Are differing views on having children always a deal-breaker?
November 11, 2007 9:17 PM Subscribe
Are differing views on having children a deal-breaker for a relationship when the thought of starting a family doesn't come into play for 5 years?
My boyfriend and I have had a happy, stable relationship for two years, and we are ready to move in together. I am 26, and he is 30. We are both of the opinion that this relationship might be one that could last our entire lives. The only problem we see down the road is that we have differing views on having children -- specifically, he wants them someday (in the next 5-10 years), and I do not. We have discussed this problem extensively and it doesn't really appear that there is any middle ground (he is not okay with adoption; for him, biological children are imperative).
As far as I can see, there are logically 6 solutions to this problem:
1) We break up now.
2) We stay together for now, and break up later when the urge to start a family is too great for him.
3) We stay together, and somehow I change my mind and we have children.
4) We stay together, and somehow he changes his mind and we do not have children.
5) We stay together, and I have a child even though I don't really want one (we both agree that this is not really an option because of the potential harm to the child).
6) We stay together and do not have children, even though he continues to want them (and probably resents me greatly).
It seems ridiculous to end a happy and successful relationship because of potential problems years down the road, but at the same time, I don't really see any of the other options working. I really don't want to move in with this guy, spend my twenties with him, and find myself dumped at 32 because I wouldn't have kids.
I have read both here and elsewhere that the differing opinions about children are a relationship "deal-breaker", but I am wondering if there are any options that I am not seeing, or if anyone here has been in a similar situation and had to choose/experience one of the options I'm outlining. Please contact me personally if you're not comfortable posting to the group.
My boyfriend and I have had a happy, stable relationship for two years, and we are ready to move in together. I am 26, and he is 30. We are both of the opinion that this relationship might be one that could last our entire lives. The only problem we see down the road is that we have differing views on having children -- specifically, he wants them someday (in the next 5-10 years), and I do not. We have discussed this problem extensively and it doesn't really appear that there is any middle ground (he is not okay with adoption; for him, biological children are imperative).
As far as I can see, there are logically 6 solutions to this problem:
1) We break up now.
2) We stay together for now, and break up later when the urge to start a family is too great for him.
3) We stay together, and somehow I change my mind and we have children.
4) We stay together, and somehow he changes his mind and we do not have children.
5) We stay together, and I have a child even though I don't really want one (we both agree that this is not really an option because of the potential harm to the child).
6) We stay together and do not have children, even though he continues to want them (and probably resents me greatly).
It seems ridiculous to end a happy and successful relationship because of potential problems years down the road, but at the same time, I don't really see any of the other options working. I really don't want to move in with this guy, spend my twenties with him, and find myself dumped at 32 because I wouldn't have kids.
I have read both here and elsewhere that the differing opinions about children are a relationship "deal-breaker", but I am wondering if there are any options that I am not seeing, or if anyone here has been in a similar situation and had to choose/experience one of the options I'm outlining. Please contact me personally if you're not comfortable posting to the group.
This is definitely one of those crossroads in life where there is no middle ground answer. My first and only devil's advocate, and as a woman who also NEVER EVER wanted children, are you sure you don't want kids in the coming future? 26 is not young, but still pretty young to set such an important decision in stone. I never wanted kids. I never wanted to get married. Then one day, I woke up changing diapers and teaching abc's and absolutely loving it, but everyone is different.
Have you made a list of why you are against having children? I suggest you make one and truly consider which things on that list are valid reason, valid to you, not to him, not to your family, but to you. If career is something so important to you, that is a very valid reason.
After you have made this list, I suggest you give a brief explanation to each one. Then put it aside and don't think about it. Then, and this is a very strong suggestion, but one I think you should take if you do want to find a common ground, try babysitting a friend's child for a weekend. I say a weekend because children take a while to get comfortable with and may seem bratty in the beginning, but they do warm up to you.
If any of these suggestions make you irk or something you would never consider doing because you have your mind set, then I suggest you end this relationship now. You are right, there is no point in wasting your twenties on a relationship that will never meet everyone's standards. Equate this with a high school relationship staying together until the summer before both parties go off to different colleges. You know you are both at different places, or going to be soon, why keep holding on to one another?
Being in a good relationship is something that hypnotizes us to stay in it. We are so conditioned to only leave bad ones, but if you do not agree with crucial points in life, it will not be a good relationship when it comes time to cross that bridge.
posted by dnthomps at 9:30 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
Have you made a list of why you are against having children? I suggest you make one and truly consider which things on that list are valid reason, valid to you, not to him, not to your family, but to you. If career is something so important to you, that is a very valid reason.
After you have made this list, I suggest you give a brief explanation to each one. Then put it aside and don't think about it. Then, and this is a very strong suggestion, but one I think you should take if you do want to find a common ground, try babysitting a friend's child for a weekend. I say a weekend because children take a while to get comfortable with and may seem bratty in the beginning, but they do warm up to you.
If any of these suggestions make you irk or something you would never consider doing because you have your mind set, then I suggest you end this relationship now. You are right, there is no point in wasting your twenties on a relationship that will never meet everyone's standards. Equate this with a high school relationship staying together until the summer before both parties go off to different colleges. You know you are both at different places, or going to be soon, why keep holding on to one another?
Being in a good relationship is something that hypnotizes us to stay in it. We are so conditioned to only leave bad ones, but if you do not agree with crucial points in life, it will not be a good relationship when it comes time to cross that bridge.
posted by dnthomps at 9:30 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
I never ever ever wanted kids - not ever.
and then I did - I'm on the (very) high side of my thirties and six months pregnant right now. you never know, but I wouldn't put money in the bank that you will change your mind.
posted by pinky at 9:38 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
and then I did - I'm on the (very) high side of my thirties and six months pregnant right now. you never know, but I wouldn't put money in the bank that you will change your mind.
posted by pinky at 9:38 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
It is definitely good that you've tried to sort this out now. Communication is key. However -
It seems ridiculous to end a happy and successful relationship because of potential problems years down the road,
But is it happy and successful with this cloud over it where neither of you seems to want to budge? The adoption angle seems like the one way to compromise (and compromise, of course, is at the heart of most successful relationships, so he just might have to do that in terms of accepting an adopted child).
Not that I'm going to advocate cutting and running just over this issue, but it IS a big one; one of the biggest, in fact.
I'm curious about why the issue of an adopted child came up. Is it merely that you just don't want to be pregnant or do you not want to have kids entirely? If it's a matter of just avoiding pregnancy, try to compromise on adoption or hire a surrogate (would likely cost near as much as adoption).
posted by cmgonzalez at 9:39 PM on November 11, 2007
It seems ridiculous to end a happy and successful relationship because of potential problems years down the road,
But is it happy and successful with this cloud over it where neither of you seems to want to budge? The adoption angle seems like the one way to compromise (and compromise, of course, is at the heart of most successful relationships, so he just might have to do that in terms of accepting an adopted child).
Not that I'm going to advocate cutting and running just over this issue, but it IS a big one; one of the biggest, in fact.
I'm curious about why the issue of an adopted child came up. Is it merely that you just don't want to be pregnant or do you not want to have kids entirely? If it's a matter of just avoiding pregnancy, try to compromise on adoption or hire a surrogate (would likely cost near as much as adoption).
posted by cmgonzalez at 9:39 PM on November 11, 2007
Best answer: Singing off-key can be a dealbreaker. Living 200 miles away and having an affair on the side can be not a dealbreaker. Everything and nothing are dealbreakers. No-one can answer this question except you and him.
You've discussed it "extensively", so why don't you have an answer already? Has he said to you, "agree to have kids in 5 years or we break up now"? Have you said to him, "agree to never ask me to have kids, or we break up now"? If neither of you are willing to go that far, it seems to not be a dealbreaker ... now. I'd be inclined to think that neither of you really wants to push your position on the other to the point of breaking up over it.
Other dealbreakers might pop up in the meantime anyway; moving in together can bring things up that otherwise wouldn't be an issue. Or not.
Can you come to a compromise? He said 5-10 years. What if you move in together to see if you can live together without kids for a year, without raising the question for discussion again, but agree to re-examine it after a year. If you haven't changed your minds, but you're still happy together, give it another year. And so on. That gives you at least two years, maybe three, before it's even an issue.
Looking at it cynically, either one of you will change your mind, something else will come up for you to break up over, or you (because you are the one with the position closest to status quo, and the most direct control over the decision) will win.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 9:39 PM on November 11, 2007 [2 favorites]
You've discussed it "extensively", so why don't you have an answer already? Has he said to you, "agree to have kids in 5 years or we break up now"? Have you said to him, "agree to never ask me to have kids, or we break up now"? If neither of you are willing to go that far, it seems to not be a dealbreaker ... now. I'd be inclined to think that neither of you really wants to push your position on the other to the point of breaking up over it.
Other dealbreakers might pop up in the meantime anyway; moving in together can bring things up that otherwise wouldn't be an issue. Or not.
Can you come to a compromise? He said 5-10 years. What if you move in together to see if you can live together without kids for a year, without raising the question for discussion again, but agree to re-examine it after a year. If you haven't changed your minds, but you're still happy together, give it another year. And so on. That gives you at least two years, maybe three, before it's even an issue.
Looking at it cynically, either one of you will change your mind, something else will come up for you to break up over, or you (because you are the one with the position closest to status quo, and the most direct control over the decision) will win.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 9:39 PM on November 11, 2007 [2 favorites]
it doesn't really appear that there is any middle ground (he is not okay with adoption
I'm confused as to why adoption would be the middle ground in this situation. Is it that you do not want to parent children (biological or otherwise), or that you do not physically want to be pregnant and give birth to babies?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:42 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'm confused as to why adoption would be the middle ground in this situation. Is it that you do not want to parent children (biological or otherwise), or that you do not physically want to be pregnant and give birth to babies?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:42 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
It sounds like you really have only two options: end it now or end it later. If it were me, I'd choose the former.
posted by HotPatatta at 9:44 PM on November 11, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by HotPatatta at 9:44 PM on November 11, 2007 [2 favorites]
If there's any one thing in a relationship that's a sure-fire deal-breaker, it's disagreeing about having kids.
I have known one person who wound up changing his mind about this (so there's your counter-example), and one or two women who have not wanted kids but said they'd "find a way to be OK with it" if it came to that (it never did). I've also known people who got married despite having these explicit differences, and wound up getting divorced because of them.
It's true that people can change. And it's true that at 26, it's quite possible you'll change a lot. But it would be unwise at best for either of you to stay with the other banking on that kind of change. It does seem like a waste to break up now when these dark clouds are so distant—especially if one of you came around to the other's side. It would be worse if you found yourselves 15 years down the road and not where you want to be. There's no right answer here: only taking what seems like the best bet.
posted by adamrice at 10:01 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
I have known one person who wound up changing his mind about this (so there's your counter-example), and one or two women who have not wanted kids but said they'd "find a way to be OK with it" if it came to that (it never did). I've also known people who got married despite having these explicit differences, and wound up getting divorced because of them.
It's true that people can change. And it's true that at 26, it's quite possible you'll change a lot. But it would be unwise at best for either of you to stay with the other banking on that kind of change. It does seem like a waste to break up now when these dark clouds are so distant—especially if one of you came around to the other's side. It would be worse if you found yourselves 15 years down the road and not where you want to be. There's no right answer here: only taking what seems like the best bet.
posted by adamrice at 10:01 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
Having kids is not something to do because someone else wants it and you want that someone else. It's something nobody should do unless they really want to do it.
I've ended a few relationships because our point of view on this issue differed, and I've also watched friends suffer because they were too in love to accept that they'd eventually have to face up to this roadblock. I've also seen people spend their entire lives adhering to one side of the issue and then change their minds.
It's a big fucking deal, treat it as such.
posted by padraigin at 10:02 PM on November 11, 2007 [2 favorites]
I've ended a few relationships because our point of view on this issue differed, and I've also watched friends suffer because they were too in love to accept that they'd eventually have to face up to this roadblock. I've also seen people spend their entire lives adhering to one side of the issue and then change their minds.
It's a big fucking deal, treat it as such.
posted by padraigin at 10:02 PM on November 11, 2007 [2 favorites]
At the heart of this matter, it's why you and he feel the way you each do about the subject of children. Try and step back from it and see it as he does, just as he should similarly try to see it from your point of view. Why specifically are you opposed to having children in the next 5-10 years and why does he want them? Are they practical reasons? (expense, stress due to change of location/career, etc.) Are they emotional reasons? Are they just a general preference for having/not having children?
You and he are the only ones who can rightfully decide if this is a "dealbreaker". But I believe if you love someone, you put their best interests before yourself. I think maybe this "maybe baby" situation is casting a pall on an otherwise good relationship. Once you both start thinking of what's best for each other, you can do what's best for your relationship. Best of luck to you.
posted by blueorchids at 10:03 PM on November 11, 2007
You and he are the only ones who can rightfully decide if this is a "dealbreaker". But I believe if you love someone, you put their best interests before yourself. I think maybe this "maybe baby" situation is casting a pall on an otherwise good relationship. Once you both start thinking of what's best for each other, you can do what's best for your relationship. Best of luck to you.
posted by blueorchids at 10:03 PM on November 11, 2007
I don't get this: "For him, biological children are imperative."
What if he or you cannot physically have them? What happens to his "imperative" then?
posted by GaelFC at 10:07 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
What if he or you cannot physically have them? What happens to his "imperative" then?
posted by GaelFC at 10:07 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
I wanted to completely disagree with blueorchids. In the end, if both of you are sure of what you think on this issue, it doesn't matter in the least why you think that.
Your options boil down to :
-You break up
-You stay together and someone changes
-You stay together, and one of you begins to resent the other. Probably leads to 1.
If neither of you are wiling to say that you'll be the one that changes, then I think you should break up, and I would say do it sooner than later.
posted by jacalata at 10:09 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
Your options boil down to :
-You break up
-You stay together and someone changes
-You stay together, and one of you begins to resent the other. Probably leads to 1.
If neither of you are wiling to say that you'll be the one that changes, then I think you should break up, and I would say do it sooner than later.
posted by jacalata at 10:09 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
For a long-term, serious, possibly-forever relationship, absolutely. If I am sure that I want babies, and my partner is equally sure that he does not, we have completely different goals that can't be met together.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 10:15 PM on November 11, 2007
posted by thehmsbeagle at 10:15 PM on November 11, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks for all the feedback, I truly appreciate the responses.
To answer a few of the questions that have been posed:
Have you made a list of why you are against having children?
Yes, I have. I don't want to bore the community with them, but I have thought them out pretty thoroughly and have even gone over them with a therapist. I am aware that I might change my mind one day -- biology is a powerful thing -- but I'm not sure that I want to bet on it.
I'm curious about why the issue of an adopted child came up.
Again, without going into too much detail, many of my reasons for not wanting children involve issues with having my own child (pregnancy, life changes that fall on females more than men, concerns about the worthiness of my genes, and world overpopulation, to name a few). The idea of potentially adopting a child is much more palatable to me, although it doesn't address all of my concerns. I brought it up to the Boyfriend as a potential "compromise", but no dice. We talked about a surrogate, but that seems overly complicated and, frankly, a bit weird for our situation.
posted by designmartini at 10:17 PM on November 11, 2007
To answer a few of the questions that have been posed:
Have you made a list of why you are against having children?
Yes, I have. I don't want to bore the community with them, but I have thought them out pretty thoroughly and have even gone over them with a therapist. I am aware that I might change my mind one day -- biology is a powerful thing -- but I'm not sure that I want to bet on it.
I'm curious about why the issue of an adopted child came up.
Again, without going into too much detail, many of my reasons for not wanting children involve issues with having my own child (pregnancy, life changes that fall on females more than men, concerns about the worthiness of my genes, and world overpopulation, to name a few). The idea of potentially adopting a child is much more palatable to me, although it doesn't address all of my concerns. I brought it up to the Boyfriend as a potential "compromise", but no dice. We talked about a surrogate, but that seems overly complicated and, frankly, a bit weird for our situation.
posted by designmartini at 10:17 PM on November 11, 2007
With due respect: at 26, your biological clock hasn't yet started ticking. I've known women who have been adamantly against having kids, and, as other posters have said, woke up one day all clucky.
Whilst you're not too young to make the decision, I think the decision is too far-reaching to make just yet. How do you know how you will feel in a year? Two years? Or even tomorrow? (same applies to him, of course!)
posted by flutable at 10:18 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
Whilst you're not too young to make the decision, I think the decision is too far-reaching to make just yet. How do you know how you will feel in a year? Two years? Or even tomorrow? (same applies to him, of course!)
posted by flutable at 10:18 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
For a long-term, serious, possibly-forever relationship, absolutely. If I am sure that I want babies, and my partner is equally sure that he does not, we have completely different goals that can't be met together.
posted by thehmsbeagle
Bingo.
posted by padraigin at 10:21 PM on November 11, 2007
posted by thehmsbeagle
Bingo.
posted by padraigin at 10:21 PM on November 11, 2007
Response by poster: @padraigin - just to be clear, no one is proposing having kids when both partners aren't whole-heartedly into it. I put it in my list as one of the possible outcomes from a pure logic point of view, but I want to emphasize that it is not something that me or my boyfriend are even remotely considering.
posted by designmartini at 10:24 PM on November 11, 2007
posted by designmartini at 10:24 PM on November 11, 2007
I'm curious to see how others respond to this question. I'm kind of going through the same thing as you, except fast forward the 5 yrs. I had an ex of 7 yrs in my early twenties and I didn't think i wanted kids with him then after we broke up, I was SURE I didn't want kids. Now, I am engaged to be married to someone who definitely wants kids. And me? The verdicts still out but I'm leaning more and more towards having children because of how much I love this man. It's now hard for me to imagine us growing old together and not having a family.
This is a big shift from how I felt before, I had a bazillion reasons not to want kids. First, I don't especially like children, I find them mostly annoying. But then I read something like this. Second, I had a lot of fears of my own capabilities as a parent. Now I have so much faith in my partner and our team that I think we'll do OK. Also, pregnancy is gross to me (no offence pregnant ladies out there) but he's willing to adopt if I say I can't/won't carry one. Shit, I even worry that things like the weak dollar is a good reason not to have babies. He'd probably suggest we become expats.
I think you really do need to look at the reasons both of you feel the way you do, perhaps make the list as dnthomps suggests. Then set it aside and revisit it after a year of living together as aeschenkarnos suggest and see how you feel.
FWIW, I'm 32 and looking back at 26, I still had a lot to learn about myself (hell, I still do.)
posted by lannanh at 10:25 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
This is a big shift from how I felt before, I had a bazillion reasons not to want kids. First, I don't especially like children, I find them mostly annoying. But then I read something like this. Second, I had a lot of fears of my own capabilities as a parent. Now I have so much faith in my partner and our team that I think we'll do OK. Also, pregnancy is gross to me (no offence pregnant ladies out there) but he's willing to adopt if I say I can't/won't carry one. Shit, I even worry that things like the weak dollar is a good reason not to have babies. He'd probably suggest we become expats.
I think you really do need to look at the reasons both of you feel the way you do, perhaps make the list as dnthomps suggests. Then set it aside and revisit it after a year of living together as aeschenkarnos suggest and see how you feel.
FWIW, I'm 32 and looking back at 26, I still had a lot to learn about myself (hell, I still do.)
posted by lannanh at 10:25 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
OK this is very likely a terrible thing to say, but I'm going to anyway.
Were the situation reversed, and you wanted kids at 30 and he did not at 26, I would tell you to break up. Why? Because you would be looking at a relatively small window of opportunity for change. You could hang out for 5 years and wait for him to change his mind, but you'd basically have to rush out and get knocked up on the rebound to make having kids a realistic possibility.
In your case, however, I say wait. Hang out for another five years. You're happy together; enjoy it. If you still don't want kids down the road and he does, then you can part ways because he will have much, much more time than you to re-pair and procreate.
Biology is a bitch.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:42 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
Were the situation reversed, and you wanted kids at 30 and he did not at 26, I would tell you to break up. Why? Because you would be looking at a relatively small window of opportunity for change. You could hang out for 5 years and wait for him to change his mind, but you'd basically have to rush out and get knocked up on the rebound to make having kids a realistic possibility.
In your case, however, I say wait. Hang out for another five years. You're happy together; enjoy it. If you still don't want kids down the road and he does, then you can part ways because he will have much, much more time than you to re-pair and procreate.
Biology is a bitch.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:42 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
My personal opinion is that having kids should be limited to those who 1) want them, 2) can afford them (realistically) and 3) can raise them without screwing them up.
"Biological imperative" is no reason for a man to have kids, as far as I'm concerned. I admit that many women are wired to desire actual childbirth, and we face the additional pressure of not having nearly as much time as men do in making this personal decision. Whatever guys are wired for can be accomplished without actually causing pregnancy (!) and so to hear from a guy about biological imperative to me is just a kind of selfishness. But, he's being upfront about it, and many men aren't.
So my logic tells me:
1) We break up now.
2) We stay together for now, and break up later when the urge to start a family is too great for him.
If this question really seems unbreachable, do it now when it's easier and less tangled up in common assets and whatnot.
3) We stay together, and somehow I change my mind and we have children.
4) We stay together, and somehow he changes his mind and we do not have children.
Only you can know these things, but I don't think he'll change his mind - men rarely do (at least in this direction.)
5) We stay together, and I have a child even though I don't really want one (we both agree that this is not really an option because of the potential harm to the child).
So take it off the table, because you're both right about this.
6) We stay together and do not have children, even though he continues to want them (and probably resents me greatly).
Probably. And although he'd have himself to blame (since you were always honest, and he could have left), it'll still be a tough road. As life-changing as having kids is, not ever having them when you want to is probably just as affecting. I'd take this one off the table too.
So for me, it would all boil down to whether or not I believed I would change my mind. If not, I'd say goodbye. If his perception of fatherhood weren't so dogmatic (no adoption, which would also presumably rule out things like foster care), there might be something like wiggle room. But there isn't.
Kids are a lifelong commitment. Ann Landers had a famous poll in the 1970's in which 10,000 people with kids answered the question, would you do it all over again? 70% said "no" - they'd either not have kids or have fewer than they did. Many said, it was too much work, it spoiled a lot of the joys of marriage, now that the kids are gone, I don't have much of a relationship with them (and so on.) It was an unscientific poll, but sadly, the "joy of parenting" is such a bandied-about term that it's very hard to be honest about the regrets - to say you regret having kids is socially unacceptable.
I think most of us would agree that one should hesitate to share a life together if:
1) The relationship is physically or emotionally abusive.
2) One or both partners has uncontrollable problems with alcohol or drug abuse, gambling or other addictive behaviors.
3) One or both partners cannot handle money properly. This is the biggest factor in ending marriages.
I'd add "serious differences about having or raising children" to that list. (And believe it or not, this relates to other factors, too. For instance, the number one prognosticator of whether or not a couple will declare bankruptcy one day isn't their race or education level or class-status or whether they're an immigrant or anything like that - it's whether or not they have kids.)
I don't know you or your boyfriend, and so this advice may seem a little emotionless . . . but I expect you want a rational answer. Maybe if I did know you, I'd find you the most charming couple ever and lament any talk of a breakup! But I'd still stand by this assessment: if you really don't think you'll change your mind, break it off now, 'cause it'll only get worse otherwise.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 10:53 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
"Biological imperative" is no reason for a man to have kids, as far as I'm concerned. I admit that many women are wired to desire actual childbirth, and we face the additional pressure of not having nearly as much time as men do in making this personal decision. Whatever guys are wired for can be accomplished without actually causing pregnancy (!) and so to hear from a guy about biological imperative to me is just a kind of selfishness. But, he's being upfront about it, and many men aren't.
So my logic tells me:
1) We break up now.
2) We stay together for now, and break up later when the urge to start a family is too great for him.
If this question really seems unbreachable, do it now when it's easier and less tangled up in common assets and whatnot.
3) We stay together, and somehow I change my mind and we have children.
4) We stay together, and somehow he changes his mind and we do not have children.
Only you can know these things, but I don't think he'll change his mind - men rarely do (at least in this direction.)
5) We stay together, and I have a child even though I don't really want one (we both agree that this is not really an option because of the potential harm to the child).
So take it off the table, because you're both right about this.
6) We stay together and do not have children, even though he continues to want them (and probably resents me greatly).
Probably. And although he'd have himself to blame (since you were always honest, and he could have left), it'll still be a tough road. As life-changing as having kids is, not ever having them when you want to is probably just as affecting. I'd take this one off the table too.
So for me, it would all boil down to whether or not I believed I would change my mind. If not, I'd say goodbye. If his perception of fatherhood weren't so dogmatic (no adoption, which would also presumably rule out things like foster care), there might be something like wiggle room. But there isn't.
Kids are a lifelong commitment. Ann Landers had a famous poll in the 1970's in which 10,000 people with kids answered the question, would you do it all over again? 70% said "no" - they'd either not have kids or have fewer than they did. Many said, it was too much work, it spoiled a lot of the joys of marriage, now that the kids are gone, I don't have much of a relationship with them (and so on.) It was an unscientific poll, but sadly, the "joy of parenting" is such a bandied-about term that it's very hard to be honest about the regrets - to say you regret having kids is socially unacceptable.
I think most of us would agree that one should hesitate to share a life together if:
1) The relationship is physically or emotionally abusive.
2) One or both partners has uncontrollable problems with alcohol or drug abuse, gambling or other addictive behaviors.
3) One or both partners cannot handle money properly. This is the biggest factor in ending marriages.
I'd add "serious differences about having or raising children" to that list. (And believe it or not, this relates to other factors, too. For instance, the number one prognosticator of whether or not a couple will declare bankruptcy one day isn't their race or education level or class-status or whether they're an immigrant or anything like that - it's whether or not they have kids.)
I don't know you or your boyfriend, and so this advice may seem a little emotionless . . . but I expect you want a rational answer. Maybe if I did know you, I'd find you the most charming couple ever and lament any talk of a breakup! But I'd still stand by this assessment: if you really don't think you'll change your mind, break it off now, 'cause it'll only get worse otherwise.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 10:53 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
Sometimes people ask questions they already know the answer to but aren't ready to accept. Sure, everyone knows someone who changed his/her mind and the couple is happily together to this day. And women do sometimes seem to really hear that biological clock ticking when they hit their mid-thirties. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to take a gamble on one of you changing your mind. Children are one of the deal-breaking issues, along with things like significantly different attitudes towards money, addictions of any sort, and one person being a fundamentalist [insert faith] when the other isn't.
It's tough but ending the relationship is the best thing in this unfortunate situation.
posted by 6550 at 11:01 PM on November 11, 2007
It's tough but ending the relationship is the best thing in this unfortunate situation.
posted by 6550 at 11:01 PM on November 11, 2007
Best answer: DarlingBri is spot-on. You don't want kids. So you don't need to initiate a break up! He's the one with the dwindling window of opportunity, and he's the one who will have to decide what he wants more. Honestly, you won't have that much difficulty finding a new romance at 30 or 35, if it comes to that.
posted by TeatimeGrommit at 11:02 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by TeatimeGrommit at 11:02 PM on November 11, 2007 [1 favorite]
Kiss him goodbye now, before it becomes too hard. I dated someone who wanted children, and thought I could keep it casual until the time came for us to go our separate ways. Three years later it ended and now, seven years later it still hurts like a bitch. He now has children, by the way.
It is possible that either one of you could change your mind, given time, but it is highly unlikely.
Yeah, it's irritating and crazy-making that this one thing is so huge, but it is. Don't waste your time in a relationship that you know you'll probably have to walk away from.
Good luck. My thoughts go with you.
posted by tejolote at 11:16 PM on November 11, 2007
It is possible that either one of you could change your mind, given time, but it is highly unlikely.
Yeah, it's irritating and crazy-making that this one thing is so huge, but it is. Don't waste your time in a relationship that you know you'll probably have to walk away from.
Good luck. My thoughts go with you.
posted by tejolote at 11:16 PM on November 11, 2007
It is possible that either one of you could change your mind, given time, but it is highly unlikely.
Actually, I would say it's not all that unlikely. If I had a dollar for every woman I've known who adamantly didn't want kids in her early-to-mid-20s and then changed her mind when the early 30's came around, well, I'd have an awful lot of dollars.
Which isn't to say that the OP should or can count on being one of them, of course, but lots and lots of people change their minds when the ol' biological clock starts winding down.
posted by Justinian at 11:23 PM on November 11, 2007
Actually, I would say it's not all that unlikely. If I had a dollar for every woman I've known who adamantly didn't want kids in her early-to-mid-20s and then changed her mind when the early 30's came around, well, I'd have an awful lot of dollars.
Which isn't to say that the OP should or can count on being one of them, of course, but lots and lots of people change their minds when the ol' biological clock starts winding down.
posted by Justinian at 11:23 PM on November 11, 2007
I can think of 3 couples I know for whom the answer was #4, and two more for whom the answer was #3. You don't have to make the decision this week or even this year, I'd say spend at least a year living together and see how that shakes out.
posted by cali at 11:35 PM on November 11, 2007
posted by cali at 11:35 PM on November 11, 2007
I am going to mention something I did not see anyone else mention, or only slightly touch. I have had many many friends over the years clamor up and down that they didn't want kids. I have even had friends who did not plan a pregnancy and as much as they loved their child, they did not want anymore.
Then came that ONE person. THE person. The one they truly knew they could be with for a long time, if not for the rest of their lives. The one they knew they would be able to trust and share the responsibilities of raising children with, something that is an innate feeling we all share. Who would want to have a child with a complete moron who couldn't change a diaper or hold down a job to save their life? Of course not.
I personally believe that every woman goes through that fear. There is a fear about how the world is, how unstable marriages can become, how no one wants to bring a child into such uncertainty, trust me....I was once that person. And I was never even the one who got pregnant, I am the step-mom, therefore I truly did a complete 180 from my decision. I love my baby (and she is mine in all sense of the word because I have been there since diapers) since day one. In fact, I have been asking my husband for another child for over a year now because our little one just started Kindergarten and I truly enjoyed the past 5 years.
Perhaps you will change your mind once your biological clock does start ticking. Once you witness your friends getting married and having baby showers, a part of your female instincts will get nostalgic. Not to say those are valid reasons to have a child, but I think at 26, it may be to soon to set something in stone.
But for now, I do not think your current boyfriend deserves that glimmer of hope. I say, like I did in my earlier posting, you have to be honest with yourself and with him. Who knows, in the future, you may find someone else who wants a marriage without kids. And he will find someone who wants a whole soccer team. But it is very obvious you are both at different places right now and there is no point in clinging for either to change.
posted by dnthomps at 12:01 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Then came that ONE person. THE person. The one they truly knew they could be with for a long time, if not for the rest of their lives. The one they knew they would be able to trust and share the responsibilities of raising children with, something that is an innate feeling we all share. Who would want to have a child with a complete moron who couldn't change a diaper or hold down a job to save their life? Of course not.
I personally believe that every woman goes through that fear. There is a fear about how the world is, how unstable marriages can become, how no one wants to bring a child into such uncertainty, trust me....I was once that person. And I was never even the one who got pregnant, I am the step-mom, therefore I truly did a complete 180 from my decision. I love my baby (and she is mine in all sense of the word because I have been there since diapers) since day one. In fact, I have been asking my husband for another child for over a year now because our little one just started Kindergarten and I truly enjoyed the past 5 years.
Perhaps you will change your mind once your biological clock does start ticking. Once you witness your friends getting married and having baby showers, a part of your female instincts will get nostalgic. Not to say those are valid reasons to have a child, but I think at 26, it may be to soon to set something in stone.
But for now, I do not think your current boyfriend deserves that glimmer of hope. I say, like I did in my earlier posting, you have to be honest with yourself and with him. Who knows, in the future, you may find someone else who wants a marriage without kids. And he will find someone who wants a whole soccer team. But it is very obvious you are both at different places right now and there is no point in clinging for either to change.
posted by dnthomps at 12:01 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
He's set on producing biologically related children, but there is some small possibility that he could be infertile. If this is the case, it might change his mind about having children. It's cheap to get tested (hey, you can probably do a basic test yourself if you have a good microscope), so find out if he can even have kids before you break up over this.
posted by yohko at 12:38 AM on November 12, 2007
posted by yohko at 12:38 AM on November 12, 2007
Best answer: TeatimeGrommit He's the one with the dwindling window of opportunity
He's 30. He has another 25 years before that window starts to look narrow-ish.
Honestly, you won't have that much difficulty finding a new romance at 30 or 35, if it comes to that.
That's true, and it would seem to me to be as good an argument to stay together as you're going to get from other people. We can tell you what we'd do if we were you, or him, but that doesn't mean much, since we're not.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 12:58 AM on November 12, 2007
He's 30. He has another 25 years before that window starts to look narrow-ish.
Honestly, you won't have that much difficulty finding a new romance at 30 or 35, if it comes to that.
That's true, and it would seem to me to be as good an argument to stay together as you're going to get from other people. We can tell you what we'd do if we were you, or him, but that doesn't mean much, since we're not.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 12:58 AM on November 12, 2007
Let it go and move along. Life is short and you both know what you want and that is compatible with each other.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:48 AM on November 12, 2007
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:48 AM on November 12, 2007
People do change their minds about these kinds of things. From what I've seen, it's usually from not wanting kids to wanting them. But that's probably at least party because once someone has kids, it'd be natural to make a virtue out of a necessity. (I don't want kids, myself.)
posted by Coventry at 4:16 AM on November 12, 2007
posted by Coventry at 4:16 AM on November 12, 2007
Tread carefully. Many of my older baby boomer friends are coming out on the other side of this issue and you would not believe the ways a relationship can be screwed up once you get into the endgame of having kids vs. not wanting to have kids.
Generally, judging by their own complaints, my older, college educated friends and family did not, and are not having enough children. They spent too much time working on their careers only to get spit out of the workforce when they reached middle age, and their company never gave them grandchildren as a parting gift.
Judging by their own complaints, my younger, high school/college dropout friends are having too many children, too soon. If only they would have held off for another year or two to finish that degree they would have a lot more career options when it comes to paying for all these kids they wanted. Plus they could have saved up some money and been on firmer financial footing.
posted by the_W at 4:33 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Generally, judging by their own complaints, my older, college educated friends and family did not, and are not having enough children. They spent too much time working on their careers only to get spit out of the workforce when they reached middle age, and their company never gave them grandchildren as a parting gift.
Judging by their own complaints, my younger, high school/college dropout friends are having too many children, too soon. If only they would have held off for another year or two to finish that degree they would have a lot more career options when it comes to paying for all these kids they wanted. Plus they could have saved up some money and been on firmer financial footing.
posted by the_W at 4:33 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Having been there and done that, I have to say that breaking up because of potential problems that might occur in the future is one of the saddest things ever. You can talk yourself into in pretty easily -- "it would be easier to do it now"; "what if we never find a good compromise" -- but I think that really it is more a way of avoiding what is big and scary and unknown, rather than being rational and sensible.
Maybe you will need to break up in five years when his biological clock starts to tick and yours doesn't, but maybe you won't. You can fill the world with "maybe"s -- maybe you change your mind, maybe he changes his, maybe your cousin gets sick and you are asked to take the nieces and nephews, maybe you later want a baby but one of you is infertile; maybe maybe maybe maybe.
I say, don't worry about the maybes, worry about what you actually know right now. Do you guys love each other, and treat each other well every day? Does he make you smile? Then enjoy that for as long as it lasts, and worry about these other issues when they actually become real. On the other hand, if your day to day lives are miserable, and you don't like talking to each other, and the last time you had sex was in 2002, and he smells bad, then you have reasons for breaking up. Either way, the reason to break up or not should not be some sort of abstract potential future incompatibility. At some point the issue of children may stop being a future issue, and become an immediate issue -- he will say, "I am ready now, and if you are not I need to find a woman who is," and you will deal with that then. Right now, he is not ready to make that statement, and you are not able to know how you will answer it, so don't worry about it for now.
posted by Forktine at 4:44 AM on November 12, 2007 [8 favorites]
Maybe you will need to break up in five years when his biological clock starts to tick and yours doesn't, but maybe you won't. You can fill the world with "maybe"s -- maybe you change your mind, maybe he changes his, maybe your cousin gets sick and you are asked to take the nieces and nephews, maybe you later want a baby but one of you is infertile; maybe maybe maybe maybe.
I say, don't worry about the maybes, worry about what you actually know right now. Do you guys love each other, and treat each other well every day? Does he make you smile? Then enjoy that for as long as it lasts, and worry about these other issues when they actually become real. On the other hand, if your day to day lives are miserable, and you don't like talking to each other, and the last time you had sex was in 2002, and he smells bad, then you have reasons for breaking up. Either way, the reason to break up or not should not be some sort of abstract potential future incompatibility. At some point the issue of children may stop being a future issue, and become an immediate issue -- he will say, "I am ready now, and if you are not I need to find a woman who is," and you will deal with that then. Right now, he is not ready to make that statement, and you are not able to know how you will answer it, so don't worry about it for now.
posted by Forktine at 4:44 AM on November 12, 2007 [8 favorites]
There's no guarantees you'll be together in five years even if one of you changes his/her mind.
Since it is he who wants kids and not vice versa, "wasting" five years is not the biological imperative for him that it would have been for you had the viewpoints and ages been reversed.
I am one who never wanted kids-untill I did. IF you are one that could see yourself actually raising kids-thru adoption-I'd be willing to wager that you would be one who eventually will hear the biological clock ticking.
So, whatever you do, don't make a kneejerk reaction just yet.
posted by konolia at 4:54 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Since it is he who wants kids and not vice versa, "wasting" five years is not the biological imperative for him that it would have been for you had the viewpoints and ages been reversed.
I am one who never wanted kids-untill I did. IF you are one that could see yourself actually raising kids-thru adoption-I'd be willing to wager that you would be one who eventually will hear the biological clock ticking.
So, whatever you do, don't make a kneejerk reaction just yet.
posted by konolia at 4:54 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Apparently plenty of people change their minds about this kind of thing, but I'm one who hasn't. And, I'm not married to a moron - I'm married to the person with whom I plan to spend the rest of my life - I just know myself well and know that while I would be a good parent, I would not enjoy it. I know this about myself as surely as I know the sun will come up tomorrow.
You and he both deserve to live the lives you want to live. It's hard to accept that if you are happy now, you should break up over this sort of thing, but you probably should. I mean, sure, he's fertile for the next x-so-whatever number of years, but does he want to be in the position of having kids when he's 40 instead of when he's 35? What is important to him with regard to his age when he has kids? I understand about a woman's biological clock, but I also understand that a man has an interest in being able to do what he wants with the kids when he can, rather than having a two year old at 45. Let the guy find someone who shares this dream of his.
Also: worry about these other issues when they actually become real.
Seriously? These issues are real right now. Otherwise, they wouldn't be a topic of discussion. This kind of thinking, this "ignore all things that could get in the way of this" attitude, is what leads people to marry recklessly and to then later get divorced. Spending a huge chunk of your life with someone who does not share your goals and dreams is a really big deal. If you go to marriage counselling, you will be asked about this issue, and if s/he is like my marriage counsellor, the only thing that will matter is if you both have the same answer.
posted by Medieval Maven at 5:27 AM on November 12, 2007 [7 favorites]
You and he both deserve to live the lives you want to live. It's hard to accept that if you are happy now, you should break up over this sort of thing, but you probably should. I mean, sure, he's fertile for the next x-so-whatever number of years, but does he want to be in the position of having kids when he's 40 instead of when he's 35? What is important to him with regard to his age when he has kids? I understand about a woman's biological clock, but I also understand that a man has an interest in being able to do what he wants with the kids when he can, rather than having a two year old at 45. Let the guy find someone who shares this dream of his.
Also: worry about these other issues when they actually become real.
Seriously? These issues are real right now. Otherwise, they wouldn't be a topic of discussion. This kind of thinking, this "ignore all things that could get in the way of this" attitude, is what leads people to marry recklessly and to then later get divorced. Spending a huge chunk of your life with someone who does not share your goals and dreams is a really big deal. If you go to marriage counselling, you will be asked about this issue, and if s/he is like my marriage counsellor, the only thing that will matter is if you both have the same answer.
posted by Medieval Maven at 5:27 AM on November 12, 2007 [7 favorites]
To me it's a red flag that he wouldn't consider non biological children (whether or not that would work for you in the end, etc). If his commitment to YOU and his commitment to PARENTING are not strong enough to even allow him to consider the possibility of adoption, I think that you are making a very good call to not want to have children with him, regardless of the question of ever with anyone.
As for staying together or breaking up... I believe you'll do the right thing when you're ready. That you're asking this question now (why now and not last year or next year) hints to me that you're probably getting ready to leave him.
posted by Salamandrous at 5:27 AM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
As for staying together or breaking up... I believe you'll do the right thing when you're ready. That you're asking this question now (why now and not last year or next year) hints to me that you're probably getting ready to leave him.
posted by Salamandrous at 5:27 AM on November 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
I think you are nuts to even consider moving in with someone with an unresolved issue this crucial. If you do decide to live together, have an exit strategy, and/or enough savings to move out on your own if things go south.
From my own experience (vasectomy in mid twenties). I never wanted kids, and now that I'm in my mid thirties, I still don't want kids. However, my feelings shifted from kids being absolutely untenable to just generally objectionable when I met my wife. I think if you are with someone responsible and lovable who you can see yourself growing old with it's a lot easier to envision kids in the picture. How this applies to you? Well if you were going to change your mind about kids, it probably wouldn't be with the guy you are with now. If he made you feel that secure you'd already be thinking about it.
posted by BrotherCaine at 5:45 AM on November 12, 2007
From my own experience (vasectomy in mid twenties). I never wanted kids, and now that I'm in my mid thirties, I still don't want kids. However, my feelings shifted from kids being absolutely untenable to just generally objectionable when I met my wife. I think if you are with someone responsible and lovable who you can see yourself growing old with it's a lot easier to envision kids in the picture. How this applies to you? Well if you were going to change your mind about kids, it probably wouldn't be with the guy you are with now. If he made you feel that secure you'd already be thinking about it.
posted by BrotherCaine at 5:45 AM on November 12, 2007
Oh, and I brought up the fact that I didn't want kids on my third date with my wife precisely because I know it is one of the biggest dealbreakers out there. When I got to a certain age, I didn't want to waste time and energy on relationships that aren't going to last for a long time.
posted by BrotherCaine at 5:49 AM on November 12, 2007
posted by BrotherCaine at 5:49 AM on November 12, 2007
Best answer: I don't want children, and it's so far not been an issue with people I have dated, as the majority have been of the same opinion. However, I think it's worth it to stay with your boyfriend, despite this difference. I'm not going to tell you that you're going to change your mind on this subject, because, well, I don't necessarily believe it. Not to mention that you've been told that enough, and you're always going to hear that from people who may never question a person's decision to engage in or refrain from other huge life endeavors. I think people can work this kind of incompatibility out, and compromise.
The only thing about the situation that worries me is that he's so dead-set against adoption. That he is so unwilling to even entertain this as compromise, makes me wonder if he's (maybe unconsciously) drawing a line in the sand.
posted by Coatlicue at 5:55 AM on November 12, 2007
The only thing about the situation that worries me is that he's so dead-set against adoption. That he is so unwilling to even entertain this as compromise, makes me wonder if he's (maybe unconsciously) drawing a line in the sand.
posted by Coatlicue at 5:55 AM on November 12, 2007
It's a deal breaker.
Hoping that you will change in the future, and maybe giving him that impression is a recipe for disaster. 5 years from now, if you don't change your mind, he will feel deceived and resentful, and you will feel increasingly pressured. If you do have kids because you simply "give in" in order to stay together, you will be resentful, and may resent the kids. This is not fair to anyone.
posted by The Deej at 6:52 AM on November 12, 2007
Hoping that you will change in the future, and maybe giving him that impression is a recipe for disaster. 5 years from now, if you don't change your mind, he will feel deceived and resentful, and you will feel increasingly pressured. If you do have kids because you simply "give in" in order to stay together, you will be resentful, and may resent the kids. This is not fair to anyone.
posted by The Deej at 6:52 AM on November 12, 2007
It seems like you and your boyfriends' ideas about the realities of parenthood actually aren't that clear, given that you're willing to consider adoption or surrogacy and he is not. Unless there really is some severe genetic or health problem in your background, the whole pregnancy-childbirth aspect is a pretty minimal part of the equation. It's not like an adopted one-year-old is going to be any easier to care for than a biological one-year-old...
posted by footnote at 7:30 AM on November 12, 2007
posted by footnote at 7:30 AM on November 12, 2007
Break up with him. Sure, you might change your mind on kids, but you're pretty firmly set in your opinion now and you've put a lot of thought into it. I don't think this is an opinion that's going to magically change overnight. If you don't want to work to change your mind, living together for awhile isn't going to change anything. And since you guys have agreed not to have kids unless you truly want to, you're essentially getting what you want and thus have little incentive to change. He, meanwhile, is sacrificing a big life goal for you -- and don't expect him to do it forever.
That being said, make sure this really is a deal-breaker before you do anything. Since you're willing to consider adoption, it seems having children might not truly be out of the picture. And maybe he can change his mind on adoption or surrogate mothers if he knows it's how he can have kids and still be with you. If neither of you can truly commit to whatever compromise you make, break up.
posted by lilac girl at 7:55 AM on November 12, 2007
That being said, make sure this really is a deal-breaker before you do anything. Since you're willing to consider adoption, it seems having children might not truly be out of the picture. And maybe he can change his mind on adoption or surrogate mothers if he knows it's how he can have kids and still be with you. If neither of you can truly commit to whatever compromise you make, break up.
posted by lilac girl at 7:55 AM on November 12, 2007
I never, EVER wanted kids. Didn't like them. Thought they were incredibly annoying. If a woman came in the room with a baby, i went the other way. Never liked babysitting. NEVER wanted kids. Was adamant, vehemantly against kids. Probably could say I hated kids.
I turned 30 and wanted A kid. One kid. I now have said kid and am SO GLAD. Now I want another kid and can't get pregnant and it's making me pretty sad I waited so long.
All I'm saying is you never know. Stay with him, things may change, and if they don't, you can break up when it becomes a REAL issue, not a hazy "issue in the future."
posted by aacheson at 8:02 AM on November 12, 2007
I turned 30 and wanted A kid. One kid. I now have said kid and am SO GLAD. Now I want another kid and can't get pregnant and it's making me pretty sad I waited so long.
All I'm saying is you never know. Stay with him, things may change, and if they don't, you can break up when it becomes a REAL issue, not a hazy "issue in the future."
posted by aacheson at 8:02 AM on November 12, 2007
Best answer: So, I'm in your same situation. I (38 YO male) have never wanted kids, for a long list of reasons too personal to go into here. I love kids, my nephews are great, I just don't want any of my own.
I meet a woman, and I fall in love. She wants kids - not desperately, just in that "it's what you do" sort of way that a lot of people have. When we first started dating, it wasn't a big deal, but then once things got more serious and looked to be heading marriage-ward, it obviously became more of a deal.
When it became obvious that we were going to move in together, as a prelude to marriage, I brought the kid thing back up. I said that, in my mind, moving in together was definitely the step before marriage (that I didn't just want a roommate, I wanted this to go somewhere) and if that were the case, then she'd have to decide what she wanted to do, because my position on having kids, like yours, is 99.9999% sure to not change.
It almost broke us up. She took a couple weeks to "think about some stuff", and during that time, consulted everyone from all her friends, to her parents, to her counselor, in trying to make a decision. In that time, she never even called me - she needed to do this, and I needed to let her, because it was a pretty fundamental life-shift for her.
The conclusion she came to was this. She's 37 years old, and she loves me - she'd rather spend a childless life with someone she truly loves than leave me now on the hopes that someday soon she'll find someone that she wants to have a child with.
I can't even tell you how much that means to me - I'm extremely lucky. But, I'm also smart enough to know that the conversation's never over - she has occasional pangs of regret about her decision (and will probably do so for a while), and when those things happen, I just have to let them happen and be there for her when she needs it.
So, long story short - no, it's not automatically a deal breaker, but you have to be totally up front (no "hope that someday you'll change your mind" type deals - assume that you won't), let your boyfriend come to his own decision, and not try to shape it in any way before you two go any further. If he stays with you, be respectful of the magnitude of the decision he's made, and know that occasionally it'll come back up between the two of you.
Good luck.
posted by pdb at 8:02 AM on November 12, 2007 [4 favorites]
I meet a woman, and I fall in love. She wants kids - not desperately, just in that "it's what you do" sort of way that a lot of people have. When we first started dating, it wasn't a big deal, but then once things got more serious and looked to be heading marriage-ward, it obviously became more of a deal.
When it became obvious that we were going to move in together, as a prelude to marriage, I brought the kid thing back up. I said that, in my mind, moving in together was definitely the step before marriage (that I didn't just want a roommate, I wanted this to go somewhere) and if that were the case, then she'd have to decide what she wanted to do, because my position on having kids, like yours, is 99.9999% sure to not change.
It almost broke us up. She took a couple weeks to "think about some stuff", and during that time, consulted everyone from all her friends, to her parents, to her counselor, in trying to make a decision. In that time, she never even called me - she needed to do this, and I needed to let her, because it was a pretty fundamental life-shift for her.
The conclusion she came to was this. She's 37 years old, and she loves me - she'd rather spend a childless life with someone she truly loves than leave me now on the hopes that someday soon she'll find someone that she wants to have a child with.
I can't even tell you how much that means to me - I'm extremely lucky. But, I'm also smart enough to know that the conversation's never over - she has occasional pangs of regret about her decision (and will probably do so for a while), and when those things happen, I just have to let them happen and be there for her when she needs it.
So, long story short - no, it's not automatically a deal breaker, but you have to be totally up front (no "hope that someday you'll change your mind" type deals - assume that you won't), let your boyfriend come to his own decision, and not try to shape it in any way before you two go any further. If he stays with you, be respectful of the magnitude of the decision he's made, and know that occasionally it'll come back up between the two of you.
Good luck.
posted by pdb at 8:02 AM on November 12, 2007 [4 favorites]
We're a married couple that married without wanting kids. We both like kids, but weren't really interested in having our own.
We married at 32 and when we were 36 we changed our minds. Now we have a great 17 month old daughter.
My point really is that thoughts, opinions and desires change dramatically through life. You're 26 now, and at 36 you'll barely be the same person. It's not all that different from the difference you have between 16 and 26, really.
Stay together...it makes you happy. Put all decisions on having kids on the back burner (both of you have to agree to do this) and see what happens in 5 or 10 years.
posted by Kickstart70 at 9:05 AM on November 12, 2007
We married at 32 and when we were 36 we changed our minds. Now we have a great 17 month old daughter.
My point really is that thoughts, opinions and desires change dramatically through life. You're 26 now, and at 36 you'll barely be the same person. It's not all that different from the difference you have between 16 and 26, really.
Stay together...it makes you happy. Put all decisions on having kids on the back burner (both of you have to agree to do this) and see what happens in 5 or 10 years.
posted by Kickstart70 at 9:05 AM on November 12, 2007
One of your life objectives is "not having kids". Now while that is a non-action item of sorts (requires very little effort compared to its opposite), the achievement of that is something you should be actively pursuing. Which means making moves and choices that continually point you towards your goals. Better to live your dreams now rather than later...when they might be in danger of being thwarted.
posted by iamkimiam at 9:46 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by iamkimiam at 9:46 AM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
I never wanted kids. I didn't want them in my 20's, and now at fortymumble, I have not changed my mind one jot. So do be aware that not every kid-averse twentysomething becomes a broody thirtysomething.
Add this to the fact that he only wants biological kids. What if one or both of you proves infertile? If you do want a kid after all, but prove unable to have biological children, will he divorce you?
Consider what will probably happen if you don't change your mind and he doesn't change his, but you marry anyway:
- He stays childless, and resents you (bad news)
- You have a child, and resent him AND the child (much worse news and eventually a huge therapy bill for the kid)
- You divorce after five or ten years of marriage (which will be painful even if you don't have kids, especially if you really do love each other)
Even so, if you two really do love each other and are compatible in most ways, I would go for premarital counseling before throwing in the towel. This might uncover hidden issues and enable one or both of you to change. However, it might be that even after counseling there is a baby sword of Damocles hanging over your relationship. In that case, if I were you, I'd cut my losses, bite the bullet, and break up.
Finally, remember that if you do decide to have a baby, chances are it will be YOU who will have the primary caretaking role, and YOU who will have to cut back on or even sacrifice your career. Sad but true. If he wants a kid, it's only fair that he agree to uphold half the parenting responsibilities, and not be the only one to sacrifice career-wise.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:56 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Add this to the fact that he only wants biological kids. What if one or both of you proves infertile? If you do want a kid after all, but prove unable to have biological children, will he divorce you?
Consider what will probably happen if you don't change your mind and he doesn't change his, but you marry anyway:
- He stays childless, and resents you (bad news)
- You have a child, and resent him AND the child (much worse news and eventually a huge therapy bill for the kid)
- You divorce after five or ten years of marriage (which will be painful even if you don't have kids, especially if you really do love each other)
Even so, if you two really do love each other and are compatible in most ways, I would go for premarital counseling before throwing in the towel. This might uncover hidden issues and enable one or both of you to change. However, it might be that even after counseling there is a baby sword of Damocles hanging over your relationship. In that case, if I were you, I'd cut my losses, bite the bullet, and break up.
Finally, remember that if you do decide to have a baby, chances are it will be YOU who will have the primary caretaking role, and YOU who will have to cut back on or even sacrifice your career. Sad but true. If he wants a kid, it's only fair that he agree to uphold half the parenting responsibilities, and not be the only one to sacrifice career-wise.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:56 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
You know, if it weren't for this bit of your question:
I really don't want to move in with this guy, spend my twenties with him, and find myself dumped at 32 because I wouldn't have kids.
I'd say that given the biological realities involved, a nice solution would be to sit down with your boyfriend, lay out the question as you've laid it out here to us, and tell him that you're willing to continue dating, but it's his choice as to whether he wants to make that sacrifice (of potentially not having children), given that you might not ever change your mind. I mean, I definitely wouldn't just keep dating him without making it really, really explicit to him that he needs to make the choice to stay in the relationship given who you are now and what you see yourself wanting now. This has the advantage of potentially short-circuiting the resentment thing--or at least making you and him more aware of it and (in my mind) putting you in a clearer position to end the relationship if that resentment or pressure starts to leach into your interactions.
But if you really don't want to risk being dumped in 5 or 10 years over this, I think you should have a different conversation with him, one that lays out where you are and where you think he is, and lets him know that you think you need to end the relationship over this issue that seems pretty irresolvable given both of your current stances.
I'd like to encourage you to really examine that statement above, though. In a way, you've got the upper hand in this disagreement (in the sense that pregnancy happens in your body and at least as of 2007, no one can compel you to go through a pregnancy you don't want); you're satisfied with the current status quo of being with him and having no children. If anything, it seems that he's the one with the hard decision here, not you: he has to decide whether he can live with potentially not having children or whether that is a dealbreaker for him. If you really are happy with him and could see spending your life with him, I'd think it's worth the risk of being dumped at 32 (rather than 26) to see it out, as you've really got less to lose. But you've got to make it clear to him that you expect him to commit to who you are today and what you can promise now, not some fantasy that you'll magically change your mind. Resentment happens when people feel bullied or forced into situations they wouldn't have chosen, and forcing a hard choice on him might not be pleasant, but it is the right thing to do. (Much better than simply staying in the relationship and hoping for the best, when he's the one who will bear the disappointment of no children.)
posted by iminurmefi at 10:09 AM on November 12, 2007
I really don't want to move in with this guy, spend my twenties with him, and find myself dumped at 32 because I wouldn't have kids.
I'd say that given the biological realities involved, a nice solution would be to sit down with your boyfriend, lay out the question as you've laid it out here to us, and tell him that you're willing to continue dating, but it's his choice as to whether he wants to make that sacrifice (of potentially not having children), given that you might not ever change your mind. I mean, I definitely wouldn't just keep dating him without making it really, really explicit to him that he needs to make the choice to stay in the relationship given who you are now and what you see yourself wanting now. This has the advantage of potentially short-circuiting the resentment thing--or at least making you and him more aware of it and (in my mind) putting you in a clearer position to end the relationship if that resentment or pressure starts to leach into your interactions.
But if you really don't want to risk being dumped in 5 or 10 years over this, I think you should have a different conversation with him, one that lays out where you are and where you think he is, and lets him know that you think you need to end the relationship over this issue that seems pretty irresolvable given both of your current stances.
I'd like to encourage you to really examine that statement above, though. In a way, you've got the upper hand in this disagreement (in the sense that pregnancy happens in your body and at least as of 2007, no one can compel you to go through a pregnancy you don't want); you're satisfied with the current status quo of being with him and having no children. If anything, it seems that he's the one with the hard decision here, not you: he has to decide whether he can live with potentially not having children or whether that is a dealbreaker for him. If you really are happy with him and could see spending your life with him, I'd think it's worth the risk of being dumped at 32 (rather than 26) to see it out, as you've really got less to lose. But you've got to make it clear to him that you expect him to commit to who you are today and what you can promise now, not some fantasy that you'll magically change your mind. Resentment happens when people feel bullied or forced into situations they wouldn't have chosen, and forcing a hard choice on him might not be pleasant, but it is the right thing to do. (Much better than simply staying in the relationship and hoping for the best, when he's the one who will bear the disappointment of no children.)
posted by iminurmefi at 10:09 AM on November 12, 2007
No one believes a woman in her 20s who says she doesn't want children. My guess is that what's happening here is that he's assuming you will change your mind.
I think you need to give some serious thought to what "successful" means with this irreconcilable difference between you. Because that's what it is, unless you are sincerely open to the possibility that you will change your mind.
posted by caitlinb at 10:12 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
I think you need to give some serious thought to what "successful" means with this irreconcilable difference between you. Because that's what it is, unless you are sincerely open to the possibility that you will change your mind.
posted by caitlinb at 10:12 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
(I did not read most of the above)
Please end the relationship now. Very good friends of mine are going through the results of this right now, and it's not something I would wish on anyone (either adult or child).
He had a child to placate his wife (who, after many many years of not wanting kids due to an inability, found out that she could, and did want).
Currently, he is completely non-involved in his 1yr old, won't come near his wife anymore, and blames everything on her and the child.
Another friend of mine was married for years, when his wife decided she wanted children.. they broke up and remain the closest of friends.
posted by niteHawk at 10:27 AM on November 12, 2007
Please end the relationship now. Very good friends of mine are going through the results of this right now, and it's not something I would wish on anyone (either adult or child).
He had a child to placate his wife (who, after many many years of not wanting kids due to an inability, found out that she could, and did want).
Currently, he is completely non-involved in his 1yr old, won't come near his wife anymore, and blames everything on her and the child.
Another friend of mine was married for years, when his wife decided she wanted children.. they broke up and remain the closest of friends.
posted by niteHawk at 10:27 AM on November 12, 2007
Please add me to the women who never wanted kids in their 20s...or 30s, or now, in my 40s. I'm married to a wonderful guy, who feels the same way, and while we did have some serious conversations in the earlier years of our marriage ("Are you sure?" "Yes, are YOU sure?" "Yes!") we're happily childfree, busy, active, traveling, cat-owning middle-aged people who've rarely, if ever, questioned that choice. And I would advise you to gently part from your boyfriend, and enjoy life while you keep an eye out for that other guy who feels the same way you do. You don't want to live with the kind of resentment - either way - that can happen when you compromise on something this huge. Good luck to you!
posted by TochterAusElysium at 10:47 AM on November 12, 2007
posted by TochterAusElysium at 10:47 AM on November 12, 2007
It seems ridiculous to end a happy and successful relationship because of potential problems years down the road, but at the same time, I don't really see any of the other options working.
It is not.
Human beings think in the long term - we don't like to stick with a dead-end job even if it's perfectly pleasant in the day-to-day. You don't have a happy and successful relationship if you can't speak about your future together. You have a friends-with-benefits type scenario, if you know you'll eventually split. You can enjoy that for the moment, but you should certainly address the real state of things.
Now, in that analogy, you might stay with some job you really like in hopes that one day the company will change and there will be more opportunities - but that's a risk. Here, your only hope is that you or he change your attitude toward children. So it's up to you to decide how fundamentally important the relationship is to you. You can take the risk that something will change within one of you, if you're truly, profoundly happy. But different views of the future is a perfectly, absolutely legitimate reason to end a serious relationship, if you both think you really know where you stand here.
posted by mdn at 10:58 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
It is not.
Human beings think in the long term - we don't like to stick with a dead-end job even if it's perfectly pleasant in the day-to-day. You don't have a happy and successful relationship if you can't speak about your future together. You have a friends-with-benefits type scenario, if you know you'll eventually split. You can enjoy that for the moment, but you should certainly address the real state of things.
Now, in that analogy, you might stay with some job you really like in hopes that one day the company will change and there will be more opportunities - but that's a risk. Here, your only hope is that you or he change your attitude toward children. So it's up to you to decide how fundamentally important the relationship is to you. You can take the risk that something will change within one of you, if you're truly, profoundly happy. But different views of the future is a perfectly, absolutely legitimate reason to end a serious relationship, if you both think you really know where you stand here.
posted by mdn at 10:58 AM on November 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I really don't want to move in with this guy, spend my twenties with him, and find myself dumped at 32 because I wouldn't have kids.
yep. Welcome to my reality, circa 2003. This is exactly what happened in my case. I spent almost ten years with that guy, thinking somehow your Scenarios 2-6 would magically evolve and we'd be all Happily Ever After.
I never, ever changed my mind about having vs. not having kids. He never budged on his insistence. Eventually that Big Incompatibility, plus other incompatibilities, ended our relationship, but not after the whole deal irrevocably poisoned our friendship. We were both in part to blame for our increasing incompatibility/lack of respect for each other, but at the core, I believe this was mainly due to our assumptions that "meh, we're not going to end up married anyhow because of the Kid Thing, so we don't really need to bother working any of this out...".
I'd urge you not to go there, mainly because I now see that my x would have been a far better close platonic friend than boyfriend.
I hope I'm not projecting too much of my experience onto your situation, but it all feels very familiar. I honestly recommend breaking up sooner than later.
Caveat: I might not be in the really cool place I am now, with the incredibly joyous relationship that I have found, had I not been forced to completely reevaluate my life in my mid-thirties.
posted by lonefrontranger at 5:16 PM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
yep. Welcome to my reality, circa 2003. This is exactly what happened in my case. I spent almost ten years with that guy, thinking somehow your Scenarios 2-6 would magically evolve and we'd be all Happily Ever After.
I never, ever changed my mind about having vs. not having kids. He never budged on his insistence. Eventually that Big Incompatibility, plus other incompatibilities, ended our relationship, but not after the whole deal irrevocably poisoned our friendship. We were both in part to blame for our increasing incompatibility/lack of respect for each other, but at the core, I believe this was mainly due to our assumptions that "meh, we're not going to end up married anyhow because of the Kid Thing, so we don't really need to bother working any of this out...".
I'd urge you not to go there, mainly because I now see that my x would have been a far better close platonic friend than boyfriend.
I hope I'm not projecting too much of my experience onto your situation, but it all feels very familiar. I honestly recommend breaking up sooner than later.
Caveat: I might not be in the really cool place I am now, with the incredibly joyous relationship that I have found, had I not been forced to completely reevaluate my life in my mid-thirties.
posted by lonefrontranger at 5:16 PM on November 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
While it is absolutely fine for you to not want kids at all, it sounds like you are willing to consider kids, as you brought up adoption as something you might think about.
Would you find the idea of kids more palatable or exciting if you were not the homemaker who took on the primary job of raising them? It seems reasonable to ask your boyfriend if he'd be willing to quit his job and stay home for a few years with your (potential) kids.
I don't know your reasons for wanting to stay child-free, but not wanting to give up a career is fine. And asking the boyfriend to take on a larger portion of the commitment for something he wants more is also fine.
posted by Margalo Epps at 6:16 PM on November 13, 2007
Would you find the idea of kids more palatable or exciting if you were not the homemaker who took on the primary job of raising them? It seems reasonable to ask your boyfriend if he'd be willing to quit his job and stay home for a few years with your (potential) kids.
I don't know your reasons for wanting to stay child-free, but not wanting to give up a career is fine. And asking the boyfriend to take on a larger portion of the commitment for something he wants more is also fine.
posted by Margalo Epps at 6:16 PM on November 13, 2007
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I guess you really need examine how strongly it is that you don't want to have kids and try and figure out why that is. And he needs to do the same about why he wants kids. After that you might be able to find some middle ground, or you may not.
Also, I don't think waiting around hoping one of your feelings change is a very good idea. While it could happen, and does sometimes, I don't think it is terribly likely to.
posted by whoaali at 9:30 PM on November 11, 2007 [2 favorites]