Advice on interfaith marriage. (No, not those two faiths.)
April 12, 2007 9:31 AM
We're looking for advice on how to make a successful interfaith marriage. No, not those two faiths. A different two.
My fiancee practices an Afro-Cuban religion. I'm an ex-Buddhist atheist, currently church-less but still very interested in the questions that religion tries to answer. We love each other, we fight rarely (and fair), and we're happy together. Still, we want to be sure we're equipped to make this work and can approach the little blips and bumps with a level head, and we've got a hunch that religion will be a source of blips and bumps someday.
Obviously, nobody's written a book on how to make this particular combination work. What's really frustrating, though, are the books and websites that claim to have general advice for interfaith couples — and then give suggestions like "decide now where to baptize the kids" or "figure out where you'll attend services." Neither of us believes in baptism or goes anywhere on Sunday morning. Other things we agree on: evolution (yes), abortion (no), gender roles (equal), fundamentalism (stupid), eternal salvation (no such thing) and holidays (parties are fun).
The thing is, we do have plenty of other differences. She believes in posession by gods and ancestor spirits; I'm pretty sure it's self-hypnosis. She uses divination to help with hard decisions; I insist on following my gut. She'd rather get what she wants; I'd be just as happy to relinquish the desire. Living together, while usually lovely, has its little landmines too: her occasional ritual taboos, my wacky political ideals. And while I'm not scared she'll teach the kids I'm going to hell (see under: salvation, eternal) there are still questions about what we will teach them.
Specific advice on those issues would be nice if anyone's got any. (We'd be glad to tell you more about any of them if you think you'll have something to say, and my email's in my profile if you'd rather talk that way.) Barring that, we're hoping for general help that isn't so Judaeo-Christian–centered on dealing with religious differences. Books to read, sites or forums to browse, discussion points, stories, warnings, tips and food for thought would all be great.
My fiancee practices an Afro-Cuban religion. I'm an ex-Buddhist atheist, currently church-less but still very interested in the questions that religion tries to answer. We love each other, we fight rarely (and fair), and we're happy together. Still, we want to be sure we're equipped to make this work and can approach the little blips and bumps with a level head, and we've got a hunch that religion will be a source of blips and bumps someday.
Obviously, nobody's written a book on how to make this particular combination work. What's really frustrating, though, are the books and websites that claim to have general advice for interfaith couples — and then give suggestions like "decide now where to baptize the kids" or "figure out where you'll attend services." Neither of us believes in baptism or goes anywhere on Sunday morning. Other things we agree on: evolution (yes), abortion (no), gender roles (equal), fundamentalism (stupid), eternal salvation (no such thing) and holidays (parties are fun).
The thing is, we do have plenty of other differences. She believes in posession by gods and ancestor spirits; I'm pretty sure it's self-hypnosis. She uses divination to help with hard decisions; I insist on following my gut. She'd rather get what she wants; I'd be just as happy to relinquish the desire. Living together, while usually lovely, has its little landmines too: her occasional ritual taboos, my wacky political ideals. And while I'm not scared she'll teach the kids I'm going to hell (see under: salvation, eternal) there are still questions about what we will teach them.
Specific advice on those issues would be nice if anyone's got any. (We'd be glad to tell you more about any of them if you think you'll have something to say, and my email's in my profile if you'd rather talk that way.) Barring that, we're hoping for general help that isn't so Judaeo-Christian–centered on dealing with religious differences. Books to read, sites or forums to browse, discussion points, stories, warnings, tips and food for thought would all be great.
Ironically, my marriage is the same mix.
It seems like most of your concerns revolve around children. I am of the opinion that the best course of action is to not make children affiliate with any religion, ever. This goes doubly for one-faith marriages. It just fills their little minds with all sorts of confusing stuff. It's better to let them discover stuff on their own when they're older, if and when they're interested.
If you follow this guideline, the other disagreements you'll have will be little more than differences of opinion.
posted by milarepa at 10:02 AM on April 12, 2007
It seems like most of your concerns revolve around children. I am of the opinion that the best course of action is to not make children affiliate with any religion, ever. This goes doubly for one-faith marriages. It just fills their little minds with all sorts of confusing stuff. It's better to let them discover stuff on their own when they're older, if and when they're interested.
If you follow this guideline, the other disagreements you'll have will be little more than differences of opinion.
posted by milarepa at 10:02 AM on April 12, 2007
As a Buddhist, I'm curious why you're "ex," because it seems that a Buddhist wouldn't sweat this issue, and your reasons for being an "ex" may have something to do with your concern.
posted by desjardins at 10:04 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by desjardins at 10:04 AM on April 12, 2007
desjardins: Many Buddhists certainly care about how their children are raised and what they are taught and it's simply silly to suggest otherwise.
posted by milarepa at 10:09 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by milarepa at 10:09 AM on April 12, 2007
I'm the other half of this question... The fiancee :) Our little landmines are rather odd. I once said to him that I wouldn't shed a tear if a child molester got beat to death in prison for being a child molester. (please keep it about the question and not about prison or dead child molesters). This got a bit twisted and he thought that I wanted all child molesters tarred, feathered and burned at the steak by the general public. It wasn't a big fight, but it got heated and took me about 15min to calm down. It's odd stuff like that, that's the most clear one I can recall. I can't remember the other ones.
With my religion, a divination is considered to be that god is telling you something. I take that seriously, I know he respects that, but can be cause for worry since we don't practice the same religion. I can understand he doesn't want his life turned upside because my gods want something difficult. On the other hand, I'm still going to do this difficult thing because it's very important to me. We're trying to figure out how to come to a compromise on this, and a little stuck...
I hope that helps clear it up a little
posted by Attackpanda at 10:13 AM on April 12, 2007
With my religion, a divination is considered to be that god is telling you something. I take that seriously, I know he respects that, but can be cause for worry since we don't practice the same religion. I can understand he doesn't want his life turned upside because my gods want something difficult. On the other hand, I'm still going to do this difficult thing because it's very important to me. We're trying to figure out how to come to a compromise on this, and a little stuck...
I hope that helps clear it up a little
posted by Attackpanda at 10:13 AM on April 12, 2007
milarepa: sorry, not what I meant at all. What I meant was, as a Buddhist, I don't see why there would be any issues/concern about what my partner believes. I mean, that's her karma, right? He's evidently respectful of her beliefs, but the disparity between them still causes him concern since he raised the question (and used the word "landmines").
posted by desjardins at 10:18 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by desjardins at 10:18 AM on April 12, 2007
The Dovetail Institute offers lots of material for interfaith couples including a great worksheet.
What you need to be comfortable with is each other.
posted by parmanparman at 10:27 AM on April 12, 2007
What you need to be comfortable with is each other.
posted by parmanparman at 10:27 AM on April 12, 2007
Teach them respect and understanding and 'tolerance' (I hate that word because it implies already some kind of superiority complex).
I kind of agree with not forcing a kid to follow one of the other. Answer your children's questions (which they will have inevitably), and if they ask why you two are different, and insists on figuring out which one is the 'real answer', teach them that that wasn't the attitude that fosters the love between their parents. And honestly, a lot of things about both cultures/relgions are too complicated for them to fully understand or be able to 'decide' which one they prefer.
Your children will pick up on the two religions as they grow up, just like kids pick up on the traditions of different cultures, and they will be exposed enough to contrary information from external sources that they will ultimately decide for themselves who they want to become, and how they want to grow up. A lot of that isn't really in your control anyway; kids are shaped by a lot of different sources, even though it is true that in the first few years, they form a mold that will be with them for the rest of their lives.
I think understanding respect and tolerance is a pretty good foundation that both you and your fiancée can agree to, no matter what other differences in child-rearing styles you might approach.
(As an aside, it is my understand that buddhist thought expressly says that there are many ways to attaining enlightenment, and there is no one 'right' way. What works for you doesn't work for someone else, etc. Maybe keep that in mind when you find yourself feeling, "well she does that and I respect it but I'm not sure if I want my kid to feel that way". Just remember that it is possible that your kid will you like you in some ways, and like your fiancée in others. Can't control that, but good on both of you for anticipating this and working it out!)
posted by margaretlam at 10:30 AM on April 12, 2007
I kind of agree with not forcing a kid to follow one of the other. Answer your children's questions (which they will have inevitably), and if they ask why you two are different, and insists on figuring out which one is the 'real answer', teach them that that wasn't the attitude that fosters the love between their parents. And honestly, a lot of things about both cultures/relgions are too complicated for them to fully understand or be able to 'decide' which one they prefer.
Your children will pick up on the two religions as they grow up, just like kids pick up on the traditions of different cultures, and they will be exposed enough to contrary information from external sources that they will ultimately decide for themselves who they want to become, and how they want to grow up. A lot of that isn't really in your control anyway; kids are shaped by a lot of different sources, even though it is true that in the first few years, they form a mold that will be with them for the rest of their lives.
I think understanding respect and tolerance is a pretty good foundation that both you and your fiancée can agree to, no matter what other differences in child-rearing styles you might approach.
(As an aside, it is my understand that buddhist thought expressly says that there are many ways to attaining enlightenment, and there is no one 'right' way. What works for you doesn't work for someone else, etc. Maybe keep that in mind when you find yourself feeling, "well she does that and I respect it but I'm not sure if I want my kid to feel that way". Just remember that it is possible that your kid will you like you in some ways, and like your fiancée in others. Can't control that, but good on both of you for anticipating this and working it out!)
posted by margaretlam at 10:30 AM on April 12, 2007
With the exception of the divination thing, most of these differences can be resolved through compromise, something you need in a relationship no matter what religions are involved. As for bearing children, to each their own, but maybe you should teach them about all the religions and let them make their own choice. It gives kids the freedom to think about their faith and to take it seriously, rather than be blinded into something that may not actually groove with their values when they're adults.
posted by Menomena at 10:34 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by Menomena at 10:34 AM on April 12, 2007
I want to ditto what milarepa said (and others) about allowing children to come to their own discovery of religion/spirituality. My parents were of very differing faiths, and those faiths changed a few times while I was growing up as my parents explored for themselves. They went about their daily lives and followed their beliefs, answering questions if I asked them but not sitting me down to teach me one, the other or either. When I got old enough to really start to wonder about god, the universe and everything, they bought me books that discussed all types of belief systems and helped me look things up at the library on the ones I was most interested in. It probably took me longer than my peers to be able to state that I had a belief system and say what it was, but that was by far better than my husband's case where he was raised in a faith and later discovered it wasn't for him. He always says he feels like he was brainwashed by his parents.
My husband and I also have a vast difference of opinion on religion. I have a belief system, and he's a raging atheist who thinks anyone who believes in things you can't see or prove is an idiot. Sounds like that might make this difficult between us, yes? Well, it did for some years, but once we worked out that I didn't care if he believed in anything or not and that he should allow me the same freedom (and stop chastising me for believing in something), it's all been good ... and we've both mellowed over the years on it as well. He's not nearly as anti-theistic as he used to be (perhaps because he sees I am not really a mindless religious drone) and I can see in him that even though he doesn't have a belief system, he does question himself on that regularly (and isn't shrieking every time I say the word god). We've gotten to that point by way of a few huge arguments, several really long talks, and loving each other enough to realize the one thing we don't share shouldn't take away from all the things we do share.
posted by Orb at 11:14 AM on April 12, 2007
My husband and I also have a vast difference of opinion on religion. I have a belief system, and he's a raging atheist who thinks anyone who believes in things you can't see or prove is an idiot. Sounds like that might make this difficult between us, yes? Well, it did for some years, but once we worked out that I didn't care if he believed in anything or not and that he should allow me the same freedom (and stop chastising me for believing in something), it's all been good ... and we've both mellowed over the years on it as well. He's not nearly as anti-theistic as he used to be (perhaps because he sees I am not really a mindless religious drone) and I can see in him that even though he doesn't have a belief system, he does question himself on that regularly (and isn't shrieking every time I say the word god). We've gotten to that point by way of a few huge arguments, several really long talks, and loving each other enough to realize the one thing we don't share shouldn't take away from all the things we do share.
posted by Orb at 11:14 AM on April 12, 2007
I can understand he doesn't want his life turned upside because my gods want something difficult. On the other hand, I'm still going to do this difficult thing because it's very important to me. We're trying to figure out how to come to a compromise on this, and a little stuck...
Yes, that is a hard one, but I would like to suggest it might not be much better if he were married to a buddhist or a muslim -- three year retreats and trips to mecca can be quite disruptive.
The bottom line is that you can't predict what's going to come up in diloggun readings or frankly life in general. The two of you are trying to find compromises to situations that haven't arisen yet, which is not possible, in my opinion.
You're scared something will come up that you can't find a way to work around; but that's the worse case scenario, and pretty unlikely to happen. Trust in your love. There might be some bumps along the way, but that's just marriage.
posted by milarepa at 11:25 AM on April 12, 2007
Yes, that is a hard one, but I would like to suggest it might not be much better if he were married to a buddhist or a muslim -- three year retreats and trips to mecca can be quite disruptive.
The bottom line is that you can't predict what's going to come up in diloggun readings or frankly life in general. The two of you are trying to find compromises to situations that haven't arisen yet, which is not possible, in my opinion.
You're scared something will come up that you can't find a way to work around; but that's the worse case scenario, and pretty unlikely to happen. Trust in your love. There might be some bumps along the way, but that's just marriage.
posted by milarepa at 11:25 AM on April 12, 2007
With the exception of the divination thing....
Yeah. I can say that the "divination thing" is hands-down the biggest issue for me. It's frightening, throwing in my lot with someone who makes decisions so differently and accepts such different sources of evidence. I'm worried that we'll come to a joint decision down the road where I know what I want but her gods say "no." How do I negotiate or compromise with beings I don't believe in?
....as a Buddhist, I don't see why there would be any issues/concern about what my partner believes.
Actually, what I just said to Menomena is a good example of why it matters to me. The mere difference in belief isn't such a problem, but practical issues that stem from it might be.
Ironically, my marriage is the same mix.
I love the Internet. The next time we're in New York we're buying you guys a drink.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:30 AM on April 12, 2007
Yeah. I can say that the "divination thing" is hands-down the biggest issue for me. It's frightening, throwing in my lot with someone who makes decisions so differently and accepts such different sources of evidence. I'm worried that we'll come to a joint decision down the road where I know what I want but her gods say "no." How do I negotiate or compromise with beings I don't believe in?
....as a Buddhist, I don't see why there would be any issues/concern about what my partner believes.
Actually, what I just said to Menomena is a good example of why it matters to me. The mere difference in belief isn't such a problem, but practical issues that stem from it might be.
Ironically, my marriage is the same mix.
I love the Internet. The next time we're in New York we're buying you guys a drink.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:30 AM on April 12, 2007
Have the divination readings caused a conflict in the past or are you simply scared of what might arise?
Also, despite your athesim have you ever gotten a reading, one to just be sort of scientific about the whole thing?
posted by milarepa at 11:49 AM on April 12, 2007
Also, despite your athesim have you ever gotten a reading, one to just be sort of scientific about the whole thing?
posted by milarepa at 11:49 AM on April 12, 2007
Also, my email is in my profile, if you'd like to discuss this off the site.
posted by milarepa at 11:52 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by milarepa at 11:52 AM on April 12, 2007
I think that we are scared of not being able to work around something. At least, it's a big fear of mine. I am happy to hear that someone else is in the same situation and have made it work.
posted by Attackpanda at 11:55 AM on April 12, 2007
posted by Attackpanda at 11:55 AM on April 12, 2007
Attackpanda: I don't know what stage you're at with the religion, but if you're not able make basic divinations yourself, being able to do so might put you and your significant other more at ease.
When you're dependent on other people for these readings, it's involving a third (or fourth, etc) person in your marriage, and he might be (rightfully) wary of that arrangement.
So, if you're not able to perform all the basic divinations yet, I suggest you get there as soon as it's economically and spiritually possible.
Also, it's probably frowned upon for you to read it if you're still an apprentice, but this book might help your significant other. You also might not think that this book should be published openly, but c'est la vie. It's actually quite good though.
posted by milarepa at 12:12 PM on April 12, 2007
When you're dependent on other people for these readings, it's involving a third (or fourth, etc) person in your marriage, and he might be (rightfully) wary of that arrangement.
So, if you're not able to perform all the basic divinations yet, I suggest you get there as soon as it's economically and spiritually possible.
Also, it's probably frowned upon for you to read it if you're still an apprentice, but this book might help your significant other. You also might not think that this book should be published openly, but c'est la vie. It's actually quite good though.
posted by milarepa at 12:12 PM on April 12, 2007
Milarepa: I can make basic divinations on my own, but that's all. I am still an apprentice, so there's a giant world of things for me to learn, and being far from my spiritual family doesn't help. It's also a concern when I get more involved in my religion, what other taboos or duties will come up that neither of us had previous knowledge of. Nothing has risen yet to cause us problems, but it's what we worry about. Nebulawindphone has had a reading done and even he says it was pretty acurrate.
I'll be contact you soon though, thank you for that oppurtunity.
posted by Attackpanda at 12:41 PM on April 12, 2007
I'll be contact you soon though, thank you for that oppurtunity.
posted by Attackpanda at 12:41 PM on April 12, 2007
I'm still confused as to what exactly you (nebula) are afraid of. Suppose her gods tell you to do something you consider immoral. Would she insist you do it over your own objections? Suppose they tell you to move to Arizona, and you really don't want to. You might do it anyway to save the marriage, but if you both hold on to your feelings strongly enough, this could end in separation.
Then again, even if your fiancee were atheist, she could want to move to Arizona, or hate your job, or encourage you to embezzle money, irrespective of any divine influence, and you could break up over that. There's really no way to predict.... unless you trust your partner not to violate your integrity, and yourself not to stray from your path, whatever that is.
posted by desjardins at 1:18 PM on April 12, 2007
Then again, even if your fiancee were atheist, she could want to move to Arizona, or hate your job, or encourage you to embezzle money, irrespective of any divine influence, and you could break up over that. There's really no way to predict.... unless you trust your partner not to violate your integrity, and yourself not to stray from your path, whatever that is.
posted by desjardins at 1:18 PM on April 12, 2007
one other random thought - I could be way off base, but I wouldn't imagine there are lots of Afro-Cubans in Pittsburgh. Other kids are going to think your kid is really weird if he discusses his mom's religion. I think preparing a response to that would be a sound idea.
posted by desjardins at 1:20 PM on April 12, 2007
posted by desjardins at 1:20 PM on April 12, 2007
If the divination thing is the really big issue here, I gotta tell you that when I read this:
She uses divination to help with hard decisions; I insist on following my gut.
...the first thing I thought was "That's not a difference at all. Those are the same thing."
Divination is often about the interpretation of things - cards, numbers, bones, tea. If you don't believe the results are divinely inspired, what do you think steers them?
The person doing the divination. It's gut feeling, just not played out in your guts.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:23 PM on April 12, 2007
She uses divination to help with hard decisions; I insist on following my gut.
...the first thing I thought was "That's not a difference at all. Those are the same thing."
Divination is often about the interpretation of things - cards, numbers, bones, tea. If you don't believe the results are divinely inspired, what do you think steers them?
The person doing the divination. It's gut feeling, just not played out in your guts.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:23 PM on April 12, 2007
Desjardins: You are right, there aren't too many afro-cubans in pittsburgh. But from what I have found, not to many people know about this religion until it's staring you in the face. It's not well heard of like Islam, or Christianity. I do plan on coming up with something to tell the kids, to not say, "my mommy was so possed last night, it was awesome." But I haven't figured that out yet. And kids are well into the future too. *knocks on wood*
posted by Attackpanda at 4:50 PM on April 12, 2007
posted by Attackpanda at 4:50 PM on April 12, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
Have you had success in negotiating and compromising about each other's beliefs as they affect some practical aspect of life? (silly example: she thinks sweet potatoes are lovely, you have a taboo against them - do you find a compromise, or just fume about it and call each other silly to your friends?) Talk more about those land-mines - the more specific you are, the more specific we can be.
there are still questions about what we will teach them.
Well, that's easily addressed - start talking and asking her questions. To what degree is syncretism possible or desireable? What could you both agree on, for a basis to work from? This is where there's still a lot of interfaith literature that may be helpful from the "Daddy believes this and Mommy believes this other thing" perspective - the communicative challenges are the same.
posted by canine epigram at 9:55 AM on April 12, 2007