Former GF, now friend, and now I wonder if she should be my wife . . .

April 20, 2007 12:32 PM

Broke up with her over a year ago; we're still good friends; I never got over her; now I think she might be "the one." What the hell do I do?

There are two ways you can answer this AskMeFi: Jump to the short, to-the-point question, or read the backstory and offer insights/advice/thoughts on that and, in so doing, indirectly answer the “to-the-point” question as well.

The short question (and yeah, it’s a classic): For those of you who are (or were) married, how did you know this was the person to marry, and what would you say to folks like me who wonder what the telltale signs are?

Now, the longer backstory. I am a 32-year-old guy who’s presently single and pretty much taking a break from dating, and I’m Indian (of the south Asian variety), albeit born and raised in the US. Of late, I’ve even been slightly less visible to my friends also. And I still can’t quite seem to “get over” my last girlfriend -- even though we (last) broke up in September, 2005 -- just over a year and a half ago. (Hell, that’s the same length of time we were together.) Like a couple of girlfriends before her, we became friends afterward, though after a sort of mandatory no-contact-whatosever period. I am 100% platonic with my previous girlfriends, but somehow I just can’t quite make that switch with this one.

Meanwhile, we hang out as friends, strictly platonically, aside from the occasional innocent, vaguely flirty comment (early on from her, then occasionally both of us, but nowadays only from me to her). Somewhere around last year, it kind of dawned on me that she sneakily climbed to “my best friend” status. I feel a level of comfort with her that I don’t with anyone else, except perhaps my GF before her at our peak. The few things I don’t feel I can share with her fall under the “every couple, even married couples, have a few secrets from each other” heading.

It was me who initiated the breakups -- this last one, and also a couple of mini-breakups that occurred during the time we were together and were on the order of days in length. The reason was the typically male curiosity about what else might be out there, standard fear of commitment, etc., which wasn’t helped by the fact that I’m a BIT of a late bloomer when it comes to the whole dating/relationships thing (not radically so, but somewhat so, especially by this culture’s standards). And also just a generalized sense I sometimes got that I really don’t know what I want. I’m also embarrassed to admit that some part of my reason for the last breakup was my parents’ reactions upon meeting her -- my father was ambivalent and unenthusiastic, but my mother was downright disapproving -- looks, weight, not showing “proper” Indian girl respect, and thin hair(!) were her issues. And something insanely vague along the lines of “she won’t fit in with our family.”

In the time since our breakup, I’ve re-evaluated a lot of these things. At times the looks/weight thing kind of bugged me, even when I was with her, but I’m beginning to really see what crap those things are. And meanwhile, this girl has remained just as attractive to me, if not more so. The weight thing is crap, too -- it isn’t even that big a deal to begin with, and hell, it’s not as if I’m some model of perfection myself in that department, either.

I freely admit I still love her; I never apparently stopped. I think it has to mean something that, unlike my previous GFs, I haven’t been able to transition over to a 100% platonic, no-feelings setup where my brain can’t even comprehend intimacy with the person. I politely ask her to not tell me about her dates (and secretly feel great relief that she hasn’t really clicked with anyone yet). A couple of months ago, we were going to a friend’s birthday party and stopped at a gift shop to find a card and a couple of balloons, and she (the ex-GF) saw a card that she thought was really sweet, one made for one person to give to a GF/BF/spouse. Last week, I went back to that gift shop and bought that card, maybe hoping on some level I could give it to her some day.

Occasionally I find myself saying things that hint to her that I haven’t let go, or say things like “well it’s not like I could tell [a girl I’d been dating for a few weeks, up until two months ago] that part of the reason I broke up with her is because I’m not over you!” and various other things that I know are unfairly sending mixed messages and creating confusion. I know it’s an asshole thing to do, which is why 75% of the time, I shut my mouth when I have these thoughts . . .

Oddly, in having her as a best friend, I see the traits that anyone would want in a spouse. I can more and more readily imagine her as one -- there’s no questioning how supportive she is and how well she treats me. She gives me just the right level of crap when I deserve it and the right level of unconditional understanding and help when that’s what’s required. There have been times when she’s been in a bad mood recently, and I have pleasantly surprised myself with the amount of patience and understanding I’ve had (something I’m NOT really known for with other people).

I’m kind of laying the groundwork with everyone else BUT her -- bringing up the notion of marriage and running it by friends, even telling the parents that I still think about her and haven’t quite moved on. And even they’re starting to be open to the idea. (I don’t have to say “marriage” because with Indian parents, just mentioning a person of the opposite sex makes them assume you’re talking marriage anyway.) But the somewhat ironic thing of all this is that I haven’t had the nerve to bring it up to her BECAUSE I love her and care about her so much. I already did a couple of “mini-breakups” as well as this “final” breakup in 2005, so I don’t get any more chances. I know that if I even broach the subject of getting back together, it’s going to have to come with some kind of plan for marriage; otherwise, she (rightfully) has no reason to entertain any more of my boy-who-cried-wolf crap.

Plus, of course, a large part of me is genuinely terrified that she’s moved on and wouldn’t be interested anyway.

I wonder if I haven’t begun to answer my own question here. In any event, I’d love to hear input from you, if you’ve managed to make it this far . . .

posted by CommonSense to human relations (34 comments total)

It was me who initiated the breakups...

You can't get her back. Even if she hasn't moved on agreed to get back with you, she wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) trust you. You messed up. Cut off contact, learn from it and find someone new.
posted by DU at 12:40 PM on April 20, 2007

There is no person out there that is "the one". There are many people on this planet with whom you could be happy, and you'll find another one. In the meantime, you need to back away from her until you're over this lingering emotional attachment.
posted by chrisamiller at 12:44 PM on April 20, 2007 [5 favorites]

You have indeed begun to answer your own question, CommonSense, and your clear and pretty much your only course of action is to talk this situation over with the ex with as much clarity as you've laid out in the question here. I might even suggest having her read this question, because I get a good sense of your ambivalence and also of the ambivalence being gone, now. It sounds to me like you want to be with her, and now you need to know whether she wants to be with you. If she does, everything is wonderful for you both, and if she does not, at least you both know where you stand. You sound as if you can handle either situation, so you need to have this conversation. Good luck.
posted by cgc373 at 12:44 PM on April 20, 2007

For goodness sakes, tell her! You're not really her friend; you're a person who is in love with her who is pretending to be her friend in order to be close to her. But understand that if you tell her and she doesn't feel the same way, you may not be able to stay close to her. However, because you're not really her friend anyway, as painful as that may be, you really have very little to lose here.

Stop talking to everyone else about this, ask her to have a cup of coffee with you, and tell her that you'd like to start dating again. Then, take it slow. Get to know one another romantically again. Try not to rush into things too quickly, and give her some time to adjust. Don't get too physical too fast. Don't let your family have too much input into this. And see what happens.

Best of luck to you!
posted by decathecting at 1:10 PM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

You've got two choices. Neither one is right or wrong.

1. Do as decathecting says. Lay all your cards on the table with her.

2. Tell yourself that you're going to get over her, and really commit to that—something I suspect you haven't tried. Date a lot. A good way to get over an old flame is to find a new one. It's not easy, but it can be done. As chrisamiller says, the idea that there is "the one" is a fantasy.

Note that you can try #1 and if it fails, move on to #2. You may thing better of trying #1 if it is likely to cause her much heartache, though. You can even try #2 and if after a few years, circle back around to #1—if she's still available.

There are a lot of couples that went through breakups before ultimately settling down together. My personal inclination is to let the past be the past, though.
posted by adamrice at 1:21 PM on April 20, 2007

* thing better = think better
posted by adamrice at 1:22 PM on April 20, 2007

This happened to me, like, nine or ten years ago. A year and a half after something ended, I regretted breaking up and tried to convince someone to get back together, but it was too late.

Now looking back, I think he was right to say "no." At that time, I still didn't have the relationship skills I would've needed -- it would've failed the exact same way. (Or I would've forced myself to press on and eventually become miserable.) Now, I've learned a bit, but (coincidentally?) I am no longer convinced he would've been right for me. The moral: my original wisdom in breaking up was smarter than all the changing my mind I did later.

But your situation may be much different, and your story may turn out much differently. :) Best of luck.
posted by salvia at 1:26 PM on April 20, 2007

If DU is right that you can't (and maybe shouldn't) be able to get her back, there are perhaps a dozen long term relationships of which I have personal knowledge that cannot possibly be, or which are normatively suspect in some regard. However,his/her advice does have the appeal of being unambiguous.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 1:27 PM on April 20, 2007

Why the "ABCD" tag, CommonSense?
posted by cgc373 at 1:33 PM on April 20, 2007

You've talked a lot about yourself here, but what about her? I think she might deserve someone who doesn't need years and multiple breakups and the advice of strangers to figure out she's the one.

But having said that, your friendship still sounds strong evne though you have no idea relationship and a good indicator of your compatibility. I think you should tell her but be prepared to lose her as a friend and move on if you don't get the answer you want.
posted by slowfasthazel at 1:40 PM on April 20, 2007

I would also like to state a point that you may have these feelings because she is in fact your best friend now and that you wouldn't be able to live without her in that sense.

... Answering your question on "the one"...
I recently just got married (a month ago tomorrow) and I can say that my husband is unlike anyone I had ever, ever met before. I knew he was the one when I had stopped thinking about myself and how I wanted to be happy and started thinking, for once, about someone else... him. All I ever wanted was for him to be happy, to feel loved and to feel respected. Respect is essential, you can like someone and their company and still lack that respect.

What I would look at first is are you really feeling this for her, as a lover, or are you feeling this because you never tried to think otherwise and you are lonely in this part of your life and looking for something familar to fill that void.

Personally, I would sit and reflect.. if it still points to her being "the one" then also think this.. can you risk the chance that she will walk away forever to find out if she is feeling the same way. I think that is the key.
Good luck and keep us updated.
posted by ForeverDcember at 1:41 PM on April 20, 2007

To answer your first question: I had never really wanted to get married (even when I was a kid), I liked my life just fine how it was, I was actively and consciously happy being single, but the second I met my now-husband I knew that we'd get married, that if I could be married to anyone, it would be him. I know people say that there is no "the one", but I really believe that my husband is my "one", and I knew it the instant I met him.

And, to segue into your next question: part of why he's "the one" is that we genuinely like each other. Love is important, but you have to actually like your spouse as a person to have it really work (in my experience). We are friends (and were friends first) as well as spice.

So yeah, you need to tell her, and showing her this thread would be one way to do it, I think you laid out how you feel very well, and you also assessed the situation very nicely. What is the worst that can happen? Would you rather spend the rest of your life wondering "what if"? But definitely take it slowly. Good luck!
posted by biscotti at 1:42 PM on April 20, 2007

*evne though you have no idea relationship*
oops, delete that!
posted by slowfasthazel at 1:43 PM on April 20, 2007

If you do decide to reconcile, please consider how you will handle your family. She doesn't deserve a hostile environment there. You will need to tell your parents, "This person is very important to me, I would like you to treat her with respect", and be prepared to take action if they do not.

First of all, I don't think there is a "one" either. Some people are better fits as spouses than others.

Secondly, I personally think best friends are ideal spouse material.

Thirdly, do something or let her go. If she's feeling the same way, you're basically keeping her hanging. Talk to her. Maybe not about marriage, but about giving your relationship another go.

Lastly, if it doesn't work this time, give each other some space. Really. No contact.
posted by b33j at 1:47 PM on April 20, 2007

ABCD = "American-born confused Desi"
posted by adamrice at 1:50 PM on April 20, 2007

You can't give her hints about how you feel. You would like her to put a whole lot of trust in you, and if you are to succeed then you need to make it absolutely 100% clear that you deserve that trust. This is about trust more than anything else.

I am a woman who was burned by a guy like you. When he came back with "hints" and showed "interest", I took the bait. He then disappeared and I learned my lesson, and I can tell you that I am never going to put myself in the position to be hurt like that again.

Simply consider how your overtones of interest are going to be taken. You're the one who broke up with her! If she has feelings for you at all then you are drudging up feelings only to stomp on them.

No, if you actually do deserve another chance, then you make it clear how you feel, you make it clear how things will be different, how much of a complete naive moron you've been, and above all *you* take the risk of rejection. You're terrified she'd moved on? Good. After a year and a half, and dumping her because your family didn't think she was attractive or subjugating herself enough, you probably don't deserve her back. Give it a try you might ruin the friendship, and you might get hurt, but anything less and you're failing to apologize for the mistake you made -- and if you ask her to bear the risk of rejection then you simply do not deserve another chance. And for god's sake, do NOT just ask her because you need to find a wife.

So IMO, the cards are stacked heavily against you and your only winning move involves raising the stakes. If you understand this and still want to try, then go for it.
posted by cotterpin at 1:50 PM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Stop fucking around and just tell her. "As we've gotten closer as friends and you've become more and more important to me I've realized I'd like to try being a couple again. Would you?"

At this point it's just a millstone around your neck. Stop carrying it around, you're not doing anyone any good. You're not helping your friendship with her by suppressing this, you're not helping your ability to Find Someone Special. You need to address this, either by bringing it up and giving it another try or by taking a step back. Either way it's going to impact her so just shit and get off the pot.

Whether it'll work out is a whole different story. It's easy after time goes by to forget all the reasons why something didn't work and tell yourself that Things Are Different Now. I'm skeptical of that concept, but at this point you need to take some kind of action. Even failure can be useful.
posted by phearlez at 1:54 PM on April 20, 2007

ABCD = American Born Confused Desi
Desi = Indian

I second moving on. The world is filled with people who just as easily could be "the one". You'll find someone else, and maybe this time it'll work. And if you're lucky you'll find that you can actually do the best friends thing with this girl too.

Also, if it's any consolation, your experience with this girl has probably made your parents more able to accept the next one, even if she is exactly the same as her.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:54 PM on April 20, 2007

Regarding the concept of "the one", I think that there isn't really such a thing as "the one", at least not in the cotext of one person out of all the billions of people on Earth who is meant to be yours and yours only. That said, I think that there is a person who you will meet in your travels who will become "the one", for want of a better term. I have met that person, finally, after almost 30 years of life, and we will be married soon. But if I can pass on any advice, don't think that this girl is "the one and only one", because she's not. I'd almost guarantee it.

In regards to whether you should even try to get her back, I would first ask you if you know whether or not you love her. I know you say you do, but I had felt feelings of what I thought was love in previous relationships and I now know better. So I ask again, are you sure you love her? Read this comment I made in a previous thread and then apply the litmus test. If she passes the test and you love her, then I think you should try to get her back. You owe it to yourself if it really is love.

But if she tells you where to go, in spite of all your best efforts, then leave it be. I know it's easier said than done, but the old adage that there are plenty of fish in the sea is 100% correct. You'll whine and moan that there will never be another like her and she was the one, but take it from me, who speaks from experience; there's always someone else.

Whatever happens, good luck to both you crazy kids!
posted by Effigy2000 at 1:57 PM on April 20, 2007

Personally I think you should tell her. I've been on the receiving end of that discussion and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

However, one caveat. My ex-boyfriend and I are wonderful, fabulous friends. I adore him and enjoy spending time with him. BUT, our relationship is way more mature and understanding since we broke up (5 years ago). Sometimes people are really good together as friends, but the pressure of being in a relationship makes it go wonky.

Good luck.
posted by teleri025 at 1:59 PM on April 20, 2007

Do it!
It won't be easy, but you'll regret it for the rest of your life if you don't try.
I am the girl in question in this thread, which is similar to your plight (although without the family disapproval, which is another can of worms) Eventually we did get back together and last night we decided that yes, cheesecake is the ultimate wedding cake.

Don't mind all these naysayers, they are scared of risk and pain. Happy endings are possible.
posted by idiotfactory at 2:30 PM on April 20, 2007

I would recommend telling her. If I were you, I would take her out for dinner and lay my cards on the table. Whatever you do, make sure you point out at least the following:

1. WHY you broke up with her [including your personal reasons and those of your parents].
2. WHAT you learned from the experience.
3. HOW you intend for it to be different.
4. TO WHAT EXTENT you would like to pursue the new relationship should there be one.

Basically, she needs to know you messed up, learnt from it and are willing to eat some humble-pie before she lets herself get involved with you (if she does).

And speaking as one indian guy to another... don't pay too much heed to your parent's advice. At the end of the day YOU have to live with her not them.
posted by gadha at 2:31 PM on April 20, 2007

tell her you made a huge mistake and you've been trying to live with it ever since. tell her what you told us.

my feeling is that she wouldn't still be so close to you if she weren't still interested in you (a lot of women remain friends with serious exes in the hopes that they'll come around and want them back). is she seeing anyone right now? if she is, then you might have a problem--you'll have to figure out how serious she is about this guy. but if she's single, i say the lights are green.

if she has moved on, well, you may not be as close as you once were. but considering you are having a hard time getting over her, that's probably a good thing, too. with less of her in your life, you will be able to focus more on other women who might make you happy. so telling her is a win/win (even if the second possibility doesn't feel so much like one at first).

good luck! there is no "one" person, of course, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't fight for her.
posted by thinkingwoman at 2:39 PM on April 20, 2007

As an ABCD, seconding and extending b33j's comment about family. Sure, you can ask her about going out again. But please don't waste her time if you are not 100% past your parents' comments, and absolutely willing to stand up for her. Please. Both of you have to be completely confident that your relationship and your opinion of her is impervious to their input. That's non-trivial if you have any kind of "traditional" family bonds. But it's going to kill you if every phone call or visit home results in doubts or fights. I've been lucky, but friends have had engagements broken by their parents, and it's awful for everyone involved.
posted by synapse at 3:02 PM on April 20, 2007

1. She's not "the one", she's "the best one you've got". There are lots of people in the world, she's just your favorite of the ones you know. Meet some new people.

2. Were you honest with her about your reasons for breaking up with her, and by that I mean the disapproval of your parents? If so, you could conceivably make the case that you've grown, you're more mature now, and in the time since the breakup you've grown more in love with her rather than less, and she's more important to you now than your parents. Perhaps that might get her back.

Trouble is, if you were honest, she'll know she'd be getting back into a relationship which (if it leads to marriage) would involve a secondary adversarial relationship with your parents. Nobody in their right mind wants to sign on to that; that sort of thing only appeals to people who enjoy drama, and that doesn't make for a long, happy marriage.

If you hid the reasons, that's bad too, because you'll be setting her up to possibly marry you someday -- only to be blindsided by the adversarial relationship between her and your parents.

3. I bet there's someone out there just as terrific, but without the baggage of your shared past (and who won't come in the door already labelled by your folks.) Perhaps you should look for her instead.
posted by davejay at 3:03 PM on April 20, 2007

Please read idiotfactory's comment and click through her link -- and note, e.g., the first comment there. And deal with the family issue as others have suggested.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 3:25 PM on April 20, 2007

Hi there. OP again, finally home after my 145-mile commute home from work. (I only do the trip once a week, so it all kinda balances out.)

Some replies:

I know very well there isn't just ONE person who's "the one." Who we eventually end up with is really just a crap shoot, based on where we're born, what we experience, who we meet, and a billion other factors, and I know there's numerous other "the one" candidates out there. This just happens to be the (possible) one that I've met. But yeah, I know that if nothing came of this, eventually I'd find another "one" if I had to.

One of the things I noticed after the breakup is that I did, in fact, notice that I was thinking about her and putting her first more -- at least to the extent that you can after you've broken up with a person and are just friends. (Now if only I'd evolved to that point while still with her!)

The family: I do believe they will come around. It's mainly my mother, actually, not the entire group, and I'd like to think 32 years has given me a chance to get to know her pretty well. And what I know is that when it comes to me, the one thing that matters to her more than anything else is that I'm happy. She has come around 180 degrees on other things in life (albeit none as huge as this) that she was initially totally opposed to. In the "testing the waters" I've done with her more recently, I already can see the mellowing.

I DO know that I have to be sure of this, and that's a lot of the reason I'm dragging my feet and wondering, and asking random strangers on the Internet for advice. :-)

FWIW, I have had these "can't get over her" feelings during the last 1.5 years -- more so during the last 8-10 months -- both during times when I was totally alone AND during periods where I was regularly dating someone. It has interfered in my ability to date others, because I know I'm not being fair to the other party (the last girl started getting quite into me, and I do rightly feel like a jerk for having wasted her time, but at least it was three months into it that I told her, and stuck with it). Where dating should've been a distraction, it hasn't been. I've even passed up an opportunity or two for relatively fun, casual "flings" because I just don't feel that into the whole idea.

Another note. Another reason for my initiating the breakup was that I self-diagnosed that I've got an unusually high need for "me time," just going off into my own world and being my own company. Girls aren't often big fans of that (though R -- the ex-GF in question -- did begin to adapt to it over the time we were together).

Effigy2000: I'd have to say I pass the litmus test. Or she passes it, depending on how you look at it.

gadha/synapse: Re the family, this is the very discussion I've revisited with myself in my head every few weeks, and as time has gone on, I move more and more into the "oh, screw it; they'll have to learn to understand" camp. I'm now pretty firmly there.

davejay: I was generally honest with her about the reasons for the breakup, except for the "my family's opinion was part of it, much as I hate to admit that" aspect. But she was well aware of my mother's feelings; it was pretty ambiguous when my mother flat-out TOLD her what she didn't like about her (well, 3/4 of it -- thankfully not all). I'd be a fool not to think that R does, in fact, suspect on some level that that was part of it, too. We're both Indian and we both know the irrational degree to which our parents' opinions play a role in our decisions. (I guess that's an Asian thing generally, for better or for worse.)

Clyde: I read the post and the first comment. So what you're saying is that it's dead? Sheesh . . .

This is probably REALLY unwise, but I'll share with you my profile on a certain dating site. I totally rewrote it to reflect my "taking a break from dating" status. I have a funny feeling some of you will decide you hate me more, while others will just find it irrelevent. I just feel like it gives a bit more insight into my utterly confused current mindstate.
posted by CommonSense at 5:02 PM on April 20, 2007

Well, if you're all hepped up on this concept of "the one" then you'd be an idiot for not telling her. Who are you to keep manifest destiny from fulfillment?

Obviously, if she says no, you're going to have to go out and find "the other one."
posted by DarlingBri at 5:05 PM on April 20, 2007

Clyde: I read the post and the first comment. So what you're saying is that it's dead? Sheesh . . .


Out of an abundance of caution, I will assume you're not joking. What I meant is that idiotfactory found true love when her more-idiotfactory boyfriend looked past the fact that he broke up with her and they tried again, DESPITE advice from a poster (like DU) that it was pointless to try. Or at least that's what I took the episode to suggest.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 5:29 PM on April 20, 2007

Clyde: Yeah, I wasn't joking. Maybe I misunderstood you before, so thanks for clarifying, in any event.
posted by CommonSense at 5:52 PM on April 20, 2007

If you're asking what you should do, I have no idea. If you are asking if you should take a risk to get what you want, the answer is yes.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:41 PM on April 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

Just picture her with the other guy. You'll get over her fast.
posted by spitbull at 6:22 AM on April 21, 2007

To paraphrase Jay-Z: "Son, you ain't rhyming like Common Sense."

You've clearly thought a lot about this - way too much, in my opinion. The thing to do now is to ask her out again on a romantic date. Court her. Make it clear what you're trying to do from the outset. Make no mention of why - no one cares about those things but you, and no one should have to. This would prevent her from having to cope with the 42 paragraphs of explanation and uncertainty you expressed here, which would be a good thing.

If she's not interested, and she may well not be after the shabby way you've treated her, move on.

Also, and this is a shot in the dark here, but you should take a good hard comparative look at the shabby way you've treated her and the way she treats you now.

Are you sure that part of the appeal of your idea isn't: here's a girl you can treat poorly, make her deal with all your issues; but in response she'll still treat you right? Kind of has to, in fact, because she's fat, ugly, has thin hair, and knows your parents don't like her? Unlike some of the other girls you've dated?

Like I said, I'm taking a shot in the dark here. But if there's any of that going on, you better take a long second look, because that's no basis for a sound relationship and you'll both be unhappy again.
posted by ikkyu2 at 12:48 PM on April 22, 2007

ikkyu2 is 100% right -- court her and get it out of the way. It's tempting to lay out your Grand Exposition to her, but that will ultimately do more harm than good. If she's still interested after all you've said and done in the past, then your present explanations are immaterial. And if she needs to be "convinced", then that's not a good position to restart from anyway.

Mathematically speaking, being good friends after a breakup makes it 258.1% harder to move on than a no-contact breakup, so the odds of simply "getting over her" have been stacked against you already. Ask and receive your resolution ASAP.
posted by DaShiv at 10:00 PM on April 22, 2007