time. Maybe you need something else in your life that gives you more of a sense of adventure. Maybe you don't feel 40, and you want to feel young and sexy again. Or maybe you just don't really want to be in this relationship, but you're afraid of losing the security it brings you.
Some of those problems will be for you to work on yourself. Other may concern your partner, and so then you have to do the hard work of broaching those issues with him and figuring out how to work together to make things change. That's what people mean when they say that relationships are about hard work and compromise.
If you don't want to do all that soul-searching, you can go ahead and try to find a way to do whatever you want while still getting the security of a relationship. Most likely, if you read the Ethical Slut, the resulting conversation will hurt you partner and damage his trust in you. If that's the path you want to go down, listen to Thorzdad and ook.
posted by fuzz at 9:05 AM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
... Intercourse=no; heavy petting=yes ...
... I think I would be crazy jealous and insecure if he wanted to do the same ...
... I don't really want to "cheat" but if the opportunity presented itself, I probably would ...
... I don't really want to compromise ...
Your problem has nothing to do with sex. You just want to be free and have the world conform to your desires. In other words, you're having a perfectly normal, classic midlife crisis, and at the core of it is the fact that you're dissatisfied in your relationship.
You need to do the hard work of figuring out what's really causing that dissatisfaction. It's definitely not about making out with other people. Maybe you can't handle it anymore that he's away for 2 months at a time. Maybe you need something else in your life that gives you more of a sense of adventure. Maybe you don't feel 40, and you want to feel young and sexy again. Or maybe you just don't really want to be in this relationship, but you're afraid of losing the security it brings you.
Some of those problems will be for you to work on yourself. Other may concern your partner, and so then you have to do the hard work of broaching those issues with him and figuring out how to work together to make things change. That's what people mean when they say that relationships are about hard work and compromise.
If you don't want to do all that soul-searching, you can go ahead and try to find a way to do whatever you want while still getting the security of a relationship. Most likely, if you read the Ethical Slut, the resulting conversation will hurt you partner and damage his trust in you. If that's the path you want to go down, listen to Thorzdad and ook.
posted by fuzz at 9:05 AM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
If my wife told me this I would be devastated, then suspicious about what she had done already, and then very angry.
We all want things we can't have. This is one of them.
posted by LarryC at 9:05 AM on November 12, 2007 [10 favorites]
We all want things we can't have. This is one of them.
posted by LarryC at 9:05 AM on November 12, 2007 [10 favorites]
I've known many couples who've experimented this way, and virtually all of them divorced or broke up before too many years went by. I say 'virtually' because I do know one couple that seems to have made it work by carefully limiting the scope of such adventures
While it's your anecdote and your perspective, I'd like to helpfully point out that couples and marriages break up all the time for lots of reasons. Often when people don't know what else to try, they seek attention from others outside their relationship. That makes their experimentation the product of an unsatisfying relationship instead of a secure, sexually healthy one. Anecdotes like this tend to simply reinforce the cultural response to sexual desire that I mentioned above, perhaps falsely. Though that other couple certainly sounds interesting. I wonder how THEY'D answer this question!
posted by hermitosis at 9:07 AM on November 12, 2007
While it's your anecdote and your perspective, I'd like to helpfully point out that couples and marriages break up all the time for lots of reasons. Often when people don't know what else to try, they seek attention from others outside their relationship. That makes their experimentation the product of an unsatisfying relationship instead of a secure, sexually healthy one. Anecdotes like this tend to simply reinforce the cultural response to sexual desire that I mentioned above, perhaps falsely. Though that other couple certainly sounds interesting. I wonder how THEY'D answer this question!
posted by hermitosis at 9:07 AM on November 12, 2007
You've been thinking about this and have already decided what you want to do and that you don't want to comprise. Yet your BF doesn't know this and if you do bring it up you guys are going to be on very unequal footing. He'll probably be reeling form this, wondering what the hell is going on and what he's done wrong, meanwhile you're busy mentally tapping your foot, saying "Hurry up and agree to this". That's a receipe for disaster.
Sit down with yourself and decide if you really want this relationship or whether you're just looking for a way to sabotage it so you can get the affection you desire. The bottom line here is that you're lonely, for understandable reasons, but the fact that you've gone and made up your mind how your relationship is going to be, without talking to your BF isn't fair to him or the relationship if you really want to keep it. You two need to have a good long talk and you need to go into that discussion knowing that he will need time to think and that he has every right to angry or hurt.
Finally your real issue seems to be this:
I love touching and being touched, and I want more of it in my life.
Yet wit your work schedules, you're often left alone for long periods. Maybe one of you needs to comprise on their job.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:15 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
Sit down with yourself and decide if you really want this relationship or whether you're just looking for a way to sabotage it so you can get the affection you desire. The bottom line here is that you're lonely, for understandable reasons, but the fact that you've gone and made up your mind how your relationship is going to be, without talking to your BF isn't fair to him or the relationship if you really want to keep it. You two need to have a good long talk and you need to go into that discussion knowing that he will need time to think and that he has every right to angry or hurt.
Finally your real issue seems to be this:
I love touching and being touched, and I want more of it in my life.
Yet wit your work schedules, you're often left alone for long periods. Maybe one of you needs to comprise on their job.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:15 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: It would only work if you were OK with it going both ways. You're not, so it won't. I second hermitosis's suggestion of The Ethical Slut. It has a great chapter on jealousy in these types of relationships.
Some people do make out with other people, but it's after talking with their partners and coming upon a mutual agreement. I can't testify to how well this works, though. It's not my thing, and though it's failed miserably with the people I know who've tried it my sample's drawn entirely from college kids, who don't tend to have terribly stable relationships anyway.
posted by Anonymous at 9:29 AM on November 12, 2007
Some people do make out with other people, but it's after talking with their partners and coming upon a mutual agreement. I can't testify to how well this works, though. It's not my thing, and though it's failed miserably with the people I know who've tried it my sample's drawn entirely from college kids, who don't tend to have terribly stable relationships anyway.
posted by Anonymous at 9:29 AM on November 12, 2007
I think I would be crazy jealous and insecure if he wanted to do the same. I know it isn't "fair"
Damn skippy it's not fair. You can have a healthy open relationship (though it takes a lot of hard work, maturity, good communication and a solid foundation of trust) but there's no way you can have one based on a double standard. No offense, but bluntly - I feel you are being selfish here. You want to have your Kate and Edith too, so to speak.
Perhaps this wanting to "just make out, honest!" with other men is masking some deep discontent with your relationship or the status quo of your life in general, and your relationship is bearing the brunt of it. Are you happy with your relationship being long-distance, or do you long for something closer? It sounds like the latter, to me, and you might want to reconsider either the "long-distance" part or the "relationship" part. Can one or both of you rearrange your jobs? Or find other work so you can spend more time together?
Or do you want to break up and find someone new but in the meantime keep this guy around for security? If you want to break up, do yourself and your man a favor and make a clean break - it's kinder. Maybe you can't compromise on the job front, and what you need to do is break up nice and cleanly now - no passive-aggressive fooling around so he is pushed into breaking up with you. Then you can find someone else who lives closer, or has a less demanding career and can travel with you.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:35 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
Damn skippy it's not fair. You can have a healthy open relationship (though it takes a lot of hard work, maturity, good communication and a solid foundation of trust) but there's no way you can have one based on a double standard. No offense, but bluntly - I feel you are being selfish here. You want to have your Kate and Edith too, so to speak.
Perhaps this wanting to "just make out, honest!" with other men is masking some deep discontent with your relationship or the status quo of your life in general, and your relationship is bearing the brunt of it. Are you happy with your relationship being long-distance, or do you long for something closer? It sounds like the latter, to me, and you might want to reconsider either the "long-distance" part or the "relationship" part. Can one or both of you rearrange your jobs? Or find other work so you can spend more time together?
Or do you want to break up and find someone new but in the meantime keep this guy around for security? If you want to break up, do yourself and your man a favor and make a clean break - it's kinder. Maybe you can't compromise on the job front, and what you need to do is break up nice and cleanly now - no passive-aggressive fooling around so he is pushed into breaking up with you. Then you can find someone else who lives closer, or has a less demanding career and can travel with you.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:35 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
The only way I've seen "one-sided" openness work in a relationship is when a) wife wants to make out with other women and b) husband/boyfriend gets to watch.
posted by desuetude at 9:39 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by desuetude at 9:39 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
This is a bad idea. Besides the fact that you're being unfair to your partner (I can have it, but you...you can't) which other people have nicely covered, and besides the fact that your partner is unlikely to agree (because you can have it, and he can't).... Where in hell do you think you're going to find this mythical pool of men who would like to make out without it ever leading to some kind of in-and-out sex? (Plz share.)
posted by anaelith at 9:43 AM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
posted by anaelith at 9:43 AM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
You just want to be free and have the world conform to your desires. In other words, you're having a perfectly normal, classic midlife crisis, and at the core of it is the fact that you're dissatisfied in your relationship.
I kind of follow and agree with that, up to "at the core of it is the fact that you're dissatisfied in your relationship."
Huh? That's a pretty big leap from "midlife crisis" to "dissatisfied in your relationship".
I'm in my mid-40s, married 23 years. There have been several times when we have drifted apart and didn't enjoy the same level of easy intamacy we would like, for various reasons. That didn't mean we were dissatisfied with our relationship or each other; it just meant that our life situations didn't always let us do what we wanted. Changing things in the relationship weren't the answer; working through a particular phase of life was.
Be very, very careful about changing the basic assumptions the relationship is founded on, even if they are informal and implicit. Enjoy your feelings for what they are: fantasy. Anyone who has half a brain and any kind of a sex drive will fantasize from time to time. That much is normal. Even bringing some of that into the bedroom with your partner is normal; sharing fantasies can strengthen the bonds of your relationship. But acting them out with other people will surely weaken those bonds.
posted by Doohickie at 9:45 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
I kind of follow and agree with that, up to "at the core of it is the fact that you're dissatisfied in your relationship."
Huh? That's a pretty big leap from "midlife crisis" to "dissatisfied in your relationship".
I'm in my mid-40s, married 23 years. There have been several times when we have drifted apart and didn't enjoy the same level of easy intamacy we would like, for various reasons. That didn't mean we were dissatisfied with our relationship or each other; it just meant that our life situations didn't always let us do what we wanted. Changing things in the relationship weren't the answer; working through a particular phase of life was.
Be very, very careful about changing the basic assumptions the relationship is founded on, even if they are informal and implicit. Enjoy your feelings for what they are: fantasy. Anyone who has half a brain and any kind of a sex drive will fantasize from time to time. That much is normal. Even bringing some of that into the bedroom with your partner is normal; sharing fantasies can strengthen the bonds of your relationship. But acting them out with other people will surely weaken those bonds.
posted by Doohickie at 9:45 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
If your answer to him would be "no," then that should be your answer for yourself. Door's gotta swing both ways, or the relationship is not a relationship.
This is not true. This is an arbitrary rule that may not have any relevance to the poster's partner.
The original poster has three pretty clear choices. She can forget the idea entirely and repress her urges. She can talk to her partner and find out what's acceptable to him. Or she can cheat.
if anyone out there has figured out a way to make a situation like this work?
People have done all three of the above. Since you had to ask, you need to talk to your partner about this. Approach it delicately; sometimes even the conversation can be a relationship-ender. But I think that once you find out what your partner really thinks about this, your next step will be much clearer.
posted by ikkyu2 at 9:46 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
This is not true. This is an arbitrary rule that may not have any relevance to the poster's partner.
The original poster has three pretty clear choices. She can forget the idea entirely and repress her urges. She can talk to her partner and find out what's acceptable to him. Or she can cheat.
if anyone out there has figured out a way to make a situation like this work?
People have done all three of the above. Since you had to ask, you need to talk to your partner about this. Approach it delicately; sometimes even the conversation can be a relationship-ender. But I think that once you find out what your partner really thinks about this, your next step will be much clearer.
posted by ikkyu2 at 9:46 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
You're trying to justify a way to get to hook up with other people without having to have an awkward conversation with your partner about it.
That's not okay.
However you and your partner want to organize the boundaries of your relationship is totally fine. But you have to discuss it with each other. If you just go out and do whatever you want, knowing that you're crossing lines he thinks you've agreed upon, that's cheating, whether you're "just" making out or not.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 9:49 AM on November 12, 2007
That's not okay.
However you and your partner want to organize the boundaries of your relationship is totally fine. But you have to discuss it with each other. If you just go out and do whatever you want, knowing that you're crossing lines he thinks you've agreed upon, that's cheating, whether you're "just" making out or not.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 9:49 AM on November 12, 2007
Well, I don't really want to compromise and am wondering if anyone out there has figured out a way to make a situation like this work?
Well, maybe little by little. I have gotten my partner to be more accepting of my frank nature with regard to sexual matters, frequent habitation of a social spotlight, and generally affectionate demeanor among my friends. These things together, you see, had often been read by him as flirtacious, and even by others as such, I must assume. However, I have never in our relationship wanted to have the kind of connection that I have with him with another person. Trust is there, and we both know the boundaries set. Although this is a littler allowance than making out with other people, it's working because we can talk about where it comes from, what it means, how it feels, and what purpose it serves for me and for us. Of course there are things you need in life that you're "not getting" from this relationship. Many people cannot subsist in a universe of two. Being able to feel comfortable with this very moderately fringey behavior (we're not talking lapdances, more like a penchant for double entendres) has freed me up to express myself more to my partner as a result, and forced me to assess what kind of variety or attention I actually want.
However, your specific desire: making out with unnamed others, seems specific to the point of unbelievable convenience. What do you really want? Attention from myriad men? Sexual novelty? Break this down to its core components and then you'll be able to allocate part of the solution to changes you can make within your relationship, and changes that have to come from yourself.
There's more than one way to get your needs met, but you're never going to be as satisfied by this fantasy of treating men like objects to be sampled as you are by interacting with a creative and educated partner, versed in your turn-ons and needs. So, I suggest broaching the conversation. I suggest confessing that your eye is roaming, or your imagination, and asking for help. Perhaps you'll find that you want more than one partner, and your current lover simply can't change up his routine enough to ever keep your interest, but you still do not ever want to share a partner with another. Good luck, this makes you a serial monogamist.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:55 AM on November 12, 2007
Well, maybe little by little. I have gotten my partner to be more accepting of my frank nature with regard to sexual matters, frequent habitation of a social spotlight, and generally affectionate demeanor among my friends. These things together, you see, had often been read by him as flirtacious, and even by others as such, I must assume. However, I have never in our relationship wanted to have the kind of connection that I have with him with another person. Trust is there, and we both know the boundaries set. Although this is a littler allowance than making out with other people, it's working because we can talk about where it comes from, what it means, how it feels, and what purpose it serves for me and for us. Of course there are things you need in life that you're "not getting" from this relationship. Many people cannot subsist in a universe of two. Being able to feel comfortable with this very moderately fringey behavior (we're not talking lapdances, more like a penchant for double entendres) has freed me up to express myself more to my partner as a result, and forced me to assess what kind of variety or attention I actually want.
However, your specific desire: making out with unnamed others, seems specific to the point of unbelievable convenience. What do you really want? Attention from myriad men? Sexual novelty? Break this down to its core components and then you'll be able to allocate part of the solution to changes you can make within your relationship, and changes that have to come from yourself.
There's more than one way to get your needs met, but you're never going to be as satisfied by this fantasy of treating men like objects to be sampled as you are by interacting with a creative and educated partner, versed in your turn-ons and needs. So, I suggest broaching the conversation. I suggest confessing that your eye is roaming, or your imagination, and asking for help. Perhaps you'll find that you want more than one partner, and your current lover simply can't change up his routine enough to ever keep your interest, but you still do not ever want to share a partner with another. Good luck, this makes you a serial monogamist.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:55 AM on November 12, 2007
nor do I really want these enounters to really "mean" anything beyond experiencing the simple joy of healthy human sensuality
Unfortunately, you don't get to decide what they mean for other people. Plus, once you start the bus it is a lot harder to stop it. You are at a high risk of going somewhere you didn't intend. I think that is something that should be foremost in your mind. I am certain it will be foremost in your partner's mind.
Understanding the very real risks to your relationship here is very important.
In the type of serial monogamy you appear to be practicing, you choose to forego this type of activity for the sake of maintaining something you want to keep. If you do not forego the activity, you are making it less likely that you will maintain what you have now. This is much less "morality" and a lot more of "tends to happen when you do this."
posted by Ironmouth at 9:55 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, you don't get to decide what they mean for other people. Plus, once you start the bus it is a lot harder to stop it. You are at a high risk of going somewhere you didn't intend. I think that is something that should be foremost in your mind. I am certain it will be foremost in your partner's mind.
Understanding the very real risks to your relationship here is very important.
In the type of serial monogamy you appear to be practicing, you choose to forego this type of activity for the sake of maintaining something you want to keep. If you do not forego the activity, you are making it less likely that you will maintain what you have now. This is much less "morality" and a lot more of "tends to happen when you do this."
posted by Ironmouth at 9:55 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Well, it's gotta be equatable. Perhaps if the both of you agreed that during those two months outside liaisons where allowed but could not be discussed the other ten months of the year?
But, you have just upped the likelihood the relationship is going to end, either by him feeling hurt by you wanting to dramatically changing the rules of a 10 year relationship, or, one of you finding a liaison that you want to keep.
Then again perhaps it will work, perhaps your partner is having the same thoughts, perhaps he is already engaging in them during that 2 month absence.
Though, if my wife came to me (we've been married 14 years) and seriously wanted this it would be a huge blow to the relationship.
You are in risky territory, and no matter what can not insist that you get extra benefits he does not.
(yeah, pretending that heavy petting and making out will not lead to sex is probably delusional, and unfair to whomever you are engaging in it with)
posted by edgeways at 10:03 AM on November 12, 2007
But, you have just upped the likelihood the relationship is going to end, either by him feeling hurt by you wanting to dramatically changing the rules of a 10 year relationship, or, one of you finding a liaison that you want to keep.
Then again perhaps it will work, perhaps your partner is having the same thoughts, perhaps he is already engaging in them during that 2 month absence.
Though, if my wife came to me (we've been married 14 years) and seriously wanted this it would be a huge blow to the relationship.
You are in risky territory, and no matter what can not insist that you get extra benefits he does not.
(yeah, pretending that heavy petting and making out will not lead to sex is probably delusional, and unfair to whomever you are engaging in it with)
posted by edgeways at 10:03 AM on November 12, 2007
Perhaps you might try thinking about your "partner" rather yourself. Any worthwhile relationship starts with just that. Putting the other persons needs before yourself. Instead of asking the question here, with strangers, you should be talking with the person with whom it really matters.
You admit yourself that you would be upset if the roles were reversed so how could you even consider an action as you describe.
Consider your actions carefully because the consequences will most certainly be more far reaching than the "illusion" of satisfaction you are reaching for.
posted by DerekTheGeek at 10:26 AM on November 12, 2007
You admit yourself that you would be upset if the roles were reversed so how could you even consider an action as you describe.
Consider your actions carefully because the consequences will most certainly be more far reaching than the "illusion" of satisfaction you are reaching for.
posted by DerekTheGeek at 10:26 AM on November 12, 2007
IME, negotiating an agreement with your partner where you get to make out with other guys while he's out of town is totally doable.
You might even be able to figure out a deal where you get to and he doesn't. Perfect symmetry is not a requirement in poly -- in fact I would say expecting both partners to have identical boundaries and needs is a big mistake.
What doesn't sound kosher is for you to decide a priori that your jealous feelings place even talking about the possibility of his doing the same totally off the table.
You are asking him to consider and potentially tolerate and transcend some very uncomfortable feelings. The least you can do is be willing to do the same.
If you want a negotiated open relationship (as opposed to just cheating), you both need to be willing to change the way you look at jealousy.
Instead of the end of the conversation, in poly relationships, jealous feelings signal the beginning of a much deeper self-examination and dialogue.
What exactly freaks you out about the idea of your partner making out with other women? What fear/hurt/insecurity of yours does that scenario activate? What needs do you have for reassurance, validation, security, etc. that your partner can meet -- and which do you need to meet for yourself?
If you're not willing to ask yourself these questions, it's not fair to expect him to either.
posted by ottereroticist at 10:36 AM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
You might even be able to figure out a deal where you get to and he doesn't. Perfect symmetry is not a requirement in poly -- in fact I would say expecting both partners to have identical boundaries and needs is a big mistake.
What doesn't sound kosher is for you to decide a priori that your jealous feelings place even talking about the possibility of his doing the same totally off the table.
You are asking him to consider and potentially tolerate and transcend some very uncomfortable feelings. The least you can do is be willing to do the same.
If you want a negotiated open relationship (as opposed to just cheating), you both need to be willing to change the way you look at jealousy.
Instead of the end of the conversation, in poly relationships, jealous feelings signal the beginning of a much deeper self-examination and dialogue.
What exactly freaks you out about the idea of your partner making out with other women? What fear/hurt/insecurity of yours does that scenario activate? What needs do you have for reassurance, validation, security, etc. that your partner can meet -- and which do you need to meet for yourself?
If you're not willing to ask yourself these questions, it's not fair to expect him to either.
posted by ottereroticist at 10:36 AM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
(yeah, pretending that heavy petting and making out will not lead to sex is probably delusional, and unfair to whomever you are engaging in it with)
Seriously... once you're out of high school there's a new word for making out- foreplay.
posted by Kellydamnit at 10:43 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
Seriously... once you're out of high school there's a new word for making out- foreplay.
posted by Kellydamnit at 10:43 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
I know it isn't "fair"
I don't really want to "cheat"
The fact that you put these words in quotes makes me think that you're not taking them seriously. It really isn't fair if one person strays and the other doesn't. It would be cheating - unadorned, selfish cheating. With consequences. Just because it's not full-on sex doesn't make it any less dishonest to your relationship.
It sounds like your desires are getting the best of your rationale. You've still got some logic left, but you're trying to use it to justify what's not really justifiable. That's a slippery slope. If you haven't talked to your partner about it, don't do it. If your partner isn't ok with it, then it's not ok. If he is ok, then you're good to go. But please be honest with yourself about the consequences of all of these thoughts and any actions you might take. And please follow all of the good advice above to examine the health of your relationship.
posted by bassjump at 10:44 AM on November 12, 2007
I don't really want to "cheat"
The fact that you put these words in quotes makes me think that you're not taking them seriously. It really isn't fair if one person strays and the other doesn't. It would be cheating - unadorned, selfish cheating. With consequences. Just because it's not full-on sex doesn't make it any less dishonest to your relationship.
It sounds like your desires are getting the best of your rationale. You've still got some logic left, but you're trying to use it to justify what's not really justifiable. That's a slippery slope. If you haven't talked to your partner about it, don't do it. If your partner isn't ok with it, then it's not ok. If he is ok, then you're good to go. But please be honest with yourself about the consequences of all of these thoughts and any actions you might take. And please follow all of the good advice above to examine the health of your relationship.
posted by bassjump at 10:44 AM on November 12, 2007
Think about if even asking him about this would be worth it or too risky. It could potentially ruin the relationship even to ask. In that case, you'd get to make out with others all you wanted, but again, would it be worth it to you? That's the decision you have to make.
Long-term love and security vs. more regular gratification.
Sounds like a "safer" solution would be for one or both of you to attempt to be away less if that is financially possible.
posted by fructose at 10:47 AM on November 12, 2007
Long-term love and security vs. more regular gratification.
Sounds like a "safer" solution would be for one or both of you to attempt to be away less if that is financially possible.
posted by fructose at 10:47 AM on November 12, 2007
Also, I agree with kellydammit in regards to making out. It might be hard to play make-out bandit for long as an adult unless you were up front that you only go as far as "heavy petting."
posted by fructose at 10:49 AM on November 12, 2007
posted by fructose at 10:49 AM on November 12, 2007
Think about if even asking him about this would be worth it or too risky. It could potentially ruin the relationship even to ask.
What a shitty relationship that would be, where you can't even bring up childish fantasies.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:50 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
What a shitty relationship that would be, where you can't even bring up childish fantasies.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:50 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
You sit him down and say that you are unhappy with the current state of affairs and tell him what you'd like to change. Ta da!
That's the answer to your question. However all your details around it seem to revolve more around that fact that you have a very specific idea of how things should change ( you get permission to do new things, his relationship job description doesn't alter ) and you expect he's not going to be okay with them.
I don't know in what way you think anyone else can help you with that. All relationships - romantic and otherwise - involve individuals working out arrangements they can live with. As ikkyu2 says, those arrangements can be anything everyone agrees on. If you don't think he's going to go for these proposed changes then you either suck it up and live with things as they are, you break your agreement with him and hope you don't get caught, or you such it up and live with things the way he proposes they change to.
If you honestly can't be happy other than in a relationship where you're free to smooch others and your partner touches nobody then you then quit jerking around and make it happen. You just have to accept that you may not be able to make it happen with your current partner.
posted by phearlez at 12:14 PM on November 12, 2007
That's the answer to your question. However all your details around it seem to revolve more around that fact that you have a very specific idea of how things should change ( you get permission to do new things, his relationship job description doesn't alter ) and you expect he's not going to be okay with them.
I don't know in what way you think anyone else can help you with that. All relationships - romantic and otherwise - involve individuals working out arrangements they can live with. As ikkyu2 says, those arrangements can be anything everyone agrees on. If you don't think he's going to go for these proposed changes then you either suck it up and live with things as they are, you break your agreement with him and hope you don't get caught, or you such it up and live with things the way he proposes they change to.
If you honestly can't be happy other than in a relationship where you're free to smooch others and your partner touches nobody then you then quit jerking around and make it happen. You just have to accept that you may not be able to make it happen with your current partner.
posted by phearlez at 12:14 PM on November 12, 2007
1. You want to feel a physical connection with others
2. The idea of your partner doing the same makes you crazy insecure and jealous.
Are you getting enough affection from him? Is it that it would make you insecure if he gave any affection to other women, or is it that you are afraid he'll show more affection to them than he does to you?
posted by happyturtle at 12:25 PM on November 12, 2007
2. The idea of your partner doing the same makes you crazy insecure and jealous.
Are you getting enough affection from him? Is it that it would make you insecure if he gave any affection to other women, or is it that you are afraid he'll show more affection to them than he does to you?
posted by happyturtle at 12:25 PM on November 12, 2007
Your question made me think of Cuddle Parties, which are not really sexual but give one the chance to feel the touch of other humans. This might be a gentle starting point if you talk to your partner about your desires and he is a little receptive.
It has to go both ways, though, or at least involve him in a way he feels he is comfortable.
posted by sian at 12:38 PM on November 12, 2007
It has to go both ways, though, or at least involve him in a way he feels he is comfortable.
posted by sian at 12:38 PM on November 12, 2007
Ambrosia Voyeur- she isn't just talking "childish fantasy," she wants to seriously pursue it. I think a lot of people would be disappointed if their SO said they wanted to "make-out" with others. And I don't think those people consider their relationships "shitty," since they assume it's a mutual feeling.
posted by fructose at 12:44 PM on November 12, 2007
posted by fructose at 12:44 PM on November 12, 2007
The other problem: we spend quite a bit of time apart (2 months at a time, a couple of times a year) and on separate continents (due to our work situation)
I will reiterate that this is something that the OP ought to seriously examine. Making out with other men aside, is this a situation that is really workable in the long term, for the OP and her s/o?
Some people can handle relationships with lots of separations; they even revel in it. I know a woman whose husband has to travel a lot for business and is frequently away a week or more at a time. She actually loves it because it gives her room to indulge her introverted hobbies (reading, gardening) and spend time with her girlfriends. And her husband, so far as she and everyone knows, is trustworthy.
This woman's quite the INTP/bookish loner type, however, and if you're more social and/or crave more one-on-one quality time with your s/o, a long-distance relationship or one with lots of absences might not work for you. This is what you need to sit down and really think about, and have a heart-to-heart with your s/o. Can either of you do something about the work situation that is coming between you? Change jobs, even, if this relationship is very important to you? TANSTAAFL.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 12:58 PM on November 12, 2007
I will reiterate that this is something that the OP ought to seriously examine. Making out with other men aside, is this a situation that is really workable in the long term, for the OP and her s/o?
Some people can handle relationships with lots of separations; they even revel in it. I know a woman whose husband has to travel a lot for business and is frequently away a week or more at a time. She actually loves it because it gives her room to indulge her introverted hobbies (reading, gardening) and spend time with her girlfriends. And her husband, so far as she and everyone knows, is trustworthy.
This woman's quite the INTP/bookish loner type, however, and if you're more social and/or crave more one-on-one quality time with your s/o, a long-distance relationship or one with lots of absences might not work for you. This is what you need to sit down and really think about, and have a heart-to-heart with your s/o. Can either of you do something about the work situation that is coming between you? Change jobs, even, if this relationship is very important to you? TANSTAAFL.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 12:58 PM on November 12, 2007
The men you are looking for do not exist. If he's attracted enough to you to "make out," he's going to want to have sex.
You're proposing a fantasy and nothing more. Enjoy the fantasy.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 1:34 PM on November 12, 2007
You're proposing a fantasy and nothing more. Enjoy the fantasy.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 1:34 PM on November 12, 2007
So…pardner, how do you feel about wearing the horns?
(I understand the desire for human contact, especially during periods where you're alienated from your partner—long distance relationships suck—but realize that you're dabbling in an area that's fraught with drama and that can lead to a radical reinterpretation of your relationship for good or ill).
posted by klangklangston at 1:37 PM on November 12, 2007
(I understand the desire for human contact, especially during periods where you're alienated from your partner—long distance relationships suck—but realize that you're dabbling in an area that's fraught with drama and that can lead to a radical reinterpretation of your relationship for good or ill).
posted by klangklangston at 1:37 PM on November 12, 2007
You're the most important person in your relationship. What do you want?
posted by Furious Fitness at 2:14 PM on November 12, 2007
posted by Furious Fitness at 2:14 PM on November 12, 2007
The odds that your partner will agree to exactly what you want are, yeah, really really low.
But the odds are good that there will be something that meets both his needs and yours.
Maybe you can work out some kind of nonmonogamy you're both okay with. Maybe you can find a way of getting each other off while you're on different continents. Maybe you'll discover that nonsexual touches are enough for you and start spending more time with huggier friends, or he'll buy you a gift card for a dozen massages the next time he leaves town. Maybe there will be something flirty/sensual but nonsexual that he doesn't mind you enjoying without him. (Social dancing, say? Karaoke torch songs? Lewd double entendres?) Maybe he never realized how much you like anticipation, and knowing that fact will help him give you better sex when he is around. Maybe y'all will decide together to quit sacrificing your relationship for your careers.
Just talk to him and accept that the conversation won't go the way you planned. The important ones never do. They're worth having anyway.
posted by nebulawindphone at 2:22 PM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
But the odds are good that there will be something that meets both his needs and yours.
Maybe you can work out some kind of nonmonogamy you're both okay with. Maybe you can find a way of getting each other off while you're on different continents. Maybe you'll discover that nonsexual touches are enough for you and start spending more time with huggier friends, or he'll buy you a gift card for a dozen massages the next time he leaves town. Maybe there will be something flirty/sensual but nonsexual that he doesn't mind you enjoying without him. (Social dancing, say? Karaoke torch songs? Lewd double entendres?) Maybe he never realized how much you like anticipation, and knowing that fact will help him give you better sex when he is around. Maybe y'all will decide together to quit sacrificing your relationship for your careers.
Just talk to him and accept that the conversation won't go the way you planned. The important ones never do. They're worth having anyway.
posted by nebulawindphone at 2:22 PM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
You could maybe suggest in the times when you're apart for months the relationship becomes more open. But honestly you cant want what u want and not be prepared to allow him to do the same. thats just wrong.
posted by browolf at 4:41 PM on November 12, 2007
posted by browolf at 4:41 PM on November 12, 2007
I used to do this in my early twenties -- I unilaterally decided that just about anything short of penetration wasn't cheating, and so my girlfriend didn't need to be told. The up-side was that I had lots of fun with different women. The downside was that I always felt kind of guilty about it, and when she did find out it was not a pretty experience. Well, that and as was said above, "making out" is really "foreplay," and sometimes foreplay turns into regular old humping, and then you really are cheating, no matter what kind of justification you are using for the foreplay part.
So on the one hand if you do decide to institute a policy whereby you get to snog whomever you want, with no kissing and telling, you will have lots of company -- lots and lots of other people also have contradictory sexual boundaries and will transgress social mores in order to have more fun. But on the other hand, it seems like kind of a sorry way to get the physical contact you are obviously craving. There are nicer ways to get the same result, like having a really cuddly boyfriend who is around 12 months of the year, or making a deal with him about who you can kiss, under what circumstances, and with what limitations. And there are non-sexual ways to get physical contact, like massage and jui-jitsu.
I guess I'm not entirely clear on what you mean by [I] am wondering if anyone out there has figured out a way to make a situation like this work? Do you mean, do people have relationships where one person is allowed to stray and the other is not? Or do you mean, can you have forbidden makeout sessions and never get caught? Either way, the answer is clearly "yes" -- people do both, all the time. It is up to you, though, to find the answer that makes you feel good as a person, and gives you the contact you need. There are lots of options, and these things do not need to be completely binary.
posted by Forktine at 5:22 PM on November 12, 2007
So on the one hand if you do decide to institute a policy whereby you get to snog whomever you want, with no kissing and telling, you will have lots of company -- lots and lots of other people also have contradictory sexual boundaries and will transgress social mores in order to have more fun. But on the other hand, it seems like kind of a sorry way to get the physical contact you are obviously craving. There are nicer ways to get the same result, like having a really cuddly boyfriend who is around 12 months of the year, or making a deal with him about who you can kiss, under what circumstances, and with what limitations. And there are non-sexual ways to get physical contact, like massage and jui-jitsu.
I guess I'm not entirely clear on what you mean by [I] am wondering if anyone out there has figured out a way to make a situation like this work? Do you mean, do people have relationships where one person is allowed to stray and the other is not? Or do you mean, can you have forbidden makeout sessions and never get caught? Either way, the answer is clearly "yes" -- people do both, all the time. It is up to you, though, to find the answer that makes you feel good as a person, and gives you the contact you need. There are lots of options, and these things do not need to be completely binary.
posted by Forktine at 5:22 PM on November 12, 2007
This is really very simple. If you want to preserve the relationship you're in, don't do it. Otherwise, break up with him and move on.
posted by HuronBob at 5:50 PM on November 12, 2007
posted by HuronBob at 5:50 PM on November 12, 2007
Everyone on this planet lives once, dies once.
That's all you get.
In that very brief interval that you are alive, adult, mobile, and can exercise your free will, you get to choose how you live. Some folks may tell you otherwise, but YOU are 100% in charge.
Any choice you make involves risk. Some choices will kill you, in fact. Life is not generally risk free.
Few people take control of their lives; most live the allow to be controlled by society, institutions, superstitions, parents, preachers, various dispensers of guilt.
Join the ranks of those who are in control. Find what you want. Go for it. Rejoice if you are successful. Howl with pain and despair if you aren't. Try not to hurt anyone if you can avoid it.
"Twenty years from now, you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than the things you did...", per Mark Twain.
Safety is a hazard to a well lived life, IMO.
That said, the only real infidelity is dishonestty, IMO. Do whatever you want, as long as everyone is in on the setup.
Good luck. I hope it works out well.
posted by FauxScot at 6:14 PM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
That's all you get.
In that very brief interval that you are alive, adult, mobile, and can exercise your free will, you get to choose how you live. Some folks may tell you otherwise, but YOU are 100% in charge.
Any choice you make involves risk. Some choices will kill you, in fact. Life is not generally risk free.
Few people take control of their lives; most live the allow to be controlled by society, institutions, superstitions, parents, preachers, various dispensers of guilt.
Join the ranks of those who are in control. Find what you want. Go for it. Rejoice if you are successful. Howl with pain and despair if you aren't. Try not to hurt anyone if you can avoid it.
"Twenty years from now, you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than the things you did...", per Mark Twain.
Safety is a hazard to a well lived life, IMO.
That said, the only real infidelity is dishonestty, IMO. Do whatever you want, as long as everyone is in on the setup.
Good luck. I hope it works out well.
posted by FauxScot at 6:14 PM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
I don't think this is very simple, and I don't think the OP is a "headcase." (Nice namecalling, BTW. Very helpful.) I think this is an incredibly complex situation, but most people find it easier to not confront the basic human desires that society tells us are bad. I had this very conversation with several of my coupled-off friends this weekend, and every single person admitted to having the same feelings, at one point or another, as the OP. And, all admitted that if they could've figured out a way to do it, they would've wanted exactly what she wants (or if their partners indulged in the same types of behavior, they wouldn't really want to know too much about it.) But because the Moral Majority is still clearly in control of our world, it just seemed easier for everyone to repress those feelings, or, periodically get super wasted and get borderline inappropriately handsy with friends, then ignore that it happened.
It's not simple. When you're in a long-term relationship, you can get bored, disinterested, want to feel sexier, desired, appreciated, stimulated, whatever -- without wanting to leave your partner, especially if you are best friends. Sometimes it has nothing to do with the partner at all -- I mean, with all the billions of people in the world, why are we restricted to having to get all of these types of needs met by ONE person? You can see and be around other people that it would just feel good to touch, and connect with physically. It doesn't mean you want to marry them, but it also doesn't mean you're just using them. I confront this in my own LT relationship, and I don't know what to do about it either so I am following this thread closely.
The desire for sensuality and touching is natural, but it seems like it's been made completely taboo outside of the confines of a monogamous relationship. I don't get that. I also don't understand how anyone in this thread can actually say that they would be appalled (I'm paraphrasing) if their partner told them they have wanted to make out with other people. Doesn't this go through everyone's minds at one point or another? I can see where your wish to not rock your relationship boat can help keep those desires at just that level, desire -not- action, but it seems disingenous at best for people to state that what the OP is trying to work through is somehow crazy. I think she's just being honest (which doesn't necessarily equal right, but still.) And for the record, I have had to deal with infidelity myself, which is, yes, a complete blow and I'm still not over it. But that is exactly why I think this is such a complex issue: even though my partner's being unfaithful to me was very painful, I understood why it happened, and I can STILL understand where the OP is coming from. As someone said above, this is not a binary issue. Nor is it helpful to the OP to act as though it is.
posted by hapax_legomenon at 6:44 PM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
It's not simple. When you're in a long-term relationship, you can get bored, disinterested, want to feel sexier, desired, appreciated, stimulated, whatever -- without wanting to leave your partner, especially if you are best friends. Sometimes it has nothing to do with the partner at all -- I mean, with all the billions of people in the world, why are we restricted to having to get all of these types of needs met by ONE person? You can see and be around other people that it would just feel good to touch, and connect with physically. It doesn't mean you want to marry them, but it also doesn't mean you're just using them. I confront this in my own LT relationship, and I don't know what to do about it either so I am following this thread closely.
The desire for sensuality and touching is natural, but it seems like it's been made completely taboo outside of the confines of a monogamous relationship. I don't get that. I also don't understand how anyone in this thread can actually say that they would be appalled (I'm paraphrasing) if their partner told them they have wanted to make out with other people. Doesn't this go through everyone's minds at one point or another? I can see where your wish to not rock your relationship boat can help keep those desires at just that level, desire -not- action, but it seems disingenous at best for people to state that what the OP is trying to work through is somehow crazy. I think she's just being honest (which doesn't necessarily equal right, but still.) And for the record, I have had to deal with infidelity myself, which is, yes, a complete blow and I'm still not over it. But that is exactly why I think this is such a complex issue: even though my partner's being unfaithful to me was very painful, I understood why it happened, and I can STILL understand where the OP is coming from. As someone said above, this is not a binary issue. Nor is it helpful to the OP to act as though it is.
posted by hapax_legomenon at 6:44 PM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
Well, personally I'm relieved to know I'm not the only 40-year-old who likes fantasy!
Monogamy can be really tough. Over time your mind wanders and your body wonders... it's normal. It's just what you do with it. If it's just kissing, close your eyes and IMAGINE you're kissing someone else. Totally easy and I'm sure your BF would be fine with it (you could ask him if you want), as long as he gets to be the one. Lots of people have said before, it's not where you get your appetite but where you eat that counts.
The other thing I think about is the one about "tools are an invention of humans too... should we throw those away?" Monogamy miught have its harder times but it's SO worth it. It's a real pleasure to know that you have shared so much with your mate. I think most of us get a lot of strength from being that central to another person. But it's not always easy, just usually.
I think you're just poking around here, and I think that's healthy! It's amazing how easy it can be to get a lecture when you're looking for a discussion! ;)
posted by MiffyCLB at 6:47 PM on November 12, 2007
Monogamy can be really tough. Over time your mind wanders and your body wonders... it's normal. It's just what you do with it. If it's just kissing, close your eyes and IMAGINE you're kissing someone else. Totally easy and I'm sure your BF would be fine with it (you could ask him if you want), as long as he gets to be the one. Lots of people have said before, it's not where you get your appetite but where you eat that counts.
The other thing I think about is the one about "tools are an invention of humans too... should we throw those away?" Monogamy miught have its harder times but it's SO worth it. It's a real pleasure to know that you have shared so much with your mate. I think most of us get a lot of strength from being that central to another person. But it's not always easy, just usually.
I think you're just poking around here, and I think that's healthy! It's amazing how easy it can be to get a lecture when you're looking for a discussion! ;)
posted by MiffyCLB at 6:47 PM on November 12, 2007
Well, personally I'm relieved to know I'm not the only 40-year-old who likes fantasy!
Yes, but the original poster didn't say she fantasized about this- she said she wanted to find a way to tell her partner she needed to be able to dryhump strangers, and he couldn't.
Big difference there. If someone I was seeing said he fantasized about other people, no big deal. If he said he wanted to be with other people, well, very big deal.
posted by Kellydamnit at 7:58 PM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Yes, but the original poster didn't say she fantasized about this- she said she wanted to find a way to tell her partner she needed to be able to dryhump strangers, and he couldn't.
Big difference there. If someone I was seeing said he fantasized about other people, no big deal. If he said he wanted to be with other people, well, very big deal.
posted by Kellydamnit at 7:58 PM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
This is an arbitrary rule that may not have any relevance to the poster's partner.
I understand that not all relationships are tit-for-tat in every specific facet, but something that you wish for yourself, something that relates to a fundamental facet of relationships (i.e., sexual fulfillment) and is a priori unacceptable for your partner to indulge in? I want it for me, but no goddamn way I'll even think about it for him? I wouldn't call warning someone away from that type of thinking arbitrary in the least. Pretty good rule of thumb in life in general is the question "How would I react if someone treated me this way?" If the answer is "I would be hurt and jealous and it could conceivably end our relationship," then it's not unreasonable to assume that the act in question is, to put it mildly, questionable.
Kant's categorical imperative, I suppose. Not everything that's good for you is necessarily good for your partner, but your demanding/requesting something from your partner that you would in no way reciprocate, were the tables turned, is on its face suspect in the extreme in an equal partnership.
The original poster has three pretty clear choices. She can forget the idea entirely and repress her urges. She can talk to her partner and find out what's acceptable to him. Or she can cheat.
I agree with this, and I'm sure the best thing to do initially is to talk to him about it, but I what I'm getting at is that she's about to ask something of him that has an extremely good chance of ending the relationship, and this is ultimately what she's looking for -- but what she's written tells me that what she really wants is to achieve this without the guilt of actually ending a decade-long relationship, or, more to the point, to get moral absolution from internet strangers who'll tell her it's okay for her to get her groove back, needs of her SO be damned..
posted by middleclasstool at 9:48 PM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
I understand that not all relationships are tit-for-tat in every specific facet, but something that you wish for yourself, something that relates to a fundamental facet of relationships (i.e., sexual fulfillment) and is a priori unacceptable for your partner to indulge in? I want it for me, but no goddamn way I'll even think about it for him? I wouldn't call warning someone away from that type of thinking arbitrary in the least. Pretty good rule of thumb in life in general is the question "How would I react if someone treated me this way?" If the answer is "I would be hurt and jealous and it could conceivably end our relationship," then it's not unreasonable to assume that the act in question is, to put it mildly, questionable.
Kant's categorical imperative, I suppose. Not everything that's good for you is necessarily good for your partner, but your demanding/requesting something from your partner that you would in no way reciprocate, were the tables turned, is on its face suspect in the extreme in an equal partnership.
The original poster has three pretty clear choices. She can forget the idea entirely and repress her urges. She can talk to her partner and find out what's acceptable to him. Or she can cheat.
I agree with this, and I'm sure the best thing to do initially is to talk to him about it, but I what I'm getting at is that she's about to ask something of him that has an extremely good chance of ending the relationship, and this is ultimately what she's looking for -- but what she's written tells me that what she really wants is to achieve this without the guilt of actually ending a decade-long relationship, or, more to the point, to get moral absolution from internet strangers who'll tell her it's okay for her to get her groove back, needs of her SO be damned..
posted by middleclasstool at 9:48 PM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
You're the most important person in your relationship.
That attitude right there is the kiss of death for any relationship. If your significant other isn't the most important person in the relationship (and he/she doesn't feel similarly toward you), the relationship is doomed to failure.
posted by Doohickie at 6:09 AM on November 13, 2007
That attitude right there is the kiss of death for any relationship. If your significant other isn't the most important person in the relationship (and he/she doesn't feel similarly toward you), the relationship is doomed to failure.
posted by Doohickie at 6:09 AM on November 13, 2007
The original poster has three pretty clear choices. She can forget the idea entirely and repress her urges. She can talk to her partner and find out what's acceptable to him. Or she can cheat.
Exactly. Wrong. "Repressing" urges isn't the only option here. Everyone of us has wanted to hook up with someone while with someone else. But just stuffing those feelings is a big part of the problem and the cause of so much heartache and "I can't beleive I cheated" moments.
Instead, it is best to acknowledge that one does have feelings about other people and also acknowledge that one is not required to act on them, no matter how powerful the momentary feeling of attraction is.
Accepting that the choice of monogamy is a deliberate limiting of our choices to enhance and strengthen our bond to a specific person is the most important thing we can do here. This is the choice that the poster made before. She may want to change that choice, which is fine, but she must realize that she has made that choice before moving to decide what she wants to do.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:18 AM on November 13, 2007
Exactly. Wrong. "Repressing" urges isn't the only option here. Everyone of us has wanted to hook up with someone while with someone else. But just stuffing those feelings is a big part of the problem and the cause of so much heartache and "I can't beleive I cheated" moments.
Instead, it is best to acknowledge that one does have feelings about other people and also acknowledge that one is not required to act on them, no matter how powerful the momentary feeling of attraction is.
Accepting that the choice of monogamy is a deliberate limiting of our choices to enhance and strengthen our bond to a specific person is the most important thing we can do here. This is the choice that the poster made before. She may want to change that choice, which is fine, but she must realize that she has made that choice before moving to decide what she wants to do.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:18 AM on November 13, 2007
Accepting that the choice of monogamy is a deliberate limiting of our choices to enhance and strengthen our bond to a specific person is the most important thing we can do here.
For many people, monogamy is not a deliberate choice -- it's the only relationship model they know.
Alternative relationship forms are surrounded with a veil of ignorance as well as scary messages about how swinging is icky, open relationships have been proven not to work, even talking about nonmonogamy is a huge threat to a relationship, etc. etc. etc. (see above).
This kind of brainwashing actually works against monogamy as a free choice and instead turns it into an imperative -- leaving cheating as the only alternative.
Only by freely considering the range of alternatives does monogamy become an actual choice.
posted by ottereroticist at 9:45 AM on November 13, 2007
For many people, monogamy is not a deliberate choice -- it's the only relationship model they know.
Alternative relationship forms are surrounded with a veil of ignorance as well as scary messages about how swinging is icky, open relationships have been proven not to work, even talking about nonmonogamy is a huge threat to a relationship, etc. etc. etc. (see above).
This kind of brainwashing actually works against monogamy as a free choice and instead turns it into an imperative -- leaving cheating as the only alternative.
Only by freely considering the range of alternatives does monogamy become an actual choice.
posted by ottereroticist at 9:45 AM on November 13, 2007
If your significant other isn't the most important person in the relationship (and he/she doesn't feel similarly toward you), the relationship is doomed to failure.
This is codependency in a nutshell. You can not guarantee another's happiness. You have to be responsible for your own, first and foremost.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:54 AM on November 13, 2007
This is codependency in a nutshell. You can not guarantee another's happiness. You have to be responsible for your own, first and foremost.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:54 AM on November 13, 2007
Sorry, AV, but I disagree. By putting my needs second to my wife's, and her doing likewise for me, we are very happy together. Yes, I know I can't guarantee her happiness, but knowing I'm doing what I can for her (and vice versa) works for me.
If you go into a relationship with a "me-first" attitude, it just won't last.
posted by Doohickie at 11:36 AM on November 13, 2007
If you go into a relationship with a "me-first" attitude, it just won't last.
posted by Doohickie at 11:36 AM on November 13, 2007
On an airplane, you put the oxygen mask on yourself before you help another. In a relationship, your basic needs must be met before you can help enrich your partner. This whole "I'll sacrifice anything for you, your needs are more important to me than mine" business is romantic, but impractical, as illustrated by countless cases if its abuse. There should be no imagined imbalance at all of who's more important than whom. We take care of ourselves, then one another.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:56 AM on November 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:56 AM on November 13, 2007 [1 favorite]
For many people, monogamy is not a deliberate choice -- it's the only relationship model they know.
'poly' propaganda notwithstanding, people are adults. They are not stupid. They are aware that they could agree to something else. It doesn't take some sort of super-philosopher to put two and two together and say "me and the wifey could agree to fool around on the side." The fact that they often do not agree to live a poly lifestyle isn't evidence that they were 'brainwashed' into choosing monogamy. They damn well know it is a deliberate choice. Saying otherwise doesn't make it so.
My point to the poster--whose question we are answering here--is that a frank acknowledgement of what it is that she agreed to is going to help guide her in dealing with her situation. It sounds like she really isn't looking for a poly situation at all, but permission to fuck around without consequence. There is no such thing. Maybe he's fine with her fooling around while he's gone and he agrees not to fool around, maybe not--but the relationship will not be the same afterwords. Perhaps they can deal with the changes, perhaps not. Perhaps the relationship will get better because of it, perhaps it won't. The relationship will not be the same however.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:20 PM on November 13, 2007
'poly' propaganda notwithstanding, people are adults. They are not stupid. They are aware that they could agree to something else. It doesn't take some sort of super-philosopher to put two and two together and say "me and the wifey could agree to fool around on the side." The fact that they often do not agree to live a poly lifestyle isn't evidence that they were 'brainwashed' into choosing monogamy. They damn well know it is a deliberate choice. Saying otherwise doesn't make it so.
My point to the poster--whose question we are answering here--is that a frank acknowledgement of what it is that she agreed to is going to help guide her in dealing with her situation. It sounds like she really isn't looking for a poly situation at all, but permission to fuck around without consequence. There is no such thing. Maybe he's fine with her fooling around while he's gone and he agrees not to fool around, maybe not--but the relationship will not be the same afterwords. Perhaps they can deal with the changes, perhaps not. Perhaps the relationship will get better because of it, perhaps it won't. The relationship will not be the same however.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:20 PM on November 13, 2007
This whole "I'll sacrifice anything for you, your needs are more important to me than mine" business is romantic, but impractical, as illustrated by countless cases if its abuse.
It's only impractical if not reciprocated. That said, I don't think we are that far apart really; if I were in a grossly inequitable relationship, you're right, abuse of the situation would be a problem.
posted by Doohickie at 4:27 PM on November 13, 2007
It's only impractical if not reciprocated. That said, I don't think we are that far apart really; if I were in a grossly inequitable relationship, you're right, abuse of the situation would be a problem.
posted by Doohickie at 4:27 PM on November 13, 2007
I know a bunch of people who are like this, but for "cuddling" and not necessarily making out. Literally, just lying around in someone's arms because it feels good - exchanging backrubs, running fingers through the hair, lots of hugging. Pretty benign stuff.
Oddly, these folks only seem to find an outlet in the groups where it's also okay to sleep with people besides your partner. It's odd. Cuddling is a whole different level than sex. But it seems that, culturally speaking, it's no easier to dance over the line for cuddling than it would be for sex.
The only avenue I can see, given my observations, is that you need to explore a healthy community with alternative values about fidelity and intimacy. You will find people that want to fuck others, and some that just want to cuddle or flirt. You need to learn more about how this can fit into a committed relationship (of which there are a great many in the communities I've observed) and learn what others may know about rules, complications, good practices and communication to keep everyone safe and happy.
I would really suggest that you begin considering yourself one of these alternative values folks and start exploring how they live, what they do, and above all how they make it all work out. I highly doubt that there is any combination of sentences you could speak to your loved one that will allow him to accept making out in his current worldview.
That's my point exactly: you need to work on worldviews. Find a couple you both like as friends, who have an open marriage. Hang out with them. Double date with them. Ponder your differences. Note that they are different than you but you still like them. This might open the mind a little bit and help your boyfriend see other realities as possible and not disgusting or some kind of failure or disease or malfunction.
Having a successful role model of what you would like to become is a great way to cross the distance. There's no way you can just tell him you want to make out with others. You have to go for a much, much more fundamental shift than that.
You also have to accept that he might not ultimately want to go there. People have different needs, and if yours are irreconcilably mismatched, you need to admit it for the good of both of you. None of us gets everything he wants. We all have to make some sacrifices and live within some boundaries. But if you can't live within your current boundaries and he won't change them, you're done.
posted by scarabic at 7:48 PM on November 14, 2007
Oddly, these folks only seem to find an outlet in the groups where it's also okay to sleep with people besides your partner. It's odd. Cuddling is a whole different level than sex. But it seems that, culturally speaking, it's no easier to dance over the line for cuddling than it would be for sex.
The only avenue I can see, given my observations, is that you need to explore a healthy community with alternative values about fidelity and intimacy. You will find people that want to fuck others, and some that just want to cuddle or flirt. You need to learn more about how this can fit into a committed relationship (of which there are a great many in the communities I've observed) and learn what others may know about rules, complications, good practices and communication to keep everyone safe and happy.
I would really suggest that you begin considering yourself one of these alternative values folks and start exploring how they live, what they do, and above all how they make it all work out. I highly doubt that there is any combination of sentences you could speak to your loved one that will allow him to accept making out in his current worldview.
That's my point exactly: you need to work on worldviews. Find a couple you both like as friends, who have an open marriage. Hang out with them. Double date with them. Ponder your differences. Note that they are different than you but you still like them. This might open the mind a little bit and help your boyfriend see other realities as possible and not disgusting or some kind of failure or disease or malfunction.
Having a successful role model of what you would like to become is a great way to cross the distance. There's no way you can just tell him you want to make out with others. You have to go for a much, much more fundamental shift than that.
You also have to accept that he might not ultimately want to go there. People have different needs, and if yours are irreconcilably mismatched, you need to admit it for the good of both of you. None of us gets everything he wants. We all have to make some sacrifices and live within some boundaries. But if you can't live within your current boundaries and he won't change them, you're done.
posted by scarabic at 7:48 PM on November 14, 2007
For many people, monogamy is not a deliberate choice -- it's the only relationship model they know.
'poly' propaganda notwithstanding, people are adults. They are not stupid. They are aware that they could agree to something else. It doesn't take some sort of super-philosopher to put two and two together and say "me and the wifey could agree to fool around on the side." The fact that they often do not agree to live a poly lifestyle isn't evidence that they were 'brainwashed' into choosing monogamy. They damn well know it is a deliberate choice. Saying otherwise doesn't make it so.
You make your point quite forcefully but you're only half right. Sure, people don't default to monogamy out of total ignorance of other relationship models. They do so because they live in a culture which values only monogamy. If you've never seen polygamy actually work for anyone, it's hard to think of "polygamy" as anything other than "adultery," which tends to suck for everyone.
For many people, monogamy is not a deliberate choice -- it's the only relationship model they know.
This statement is right two ways. Sure, monogamy isn't the only relationship model these folks have ever heard of, but in most hetero cases
1) it *is* the only one they have personal experience with
2) it *is* the only model they've been taught to value
So while you've spectacularly shot down the "oblivious to" case, you've also blown past the "wildly misunderstand" or "know only puritan pejoratives about" cases.
posted by scarabic at 8:14 PM on November 14, 2007
'poly' propaganda notwithstanding, people are adults. They are not stupid. They are aware that they could agree to something else. It doesn't take some sort of super-philosopher to put two and two together and say "me and the wifey could agree to fool around on the side." The fact that they often do not agree to live a poly lifestyle isn't evidence that they were 'brainwashed' into choosing monogamy. They damn well know it is a deliberate choice. Saying otherwise doesn't make it so.
You make your point quite forcefully but you're only half right. Sure, people don't default to monogamy out of total ignorance of other relationship models. They do so because they live in a culture which values only monogamy. If you've never seen polygamy actually work for anyone, it's hard to think of "polygamy" as anything other than "adultery," which tends to suck for everyone.
For many people, monogamy is not a deliberate choice -- it's the only relationship model they know.
This statement is right two ways. Sure, monogamy isn't the only relationship model these folks have ever heard of, but in most hetero cases
1) it *is* the only one they have personal experience with
2) it *is* the only model they've been taught to value
So while you've spectacularly shot down the "oblivious to" case, you've also blown past the "wildly misunderstand" or "know only puritan pejoratives about" cases.
posted by scarabic at 8:14 PM on November 14, 2007
1) it *is* the only one they have personal experience with
2) it *is* the only model they've been taught to value
I have to disagree. For many years people have looked the other way while their signficant others have carried on affairs. Often both partners do.
So while you've spectacularly shot down the "oblivious to" case, you've also blown past the "wildly misunderstand" or "know only puritan pejoratives about" cases.
The danger with this kind of reasoning is that it ends up describing those people you are thinking about as ignorant. Is that what you really want to say? Gee if they only knew better they'd agree with me? I find it often the case that people who follow belief systems not shared by very many other persons often fall into the trap of assuming that the others who do not make the choices they do do so out of ignorance.
Monogamy is always a deliberate choice, except for those on desert islands. In our society we are presented with many opportunities to have sex with people who are not the ones that we promised to only have sex with.
Something like monogamy defines its opposite by its very existence. To me, Poly is just a way of talking about it which tries to act like the human animal isn't the jealous controlling thing that it is when it comes to sex.
Poly is a perfectly legitimate lifestyle and moral choice. But I don't think it solves the problems it purports to.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:06 AM on November 16, 2007
2) it *is* the only model they've been taught to value
I have to disagree. For many years people have looked the other way while their signficant others have carried on affairs. Often both partners do.
So while you've spectacularly shot down the "oblivious to" case, you've also blown past the "wildly misunderstand" or "know only puritan pejoratives about" cases.
The danger with this kind of reasoning is that it ends up describing those people you are thinking about as ignorant. Is that what you really want to say? Gee if they only knew better they'd agree with me? I find it often the case that people who follow belief systems not shared by very many other persons often fall into the trap of assuming that the others who do not make the choices they do do so out of ignorance.
Monogamy is always a deliberate choice, except for those on desert islands. In our society we are presented with many opportunities to have sex with people who are not the ones that we promised to only have sex with.
Something like monogamy defines its opposite by its very existence. To me, Poly is just a way of talking about it which tries to act like the human animal isn't the jealous controlling thing that it is when it comes to sex.
Poly is a perfectly legitimate lifestyle and moral choice. But I don't think it solves the problems it purports to.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:06 AM on November 16, 2007
The danger with this kind of reasoning is that it ends up describing those people you are thinking about as ignorant. Is that what you really want to say? Gee if they only knew better they'd agree with me? I find it often the case that people who follow belief systems not shared by very many other persons often fall into the trap of assuming that the others who do not make the choices they do do so out of ignorance.
Maybe you know some obnoxiously evangelical poly folks, but I don't see any in this thread. The OP asked for information on options. If she was familiar with and had sufficient insight on all of the options, her question would be rather moot. I agree that from the post that poly is not going to be what she wants, but it's not as if it's off-topic.
posted by desuetude at 10:39 AM on November 16, 2007
Maybe you know some obnoxiously evangelical poly folks, but I don't see any in this thread. The OP asked for information on options. If she was familiar with and had sufficient insight on all of the options, her question would be rather moot. I agree that from the post that poly is not going to be what she wants, but it's not as if it's off-topic.
posted by desuetude at 10:39 AM on November 16, 2007
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posted by hermitosis at 8:10 AM on November 12, 2007