Blocking for dummies
May 23, 2007 3:32 AM Subscribe
Many Asian martial arts rely on an extensive, and often showy, system of blocks to protect the face and body. Boxing arts don't. Why?
You've seen 'em in the movies. The elaborate blocks employed in kung fu, karate, and other Asian martial arts to guard against hits. Beyond protecting our sensitive areas, blocks can injure the arm or leg of an opponent, stopping an attack dead-on.
Muay Thai, kickboxing, and Western boxing seem to prefer ducks and dodges to blocks, and fighters are often on the receiving end of a bloody nose, a cracked rib, or a KO.
What's the philosophy of blocking in the boxing arts? Why have these arts taken a "muted" approach to blocks? In what ways is this style more effective than the aggressive blocks of Asian martial arts?
You've seen 'em in the movies. The elaborate blocks employed in kung fu, karate, and other Asian martial arts to guard against hits. Beyond protecting our sensitive areas, blocks can injure the arm or leg of an opponent, stopping an attack dead-on.
Muay Thai, kickboxing, and Western boxing seem to prefer ducks and dodges to blocks, and fighters are often on the receiving end of a bloody nose, a cracked rib, or a KO.
What's the philosophy of blocking in the boxing arts? Why have these arts taken a "muted" approach to blocks? In what ways is this style more effective than the aggressive blocks of Asian martial arts?
This has the potential of turning into a traditional martial arts vs. mixed martial arts debate..
It's 'cause traditional Asian martial arts have a strong component of aesthetics and mysticism behind them. Therefore by blocking punches, the movement looks more graceful between the two fighters and it becomes more of a dance.
In boxing, you have two guys trying to inflict as much damage on each other as possible within the stated rules.
I don't doubt blocking has it's uses, but to train how to block, like to train how to hit precise points on the body, takes many years of training (hence "art"), but frankly it's just easier to move out of the way of the incoming punch.
Sure, in close quarters, blocking can be useful. However, even Bruce Lee mentioned something about the simplicity of the Wing Chun punch, which redirects an opponents punch, while striking the opponent, too. Why do in two moves what you can accomplish in one?
Also, blocking requires more fine motor coordination than simply moving your legs, or torso, and as a fight drags on, fighters are gonna block more sloppily.
Someone else can throw in the theory on how Asians were generally more skinny, while Western arts were more about brute strength.. running parallel with the videogame trade-off of the fighter with lots of weak punches, or the fighter with a few killer knock-outs.. I should be off to bed.
posted by hobbes at 5:05 AM on May 23, 2007
It's 'cause traditional Asian martial arts have a strong component of aesthetics and mysticism behind them. Therefore by blocking punches, the movement looks more graceful between the two fighters and it becomes more of a dance.
In boxing, you have two guys trying to inflict as much damage on each other as possible within the stated rules.
I don't doubt blocking has it's uses, but to train how to block, like to train how to hit precise points on the body, takes many years of training (hence "art"), but frankly it's just easier to move out of the way of the incoming punch.
Sure, in close quarters, blocking can be useful. However, even Bruce Lee mentioned something about the simplicity of the Wing Chun punch, which redirects an opponents punch, while striking the opponent, too. Why do in two moves what you can accomplish in one?
Also, blocking requires more fine motor coordination than simply moving your legs, or torso, and as a fight drags on, fighters are gonna block more sloppily.
Someone else can throw in the theory on how Asians were generally more skinny, while Western arts were more about brute strength.. running parallel with the videogame trade-off of the fighter with lots of weak punches, or the fighter with a few killer knock-outs.. I should be off to bed.
posted by hobbes at 5:05 AM on May 23, 2007
Boxing is quite literally based on strict rules. This is because it's a sport. Martial arts were developed as a form of defense and then as a form of physical exercise and meditation. Nowadays they're also seen as a sport, but the moves and styles have already been codified.
posted by humblepigeon at 5:14 AM on May 23, 2007
posted by humblepigeon at 5:14 AM on May 23, 2007
Martial arts are dreived from breathing calesthetics; the movements seek to maximize airflow while making the most efficient use of balance and motor response while moving, whether leaning to one side, or engaging someone in a confrontation. The blocking also seeks to absorb and deflect incoming blows in such a way as to stall the attacker, or even throw them off balance.
In boxing, the aim is to make contact; blocking seeks to cut off a blow long enough to allow you can exploit a potential opening. You're always trying to find that spot, thus the greater emphasis on offense than defense.
posted by Smart Dalek at 5:22 AM on May 23, 2007
In boxing, the aim is to make contact; blocking seeks to cut off a blow long enough to allow you can exploit a potential opening. You're always trying to find that spot, thus the greater emphasis on offense than defense.
posted by Smart Dalek at 5:22 AM on May 23, 2007
I believe there is a biological principle that an organism can act faster than it can react. Waiting for your opponent to strike and thinking you can duck or block it with regularity is a poor gamble. This may change if you are out of range so that he has to step and swing but within arm's reach, initiating contact is a pretty big advantage.
That's my understanding of why the combat sports don't emphasize blocking as much as the traditional martial arts. They do block though. It's not as stylized and a bit more reactive or instinctual, but a lot of punches are partially absorbed by the shoulder or forearms.
posted by BigSky at 6:03 AM on May 23, 2007
That's my understanding of why the combat sports don't emphasize blocking as much as the traditional martial arts. They do block though. It's not as stylized and a bit more reactive or instinctual, but a lot of punches are partially absorbed by the shoulder or forearms.
posted by BigSky at 6:03 AM on May 23, 2007
I think the question may rest on the misconception that real martial arts are like in the movies, this is wrong. Martial arts in movies is done for show, with wildly exaggerated movement, so the audience can see something happening. It looks like dance in films, because in films it is a kind of ritualised dance, and the actors will have had training in dance for this specific purpose.
Real martial arts are based on subtle movements and efficiency, striving to avoid unnecessary action which would give the opponent an advantage. Here is an example of this manner of thinking from Wing Chun, the style Bruce Lee first trained.
posted by MetaMonkey at 6:04 AM on May 23, 2007
Real martial arts are based on subtle movements and efficiency, striving to avoid unnecessary action which would give the opponent an advantage. Here is an example of this manner of thinking from Wing Chun, the style Bruce Lee first trained.
Wing Chun uses deflection and counter-attack in the same motion or will intercept the opponent to nulify an attack, rather than blocking then attacking in two separate motions. Further on interception the punch can act as a block as a consequence of the structure and the position of the arm travelling along its triangular "power-line" pathway to the opponent's "Core". This means that the opponent's attack is automatically deflected by the arm-structure of the Wing Chun practitioner as the counter-punch is delivered.Furthermore, blocks in boxing take part within the context of a relatively long, slow slugfest. In martial arts blocks are designed to be employed as part of the process of achieving a quick and total take-down. In this vein, from the page on Tai chi chuan,
The philosophy of the style is that if one uses hardness to resist violent force, then both sides are certain to be injured at least to some degree. Such injury, according to tai chi theory, is a natural consequence of meeting brute force with brute force. The collision of two like forces, yang with yang, is known as "double-weighted" in tai chi terminology. Instead, students are taught not to directly fight or resist an incoming force, but to meet it in softness and "stick" to it, following its motion while remaining in physical contact until the incoming force of attack exhausts itself or can be safely redirected, the result of meeting yang with yin... Tai chi's martial aspect relies on sensitivity to the opponent's movements and center of gravity dictating appropriate responses. Effectively affecting or "capturing" the opponent's center of gravity immediately upon contact is trained as the primary goal of the martial tai chi student.The point being that blocks in martial arts are in practise usually even more controlled than in boxing, since they are meant for use in life-threatening situations, and are not too much like in your average kung fu movie.
posted by MetaMonkey at 6:04 AM on May 23, 2007
I'm no expert, but the obvious answer is that blocks don't work.
posted by callmejay at 6:26 AM on May 23, 2007
posted by callmejay at 6:26 AM on May 23, 2007
MetaMonkey pretty much has it, but I would add that in my style--Go Ju--we start out leaning and practising blocks in a way that is exaggerated and can somewhat resemble the kinds of movie moves you describe. In practice, the blocks are much smaller and faster. Almost all of the advanced blocks, the kinds with the elaborate movements, can be simplified into a block-strike or a block + move that immobilizes some part of the opponent while you go for the takedown strike. Unlike either boxing or the movies, the goal of a trained martial artist in an actual fight is to render their opponent non-threatening in about 6 seconds. Blocks are used to draw the opponent into vulnerable positions where selective strikes render them immobile very quickly.
posted by carmen at 6:54 AM on May 23, 2007
posted by carmen at 6:54 AM on May 23, 2007
Blocking and defense generally are in fact quite important in boxing. Its just that blocking is the most elemental defensive move. It is effective and used often, but with economy of motion. The general problem with blocking is that it doesn't promote counter-attacking and you can still absorb damage. Boxers distinguish between a "block" and a "parry", where the latter is designed to glance the blow away from your body. All boxers learn these techniques very, very early in the game. You always hear corners exhorting their boxer to "keep your hands up" which is all about blocking blows.
A much more useful skill is slipping punches by moving the target (usually your head) to the side. It is considered a sign of skill to move the least amount so that the punch comes close. Ali is considered one of the all-time greats at slipping punches. The advantage of this is that you remain in position to counterpunch and the force of your opponent's blow may leave him exposed.
Tom Shook makes fun of the elaborate blocking techniques in martial arts in this mildly amusing essay
posted by Lame_username at 7:25 AM on May 23, 2007
A much more useful skill is slipping punches by moving the target (usually your head) to the side. It is considered a sign of skill to move the least amount so that the punch comes close. Ali is considered one of the all-time greats at slipping punches. The advantage of this is that you remain in position to counterpunch and the force of your opponent's blow may leave him exposed.
Tom Shook makes fun of the elaborate blocking techniques in martial arts in this mildly amusing essay
posted by Lame_username at 7:25 AM on May 23, 2007
martial arts incorporate the yin and yang of asian philosophy, a duality embodied in this context as attack and defense which, as any feng shui guy can tell you, must be in balance for an optimum result.
the goal in boxing is to tag the other guy in the noggin with your fist as hard and fast as you can, and "balance" means staying on your feet while you're doing it.
posted by bruce at 9:44 AM on May 23, 2007
the goal in boxing is to tag the other guy in the noggin with your fist as hard and fast as you can, and "balance" means staying on your feet while you're doing it.
posted by bruce at 9:44 AM on May 23, 2007
My taekwondo teacher (Jae Hun Kim in Boston) attended MIT and did some work in the strobe photography lab. He showed pretty conclusively that most techniques start and end well before the best human reaction times will kick in.
The conclusion is that blocking without anticipation is physically impossible.
Under fighting conditions (sparring, competition, combat, etc.) the best you can hope for is to control the total number of effective techniques your opponent has through use of distance and stance - i.e. if you're close, he can't kick, far he can't punch. Then the rest is anticipation and guessing.
This is why ground-based martial arts are more effective in MMA or real fights. Grappling someone is much more effective because the pace of the fight is slower, and the number of techniques is severely limited.
The cinematic block-punch-block-kick stuff never, never, never happens in real life.
posted by milinar at 10:16 AM on May 23, 2007
The conclusion is that blocking without anticipation is physically impossible.
Under fighting conditions (sparring, competition, combat, etc.) the best you can hope for is to control the total number of effective techniques your opponent has through use of distance and stance - i.e. if you're close, he can't kick, far he can't punch. Then the rest is anticipation and guessing.
This is why ground-based martial arts are more effective in MMA or real fights. Grappling someone is much more effective because the pace of the fight is slower, and the number of techniques is severely limited.
The cinematic block-punch-block-kick stuff never, never, never happens in real life.
posted by milinar at 10:16 AM on May 23, 2007
Boxing occurs in tighter quarters with a limited number of attacks. There is no need (or hasn't been) for any more defensive maneuvers than already occur, and rope-a-dope is probably the most recent innovation in defensive boxing (35 years ago).
posted by rhizome at 10:48 AM on May 23, 2007
posted by rhizome at 10:48 AM on May 23, 2007
The basic karate block begins with moving yourself offline. The second part is usually helping the blow away from your center line while striking the offending limb or moving it aside and then striking the limb.
How much of the technique you perform depends on how much time you have.
If you are really trained, spar alot (with all kinds of folks and not just karate people), you might be able to get the whole thing off.
I am slow, and not so good, so I depend alot on the first two. This means I am moving offline and moving my lead arm up a little bit or across my body alittle bit 4-5 inches at most. This doesn't really sound that different from boxing to me.
posted by Wong Fei-hung at 12:04 PM on May 23, 2007
How much of the technique you perform depends on how much time you have.
If you are really trained, spar alot (with all kinds of folks and not just karate people), you might be able to get the whole thing off.
I am slow, and not so good, so I depend alot on the first two. This means I am moving offline and moving my lead arm up a little bit or across my body alittle bit 4-5 inches at most. This doesn't really sound that different from boxing to me.
posted by Wong Fei-hung at 12:04 PM on May 23, 2007
The conclusion is that blocking without anticipation is physically impossible.
True, but opponents may telegraph their moves, which gives you a split-second to react accordingly.
The point being that blocks in martial arts are in practise usually even more controlled than in boxing, since they are meant for use in life-threatening situations, and are not too much like in your average kung fu movie.
Unless you have a lot of experience in sparring, you will not be controlled in a fight. Adrenaline kicks in, fatigue sets in, and once you get hit in the head, you're not going to be graceful. Furthermore a lot of these kung-fu moves depend on a willing opponent practically giving you his arm.
Unlike either boxing or the movies, the goal of a trained martial artist in an actual fight is to render their opponent non-threatening in about 6 seconds. Blocks are used to draw the opponent into vulnerable positions where selective strikes render them immobile very quickly.
A sports fighter would like to render his opponents useless in 6 seconds, but he doesn't use these techniques because they've been proven ineffective. Of course the counter is that MMA tournies don't allow the super-secret techniques that would kill a man in one punch.
posted by hobbes at 12:46 PM on May 23, 2007
True, but opponents may telegraph their moves, which gives you a split-second to react accordingly.
The point being that blocks in martial arts are in practise usually even more controlled than in boxing, since they are meant for use in life-threatening situations, and are not too much like in your average kung fu movie.
Unless you have a lot of experience in sparring, you will not be controlled in a fight. Adrenaline kicks in, fatigue sets in, and once you get hit in the head, you're not going to be graceful. Furthermore a lot of these kung-fu moves depend on a willing opponent practically giving you his arm.
Unlike either boxing or the movies, the goal of a trained martial artist in an actual fight is to render their opponent non-threatening in about 6 seconds. Blocks are used to draw the opponent into vulnerable positions where selective strikes render them immobile very quickly.
A sports fighter would like to render his opponents useless in 6 seconds, but he doesn't use these techniques because they've been proven ineffective. Of course the counter is that MMA tournies don't allow the super-secret techniques that would kill a man in one punch.
posted by hobbes at 12:46 PM on May 23, 2007
I'll add my 2ยข before tkchrist shows up.
I've studied a few different martial arts. Never seriously or competitively, but I've been in a few dojos. The stuff you see in movies, as noted above by other posters, is closer to a choreographed dance than real martial arts. I've never seen wild hand-waving and thrashing about outside of Tai Chi or Aikido, niether of which, arguably, are fighting arts. The moves I learned incorporated as few extraneous motions as possible, and, like Western boxers, always keeping at least one hand in a defensive position, usually up near the face.
posted by lekvar at 2:34 PM on May 23, 2007
I've studied a few different martial arts. Never seriously or competitively, but I've been in a few dojos. The stuff you see in movies, as noted above by other posters, is closer to a choreographed dance than real martial arts. I've never seen wild hand-waving and thrashing about outside of Tai Chi or Aikido, niether of which, arguably, are fighting arts. The moves I learned incorporated as few extraneous motions as possible, and, like Western boxers, always keeping at least one hand in a defensive position, usually up near the face.
posted by lekvar at 2:34 PM on May 23, 2007
Of course the counter is that MMA tournies don't allow the super-secret techniques that would kill a man in one punch.
How do you get from "ineffective" to dead? And what techniques are you talking about that are "proven ineffective"? Lots of things would render people ineffective in a fight that aren't allowed in tournaments but don't take long to accomplish: breaking the elbow or knee, a hard punch to the throat. I'm pretty sure these have not been proven ineffective.
I wasn't saying that any black belt can win any fight in 6 seconds: I was making the point that, at least in my dojo, we are taught that if we ever get into an actual fight with someone, we should try to end it as quickly as possible with the minimum of strikes on either side.
posted by carmen at 8:46 PM on May 23, 2007
How do you get from "ineffective" to dead? And what techniques are you talking about that are "proven ineffective"? Lots of things would render people ineffective in a fight that aren't allowed in tournaments but don't take long to accomplish: breaking the elbow or knee, a hard punch to the throat. I'm pretty sure these have not been proven ineffective.
I wasn't saying that any black belt can win any fight in 6 seconds: I was making the point that, at least in my dojo, we are taught that if we ever get into an actual fight with someone, we should try to end it as quickly as possible with the minimum of strikes on either side.
posted by carmen at 8:46 PM on May 23, 2007
Agreed with you there.
My thing is many traditional schools teach techniques which sound great in theory, but are difficult to execute. For example, most boxers keep their chins tucked and shoulders up, protecting their jaw, along with their throat.
There are techniques that do work (like a swift kick to the groin and eye pokes), but they tend to get lost in the overwhelming number of less useful ones.
And I should note that I don't believe MMA tournaments are "real," either. Pride FC doesn't allow elbows, while UFC has had many revisions since its conception to tone down the chances of permanent injury.
posted by hobbes at 10:48 PM on May 23, 2007
My thing is many traditional schools teach techniques which sound great in theory, but are difficult to execute. For example, most boxers keep their chins tucked and shoulders up, protecting their jaw, along with their throat.
There are techniques that do work (like a swift kick to the groin and eye pokes), but they tend to get lost in the overwhelming number of less useful ones.
And I should note that I don't believe MMA tournaments are "real," either. Pride FC doesn't allow elbows, while UFC has had many revisions since its conception to tone down the chances of permanent injury.
posted by hobbes at 10:48 PM on May 23, 2007
I've never seen wild hand-waving and thrashing about outside of Tai Chi or Aikido, niether of which, arguably, are fighting arts.
I don't experience with Tai Chi, but what I've seen of Aikido doesn't seem to have a lot of wild hand-waving. It seems to be more on the subtle "slipping punches" side rather than the more showy blocking of some "harder" arts, but I could be wrong (undoubtedly there is considerable variation even within a particular art, too).
And "showy" is the answer to your question. You see the more showy stuff in the films because it's showier. :) Showy often means slower, so many effective techniques rely more on the most economy of motion to not be injured. Sometimes this is a block combined with a counterattack, sometimes this simply means moving slightly.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 1:51 PM on May 24, 2007
I don't experience with Tai Chi, but what I've seen of Aikido doesn't seem to have a lot of wild hand-waving. It seems to be more on the subtle "slipping punches" side rather than the more showy blocking of some "harder" arts, but I could be wrong (undoubtedly there is considerable variation even within a particular art, too).
And "showy" is the answer to your question. You see the more showy stuff in the films because it's showier. :) Showy often means slower, so many effective techniques rely more on the most economy of motion to not be injured. Sometimes this is a block combined with a counterattack, sometimes this simply means moving slightly.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 1:51 PM on May 24, 2007
I think the real answer comes down to millinar's point. Reaction time and the execution time of techniques means that their really isn't enough time to execute a flowery, sweeping block in the course of a real fight. If you're going to block an incoming strike, whatever you're blocking the strike with had better be close to the target to begin with. That's why boxers hold their hands high, and it's why the posture in some traditional martial arts, where the hands are held at waist/abdomen height is a pretty terrible idea.
Also, I have to disagree with many people who are asserting that martial arts are showy in movies, not in practice. I've trained in Boxing, Kickboxing, Aikido, Karate, Taekwondo, Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. The showy moves are NOT confined to movies. I've seen ridiculous moves in the dojo, mostly confined to the Karate, Aikido, and Taekwondo classes. The martial sports were much more realistic-they only keep the flashy stuff that works.
The Tom Shook article is great, and illustrates a lot of what my experience in the martial arts has been. Simple=good, and it's often the real fighters who are humble.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 10:00 AM on May 25, 2007
Also, I have to disagree with many people who are asserting that martial arts are showy in movies, not in practice. I've trained in Boxing, Kickboxing, Aikido, Karate, Taekwondo, Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. The showy moves are NOT confined to movies. I've seen ridiculous moves in the dojo, mostly confined to the Karate, Aikido, and Taekwondo classes. The martial sports were much more realistic-they only keep the flashy stuff that works.
The Tom Shook article is great, and illustrates a lot of what my experience in the martial arts has been. Simple=good, and it's often the real fighters who are humble.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 10:00 AM on May 25, 2007
This statement:
"Also, I have to disagree with many people who are asserting that martial arts are showy in movies, not in practice. I've trained in Boxing, Kickboxing, Aikido, Karate, Taekwondo, Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. The showy moves are NOT confined to movies. I've seen ridiculous moves in the dojo, mostly confined to the Karate, Aikido, and Taekwondo classes. The martial sports were much more realistic-they only keep the flashy stuff that works."
may reflect your experience but it does not mine except that there are crappy martial arts teachers, and crappy martial artists, everywhere. It sounds like you found several of them.
I completely agree with you regarding simplicity and that is the frame from which I, and my circle, approach fighting. Eastern fighting arts and simplicity are not mutually exclusive.
If you do not break down the techniques and make them real then your study of the martial arts will most certainly be a waste of time.
posted by Wong Fei-hung at 4:54 PM on May 29, 2007
"Also, I have to disagree with many people who are asserting that martial arts are showy in movies, not in practice. I've trained in Boxing, Kickboxing, Aikido, Karate, Taekwondo, Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. The showy moves are NOT confined to movies. I've seen ridiculous moves in the dojo, mostly confined to the Karate, Aikido, and Taekwondo classes. The martial sports were much more realistic-they only keep the flashy stuff that works."
may reflect your experience but it does not mine except that there are crappy martial arts teachers, and crappy martial artists, everywhere. It sounds like you found several of them.
I completely agree with you regarding simplicity and that is the frame from which I, and my circle, approach fighting. Eastern fighting arts and simplicity are not mutually exclusive.
If you do not break down the techniques and make them real then your study of the martial arts will most certainly be a waste of time.
posted by Wong Fei-hung at 4:54 PM on May 29, 2007
I'm not a martial artist or boxer, but I thought that one of the elements of blocking in fighting martial arts was to attempt the destruction of the opponents hand or foot. An act that I would guess to be more difficult if the wrist is taped, and the hand gloved as it is in boxing.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:19 AM on July 25, 2007
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:19 AM on July 25, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
Because these arts are more 'alive', they use what works - slipping punches/bob & weave/parrying/counter punching.
posted by the cuban at 4:52 AM on May 23, 2007