How to get vegetarians and carnivores to work together?

November 7, 2007 8:34 AM

How to ease tension between vegetarians and non-vegetarians?

I work with local food and sustainable agriculture and consistently the most awkward issue that comes up is what to do about the whole meat thing.

The local food movement in the area is about equally divided between veggies and non-veggies and I would like to bring both groups together to work on some very basic projects I think everyone can agree on. The problem is that the two groups are often hostile to each other.

One group held a goat roast recently and no... no vegetarians came. The other holds events at a vegan restaurant and it's hard to get the other group to come, because frankly the food is often a bit bland (I say this with all due respect to vegans and I have had much much better vegan food in the past, so I know it's possible) and some meat eaters don't believe that a meal is complete without meat.

I work with both groups and go to both types of events, but I want to be able to create an event where everyone feels welcome. Is there a way to do this? Foodies and veggies, what is the best way to bring you all together?

posted by melissam to human relations (42 comments total)

The best way would be to plan an activity that has nothing to do with food, as this seems to be the crux of their disagreement, no?
posted by dead_ at 8:36 AM on November 7, 2007 [2 favorites]

Pot luck? (Data point: meat-eater married to a vegetarian; our Thanksgivings always have both vegetarians and meat-eaters, and they're potluck style - of course, neither group has a "point" to make about their "lifestyle" - we just get together to eat and drink and be merry, so YMM, as always, V.)
posted by rtha at 8:39 AM on November 7, 2007

I've been on both sides. I was a vegetarian for 15 years and have gone back to being an omnivore. I think dead has the best suggestion: no food. Especially since you're dealing with the vegan aspect. Pot luck might work, but you'd have to be very, very clear that everyone who participates needs to be respectful of all the choices represented.

At some point you may have to say, "Everyone needs to get along, no matter what." They don't have to like each other, but they need to be civil.
posted by cooker girl at 8:43 AM on November 7, 2007

Have them all get together at a bar. Some beers and lots of wines are going organic and don't include isinglass or other animal-based additives. Sneak in a bag of pretzels or peanuts and have a nice, low-key drinking session.

(To be honest, this is my answer to most problems, so take it for what it's worth.)
posted by cog_nate at 8:53 AM on November 7, 2007

There are things you can do to reduce the possibility for friction but in the long run, the groups need to be committed to working together. Franky, most food served at meetings isn't great -- you put up with it and get on with the task at hand.
posted by winston at 9:01 AM on November 7, 2007

No food is really a great way to go.

Or, if there are vegan-friendly, but not exclusively vegan, restaurants in your area?

Or maybe meet for breakfast? Meat seems like a less-important component of breakfast for most people. (This is assuming the vegans won't protest milk and sugar for other people's coffee; if you've got people who will protest other people's coffee, stay away from breakfast!)
posted by occhiblu at 9:07 AM on November 7, 2007

The example you gave is a bit extreme - as an omnivore, I'm happy with plenty of vegetarian choices but I can imagine I might not find tons of appealing options at what you describe as a mediocre vegan restaurant. On the other hand, I can see a goat roast being a bit, well, visually extreme for someone who doesn't eat meat.

If you had an event where you provided appealing options for everyone, do you think the different factions would still be openly hostile? If so, maybe a happy hour type event - drinks, chips & dip, etc. - would be best.
posted by lalex at 9:07 AM on November 7, 2007

Are they vegans or vegetarians?

If they are vegetarians, I suggest the non-food activity with, possibly, a dessert potluck. Then the vegetarians and meat eaters can share each other's foods.

If they are vegans, no potluck option would really work. Since the benefit of a potluck would involve both sides sharing food no matter who brought it.

An nice activity might be something food-related that would interest both sides equally. An olive oil tasting might be fun.
posted by necessitas at 9:12 AM on November 7, 2007

Or maybe meet for breakfast? Meat seems like a less-important component of breakfast for most people. (This is assuming the vegans won't protest milk and sugar for other people's coffee; if you've got people who will protest other people's coffee, stay away from breakfast!)

Eggs, bacon, sausage, butter, and possibly cheese for omelettes might all make breakfast difficult for vegans. Maybe a pancake breakfast? You'd still have the butter issue, but you could just use margarine or another butter substitute.
posted by LionIndex at 9:15 AM on November 7, 2007

The examples you gave are really extreme. I eat meat and even I wouldn't go to a goat roast. Has it really not occurred to you to remove food from the equation? What about a coffee shop? A movie? Go to the park for the afternoon, or hiking.

If the point is to unite them where food is present, have everyone over to your house and serve vegan and non-vegan food? Or have a potluck and everyone can bring what they like to eat. Or, find a restaurant that serves both vegan and meat-based food. If you live in a town with multiple vegan restaurants, surely there are places that serve both.
posted by boomchicka at 9:19 AM on November 7, 2007

I would like to bring both groups together to work on some very basic projects I think everyone can agree on.

Not being snarky, but why do you want to do this? Are there good reasons to make this happen or is it just something you'd like to see?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:22 AM on November 7, 2007

This is a sticky situation, because I always recommend food for community development events and meetings. Here, the issue at hand is food, and so it gets uncomfortable.

I wouldn't go with a potluck, because someone from one side or the other is bound to bring something objectionable. Breakfast is out, because one of your non-vegans will order eggs and bacon.

Your solution is either a) no food or b) doing something with munchies and or desserts. Since I'm a strong believer in having food at these types of events - eating is a very social thing for us, and tends to break down some barriers - I'd go with either of those. But the big thing to get right is for you to bring the food. This will ensure that it is both vegan-friendly and tasty; it also puts you in a position where both groups feel they can have some faith in what you are doing.
posted by never used baby shoes at 9:23 AM on November 7, 2007

Find a restaurant that has tasty veggie and meat options, and go there. If the problem is just that people are having trouble finding food they like, that ought to solve it. If you think people are going to be jerks about it either way, no food or chips/dip might be a better way to go.

The bigger problem I see is that the two groups are otherwise hostile to each other. What needs to be worked on are the deeper issues with factionalism, which is going to be a more difficult process than deciding about what food to serve.
posted by streetdreams at 9:25 AM on November 7, 2007

Asian restaurants often have lots of flavorful and tasty options for both vegans and non-vegans (some Thai restaurants have everything from tofu satay to delicious tofu curries.) You do need to find a restaurant that's sufficiently aware of vegan/vegetarian issues that they can assure you that, for instance, their soup contains no chicken broth and their curry paste no shrimp or fish. Chinese Buddhist restaurants often serve meat-substitute dishes that get glowing reviews from local carnivores.

My theory is that explicitly "vegan" restaurants are often trying to be extremely healthy as well as meatless, which leads to the blandness issue. Buddhist restaurants only worry about the meatless part.

I've also seen basic barbecues work out well, with vegan/vegetarian hotdogs and burgers, vegetable kebabs, and separate grills for vegan and carnivore food (to prevent contaminating the veggie burgers with meat particles.) Get a variety of veggie burgers--even my carnivore friends like the Morningstar Farms Tomato and Basil variety.
posted by fermion at 9:27 AM on November 7, 2007

Could you have a series of food events based around specific local ingredients, and host potlucks catering to those ingredients? So in the summer you could have a corn and tomatoes event. Everyone brings a dish that highlights corn, tomatoes or both. It's OK to have meat or not, just make sure to list what's contained in the recipe so nobody eats something that violates their personal food rules. No more than one in six or seven events should be meat-focused, and even those events might be done in a way that is welcoming to non-vegan vegetarians. Goat week could include roasted goat, but also recipes with feta, goat milk, etc, etc.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 9:43 AM on November 7, 2007

I think the vegans are being unrealistic. There's no good reason to force non-vegans to eat vegan food. The vegans are the ones with the special diets, not the rest of us. They should pack their own lunch if they believe they will be put in an environment where they will be tempted to violate their strict ideology. They absolutely need to be more considerate if they really care about the project and the non-vegan members.

That said, you can get good vegetarian and regular fare at Chinese restaurants. Vegan fare, well, like I said, pack a lunch. If they are unwilling to even do this then pick events that are not food centered.
posted by damn dirty ape at 10:00 AM on November 7, 2007

Asian restaurants often have lots of flavorful and tasty options for both vegans and non-vegans (some Thai restaurants have everything from tofu satay to delicious tofu curries.)
If there aren't any vegans, then a good Indian restaurant would be another good choice, especially one that gets alot of business from the local Indian population,. They will usually have good veggie options (in the lacto- is okay sense).
posted by cabingirl at 10:00 AM on November 7, 2007

I think the vegans are being unrealistic ... They absolutely need to be more considerate ... The vegans are the ones with the special diets, not the rest of us

And this is why we can't have nice things.
posted by dead_ at 10:05 AM on November 7, 2007 [4 favorites]

have a hotdog, hamburger and chili event.

with tofu-based hotdog, hamburgers and chili, of course.
posted by Mr_Crazyhorse at 10:13 AM on November 7, 2007

The secret is to make the mutually-beneficial projects the focus of the meeting. Meet at a coffeeshop that's vegan friendly (some vegan biscotti or whatever—I hope I'm not imposing my college-town bias on what should be available), and make the presentation emphasizing how both groups will win. That's what this is about: Local food winning, not sectarian bullshit.

Unfortunately, you're now dealing with the primary failing of ideologues and leftists: factionalism. I bet that even the vegans are only tenuously aligned.
posted by klangklangston at 10:19 AM on November 7, 2007

Yeah, if there are vegans in the group, definitely don't go out for breakfast. As a former vegan, I can vouch for breakfast, at least at places that don't specifically make a point of catering to vegans, as a very unfriendly meal.
posted by ITheCosmos at 10:28 AM on November 7, 2007

I don't think this is every going to work out, both groups seem to be specifically trying to exclude/offend the other - a goat roast?! If that's not saying 'veggies not welcome here', I don't know what is. There's no reason why the meat-eaters can't eat vegan food - its just 1 meal - but I'm assuming the veggies and vegans didn't expect them to want to attend.
*Most* restaurants provide vegetarian/vegan options - these 2 groups just don't want to meet in the middle.
posted by missmagenta at 10:33 AM on November 7, 2007

The Omnivore's Dilemma has a pretty moderate take on vegetarianism (i.e. good idea, but not for everyone) and is more generally about local food and sustainable agriculture, so maybe you could organize them all to read it together. This shirt summarizes two sides of the argument humorously enough that everyone may enjoy it.
posted by scottreynen at 10:39 AM on November 7, 2007

Take them bowling.

But seriously, if you want to get them together to work on something, have tasks and an agenda (and beverages and perhaps vegan cookies if people must eat. Or a make your own burrito/sandwich buffet with the meat at a table away from the other stuff).

Getting them together without something to do, actively focus on, is a recipe for in-fighting.
posted by Gucky at 10:47 AM on November 7, 2007

If you are doing agricultural things, you might consider hosting hands-on events such as organic gardening sessions. You might even be able to get away with animal based events if you are careful about them (ie not about how to raise and slaughter, but how to house and feed and care for humanely). A lot of the vegetarians I know aren't particularly opposed to meat and animal products just for the sake of being opposed to them. A lot of them have real concerns about how to integrate animals into their lives and have a true understanding of the sacrifices these animals make for us. Many people simply don't want to be detached from their food sources - so showing people locally sustainable options might be a nice way to promote greater understanding on both sides. Your omnivores learn a bit about the life-cycle of the animals they eat and alternatives to the corporate livestock system. And your veggies get to learn about organic options that make them feel more comfortable with the system as a whole.
posted by greekphilosophy at 10:48 AM on November 7, 2007

The breakfast suggestion was poorly explained; I meant that a vegetarian place for breakfast was unlikely to offend the meat-eaters. Even my father, who really believes it's not a meal without meat, and preferably also potatoes, is totally happy at vegetarian breakfast places.
posted by occhiblu at 10:51 AM on November 7, 2007

I'm a serious omnivore (organs? Bring 'em on!) with vegan and vegetarian friends. I'm interested in local food/sustainable agriculture issues. So, I'm pretty much your target audience here.

You need non-food-centric events. Your two camps fundamentally disagree to a religious extent. Coming up with ideas for such foodless events will require creativity, of course, as food is usually the great unifier for social events. In this case, it's the great divider. May as well acknowledge this without any pussy-footing.

You'll need to maintain your cool and a wicked sense of humor, if possible. Perhaps formulate a tongue-in-cheek checklist of "Quick! Change the subject!" suggested topics in case the discussion accidentally turns to the lip-smacking awesomeness of roasted goat or the best brands of soy cheese.

In fact, I propose institution of this house rule and a corollary to quash any bubbling arguments:

* There shalt not be engagement in the The PETA vs PETA Debate (i.e. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals vs People Eating Tasty Animals.) Agree to disagree, folks.

* Working Together For The Common Good. Repeat like a mantra. (Is this issue furthering our goals? No? Then drop it and rant on your blog later if you want.)
posted by desuetude at 10:51 AM on November 7, 2007

BEER.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 10:56 AM on November 7, 2007

Why can't you have a sports event? You can set aside a decent amount of time for anything from a softball game to a bowling match, competitive chess to hockey. Set aside a half-hour before or after said event; people can form teams based on their food preferences and name them accordingly, since they are already acting like antagonizers towards each other. Encourage everyone to bring different beverages and some fruit to share amongst the group... this should encourage healthy competition and cooperation for a common goal without icky food arguments erupting.

Spend the half-hour before or after planning the co-op events you have in mind. When you give people a sense of being on a team already, and the motivation to work hard to out-do each other, it's not that much harder to extrapolate that energy as a group to focus on larger goals, whether it's creating a new Farmer's Market, organizing a recycling drop location or building a playground for neighborhood kids.

Just survey each group to find which sports hold the most appeal and go from there.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 11:04 AM on November 7, 2007

I married the granddaughter of a Sicilian. I think you could offer up an Italian solution:

Pasta Night!

You could just do a simple noodle (linguine, fettuccine, etc.) and have a variety of sauces to choose from.
posted by po822000 at 11:07 AM on November 7, 2007

I know that a lot of pastas are made with eggs.

Is there anyway a third group can be introduced where you come together? The only ones that come to mind are fruitarians.
posted by spec80 at 11:22 AM on November 7, 2007

Hey, guys, this is about people actually being able to relax and enjoy themselves, not "lump it" or "pack their own". I think a lot of vegetarians might have a hard time relaxing in the presence of meat. They just think too much about where it's been.

At the same time, while meat eaters would be fine in a meal without meat, it's true that a meal that's "bland" or "missing something" might make the whole thing more of a chore than a fun relaxing time.

So, what you might want is some kind of event where, while food might be part of it, it's not the focus. Maybe a picnic that's mainly about volleyball/badminton/sack races, where people can pack their own meals, but _everyone's_ doing that.

Or an outdoor concert. Something like that.

You can provide vegan or vegetarian food -- you don't even have to advertise it as "vegetarian", but if you list the specific dishes that will be available, vegetarians will read and be excited.

If you want interesting vegetarian/vegan food, you might have to think creatively. Indian is good. Moroccan, Ethiopian. If you use very fresh ingredients, black bean burritos can be awesome.

If you're not going vegan, how about fresh homemade ice cream for dessert? If you are, how about fruits fresh from the harvest?
posted by amtho at 11:41 AM on November 7, 2007

Yeah, the thing with breakfast is that you can make a specifically veggie / vegan breakfast that other people won't feel is "missing" some major component, whereas dinner that skips the meat will sometimes be seen as just a bunch of side dishes to a meat eater ("where's the beef?"). So you can have everyone eat veggie without making everyone feel harrassed or obligated or just generally under-fed.

But it sounds like the problem runs deeper than pragmatic concerns. How many people are with you on this? As others have pointed out, it sounds as if each side is really trying to make a point, and maybe they don't want to ignore what they see as a fundamental component of the movement. If the vegetarians think that meat-eating goes against the sustainable living thing, and the meat eaters think the vegetarians haven't woken up to the organic meat movement, then you may have a real philosophical divide that should be addressed.

I think you can create less extreme events (serve chili, with two type offered, one with organic beef and one with a vegan substitute. How hard is that?) but the fact that the events which have been planned have tended toward much less welcoming scenarios shows how members of your group feel about the issue. Maybe some reasonable discussion and in general an attempt to work on levels of maturity and respect is the way to go.
posted by mdn at 11:55 AM on November 7, 2007

I went to a hippie college with a lot of ovo-lacto vegetarians and a few vegans. I used to be ovo-lacto vegetarian myself; now I'm a picky local-eating omnivore. What made our dinner parties work:

1. Pesto. Everybody loved pesto. Boiling up a pot of egg-free noodles for the vegans and keeping the parmesan cheese on the side was not a big deal. If you wanted to do a little more work, and your vegans will stand for it, a pot of meat sauce is good for a crowd.
   
2. In winter, big pots of black bean soup spiked with chile peppers and a little unsweetened cocoa, with chunks of homemade bread on the side.
   
3. Potlucks. The key here was organization, even to the point of color-coding with little stickers. We generally had the veggie food on a different table than the nonveggie food, just so nobody'd have to ask.

It's the local food movement; I think your events almost have to be food-centric, or at least have a good strong food presence. If you have omnivores who will be reasonably polite about a meal or two that isn't centered around big chunks of meat, and you have vegans who will be reasonably polite about the presence of animal products in other people's meals (and particularly about the smell), I think you can make it work. If people aren't willing to be a little flexible, well, that's just how it is. But I don't think that one goat roast and a dinner at a bland vegan place really show that people won't bend a wee bit.
posted by sculpin at 12:14 PM on November 7, 2007

Come to think of it, if I were putting an event like this together, I know exactly what I'd do -- I'd talk to the local guy who carts a wood-fired oven around on a trailer, and we'd all get together and learn to make pizzas the traditional way with a blazingly hot wood-fired oven. I did this on Sunday, and it wasn't until I was biking home that I realized that everything we'd made was vegan. I think even a fairly hardened meat-eater can get excited over food he makes with his own hands.
posted by sculpin at 12:22 PM on November 7, 2007

A goat roast? For godsake. Who does that? Talk about a confrontational manner of conducting a gathering. That's about 10,000 leagues beyond your average friendly meal where vegetarians are only able to eat the salad. I suspect they didn't want vegetarians to come. And it almost certainly has little to do with proving a point -- I personally would find the smell and sight of that offensive and nauseating and simply couldn't enjoy myself in its presence. Roasting an entire animal impaled on a stick is an extremely hostile move on their part. "I wonder why our christian neighbours didn't come to our party? We only burned a few crosses..."

As far as I'm concerned, everyone can eat vegan food, but not everyone can eat -- what is goat meat called? These people have no interest in broadening their horizons. If they did they would have held an event that did not intentionally alienate vegetarians.
posted by loiseau at 12:38 PM on November 7, 2007 [3 favorites]

Well, I honestly don't think the people who planned the goat roast were being hostile. I think they really did want to do it..and you know what...I tried it and it was the best meat I've ever had. I have little tolerance for people who eat burgers, but can't stand the thought of an actual dead animal that looks like an animal, but that is another subject.

The projects we would like to work on include community gardens and conferences, so they are things that appeal to a broad number of people.

I think the best suggestions are the coffee and bar ideas. I think I could probably get a local bar to put together a vegan beer menu. Also, perhaps a visit to a local vineyard might be great.

Honestly, I'd like to keep the vegan lunches too, but gently ask them to improve the flavor of the food.
posted by melissam at 12:49 PM on November 7, 2007

Where are you, melissaam? People here might be able to recommend specific bars, coffee shops, etc. in your area.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 12:58 PM on November 7, 2007

It's an interesting dilemma, because in fact if you want these people to work together you have to get them to respect each others' food choices. I mean, a goat roast (presumably with a local goat raised on a small farm in a humane and sustainable manner) is in fact not too far out of line with the species of vegetarianism that's more focused on the environment and being conscious of what you're consuming. If the vegetarians can't appreciate what all sorts of local farming does for sustainability, then your cause is probably lost.

So I vote for just having an omnivorous event with plenty of stuff for veggies and nonveggies. You may as well put it up front and on the table, as it were.
posted by footnote at 3:49 PM on November 7, 2007

a note of caution. i see that you have marked the suggestion to go to a bar as a favorite. many beer and wines are not vegetarian/vegan as finings are used to clarify both of them.
posted by phil at 4:30 PM on November 7, 2007

PRO SKUB
posted by p3on at 5:59 PM on November 7, 2007

@footnote: while I'm not a vegetarian for ethical reasons, the fact that I've not eaten meat for some years has got me unused to the idea of meat/dead animals. While I'm philosophically OK with the idea of people raising/eating well-treated goats, actually being in the presence of a roasting goat would be pretty unsettling, and I don't think I'd be able to think about anything else.

IOW, I'm OK with them having a goat roast, but I really don't want to hear about it. If I were starving, I'd probably partake, but it would take a while for me to get used to it. And I'm probably going to have nightmares about this tonight.

Again, not ethically or philosophically opposed, just not used to the idea. Also I think goats are cute, like kitties and puppies, so this probably adds to the problem. (yes, I know I know nothing about goats, I'm just explaining).

I'm only explaining this in the hopes that you'll understand why goat roast = not OK for everyone. It's not cold logic, unless you consider emotions logically.

If the goat roast people were just having their own event, not as part of an inclusive organization, then that's fine. But they need to realize that a lot of people will find it off-putting, and that's OK and unavoidable, really.
posted by amtho at 6:26 PM on November 7, 2007