Magicians could be stealing our stuff
May 15, 2007 7:16 PM Subscribe
I reckon an expert magician can "trick the public" most of the time - with disappearing/switching watches, coins, jewellry etc.
Given that...
1) would the normal magician-like techniques work in real life situations? In other words could a competent magician go through their life just thieving from us innocents?
2) Have any magicians ever been exposed as using their skills for "evil"? By evil I mean non-performance fraud/theft/short-term monetary gain?
A very poor example: early on in The Grifters, John Cusack gets the crap beaten out of him for trying to switch a large denomination $bill for a smaller one in a bar when he paid for a beer.
Given that...
1) would the normal magician-like techniques work in real life situations? In other words could a competent magician go through their life just thieving from us innocents?
2) Have any magicians ever been exposed as using their skills for "evil"? By evil I mean non-performance fraud/theft/short-term monetary gain?
A very poor example: early on in The Grifters, John Cusack gets the crap beaten out of him for trying to switch a large denomination $bill for a smaller one in a bar when he paid for a beer.
The Real Hustle deals with this sometimes, but it's more about cons in general.
posted by aye at 7:29 PM on May 15, 2007
posted by aye at 7:29 PM on May 15, 2007
1) Yes. Pickpockets, shell game guys, etc are all employing the same techniques magicians use - misdirection, sleight of hand, etc.
See a few articles from James Randi on how scammers and fake psychics trick people using magician-like techniques, for example.
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:32 PM on May 15, 2007
See a few articles from James Randi on how scammers and fake psychics trick people using magician-like techniques, for example.
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:32 PM on May 15, 2007
Many faith healers use prestidigitation skills to fool believers. For instance, they'll palm a chicken organ or something similar and pretend to pull it from the body of the afflicted. This approach was illustrated in the film Man on the Moon. Similarly, the same "mind reading" tricks used by stage magicians for entertainment are used by people attempting to convince others of their divinity or special powers.
Picking pockets, from what I understand, is not entirely dissimilar to stage magic. You divert the attention of the mark -- usually by bumping into him or her -- and use a little slight of hand to grab the wallet or other target. Then, in another diversion, you subtly hand the wallet off to an accomplice. The attention may be on you, but the wallet is elsewhere.
So I'd say that the skills used by stage magicians are used by the bad guys quite a bit, it's just that once they've been adapted to efficient malfeasance they look very different.
posted by L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg at 7:36 PM on May 15, 2007
Picking pockets, from what I understand, is not entirely dissimilar to stage magic. You divert the attention of the mark -- usually by bumping into him or her -- and use a little slight of hand to grab the wallet or other target. Then, in another diversion, you subtly hand the wallet off to an accomplice. The attention may be on you, but the wallet is elsewhere.
So I'd say that the skills used by stage magicians are used by the bad guys quite a bit, it's just that once they've been adapted to efficient malfeasance they look very different.
posted by L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg at 7:36 PM on May 15, 2007
Not exactly what you're looking for, but interesting:
When David Copperfield got mugged, he used sleight of hand to hide his wallet, cell phone, and passport from them.
posted by chrisamiller at 8:15 PM on May 15, 2007 [1 favorite]
When David Copperfield got mugged, he used sleight of hand to hide his wallet, cell phone, and passport from them.
posted by chrisamiller at 8:15 PM on May 15, 2007 [1 favorite]
1. Yes.
2. Not that's been discussed in a lot of detail. Ricky Jay's mentor, Vernon Dai, spent a lot of time traveling around the country learning from cardsharps as well as other magicians. There is a book out that tells how he learned an 'impossible' trick, dealing from the middle of the deck, from a midwest cardsharp. I don't think Vernon Dai ever used any of his skills to fleece people. Ricky Jay has commented that he made a fair amount of cash for a few years playing poker against 'stupid people'. Whether they were stupid in card sense or stupid because they chose to bet on a game where Ricky Jay could touch the deck was left ambiguous. The stuff cardsharps do is a little bit different from magic, no flash, high percentage, but its the same basic skill set.
Some of the cold reading techniques of mentalists were likely very similar to what some of the big con guys did in the 1920s - 50s. But none of those guys ever worked on stage.
And yes, 3 cup monte = the cups and the balls, which is probably the world's oldest magic trick.
posted by BigSky at 8:22 PM on May 15, 2007 [1 favorite]
2. Not that's been discussed in a lot of detail. Ricky Jay's mentor, Vernon Dai, spent a lot of time traveling around the country learning from cardsharps as well as other magicians. There is a book out that tells how he learned an 'impossible' trick, dealing from the middle of the deck, from a midwest cardsharp. I don't think Vernon Dai ever used any of his skills to fleece people. Ricky Jay has commented that he made a fair amount of cash for a few years playing poker against 'stupid people'. Whether they were stupid in card sense or stupid because they chose to bet on a game where Ricky Jay could touch the deck was left ambiguous. The stuff cardsharps do is a little bit different from magic, no flash, high percentage, but its the same basic skill set.
Some of the cold reading techniques of mentalists were likely very similar to what some of the big con guys did in the 1920s - 50s. But none of those guys ever worked on stage.
And yes, 3 cup monte = the cups and the balls, which is probably the world's oldest magic trick.
posted by BigSky at 8:22 PM on May 15, 2007 [1 favorite]
1. Yes, and it's called cheating which it happens every day. The victims are innocent, and the cheaters gain an advantage that often goes unnoticed.
2. For good examples of recent magicians who have been exposed, look no further than the current administration.
The irony is that somehow the exposure has had little effect on the cheaters' will to continue cheating. Assholes.
posted by |n$eCur3 at 9:58 PM on May 15, 2007
2. For good examples of recent magicians who have been exposed, look no further than the current administration.
The irony is that somehow the exposure has had little effect on the cheaters' will to continue cheating. Assholes.
posted by |n$eCur3 at 9:58 PM on May 15, 2007
grrr... *which happens* Whatever, you get the point. They are still assholes.
posted by |n$eCur3 at 10:00 PM on May 15, 2007
posted by |n$eCur3 at 10:00 PM on May 15, 2007
Ricky Jay's mentor, Vernon Dai
(Actually, Dai Vernon. Me=anal. :) Trivia: in the movie The Prestige, Christian Bale's stage name, The Professor, is an homage to Dai Vernon, who was also called The Professor.)
I have done magic since I was 9. I did use sleight of hand to convince my friends I had psychic ability. Key bending, mind reading, etc. But my conscience would never let me continue the charade. Not that I ever really intended to anyway. I would just assure them it was a trick, combined with psychology, skill blah blah. I often thought that if I had no conscience, I could make a good living, or even shoot for fame as a "psychic."
And, yes, Uri Geller was exposed as a fraud on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show, among other shows, by James Randi. Yet Geller still makes a good living as a "psychic and entertainer." Every psychic you see is a phony, so ya, plenty of people make a living fooling people. The examples of 3 card monte etc, are good as well.
But, if you are wondering if a magician could make a living by, say, breaking into safes, then disappearing, or other "supernatural" things, no. Keep in mind that, even in impromptu performances, the magician must have control. No magician can perform his wonders in a truly controlled environment. Which is why Geller, nor any other psychic will ever succeed in Randi's Million Dollar Challenge.
Having said all that: a skilled magician can indeed use his skill to help commit crimes. Experienced magicians have a lot of esoteric information, knowledge and skill of the psychology of deception, a comfort in making people trust them. They also have total control over their attitude, eye contact, and movements, appearing to be totally casual and relaxed, when in fact they are doing something deceptive. A magician who studied lockpicking or pick-pocketing could of course use those skills to commit crimes. But it doesn't take a magician to do that. They can also use sleight of hand to facilitate shoplifting. (I am not proud of it, but I did exactly that as a teen. Just small-ticket items; but without my skill as a magician, I would have never been as, uh, successful, and would surely have gotten caught.) There have been other times throughout my life that my training and skill have been helpful in everyday life situations, whether in just the knowledge and practice of psychology and control, or in numerous situations, hiding money or other valuables from thugs.
In short, it's way easier to just steal stuff the "regular" way than to try and think of ways to use sleight of hand to do it. It's easier, and less risky to make money as a magician by actually performing.
posted by The Deej at 11:49 PM on May 15, 2007
(Actually, Dai Vernon. Me=anal. :) Trivia: in the movie The Prestige, Christian Bale's stage name, The Professor, is an homage to Dai Vernon, who was also called The Professor.)
I have done magic since I was 9. I did use sleight of hand to convince my friends I had psychic ability. Key bending, mind reading, etc. But my conscience would never let me continue the charade. Not that I ever really intended to anyway. I would just assure them it was a trick, combined with psychology, skill blah blah. I often thought that if I had no conscience, I could make a good living, or even shoot for fame as a "psychic."
And, yes, Uri Geller was exposed as a fraud on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show, among other shows, by James Randi. Yet Geller still makes a good living as a "psychic and entertainer." Every psychic you see is a phony, so ya, plenty of people make a living fooling people. The examples of 3 card monte etc, are good as well.
But, if you are wondering if a magician could make a living by, say, breaking into safes, then disappearing, or other "supernatural" things, no. Keep in mind that, even in impromptu performances, the magician must have control. No magician can perform his wonders in a truly controlled environment. Which is why Geller, nor any other psychic will ever succeed in Randi's Million Dollar Challenge.
Having said all that: a skilled magician can indeed use his skill to help commit crimes. Experienced magicians have a lot of esoteric information, knowledge and skill of the psychology of deception, a comfort in making people trust them. They also have total control over their attitude, eye contact, and movements, appearing to be totally casual and relaxed, when in fact they are doing something deceptive. A magician who studied lockpicking or pick-pocketing could of course use those skills to commit crimes. But it doesn't take a magician to do that. They can also use sleight of hand to facilitate shoplifting. (I am not proud of it, but I did exactly that as a teen. Just small-ticket items; but without my skill as a magician, I would have never been as, uh, successful, and would surely have gotten caught.) There have been other times throughout my life that my training and skill have been helpful in everyday life situations, whether in just the knowledge and practice of psychology and control, or in numerous situations, hiding money or other valuables from thugs.
In short, it's way easier to just steal stuff the "regular" way than to try and think of ways to use sleight of hand to do it. It's easier, and less risky to make money as a magician by actually performing.
posted by The Deej at 11:49 PM on May 15, 2007
Illusionist Penn Jillette (of Penn & Teller) wrote How to Cheat Your Friends at Poker. I haven't read it yet, but I'm guessing he, or someone equally skilled at misdirection, did some research.
posted by booksandlibretti at 12:06 AM on May 16, 2007
posted by booksandlibretti at 12:06 AM on May 16, 2007
Illusionist Penn Jillette (of Penn & Teller) wrote How to Cheat Your Friends at Poker. I haven't read it yet
I have. It's awful.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:40 AM on May 16, 2007
I have. It's awful.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:40 AM on May 16, 2007
There is a book out that tells how he learned an 'impossible' trick, dealing from the middle of the deck, from a midwest cardsharp.
This, on the other hand, is wonderful.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:44 AM on May 16, 2007
This, on the other hand, is wonderful.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:44 AM on May 16, 2007
Learning magic tricks is so difficult that thieves, who thieve because earning money is too much trouble, can't be bothered. Crime is all about easy money. This is why people get caught.
If you're a magician, the fact you have the sheer patience to learn tricks marks you out as a different kind of person—somebody who is preferred to put in the work. You learn discipline.
So, no, an incompetent magician isn't likely to turn to crime.
I don't think you're right when you say that a magician can fool people most of the time. He fools people in very controlled situations, when he's on a stage. He's in complete control. He holds the mike so people only hear his voice. People won't walk around him, for example, and risk seeing how the trick works. He will actually physically position any volunteers. The audience are all in front of him, sitting down, and he shows them what he wants them to see. If he lets a volunteer from the audience inspect something, he'll rush them through it, so it's only a token inspection.
Out on the street, the magician has less control. That's why street magic is so fascinating for us, and also for characters like David Blane—there's an element of unpredictability and danger.
If you've ever seen those "Behind the Magician's Code"-type programs, you'll also see that a lot of street magic fails, and they only use the good takes. If a magician was hustling, there wouldn't be any room for failure.
posted by humblepigeon at 5:39 AM on May 16, 2007
If you're a magician, the fact you have the sheer patience to learn tricks marks you out as a different kind of person—somebody who is preferred to put in the work. You learn discipline.
So, no, an incompetent magician isn't likely to turn to crime.
I don't think you're right when you say that a magician can fool people most of the time. He fools people in very controlled situations, when he's on a stage. He's in complete control. He holds the mike so people only hear his voice. People won't walk around him, for example, and risk seeing how the trick works. He will actually physically position any volunteers. The audience are all in front of him, sitting down, and he shows them what he wants them to see. If he lets a volunteer from the audience inspect something, he'll rush them through it, so it's only a token inspection.
Out on the street, the magician has less control. That's why street magic is so fascinating for us, and also for characters like David Blane—there's an element of unpredictability and danger.
If you've ever seen those "Behind the Magician's Code"-type programs, you'll also see that a lot of street magic fails, and they only use the good takes. If a magician was hustling, there wouldn't be any room for failure.
posted by humblepigeon at 5:39 AM on May 16, 2007
Have any magicians ever been exposed as using their skills for "evil"?
It's said that Rasputin and Nostradamus both used the power of hypnosis on people. But they were mystics, a walk of life which has always been associated with conning.
posted by humblepigeon at 5:43 AM on May 16, 2007
It's said that Rasputin and Nostradamus both used the power of hypnosis on people. But they were mystics, a walk of life which has always been associated with conning.
posted by humblepigeon at 5:43 AM on May 16, 2007
Humblepigeon is absolutely right. Thieves and criminals are all about the easy money. If they were able to develop a complex skill set which requires basic social skills, discipline, and civility they would be making more money and safer money by going legit.
Like others have pointed out, these skills overlap with entertainment and criminal endevours. but thats true of a lot of things. How many computer programmers go bad with viruses and spyware? Or doctors who attempt murder? Or actors who perform fraud?
I cannot think of any well-known stage magician who switched to a life of crime. You would think the negative PR of being caught lifting a wallet would be a career-killer thus they probably arent doing this kind of this casually.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:39 AM on May 16, 2007
Like others have pointed out, these skills overlap with entertainment and criminal endevours. but thats true of a lot of things. How many computer programmers go bad with viruses and spyware? Or doctors who attempt murder? Or actors who perform fraud?
I cannot think of any well-known stage magician who switched to a life of crime. You would think the negative PR of being caught lifting a wallet would be a career-killer thus they probably arent doing this kind of this casually.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:39 AM on May 16, 2007
There are 2 Derren Brown clips on Youtube where he shows how to win on losing tickets at a dog track. In the beginning of the clip he talks about 'not doing it anymore because its not entirely fair'.
Part 1
Part 2
The part that cracks me up is that he pulls an Obi-Wan and says "This is the dog you're looking for."
posted by o0dano0o at 9:24 AM on May 16, 2007
Part 1
Part 2
The part that cracks me up is that he pulls an Obi-Wan and says "This is the dog you're looking for."
posted by o0dano0o at 9:24 AM on May 16, 2007
I think you're asking about magicians who are stealing while working as magicians. My common sense (and too many bad novels) tells me this isn't a winning idea because people remember magicians...straight up pick-pockets strive to be unremarkable. The idea about doing a switch...they would have to have a decent-enough-to-fool-you-for-a-bit replica of what Joe Random happened to be carrying ready, which is massively unpredictable, you're more likely to see switches on shady street corners where, e.g., you buy a digital camera and they box up a bag of salt and hand it to you. (True story.)
posted by anaelith at 9:57 AM on May 16, 2007
posted by anaelith at 9:57 AM on May 16, 2007
There are 2 Derren Brown clips on Youtube where he shows how to win on losing tickets at a dog track.
Be careful what you believe about Derren Brown. He's a gifted showman but he openly admits that he lies and cheats. I would be very skeptical about whether he was actually winning on the tickets. I would anticipate a lot of preparation, maybe pre-hypnosis of the victims, and possibly the use of actors (remember that it's not always obvious when actors are actually acting).
posted by humblepigeon at 6:05 AM on May 17, 2007
Be careful what you believe about Derren Brown. He's a gifted showman but he openly admits that he lies and cheats. I would be very skeptical about whether he was actually winning on the tickets. I would anticipate a lot of preparation, maybe pre-hypnosis of the victims, and possibly the use of actors (remember that it's not always obvious when actors are actually acting).
posted by humblepigeon at 6:05 AM on May 17, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by rhizome at 7:23 PM on May 15, 2007