How to stop my sister's dog's newly aggressive behavior towards his new roommate?
May 8, 2007 9:25 PM Subscribe
My sister and her dog just moved into a new apartment with a new roommate and "new" dog last weekend. Now her never before aggressive dog is attacking the "new" dog. What do we do?
My sister's dog is 1.5 year old neutered male black lab. The "new" dog is about 2 years old and a neutered male lab/border collie mix. The "new" dog has been living at the apartment as an only dog his whole life. My sister's dog and the "new" dog had never met until this last weekend because my sister and her dog moved from out of state.
My sister and her dog had been living with me and my 5 y.o. spayed female lab mix ever since we got him as a stray about a year ago. He has been a bit of a hyper active lab puppy, but he has never been aggressive towards other dogs. In fact, my dog was the dominant dog and was aggressive towards my sister's dog from time to time.
So, the "new" dog has not been aggressive at all towards sis' dog, and they seemed to get alond swimmingly at first. Then my sis' dog started snarling and growling at the "new" dog--mainly when sis' dog was sitting next to me or my sister (I helped them move) and "new" dog came near. The "new" dog didn't really respond. Sis' dog has lunged at the "new" dog a time or two, but hasn't bit him, yet. Though he has bitten me once when I tried to break up the fray and now my sister when she tried to break it up (at the expense of five stitches). I want to make it clear that he is not intending to bite us, it is our own stupid fault that we got bit. He has never been aggressive towards people
My gut feeling is that my sis' dog is freaked out from driving 800 miles and the new surroundings, and will settle down once he gets adjusted. My sis' gut feeling is that my dog's dominance over her dog has caused him to now be aggressive towards a mild mannered dog now that he has the chance. All the information I have found deals with the already established dog being aggressive towards the new dog, not the other way around. How does she put an end to this behavior quickly? Bonus points for any recommendations for affordable dog trainers in the Long Beach, CA area.
My sister's dog is 1.5 year old neutered male black lab. The "new" dog is about 2 years old and a neutered male lab/border collie mix. The "new" dog has been living at the apartment as an only dog his whole life. My sister's dog and the "new" dog had never met until this last weekend because my sister and her dog moved from out of state.
My sister and her dog had been living with me and my 5 y.o. spayed female lab mix ever since we got him as a stray about a year ago. He has been a bit of a hyper active lab puppy, but he has never been aggressive towards other dogs. In fact, my dog was the dominant dog and was aggressive towards my sister's dog from time to time.
So, the "new" dog has not been aggressive at all towards sis' dog, and they seemed to get alond swimmingly at first. Then my sis' dog started snarling and growling at the "new" dog--mainly when sis' dog was sitting next to me or my sister (I helped them move) and "new" dog came near. The "new" dog didn't really respond. Sis' dog has lunged at the "new" dog a time or two, but hasn't bit him, yet. Though he has bitten me once when I tried to break up the fray and now my sister when she tried to break it up (at the expense of five stitches). I want to make it clear that he is not intending to bite us, it is our own stupid fault that we got bit. He has never been aggressive towards people
My gut feeling is that my sis' dog is freaked out from driving 800 miles and the new surroundings, and will settle down once he gets adjusted. My sis' gut feeling is that my dog's dominance over her dog has caused him to now be aggressive towards a mild mannered dog now that he has the chance. All the information I have found deals with the already established dog being aggressive towards the new dog, not the other way around. How does she put an end to this behavior quickly? Bonus points for any recommendations for affordable dog trainers in the Long Beach, CA area.
Snarling and growling and barking furball = dogs having a discussion.
Similar age, same sex is a recipe for repeated, ongoing discussions. Or, sometimes, worse. If a dog switches from barking growling snarling "fighting" to quiet fighting, that's bad.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:59 PM on May 8, 2007
Similar age, same sex is a recipe for repeated, ongoing discussions. Or, sometimes, worse. If a dog switches from barking growling snarling "fighting" to quiet fighting, that's bad.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:59 PM on May 8, 2007
Two thoughts:
1. how much experience have you and your sister had watching dogs play-fight? can you tell from their body language when they are OK and when they are getting aggressive? (As a fairly new puppy owner, it took me a while to calm down about normal rough-housing)
2. It sounds like the dog feels the need to protect your sister. She should be the "pack leader" - she needs to let him know that she is in charge - she will look out for him, he doesn't need to protect her. I don't know enough to tell you how to do it but this is what I do when my dog is barking at outdoor noises. I walk over, open the door, tell him "Thanks for warning me, I have checked things out and everything is fine." He believes me and stops barking. (No, he doesn't understand English but he knows that I have taken over and he can rest easy.)
posted by metahawk at 10:06 PM on May 8, 2007
1. how much experience have you and your sister had watching dogs play-fight? can you tell from their body language when they are OK and when they are getting aggressive? (As a fairly new puppy owner, it took me a while to calm down about normal rough-housing)
2. It sounds like the dog feels the need to protect your sister. She should be the "pack leader" - she needs to let him know that she is in charge - she will look out for him, he doesn't need to protect her. I don't know enough to tell you how to do it but this is what I do when my dog is barking at outdoor noises. I walk over, open the door, tell him "Thanks for warning me, I have checked things out and everything is fine." He believes me and stops barking. (No, he doesn't understand English but he knows that I have taken over and he can rest easy.)
posted by metahawk at 10:06 PM on May 8, 2007
Response by poster: Metahawk, in response to number 1, yes we have experience with how her dog play fights and this is something different. To number 2, I suspect that part of the problem is that my sister isn't entirely comfortable in the new surroundings either. She doesn't know her new human roommate very well and the fact that her dog is attacking his dog is mortifying to her. But at the same time, it's not as though she was giving up her pack leader role; she was bit while attempting to tell the dog it was inappropriate for him to take charge. I guess the trick is how to merge the two packs (her roommate and his dog and her and her dog) as one.
posted by Dr. Lurker at 10:18 PM on May 8, 2007
posted by Dr. Lurker at 10:18 PM on May 8, 2007
I would also guess, as you do, that this behavior is being driven by stress.
It's important to avoid the situations that create this antagonism -- you absolutely do not want to establish it as a pattern of behavior. And especially so if you and your sister are getting bitten trying to intervene.
It'll be inconvenient to have to be so careful about it, but less so than having to move (or worse), and over time it should get better. But definitely start making phone calls to trainers now. To be honest, the dog really shouldn't bite you or your sister, no matter what. It's doing it while stressed and in the middle of a fight can only partly account for it -- it's also a breakdown in the pack hierarchy.
posted by mattpfeff at 11:56 PM on May 8, 2007
It's important to avoid the situations that create this antagonism -- you absolutely do not want to establish it as a pattern of behavior. And especially so if you and your sister are getting bitten trying to intervene.
It'll be inconvenient to have to be so careful about it, but less so than having to move (or worse), and over time it should get better. But definitely start making phone calls to trainers now. To be honest, the dog really shouldn't bite you or your sister, no matter what. It's doing it while stressed and in the middle of a fight can only partly account for it -- it's also a breakdown in the pack hierarchy.
posted by mattpfeff at 11:56 PM on May 8, 2007
Not a dog owner, but I have often enjoyed watching the dog agility and obedience classes at El Dorado park, in Long Beach. http://www.longbeach.gov/park/recreation/canine.asp
posted by jvilter at 12:03 AM on May 9, 2007
posted by jvilter at 12:03 AM on May 9, 2007
Consider distracting them as soon as it happens. I've never tried it but a rattle bottle is supposed to do the trick.
posted by humblepigeon at 3:18 AM on May 9, 2007
posted by humblepigeon at 3:18 AM on May 9, 2007
What ROU_Xenophobe said - same sex similar age dogs are often incompatible, permanently. They should be prepared to keep these dogs separated 100% if things do not improve. In a "natural" situation (where dogs rarely kill or even seriously injure one another), dogs who took a serious dislike to each other would argue until one or the other left, since this rarely happens in a domestic situation, the tension can escalate until they are likely to seriously harm or kill each other.
Please do not label this "protecting", it is not protecting if there is no danger, and "defending" a person against another dog which is not posing a threat is resource guarding which is a strong indicator that there is a problem between owner and dog. It is also unlikely to be a matter of dominance (people do not understand dominance well at all as a general rule and make all kinds of assumptions about it) - the reason this dog got along reasonably well with the female is that she was female (and a male dog who attacks a female dog on anything like a regular basis is a dog who has something wrong with it). This is a common problem with no easy resolution, and trying to break up a dog fight is extremely dangerous, as you have both learned - if the dogs are fighting to the extent that two people have been bitten, I would frankly feel that these dogs are simply not going to get along, period. Your sister should look for another place to live.
I would be very careful to only allow these dogs to be around each other at least for the time being when there is plenty of space for them to maintain socially-appropriate distances from each other and where they can escape from each other, I would not be allowing them to be with each other indoors and I would urge the dogs' owners to be prepared for the fact that this may not be a resolvable situation (I lived for six years with two male dogs, both neutered, who wanted to kill each other, it is not pleasant and I will never again own same sex, similar age dogs, ever - people VASTLY underestimate how much of a danger to humans and each other dogs who don't like each other can be, and they also assume that dogs will just learn to get along and I assure you that this is very often not the case). Sorry.
posted by biscotti at 5:21 AM on May 9, 2007
Please do not label this "protecting", it is not protecting if there is no danger, and "defending" a person against another dog which is not posing a threat is resource guarding which is a strong indicator that there is a problem between owner and dog. It is also unlikely to be a matter of dominance (people do not understand dominance well at all as a general rule and make all kinds of assumptions about it) - the reason this dog got along reasonably well with the female is that she was female (and a male dog who attacks a female dog on anything like a regular basis is a dog who has something wrong with it). This is a common problem with no easy resolution, and trying to break up a dog fight is extremely dangerous, as you have both learned - if the dogs are fighting to the extent that two people have been bitten, I would frankly feel that these dogs are simply not going to get along, period. Your sister should look for another place to live.
I would be very careful to only allow these dogs to be around each other at least for the time being when there is plenty of space for them to maintain socially-appropriate distances from each other and where they can escape from each other, I would not be allowing them to be with each other indoors and I would urge the dogs' owners to be prepared for the fact that this may not be a resolvable situation (I lived for six years with two male dogs, both neutered, who wanted to kill each other, it is not pleasant and I will never again own same sex, similar age dogs, ever - people VASTLY underestimate how much of a danger to humans and each other dogs who don't like each other can be, and they also assume that dogs will just learn to get along and I assure you that this is very often not the case). Sorry.
posted by biscotti at 5:21 AM on May 9, 2007
I think your sister's dog needs correction as soon as he makes any agressive move toward the new dog. I would do that by putting a choke chain on him and giving it a sharp, quick tug the second he even thinks about growling or lunging or anything else. This is not meant to hurt him, just to teach him that his behaviour is unacceptable. If your sister doesn't have experience with correcting dogs like this or if it makes her uncomfortable, a dog trainer should be able to help.
As your sister found out, she's not helping anything by using her hands to break up the dogs once they've gotten to the point of open agressiveness. It's all about stopping the undesireable behaviour before it gets to that point. Going forward, she should probably leave a leash on him in the house so she can safely break up fights in the future or correct him if he shows agression.
There's no saying what's causing the dog's behavior (although I'd vote stress), but it really doesn't matter. If she doesn't stop the behavior immediately, it will become a habit that's difficult to break. I wouldn't sit around waiting for the dog to "de-stress."
I also think that long, frequent exercise will cure a lot of dog "ailments." Is she walking him enough? I would try for two 1 hour walks every day, at least until he gets settled.
posted by robinpME at 6:15 AM on May 9, 2007
As your sister found out, she's not helping anything by using her hands to break up the dogs once they've gotten to the point of open agressiveness. It's all about stopping the undesireable behaviour before it gets to that point. Going forward, she should probably leave a leash on him in the house so she can safely break up fights in the future or correct him if he shows agression.
There's no saying what's causing the dog's behavior (although I'd vote stress), but it really doesn't matter. If she doesn't stop the behavior immediately, it will become a habit that's difficult to break. I wouldn't sit around waiting for the dog to "de-stress."
I also think that long, frequent exercise will cure a lot of dog "ailments." Is she walking him enough? I would try for two 1 hour walks every day, at least until he gets settled.
posted by robinpME at 6:15 AM on May 9, 2007
Response by poster: For others who may be looking at this thread later, here are two articles I have since found which I found enlightening.
posted by Dr. Lurker at 8:56 AM on May 9, 2007
posted by Dr. Lurker at 8:56 AM on May 9, 2007
A five stitch bite from a normally well mannered family pet, even if it is a result of displacement aggression is a serious matter. This is not a situation where you should be taking specific training advice from Joe Internet who heard from his third cousin a way to fix it from watching the TV. In fact, I would very strongly caution you from using any aversive training. A dog that is already stimulated, stressed, and pissed off is not going to reach calm (which is what you are hoping for) by being hit, yelled at, shocked, alpha rolled, or any other form of "dominance". The most likely scenario is that he will form a connection of "I see new dog, bad things happen to me. I now really want to keep new dog away!" Even if you manage to curb his outward signs like growling or snarling, you won't cure his mindset. Instead what you will have is a dog that won't tell you when he's scared or angry or pissed off. So next time something pushes him over the edge, you may not get any warning.
I would look into training with a qualified trainer. This means Association of Pet Dog Trainers at a minimum, no use of shock collars or "alpha rolls" or other training methods that are about training using physical violence, even under the guise of "getting his attention." Also avoid anybody whose first step is to immediately force a confrontation, if this is going to be fixed it will not be done by throwing him into the scenario again and asking for him to remain calm. Much like working with phobias, you need to keep him at a level that he can calmly handle in a controlled way. Research has shown that cortisol levels in dogs will rise and keep rising when placed into stressful situations until the anticipation of the trigger event can be many times more stressful than the levels after the first event. So more stress, more anxiety, things start to serious escalate out of the control. Remember, your goal is to reach a state of calm and control and you get there by practicing those things.
A solid obedience course can change the dynamic from property that needs to be guarded and into an actual working relationship. If you can't call him away from a squirrel, you can't expect to get his attention here. In the short term, give him more exercise, organize his free time by giving him a job to occupy his mind, have him say please before you do him a favor (giving him a toy or feeding him dinner) by having him obey a simple command, and give him a place to go that is safe from the other dog. It is especially important that mealtimes are not a time of contention, remove him to his crate or area and give him some peace when he eats.
Like biscotti and ROU_Xenophobe said (and if you listen to any advice on a dog thread on mefi, theirs are the ones to listen to) those two dogs may never get along. You may be able to manage the situation but be very very suspicious of promises of quick fixes. And keep in mind that if your mild mannered sister was the one suddenly getting into fistfights and screaming matches with her roommate, people would be telling her to move.
posted by hindmost at 2:36 PM on May 9, 2007
I would look into training with a qualified trainer. This means Association of Pet Dog Trainers at a minimum, no use of shock collars or "alpha rolls" or other training methods that are about training using physical violence, even under the guise of "getting his attention." Also avoid anybody whose first step is to immediately force a confrontation, if this is going to be fixed it will not be done by throwing him into the scenario again and asking for him to remain calm. Much like working with phobias, you need to keep him at a level that he can calmly handle in a controlled way. Research has shown that cortisol levels in dogs will rise and keep rising when placed into stressful situations until the anticipation of the trigger event can be many times more stressful than the levels after the first event. So more stress, more anxiety, things start to serious escalate out of the control. Remember, your goal is to reach a state of calm and control and you get there by practicing those things.
A solid obedience course can change the dynamic from property that needs to be guarded and into an actual working relationship. If you can't call him away from a squirrel, you can't expect to get his attention here. In the short term, give him more exercise, organize his free time by giving him a job to occupy his mind, have him say please before you do him a favor (giving him a toy or feeding him dinner) by having him obey a simple command, and give him a place to go that is safe from the other dog. It is especially important that mealtimes are not a time of contention, remove him to his crate or area and give him some peace when he eats.
Like biscotti and ROU_Xenophobe said (and if you listen to any advice on a dog thread on mefi, theirs are the ones to listen to) those two dogs may never get along. You may be able to manage the situation but be very very suspicious of promises of quick fixes. And keep in mind that if your mild mannered sister was the one suddenly getting into fistfights and screaming matches with her roommate, people would be telling her to move.
posted by hindmost at 2:36 PM on May 9, 2007
IANADogWhisperer -- Have the two dogs meet and play with each other in a neutral area like a park, for a while. Keep them seperated for the most part if possible, and gradually reintroduce.
posted by vanoakenfold at 2:09 PM on May 10, 2007
posted by vanoakenfold at 2:09 PM on May 10, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
The dogs just need some time and space to work things out. This may involve them making loud, scary noises and some tussling. But unless either dog has previously been noticed not to respond to the submissive gestures of other dogs (did they ever get in a fight and keep attacking after the other dog rolled over, etc?), I think you have very little to worry about, in terms of their safety. This is counter-intuitive, I guess, but stop getting in the middle of the fight, and they'll figure out who's boss.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 9:46 PM on May 8, 2007