So, like, what'd think of Ginsburg's totally awesome dissent yesterday?!?!

August 9, 2007 9:46 PM

How do I relate to my middle aged co-workers and stop saying things like "That's cool" and "Awesome, no problem"?

I have a real problem making "mature" work appropriate chit chat. As a result, I tend to freeze up and not say much, which is you know awesome for networking. I actually find small talk difficult in general, but I find it basically impossible with older people. Particularly with the older secretaries and soccer mom types. I'm not from the area, I don't follow sports, I'm really into modern art, I grew up overseas, etc etc... So relating to the common man, I'm ashamed to say, is not my strong point.

I also have a problem expressing approval or enthusiasm without anything that doesn't come off as Valley speak, like we won the case: That's awesome! Or cool, I'll get right on it!

On top of it all I am extremely liberal and have a very dark sense of humor. I am pretty good at not letting this side of myself show in the workplace (unless I'm around co-workers I know very well), but I feel the need to really suppress my personality at work. As a result, people tend to think I am very reserved and shy, which I'm really not. I really want to be able to relate to these people, but I constantly find myself with nothing to say.

posted by whoaali to work & money (39 comments total)

Well, you can't really assume that you don't share any interests or common background with these people, for one thing. It's not like there's just one road to "older secretary" or "soccer mom", and highly likely that some of them are far more well-rounded and worldly than you are.

Don't lump them all in as a certain type based on their appearance, age, current job and location. Assume they're all interesting individuals, treat them as such, and chances are a few of them will turn out to be totally bad-ass.

I seriously wouldn't worry overmuch about your speech patterns. My 55-year-old mother describes things as "awesome" and "cool", and she's a crazy cat lady. A very fascinating one, once you allow yourself to get to know her.
posted by padraigin at 9:54 PM on August 9, 2007 [2 favorites]

My 50-year-old parents say "cool." Are you sure it's really a problem?

I once had to transcribe about twenty interviews. And I would set up keyboard shortcuts for verbal tics, from "you know" to "I don't know" to "like." Every generation had their own, and it was when I realized the 70-year-olds had common speech patterns that I decided I wouldn't worry about how I talked.
posted by salvia at 9:57 PM on August 9, 2007

Hmm, but on your broader point, maybe ask about the people in their lives? Everyone loves to talk about their children, and maybe you can relate better to what some 55-year-old's 30-year-old daughter is going through than to the 55-year-old herself.
posted by salvia at 9:59 PM on August 9, 2007

Labeling them like that may have been a misnomer, but these are people I have very well confirmed I have nothing in common with. The dumbfounded look when I say I don't know anything about the Mets or Yankees and the sort of freaked out expression when I tell them where I went to college/high school tends to send the conversation to a screaming halt. I try to deflect the "Where are you from?" question but it rarely works out well...
posted by whoaali at 10:00 PM on August 9, 2007

In my campaign to rid myself of valley speak, I have learned to replace "cool" with "great." Also, I have found that a lot of older folks are just as, if not more well-read, well-traveled and experienced than I am; but are more modest in discussing such things because they don't want to seem like bores.
posted by pluckysparrow at 10:02 PM on August 9, 2007 [1 favorite]

Salvia: I just worry is it really appropriate to ask if someone has children, is married, etc if they don't bring it up first? At least at work? I worry about asking the three time divorced 50 year old woman with no kids (regrettably) the wrong question in ignorance.
posted by whoaali at 10:03 PM on August 9, 2007

I'm very close to 40, and I'd probably get along just fine with you.

A lot depends on your company and geographical area; if you're in a fundamentally liberal area, you'll have an easier time than in a primarily conservative one.

Overall, I've always found that I do best when I'm most clearly who I really am; trying to be what I think other people want just doesn't work very well. My idea of what they want is never accurate, and it changes over time.... trying to adapt to a changing perception of what they want is a good way to get snarled in knots.

Networking means staying in touch with people you like and who you work well with... you're gathering a social group you'll work with for many years, very possibly moving from job to job.

Be who you ARE and you'll be much more likely to attract people that will stick.
posted by Malor at 10:07 PM on August 9, 2007

You can always turn that kind of thing around. You can get away with totally rookie questions that allow the person to talk about themselves and their experiences and leave you with the easy job of just being interested, which ironically will make you seem like a great conversationalist.

Try things like "No, seriously, where I grew up we followed X sport. Are you a lifelong Mets/Yankees fan? Did you go to games as a kid? I once heard that American kids do blank in high school, is that true? Is it really as rough paying for college here as I've heard? What's that like?" etc.

Chit chat doesn't have to go on forever, which is why it's called small talk. And people like to tell you things you don't know, so that's an easy way to make small talk.
posted by padraigin at 10:09 PM on August 9, 2007

You are working in a law firm and you need to learn to talk like an adult. Some ignorant mod decided to prune my last comment, which may have sounded like a joke, but essentially said the same thing. Stop talking like a kid and start talking like a grown up. This is especially important at a law firm. If you want to revert to the vernacular when hanging out with your dudes, fine. At work, talk like a law professor - stand up and make a noise like a lawyer.
posted by caddis at 10:19 PM on August 9, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm in my 50's and one of my most used words is "cool." Another one if "neat." These are the ones I've used since I was in my 20's and I guess they stuck. (I never got into "groovy" though, thank goodness.
posted by la petite marie at 10:25 PM on August 9, 2007

I had the same problem several years ago when I started working in a new environment, after being used to being surrounded by young males in the military. I was the only military guy in my joint military/civilian office, so I felt kind of alienated and just, you know, weird. At first I thought the exact same thing you write in your question.

Turns out, they were kind of trying to watch themselves around me, too, until we all got comfortable with each other. I found that they enjoyed the way I talked naturally. They likened it to having a fluent, but non-native english speaker around - different word choices, slight accent. Cute, not annoying.

However, it did highlight to me how much I talked like you describe, and it started to sound ridiculous (to me). I just tried to imagine how they would say the same thing and say it like that instead, almost like learning another language. I think most of them ended up appropriating some of my figures of speech as well. We all blended together.

I don't think you should worry about it, unless it sounds funny to you or unless your boss expresses some concern that you sound unprofessional. You got hired in the first place, though, right?

As for what to talk about - you have nothing in common with them. Which means, their lives and interests are totally different from yours. Doesn't that make you curious? So Betsy likes needlepoint. What's she made? Is it hard? What makes a good needlepointer better than a bad one? What's she making now/next? Maybe you could try it some time.

Also, the 3-time divorced 50-year-old has learned to answer that question. Don't worry about it, unless she gives you the don't-want-to-talk-about-it signal.
posted by ctmf at 10:29 PM on August 9, 2007

There is a fair chance that they're interested in you just being you. Having some younger people in the workplace is an easy way to keep in touch with things like quirks of different generations, so to speak. Most people like to feel they understand and can communicate with Kids Of Today, and the only way to do that is to be around such people - which is something that many people don't get much opportunity, especially moms who spend much of their life dealing with either kids or other parents, meeting few people in-between.
posted by -harlequin- at 10:36 PM on August 9, 2007

You do realize that all of those 50-plus year olds grew up in the 60's -- you know -- sex, drugs, rock and roll, Woodstock, the summer of love, Haight-Ashbury. I doubt they are seriously put off by an occasional "cool" or "awesome" unless that is is the extent of your vocabulary. Perhaps you are feeling a little paranoid because of your overseas background. Most people I know are fascinated and eager to learn about foreign experiences. On the other hand, I detect a hint of a condescending attitude about the "common man." You have to be genuinely interested in other people and eager to listen to their experiences to have a conversation with them. If you really are uninterested in their lives, then I'm not surprised you have little to say. Many young people are totally convinced that their elders are stupid and boring and perhaps there is nothing you can do about it until you age a bit.
posted by JackFlash at 11:05 PM on August 9, 2007 [5 favorites]

whoaali, good point about the wanting-to-be-sensitive. I stick with super-general stuff "what'd you do this weekend?" until something like "took the kids to the park" comes out. I also go with "where did you grow up? what was it like?" It's basically for my own good -- even when I find certain people's opinions boring, I get interested in the story of their life and why they are the way they are. Even when people's politics are alien to me, or their interests boring to me, I can still relate if they're talking about either fundamental human emotions or the mundane activities and dilemmas of daily life (proud / worried about someone's health / having to move and needing to decide what to keep and what to throw away / enjoying the autumn leaves).

There's also something to it about attitude. I've been watching the good conversationalists in my office, and it seems that what motivates them is not "oh shoot, this is awkward," or "I hope they like me," but "I want to be polite and make this person feel at ease." In other words, the conversation is an act of courtesy and of wanting to be a good host, a gift from you, not a test of you (of whether you can do and say exactly the right thing, whether you fit in).
posted by salvia at 11:54 PM on August 9, 2007 [4 favorites]

People seem to be wired to learn the conventions of speech in their environment. If you want to adapt, you are probably going to have to loosen up, show some of your cards, and make a little small talk. People have a tenancy to respond to passion, so try and find a way to share some of yours, and open yourself to the things they care about.

Be a human. These are people you spend a significant portion of your waking hours with. Deciding you have nothing in common with your coworkers, closing yourself off from them, and wanting to find a way to talk to them to improve your career prospects sounds repulsive and mercenary to me. Is that who you are?
posted by Good Brain at 12:12 AM on August 10, 2007

Read aloud, even to yourself, as practice in improving your vocabulary. Without any base of scientific evidence to support this contention, I believe that fluid speech, particularly social speech, is a pattern of learned habits. Most people have a writing vocabulary several times the size of their speaking vocabulary; clearly, knowing words is not enough to get them used in speech. To be a fluent speaker, you have to practice speaking fluently, and reading aloud is one of the best ways of getting that practice, particularly if you read good material.

Once you train your breathing and speech muscles out of habitual short pauses, and overuse of time filling interjections like "awesome" and "cool" and "umm," your ability to think on your feet will begin to be informed, to some degree, by the very muscle memory of fluent speech. You'll come to find that you are able to relax, and speak in complete sentences, that express your originality and complexity, and you won't need, or even like, the social reinforcement of "Valley speak" speech mannerisms.

You'll have found your own, true voice, at last.
posted by paulsc at 3:10 AM on August 10, 2007 [3 favorites]

You'll have found your own, true voice, at last.

Eh. Put me in the group that thinks that thinks phrases like "like" and "you know" are just as much a part of person's voice as the rest of what they're saying. I remember reading in Pinker's The Language Instinct that when the Nixon tapes were transcribed and printed word for word, people were surprised to see just how far spoken language differs from the written and how it's largely populated with "ums" and "you know"s. And, don't forget, this is a president we're talking about, and a reasonably articulate one at that.

The way that you have fulfilling social interactions with people is by being nice. Basically, that's it. Don't worry that your way of talking is different than theirs. If a colleague wins a case and you smile warmly and say "That's awesome" they will appreciate much more than if you say in a controlled fashion "Congratulations on your success" (Hell, they might even like being told that they have "awesome" litigation skills). I firmly believe that being rooted in your self while being open to other people is the most positive form of human interaction.

Incidentally, if you are nice to someone and they don't respond warmly, generally something is wrong with them and not you. With those people unfortunately you must be "civil", not nice. This unfortunately means closing yourself off and talking to them only as much as is necessary.

I can't remember where I heard or read this, but someone said somewhere that almost no conversation is used for information transfer. It's used purely for emotional transfer (getting closer to and understanding the other person, expressing commonalities).

Oh, and I have to say this whole "I have a different life experience so I can't possibly relate to them" a bit tedious. If you can't relate to them with sports or with their soccer-mom lives, I hear that talking about the weather is quite popular. You may have lived overseas, but you know the difference between rainy and sunny, right? Oh, and you have wikipedia'ed the Mets and the Yankees by now, I hope.
posted by Deathalicious at 3:48 AM on August 10, 2007

I find the whole work environment and associated human interactions completely ludicrous but I just keep that to myself and have a good chuckle to myself...
posted by DZ-015 at 4:35 AM on August 10, 2007 [1 favorite]

be yourself or you'll lose who you are trying to please someone else.
posted by knowles at 4:59 AM on August 10, 2007

I think you should just be yourself. You have plenty of things in common with the people. You eat food right? You have a job / career? Just because you know nothing about the Yankees doesn't mean you can't be curious about the Yankees. And as far as the "awesome" / "that's cool" thing, I think you should use those exact words. If anything they will get a kick out of it. What I wouldn't suggest is saying things you would hear on Rob & Big like "Do Work Son!!!!", or "I just wanna kick it with my homies and shout at all the beyotches!"
posted by jasondigitized at 5:29 AM on August 10, 2007

I don't follow sports

Start. As you've discovered, sports are a major subject of American business small-talk, and it takes very, very little knowledge (learn the very basics of each game, learn where each team is located, check the standings once a month or so, etc.) to participate. A lot of conversations can go like this:

Person 1: "Yeah, I'm a Royals fan."
Person 2: "Cool. I don't really follow baseball, but how's Kansas City doing this year, anyway?"
Person 1: "Oh, terrible..." (long rant)
Person 2: "Yeah, it's a tough division, with the Tigers and Indians and all."

Even though Person 2 did very little work and showed minimal knowledge of baseball (and even said so, thus cutting off more in-depth discussions of the game), Person 1 will have positive memories of the conversation.

(I'm a sports fan myself, but I don't follow basketball; I can still fake my way through this kind of conversation.)

Also, it never hurts to follow you bosses' teams in a little more depth.

If you're really good, you can have these conversations with no knowledge of the sport -- I know a couple of people who can pull that off -- but it depends on picking up on conversational cues and a lot of small-talk experience. Similarly, if you get really good at other small-talk subjects, you might be able to just steer conversations away from sports. For now, though, it may be easier to use sports as a crutch than to rebel.
posted by backupjesus at 6:10 AM on August 10, 2007

One of the worst traps to get in is worrying about how others perceive you. Guess what. No matter how you act, or how much you try to figure it out, you can NEVER know accurately how others see you. So it's better to have them make their judgments based on the real you.

Just be yourself, but be your best self. I don't think you need to edit your speech patterns or your opinions. Obviously, work is not the place to get into high-intensity political or social arguments, but you don't have to be a clone, either. I'm 46 and I say cool, awesome, etc. all the time. I get along fine with interns under 20 years old, as well as co-workers in their 20s and 30s, plus others much older than me.

Be yourself, and let people see your personality. How else can anyone know who you are? You might establish some good friendships or mentoring relationships if you come out of your shell a bit. Keep in mind that many work assignments are given based on personality, not just skill set.
posted by The Deej at 6:19 AM on August 10, 2007 [2 favorites]

There's only one thing you need to do to make small talk with a soccer mom: ask about her kids. And if you can remember what the kids' activities are and can ask for follow-ups in later conversations, you're going to earn some brownie points.
posted by Benjy at 6:42 AM on August 10, 2007 [1 favorite]

You know what? I'm all for networking and mature social interaction, but sometimes, just sometimes, you end up working with people you have nothing, absolutely nothing in common with, and worse still, las you get to know them, you realise that you find it very hard to respect their life choices. This, strangely enough, is an opportunity (as you have already recognised) to build a new skill.

Take cues from them, photos on their desks, a new outfit, their jewelley, oh that's a pretty photo, did you take that? Nice skirt, Beryl, where did you pick that up? Can I look at your ring, that' looks lovely, have you had it long? My advice however would be to stay shallow and friendly. Really. It's professional. It makes a nice atmosphere in the office. And you don't end up with an emotional vampire stalking you through your next three jobs, or trying to sell you tupperware or convert you to their religion.

Regarding your hip and groovy vocabulary, just pick one word at a time to destroy. Find an alternative (I like the "great" suggested above) and use it rigourously until it sticks.

Oh, and don't let these people know you have skills that are unrelated to your job description, or you'll always be fixing the photocopier, or refusing as gently as possible to work on their daughter's wedding invitations.

Seriously.
posted by b33j at 6:45 AM on August 10, 2007

Good input Benjy. It reminds me of the old saying, attributed to various people: Sincerity is everything. If you can fake that, you've got it made.

(Ha! The first Google hit of that phrase goes here.)
posted by The Deej at 6:48 AM on August 10, 2007

Find a common enemy. Anything. Republics, fried foods, the snow, American cars, terrorism, whatever. Look for something they don't like and relate.
posted by letahl at 6:49 AM on August 10, 2007

A couple thoughts:

1. Learning new idioms is not going to change anything.

2. It sounds like you're sweating the details. Work environments consist of different people doing different things. Everywhere. I know its tough straight out of college, but that's life.

I think you do need to change, but not how you speak. You really got to stop seeing other people as stupid american caricatures. You really need to start seeing them as people. How you go about this is tough to explain. Usually you pick it up as you go along as you realize that youre a lot more common and average than you think you are. I dont care if youre salivador dali, you're just another ordinary mammal trying to get financial resources to make it through the day. You went to a school. You have humor. etc. You need to start feeling comfortable outside of youre little lefty/intellectual niche. Personally, I find it depressing to interact with someone who still acts like theyre living at the dorms at Liberal U. All the 'isms' and the 'I'm better than you' bullshit is tiresome. The few people like this at work who "keep it intellectually real" are lonely and miserable. We all have our own ideas and habits, but expecting your workmates to act like your best friend is demanding too much.

You're not getting far in networking unless you quickly learn this stuff.

There was a thread a little bit ago on how to make small talk. You should check it out.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:17 AM on August 10, 2007 [2 favorites]

If you're good at your job, and help others to be good at theirs, then your oddities will be perceived as eccentricities that will become part of your personal mystique. People will start to wonder if your exceptional abilities are somehow connected to your strange background and education.

If you're bad at your job, and a hindrance to others being good at theirs, then your oddities will be perceived as flaws that will be pieces of mounting evidence that you just don't fit in. People will start to assume that you suck so much because of your strange background and education.

That's all the old man said, and he didn't say no more.
posted by bingo at 7:22 AM on August 10, 2007 [2 favorites]

Also I highly disagree with 'faking an interest in sports.' Its stupid, people will see through it, and you'll just encourage the sports people.

Its much easier to ask how someone's weekend went or how they are feeling. Or how's their day so far. etc.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:26 AM on August 10, 2007

Per The Deej: No matter how you act, or how much you try to figure it out, you can NEVER know accurately how others see you. So it's better to have them make their judgments based on the real you.

This is going on my remembered quotes list. Good words to live by.

I'm over 40 and the other day I second-guessed myself for telling my boss "That dude from marketing called back."

Should I have said 'dude??' How did that make me sound?

But I bet he didn't even notice. I say 'dude' all the time.

Anyway- Deej is right. If your speech patterns aren't poseresque affectations, they'll know your're for real and that's what matters.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 7:28 AM on August 10, 2007

This is going on my remembered quotes list. Good words to live by.

I said that??? I musta been high.
posted by The Deej at 7:34 AM on August 10, 2007

Own your words. Being able to switch register and idiom as necessary as you move between different classes, cultures and age groups is an asset that you develop, beginning with little native talent and a lot of conscious effort and practice. It requires you to become aware of your own habitus and how it meshes with and responds to others'. this self-awareness comes with familiarity and design. Why not join a group or community organisation that will throw you together with a reasonably broad spectrum of people and take it from there. Outside of a work environment, you may not feel as constrained to perform to expectations. Also, most people love talking about themselves or those close to them (witness the enduring popularity of endlessrelationshipfilterwaffle) so get them to do that. Not coming off as a stalker is necessary here though.
posted by meehawl at 7:56 AM on August 10, 2007

I work in an office on the West side of Cleveland. I'm from the east side of Cincinnati and follow the Reds and the Bengals. I live on the east side of Cleveland, too.

I feel your pain. I've just learned to avoid talking about things that I like. Instead, I found a common element: Cleveland westsiders love making fun of and picking on metro Cleveland's inhabitants, so I make sure to read the Metro section of the Plain Dealer each morning and I'm set for a few days' worth of small talk.
posted by vkxmai at 8:31 AM on August 10, 2007

> Eh. Put me in the group that thinks that thinks phrases
> like "like" and "you know" are just as much a part of
> person's voice as the rest of what they're saying.

Yeah, a couple editors and I had this same conversation. (I'm probably about to get schooled by the super-grammar people here, but) In the sentence "there were like forty people there," "like" is actually serving a function, albeit one that could also be served by "around." In the sentence, "he was like 'oh no you don't!'" the word "like" indicates "I am about to act in the manner he was acting." I don't know a good synonym for that. So I think it serves a useful role and isn't the linguistic dead weight people act like it is.

But none of that helps if a) people are stereotyping you for talking that way, or b) being one of the few who talks that way makes you feel younger or unprofessional, soo...back to the thread.
posted by salvia at 9:14 AM on August 10, 2007 [1 favorite]

Good Brain and others: i think you may be mistaking my inability to make conversation as me not wanting to and this is far less about advancing my career than just wanting a more pleasant work environment. And no I don't think these people are "stupid american caricatures" I am American for gods sake.

And also if I really was as pretentious as some of you are saying, I wouldn't really give a crap about making conversation with the secretary pool now would I? Plenty of lawyers don't and I even know a couple who resent the idea that they maybe should. I really hate the idea that if someone is lost for words, shy, quiet, etc then they must just be so wrapped up in themselves or think they are so much better than everyone else, when usually it is the exact opposite. I am far more lost for words when I feel out of place or intimidated.

Also, as Salvia talked about a little, part of this is about me being perceived as being young (I could pass for 19 if I wanted to) and not outgoing enough/confident enough. I am a very good public speaker/debater so I feel my personality at work does not reflect my true abilities.
posted by whoaali at 9:30 AM on August 10, 2007

Also, Caddis yes I read your comment last night, but it was deleted before I could respond, as constructive as it was. I am quite aware that I need to speak like a professional adult at work, what exactly do you think the purpose of this question is? Actually finding a way to do that is what I am having problems with.
posted by whoaali at 9:34 AM on August 10, 2007

There are a lot of good comments here and thanks for everyone's suggestions. I think a lot of you are right that I may really be worrying too much about offending people with intrusive questions, so that is an easy thing to change. Probably the same with a lot of the vernacular. I have occasionally gotten looks for saying things like awesome, but now that I think about it, it is usually the same one or two people and not the 30 others.

And I agree with Damn Dirty Ape, I don't think I can successfully fake an interest in sports. I've dated a lot of football fanatics in my time and still haven't picked up anything so that is a bit of a lost cause I think.

Also, I'm starting to see that part of my problem may be that some of the questions/topics I stay away from are ones I don't particularly like be asked about, but for other people it's very normal. Like I hate the where are you from question as I then have to launch into a lengthy story (I've tried to cut it short everyone calls you on it), I don't like discussing my family because that's too messy and personal. So I think I need to remember that for other people these are very mundane topics.
posted by whoaali at 9:46 AM on August 10, 2007

Good point whoaali. To prosper in the generally somewhat pompous atmosphere of a law firm it is best to ditch the slang and idioms. If this means removing them from your speech outside of work as well then so be it. As for finding something to talk about with your coworkers, there was lots of good advice here on getting people to talk about themselves. It's most people's favorite subject, except parents when the favorite subject is related, their children. Recognizing the issue is most of the battle so you are well on your way. Good luck.
posted by caddis at 11:01 AM on August 10, 2007

I'm thirty five. Two of my closest friends are 56 and 62, respectively. Here's some stuff that makes these friendships work.

1. They know there's an age/generation difference and are okay with it. They don't expect me to agree with them on politics or music or anything like that. And I feel the same towards them. There's just this protective presumption of differentness. When we disagree (just the other day, we had a long debate about immigration and English as the national language), we do so in a way that is non-confrontational and, for us at least, pretty damn entertaining.

2. They've had extremely interesting lives and I like hearing them talk about things they did thirty or forty years ago.

3. We have several pretty significant things in common.

4. Certain parts of my life I don't really share with them. Like, for example, they don't want to hear about what was on Robot Chicken last night. Nor do they want to know what Aaron Sorkin is up to. When I go hang out with them, I just leave that stuff aside.
posted by Clay201 at 10:21 PM on August 10, 2007