Auggghhhhhh please help me stop the voices
April 10, 2007 4:08 AM Subscribe
Neighbor blasting talk radio and not responding to my first attempts at contact. What's my next step? Please help me carefully plan the best approach for long-term results.
My upstairs neighbor in the apt. building I just moved into blasts talk radio for most of each day/afternoon. They also play it in the wee hours, but quieter (loud enough for me to easily hear voices and inflections but not hear the exact words).
This morning they woke me up at 4:30am with the start of their radio day and it was as loud as it usually is for afternoon. So after some consideration I went up at 5am and did the polite cycle of ring doorbell, wait, knock, wait, knock louder, wait... Never got an answer, after enough knock cycles that there's no chance they couldn't hear me (they have the same apt. shape as me, a one-room studio).
What should my next steps be? When should I next try knocking?
(Radio is still going now, 7am my time, and I can't get back to sleep.)
Info for planning:
1) My lease says nothing about noise levels, "quiet enjoyment," or any similar things suggested in other threads;
2) My local law says nothing about tenant-vs-tenant noise disputes and noise is not a police matter where I live (NYC);
3) My management co. is crazily understaffed and would consider this a lowest priority since they can barely get to the repair/etc. requests;
4) I'm new to this building; my neighbors are mostly great, quiet people and it's just this upstairs one who's a consistent problem -- I don't know yet whether it's an older person who's hard of hearing and/or afraid of strangers at the door, or a young asshole who will never respond. The fact that it's quieter at night suggests someone who's had this pattern for a while and thinks it's totally fine, which may be the toughest situation to change.
My upstairs neighbor in the apt. building I just moved into blasts talk radio for most of each day/afternoon. They also play it in the wee hours, but quieter (loud enough for me to easily hear voices and inflections but not hear the exact words).
This morning they woke me up at 4:30am with the start of their radio day and it was as loud as it usually is for afternoon. So after some consideration I went up at 5am and did the polite cycle of ring doorbell, wait, knock, wait, knock louder, wait... Never got an answer, after enough knock cycles that there's no chance they couldn't hear me (they have the same apt. shape as me, a one-room studio).
What should my next steps be? When should I next try knocking?
(Radio is still going now, 7am my time, and I can't get back to sleep.)
Info for planning:
1) My lease says nothing about noise levels, "quiet enjoyment," or any similar things suggested in other threads;
2) My local law says nothing about tenant-vs-tenant noise disputes and noise is not a police matter where I live (NYC);
3) My management co. is crazily understaffed and would consider this a lowest priority since they can barely get to the repair/etc. requests;
4) I'm new to this building; my neighbors are mostly great, quiet people and it's just this upstairs one who's a consistent problem -- I don't know yet whether it's an older person who's hard of hearing and/or afraid of strangers at the door, or a young asshole who will never respond. The fact that it's quieter at night suggests someone who's had this pattern for a while and thinks it's totally fine, which may be the toughest situation to change.
Maybe they're out of town, and the 4:30 was an alarm, set to get them to the airport in time, and left on unintentionally?
Granted, this doesn't solve your problem, but might explain the lack of response.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 4:34 AM on April 10, 2007 [3 favorites]
Granted, this doesn't solve your problem, but might explain the lack of response.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 4:34 AM on April 10, 2007 [3 favorites]
Continue with the neighbor.
Start with the landlord.
If these fail call the police, but let your neighbor know that that is the next option prior to actually calling them.
If that fails, sue the neighbor and the landlord.
If all that fails, find out what station they like. Get an AM transmitter and transmit Nine Inch Nails on repeat over that station. Jam it, jam it good. (You must know that jamming is highly illegal though.)
Whether your lease has it or not, you are due quiet enjoyment. That is the law. The only way you would not be is if your lease specifically excepted it. Noise is a police matter in NYC, just not as important of one as elsewhere.
posted by caddis at 4:34 AM on April 10, 2007
Start with the landlord.
If these fail call the police, but let your neighbor know that that is the next option prior to actually calling them.
If that fails, sue the neighbor and the landlord.
If all that fails, find out what station they like. Get an AM transmitter and transmit Nine Inch Nails on repeat over that station. Jam it, jam it good. (You must know that jamming is highly illegal though.)
Whether your lease has it or not, you are due quiet enjoyment. That is the law. The only way you would not be is if your lease specifically excepted it. Noise is a police matter in NYC, just not as important of one as elsewhere.
posted by caddis at 4:34 AM on April 10, 2007
Response by poster: I'm looking for longterm human-communication solutions...
Does anybody have thoughts about when I should next try knocking on the door and what would be good to say if I do get a face-to-face audience? Thanks!
Really, cops do not handle subjective person-to-person noise complaints in my neighborhood, and my neighbors know it. (I'm sure they do on the Upper East Side, etc., but this is not a high-rent area.) The one time I called the non-emergency number for a noise complaint in this neighborhood, it was literally a laughing matter (as in, the guy laughed at me and asked me whether I'd just moved to New York [in fact I'd lived here 6 years at that point... and I was calling him re. a drummer practicing for 2 hrs every day on a full drum set]).
posted by sparrows at 4:59 AM on April 10, 2007
Does anybody have thoughts about when I should next try knocking on the door and what would be good to say if I do get a face-to-face audience? Thanks!
Really, cops do not handle subjective person-to-person noise complaints in my neighborhood, and my neighbors know it. (I'm sure they do on the Upper East Side, etc., but this is not a high-rent area.) The one time I called the non-emergency number for a noise complaint in this neighborhood, it was literally a laughing matter (as in, the guy laughed at me and asked me whether I'd just moved to New York [in fact I'd lived here 6 years at that point... and I was calling him re. a drummer practicing for 2 hrs every day on a full drum set]).
posted by sparrows at 4:59 AM on April 10, 2007
Thing is, during the day noise issues aren't a police matter. At least not over here in the UK. I think it's between 10pm and 8am that they will take it seriously.
Someone practicing drums may suck for you, but during the day it's their right to be able to. Yea, might be polite for them to try some sound insulation, but legally and such...
I'd say keep trying the knocking, and if you can't get any response, and it happens in the middle of the night, then try the police. First though, contact the landlord, they migth know if the person's away or something, and can probably get in contact with the person by phone or by letting themselves in if there's no reply.
If you're in a position to (and they keep being jerks about noise), without annoying people downstairs from you, you could try some revenge noise - get a drum kit or something!
posted by opsin at 5:08 AM on April 10, 2007
Someone practicing drums may suck for you, but during the day it's their right to be able to. Yea, might be polite for them to try some sound insulation, but legally and such...
I'd say keep trying the knocking, and if you can't get any response, and it happens in the middle of the night, then try the police. First though, contact the landlord, they migth know if the person's away or something, and can probably get in contact with the person by phone or by letting themselves in if there's no reply.
If you're in a position to (and they keep being jerks about noise), without annoying people downstairs from you, you could try some revenge noise - get a drum kit or something!
posted by opsin at 5:08 AM on April 10, 2007
Knocking on the door again isn't going to work. The person was there before and refused to answer. If you want to solve this using human communication, your only hope is for a passive aggressive who will only refuse to talk to you when you can't see them. In that case, quietly surveil the residence so you'll recognize the perp, then confront.
posted by DU at 5:12 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by DU at 5:12 AM on April 10, 2007
caddis, the implied covenant of "quiet enjoyment" just means that the landlord has clear title to the apartment, not that the renter has a right to quiet.
Make sure to keep a rock-solid paper trail (certified letters) of your complaints to the landlord, both for the intrinsic value and because it will make you look like the responsible one should you end up in housing court. I've had complaints that were ignored over the phone be remedied immediately after sending a certified letter.
As for dealing with the other tenant directly...I wouldn't do it beyond what you've already done. You've been polite about the matter, but pushing it any further is much more likely to make things worse (the twit calls the police on you for harrassment -- "banging on my door at all hours") than to lead to a resolution.
posted by backupjesus at 5:16 AM on April 10, 2007
Make sure to keep a rock-solid paper trail (certified letters) of your complaints to the landlord, both for the intrinsic value and because it will make you look like the responsible one should you end up in housing court. I've had complaints that were ignored over the phone be remedied immediately after sending a certified letter.
As for dealing with the other tenant directly...I wouldn't do it beyond what you've already done. You've been polite about the matter, but pushing it any further is much more likely to make things worse (the twit calls the police on you for harrassment -- "banging on my door at all hours") than to lead to a resolution.
posted by backupjesus at 5:16 AM on April 10, 2007
Response by poster: 1) Suggestions for "Revenge" are officially declared off-topic for this thread :)
2) I think their choice not to answer isn't definitive yet, since I tried at 5am -- unexpected knocking by a total stranger when it's dark outside could well be something they don't want to respond to (especially if it's not obvious to them that it would be about the noise). I think the paper trail is a great suggestion.
3) There isn't a human "landlord" here; there's only a management company that manages many buildings and is located in a different borough... typical for cheap midsized NYC buildings.
posted by sparrows at 5:37 AM on April 10, 2007
2) I think their choice not to answer isn't definitive yet, since I tried at 5am -- unexpected knocking by a total stranger when it's dark outside could well be something they don't want to respond to (especially if it's not obvious to them that it would be about the noise). I think the paper trail is a great suggestion.
3) There isn't a human "landlord" here; there's only a management company that manages many buildings and is located in a different borough... typical for cheap midsized NYC buildings.
posted by sparrows at 5:37 AM on April 10, 2007
Step 1 should be getting more information about the neighbor. You could talk to the management company or to other nearby neighbors to see what they know about the radio listener. From that, you should be able to form a strategy.
You might also be able to come up with some very basic ideas about their politics, at least, from the type of radio they listen to (assuming they listen only to people with whom they agree -- I don't, but most people seem to).
posted by amtho at 5:37 AM on April 10, 2007
You might also be able to come up with some very basic ideas about their politics, at least, from the type of radio they listen to (assuming they listen only to people with whom they agree -- I don't, but most people seem to).
posted by amtho at 5:37 AM on April 10, 2007
You could try hosting a "meet the neighbors" party and inviting all the people who live adjacent -- above, below, each side. At least meeting the person should lead to better communication.
You did say long-term...
posted by amtho at 5:40 AM on April 10, 2007
You did say long-term...
posted by amtho at 5:40 AM on April 10, 2007
Certainly the best bet is to get a chance to talk to them, and be really nice about it, but make it clear that it's a problem and would be really nice of them to be more considerate. At the point where it's waking you up, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't do something to stop this... But maybe it's just my irrational fear of waking people up, even when they ask me to!
posted by opsin at 5:47 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by opsin at 5:47 AM on April 10, 2007
A neighbor of mine once solved this by inviting the noisy ones over to her apartment so they could see how their stereo to her.
posted by 4ster at 5:50 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by 4ster at 5:50 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
At least for me, "landlord" is a general term for whoever holds the lease, be they man, woman, partnership, or faceless corporation. My experience has been that letters actually work better with big management companies, since they usually have a solid policy of how to respond to complaints. My worst experiences have been with individuals, since they can make the executive decision that it's not worth their time/money to fix the situation.
(...plus they may think that not accepting delivery of certified letters protects them. The government authorities did not look kindly upon that, let me tell you...)
On reconsideration, I think there's something to be said for trying again. There are lots of reasons (heavy sleeper? hard of hearing and in the shower?) that they may not have heard your 5AM knocking. But I'd limit it to daytime hours and just knock once -- there may have been a very freaked-out elderly person on the other side of the door when you tried. You might also try a super-friendly note slid under the door.
posted by backupjesus at 5:58 AM on April 10, 2007 [2 favorites]
(...plus they may think that not accepting delivery of certified letters protects them. The government authorities did not look kindly upon that, let me tell you...)
On reconsideration, I think there's something to be said for trying again. There are lots of reasons (heavy sleeper? hard of hearing and in the shower?) that they may not have heard your 5AM knocking. But I'd limit it to daytime hours and just knock once -- there may have been a very freaked-out elderly person on the other side of the door when you tried. You might also try a super-friendly note slid under the door.
posted by backupjesus at 5:58 AM on April 10, 2007 [2 favorites]
Maybe the guy was in the shower while you were knocking. Go up again when you know he's home and the radio isn't blaring and tell him the problem. Or, put a note under his door saying that the radio is a problem and could he turn it down. At least then you know he's gotten the message.
If that doesn't work, complain to the landlord repeatedly until you get a result. You shouldn't have to put up with this.
posted by gfrobe at 5:59 AM on April 10, 2007
If that doesn't work, complain to the landlord repeatedly until you get a result. You shouldn't have to put up with this.
posted by gfrobe at 5:59 AM on April 10, 2007
backupjesus,
I am an attorney, and licensed in NY, but I cannot say with confidence what the implied right to quiet enjoyment means to this situation without researching it. My guess, however: if the landlord fails to act it might be a colorable interference with that right, and the tenant might be limited in the ability to rely on that right (e.g., might have to show intentional behavior, might have to move first, or something).
I'll speculate with somewhat greater confidence, however, that the legal view you indicate is incorrect. That understanding of "quiet enjoyment" pertains to references in a deed (when, naturally, the relationship between the parties is quite different), not the concept as applied to a lease. I think that is reflected in the very source you cite. And that source, anyway, is Answers.com, which has the same relationship to the law as a barber has to the practice of medicine.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 6:07 AM on April 10, 2007
I am an attorney, and licensed in NY, but I cannot say with confidence what the implied right to quiet enjoyment means to this situation without researching it. My guess, however: if the landlord fails to act it might be a colorable interference with that right, and the tenant might be limited in the ability to rely on that right (e.g., might have to show intentional behavior, might have to move first, or something).
I'll speculate with somewhat greater confidence, however, that the legal view you indicate is incorrect. That understanding of "quiet enjoyment" pertains to references in a deed (when, naturally, the relationship between the parties is quite different), not the concept as applied to a lease. I think that is reflected in the very source you cite. And that source, anyway, is Answers.com, which has the same relationship to the law as a barber has to the practice of medicine.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 6:07 AM on April 10, 2007
It's possible that, as others have said, this was an alarm clock that went off when no one was home. Or, upstairs neighbor is a really, really heavy sleeper.
I have some experience with loud upstairs neighbors. I found that as much as I sat there fuming at their inconsiderate-ness (and their behavior eventually drove us to move), for the most part they just didn't get it. They didn't realize that when they played fetch with their large dog inside their apartment on hardwood floors, it sounded like our ceiling was about to fall in. The didn't get that mopping the floors at 4 am might seem like a good idea when you work at a bar and have nocturnal hours, but your downstairs neighbors don't appreciate the sound of a banging mop and bucket over their bed when they are trying to sleep. They didn't realize that playing an electric guitar, even quietly, in the middle of the night was just plain rude.
We confronted said neighbors when things were especially bad - if it was the middle of the night, for example. There were times (like the electric guitar incident) when no one came to the door no matter how hard I knocked, so I left a note. (The next day he bought us a bottle of wine to apologize, which is what made me realize it was not intentional.) Some people just don't get it. Personally, I don't know how you couldn't be aware of the noises you make, but some people live in their own little world and just don't realize it.
Our neighbor in our new building is mostly quiet, but does play the piano for a couple hours every day. It's loud, and it's the same few songs over and over and over every day, interspersed with a lot of scales and arpeggios, so it's not exactly pleasant. (He's not the best pianist.) But as long as he keeps it during the daytime hours, we are going to simply accept it as part of the price of city living and sharing buildings with other people.
So, long story short - knock, if he doesn't answer, leave a note. If it continues, start sending certified letters to the neighbor and cc: the management company. During the day he has every right to listen to the radio within reasonable limits of loudness, and you may just have to suck it up. But 4:30 in the morning is definitely not ok.
posted by misskaz at 6:11 AM on April 10, 2007 [2 favorites]
I have some experience with loud upstairs neighbors. I found that as much as I sat there fuming at their inconsiderate-ness (and their behavior eventually drove us to move), for the most part they just didn't get it. They didn't realize that when they played fetch with their large dog inside their apartment on hardwood floors, it sounded like our ceiling was about to fall in. The didn't get that mopping the floors at 4 am might seem like a good idea when you work at a bar and have nocturnal hours, but your downstairs neighbors don't appreciate the sound of a banging mop and bucket over their bed when they are trying to sleep. They didn't realize that playing an electric guitar, even quietly, in the middle of the night was just plain rude.
We confronted said neighbors when things were especially bad - if it was the middle of the night, for example. There were times (like the electric guitar incident) when no one came to the door no matter how hard I knocked, so I left a note. (The next day he bought us a bottle of wine to apologize, which is what made me realize it was not intentional.) Some people just don't get it. Personally, I don't know how you couldn't be aware of the noises you make, but some people live in their own little world and just don't realize it.
Our neighbor in our new building is mostly quiet, but does play the piano for a couple hours every day. It's loud, and it's the same few songs over and over and over every day, interspersed with a lot of scales and arpeggios, so it's not exactly pleasant. (He's not the best pianist.) But as long as he keeps it during the daytime hours, we are going to simply accept it as part of the price of city living and sharing buildings with other people.
So, long story short - knock, if he doesn't answer, leave a note. If it continues, start sending certified letters to the neighbor and cc: the management company. During the day he has every right to listen to the radio within reasonable limits of loudness, and you may just have to suck it up. But 4:30 in the morning is definitely not ok.
posted by misskaz at 6:11 AM on April 10, 2007 [2 favorites]
Maybe the person really is hard of hearing and did not hear you knock. I had a neighbor like that upstairs from me in the early 90s. I remember hearing her TV playing CNN Gulf War coverage at high volume coming through the ceiling. That was an unusual case, one of the rare times she had loud TV or radio in the night, so I didn't mind.
Anyhow, I think the next step is to try knocking again in late afternoon or early evening. If that doesn't work, leave a polite note.
posted by Robert Angelo at 6:13 AM on April 10, 2007
Anyhow, I think the next step is to try knocking again in late afternoon or early evening. If that doesn't work, leave a polite note.
posted by Robert Angelo at 6:13 AM on April 10, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks for all these responses -- this is helping me feel better in my sleep deprived & very stressed state (I'm feeling not-good about this place in several ways, but that is Beyond the Scope of This Thread...).
Great point about the standards of a management company vs. the judgment calls of an individual. With my management co. maybe it's more that I want to pick my battles. (When I moved in I needed a lot of little repairs, like for a slowly leaking toilet and non-opening window; while those were not nuisance repairs, I still don't want to be the person who always has a complaint or a special need.)
I'm concerned this neighbor's response will be that this is the way s/he has always played the radio and nobody ever complained before. I would believe that; this building has some intense noisemakers and some degree of a "culture of noise" (I'm lucky to not live near any of the worst noisemakers, but I hear them as I walk through the building).
posted by sparrows at 6:37 AM on April 10, 2007
Great point about the standards of a management company vs. the judgment calls of an individual. With my management co. maybe it's more that I want to pick my battles. (When I moved in I needed a lot of little repairs, like for a slowly leaking toilet and non-opening window; while those were not nuisance repairs, I still don't want to be the person who always has a complaint or a special need.)
I'm concerned this neighbor's response will be that this is the way s/he has always played the radio and nobody ever complained before. I would believe that; this building has some intense noisemakers and some degree of a "culture of noise" (I'm lucky to not live near any of the worst noisemakers, but I hear them as I walk through the building).
posted by sparrows at 6:37 AM on April 10, 2007
I would wait for this to occur, over and over, and all of your recourses to be exhausted, but, honestly, what do you have against "revenge?" It was the foundation of justice, after all, and something to which we may still turn when the system leaves us at the mercy of idiots. It's highly functional and says, "If you won't stop making my life miserable, I will make your life miserable." It can certainly go awry, but so can complaints to the management. Noisy neighbors are frequently convinced to cool it by having to deal with noise they didn't initiate.
posted by adipocere at 6:45 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by adipocere at 6:45 AM on April 10, 2007
Clyde, IANAL, I'm not offering a legal opinion, I'm just pointing out that "quiet enjoyment" is not a statement about the sonic qualities of a property but rather a legal term of art that may or may not have a bearing on noise complaints.
I used answers.com because it was easy to find and agreed with my understanding. Is the ABA legit enough for you?
posted by backupjesus at 6:46 AM on April 10, 2007
I used answers.com because it was easy to find and agreed with my understanding. Is the ABA legit enough for you?
posted by backupjesus at 6:46 AM on April 10, 2007
A couple of non-legaloid responses.
1. Contra some advice above, I would be careful about asking around about the neighbor. If it gets back to them (and I gather they have longer standing thereabouts than you do, and perhaps greater loyalties), they'll be pissed.
2. When you talk to them, consider saying something like: "Hey, there's no reason you'd know this, but I can hear your radio really really well in my apartment. Sometimes that's just the way it goes -- we're in an apartment, and there are times you're going to be hearing my stereo cranked all the way to 11. But how about keeping the volume way down before __, and after __. Otherwise, you just keep doing your thing, and I'll lump it."
3. Bear in mind that sometimes people crank the ambient noise to cover up other noises, so adverting to thin walls may backfire.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 6:51 AM on April 10, 2007
1. Contra some advice above, I would be careful about asking around about the neighbor. If it gets back to them (and I gather they have longer standing thereabouts than you do, and perhaps greater loyalties), they'll be pissed.
2. When you talk to them, consider saying something like: "Hey, there's no reason you'd know this, but I can hear your radio really really well in my apartment. Sometimes that's just the way it goes -- we're in an apartment, and there are times you're going to be hearing my stereo cranked all the way to 11. But how about keeping the volume way down before __, and after __. Otherwise, you just keep doing your thing, and I'll lump it."
3. Bear in mind that sometimes people crank the ambient noise to cover up other noises, so adverting to thin walls may backfire.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 6:51 AM on April 10, 2007
As a practical matter, till you get this resolved, you might want to get a "white noise" machine.
If I was forced to live in NY, that would probably be my first purchase anyhow.
posted by konolia at 6:52 AM on April 10, 2007
If I was forced to live in NY, that would probably be my first purchase anyhow.
posted by konolia at 6:52 AM on April 10, 2007
I'm concerned this neighbor's response will be that this is the way s/he has always played the radio and nobody ever complained before.
Answer:
"That was then. This is now. I find the volume excessive. It interferes with my quiet enjoyment of the premises."
I've had this problem too. It's best not to waste too much time on the neighbor. Talk to him once or twice. If he doesn't get the message, hands you a bullshit line, or plays stupid, send a certified letter to the landlord outlining your complaints.
Again -- do not make the mistake I made. Don't waste too much time trying to reason with the unreasonable.
posted by jason's_planet at 6:53 AM on April 10, 2007
Answer:
"That was then. This is now. I find the volume excessive. It interferes with my quiet enjoyment of the premises."
I've had this problem too. It's best not to waste too much time on the neighbor. Talk to him once or twice. If he doesn't get the message, hands you a bullshit line, or plays stupid, send a certified letter to the landlord outlining your complaints.
Again -- do not make the mistake I made. Don't waste too much time trying to reason with the unreasonable.
posted by jason's_planet at 6:53 AM on April 10, 2007
I have twice had people making a lot of noise fail to answer their door after repeated knocking and ringing. In the first case it turned out to be because the guy was completely passed out drunk. In the second case (different guy) I'm pretty sure it's because he was in the shower. This is also the reason the music was so loud - because he wanted to hear it when he was in there.
I would recommend taking the politest possible approach to start with, It is unlikely you are dealing with someone completely unreasonable but you have to be careful not to put them on the defensive. Once someone feels that they are being accused of some bad behavior it's really hard to get anywhere with them, so you need to make it more about your need for things to be quieter rather than their being too noisy according to some absolute standard.
posted by teleskiving at 7:08 AM on April 10, 2007
I would recommend taking the politest possible approach to start with, It is unlikely you are dealing with someone completely unreasonable but you have to be careful not to put them on the defensive. Once someone feels that they are being accused of some bad behavior it's really hard to get anywhere with them, so you need to make it more about your need for things to be quieter rather than their being too noisy according to some absolute standard.
posted by teleskiving at 7:08 AM on April 10, 2007
backupjesus,
Peace. I freely concede nonexpertise on this, and agree that quiet enjoyment is "a legal term of art that may or may not have a bearing on noise complaints." "Quiet" doesn't refer to quiet per se, but things that interfere with the right to occupy. I had recalled that some service cutoffs and the like did indeed interfere with that right, but I can't think of any reason why noise objections couldn't be made under a habitability complaint. Maybe service and surroundings complaints are articulated under quiet enjoyment labels in commercial contexts where habitability isn't as clear an issue. Dunno.
Answers.com didn't support the proposition, since the part you noted focused on use in a deed. The ABA site does support your argument that "quiet enjoyment" isn't the right terminology. (I am almost certain it is incorrect, however, in implying that the right to be free from annoyance turns on whether there's a "don't annoy your neighbors" clause.) Your point is further supported by this New York Times article, which also has some useful advice to the OP.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 7:19 AM on April 10, 2007
Peace. I freely concede nonexpertise on this, and agree that quiet enjoyment is "a legal term of art that may or may not have a bearing on noise complaints." "Quiet" doesn't refer to quiet per se, but things that interfere with the right to occupy. I had recalled that some service cutoffs and the like did indeed interfere with that right, but I can't think of any reason why noise objections couldn't be made under a habitability complaint. Maybe service and surroundings complaints are articulated under quiet enjoyment labels in commercial contexts where habitability isn't as clear an issue. Dunno.
Answers.com didn't support the proposition, since the part you noted focused on use in a deed. The ABA site does support your argument that "quiet enjoyment" isn't the right terminology. (I am almost certain it is incorrect, however, in implying that the right to be free from annoyance turns on whether there's a "don't annoy your neighbors" clause.) Your point is further supported by this New York Times article, which also has some useful advice to the OP.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 7:19 AM on April 10, 2007
Response by poster: bitter smile... boy, jason's_planet, you hit the nail on the head even more than you know. The true heart of this problem is that the position "that was then, this is now" is very touchy in a quickly-gentrifying neighborhood like mine. And that's exactly what I would be saying as a new resident making any noise complaints, especially if this neighbor is a longterm resident who's always done things this way.
I tried to keep my question factual and simple (and I'm running on many nights of sleep deficit so I decided I couldn't be articulate enough about this) but since I have already been identified & harrassed as an interloper/invader, the truth is that nothing is simple here. Most nights I can barely get into my apt. without feeling (being actively made to feel) I'm being watched and I'm not welcome.
And, adipocere: I'm against revenge in principle. I shouldn't have to say more than that, but in this case the obvious practical reason to be against it is that any sonic revenge (including frequency jamming) would affect my innocent neighbors; and the perhaps less obvous but even more urgent reason is that revenge escalates fast, and there is a small but, uh, quite vocal faction who already have made it clear they know where I live.
So, the real issues are not exactly something a management company could or would address with certfied letters.
Have I steered my own thread sufficiently off topic? :)
posted by sparrows at 7:44 AM on April 10, 2007
I tried to keep my question factual and simple (and I'm running on many nights of sleep deficit so I decided I couldn't be articulate enough about this) but since I have already been identified & harrassed as an interloper/invader, the truth is that nothing is simple here. Most nights I can barely get into my apt. without feeling (being actively made to feel) I'm being watched and I'm not welcome.
And, adipocere: I'm against revenge in principle. I shouldn't have to say more than that, but in this case the obvious practical reason to be against it is that any sonic revenge (including frequency jamming) would affect my innocent neighbors; and the perhaps less obvous but even more urgent reason is that revenge escalates fast, and there is a small but, uh, quite vocal faction who already have made it clear they know where I live.
So, the real issues are not exactly something a management company could or would address with certfied letters.
Have I steered my own thread sufficiently off topic? :)
posted by sparrows at 7:44 AM on April 10, 2007
This is not wholly relevant but I simply had to share because it just happened. I've been going crazy for months with my upstairs neighbor marching around in the morning waking me up every day with what sounds like goose-stepping practice. I've debated how to word a note (I too have ancillary problems that make it less than easy to leave the guy a note.) Anyway, I just ran into my building's new property manager. She's here to answer a noise complaint. From the guy above me. Who says the guy above HIM is walking too loudly! Delicious.
I don't really have a point, but if I did it would be to side with those who say you should consider first that the guy doesn't know how loud he's being.
posted by poxuppit at 8:18 AM on April 10, 2007
I don't really have a point, but if I did it would be to side with those who say you should consider first that the guy doesn't know how loud he's being.
posted by poxuppit at 8:18 AM on April 10, 2007
It's possible that an inexpensive gift would solve this problem.
posted by harmfulray at 8:21 AM on April 10, 2007
posted by harmfulray at 8:21 AM on April 10, 2007
The true heart of this problem is that the position "that was then, this is now" is very touchy in a quickly-gentrifying neighborhood like mine.
Well, if they think you're a gentrifier, every attempt to assert yourself, to stand up for yourself, will be received poorly. Behavior that you and I would consider simple assertiveness will inspire ugly muttering to the effect that "They" are "taking over."
I admit that my phrasing is a little in-your-face. Maybe something a little softer like "Well, that was their business. Anyway, they don't live in that apartment anymore. I do and I find the volume excessive etc. etc." might work a little better. I don't know.
but since I have already been identified & harrassed as an interloper/invader, the truth is that nothing is simple here. Most nights I can barely get into my apt. without feeling (being actively made to feel) I'm being watched and I'm not welcome.
Me too. I get the stares, the sidewalk chicken, the ugly looks, even after five years in my neighborhood. If you decide to stay, I would recommend two things:
--Write off a large portion of your neighbors. Not ALL of them. Many of them will be open to you, welcome your business, be willing to deal with you as a fellow human being. And many of them will not. They will never respect you or consider you a friend. So write them out of your life. Ignore them. Make them non-people. If you get rude service at a local establishment and you think your ethnicity/status has something to do with it, don't give them your business anymore.
--Be less open. Cop a little bit of an attitude. Put a wall between yourself and your neighborhood. Put the iPod on full volume. Don't show any nervousness. Don't feel guilt about being a gentrifier. You're paying the rent. You're obeying the law. You have a perfect right to be where you are. Don't let the scumbags get under your skin.
posted by jason's_planet at 8:27 AM on April 10, 2007
Well, if they think you're a gentrifier, every attempt to assert yourself, to stand up for yourself, will be received poorly. Behavior that you and I would consider simple assertiveness will inspire ugly muttering to the effect that "They" are "taking over."
I admit that my phrasing is a little in-your-face. Maybe something a little softer like "Well, that was their business. Anyway, they don't live in that apartment anymore. I do and I find the volume excessive etc. etc." might work a little better. I don't know.
but since I have already been identified & harrassed as an interloper/invader, the truth is that nothing is simple here. Most nights I can barely get into my apt. without feeling (being actively made to feel) I'm being watched and I'm not welcome.
Me too. I get the stares, the sidewalk chicken, the ugly looks, even after five years in my neighborhood. If you decide to stay, I would recommend two things:
--Write off a large portion of your neighbors. Not ALL of them. Many of them will be open to you, welcome your business, be willing to deal with you as a fellow human being. And many of them will not. They will never respect you or consider you a friend. So write them out of your life. Ignore them. Make them non-people. If you get rude service at a local establishment and you think your ethnicity/status has something to do with it, don't give them your business anymore.
--Be less open. Cop a little bit of an attitude. Put a wall between yourself and your neighborhood. Put the iPod on full volume. Don't show any nervousness. Don't feel guilt about being a gentrifier. You're paying the rent. You're obeying the law. You have a perfect right to be where you are. Don't let the scumbags get under your skin.
posted by jason's_planet at 8:27 AM on April 10, 2007
We had a similar problem in NYC, which may have no relevance to your situation, but here it is anyway.
The family above us had their kitchen above our bedroom, and were up at 6:30 AM each morning, while we usually sleep till 7:30. One of the children was allowed to jump up and down, or kick the table, or make some thumping noise repeatedly while they were eating breakfast. The same child ran back and forth throughout the apartment all day. (Routine day-to-day noises from other apartments are always audible in our building; we were complaining about extra-loud or repeated-at-length noises.)
We approached them nicely, and told them about the problems and they were completely unsympathetic, to the point of insanity. They never denied they were making the noise, just denied our right to be bothered by it. The woman was a screamer-as soon as we complained she started yelling.
Sometimes she was just insane. One time we heard a thumping in the hallway, and went to see what was happening. The mother was standing on the landing facing her three-year-old, who was 10 or 11 stairs above her, and she was encouraging him to come down by jumping onto each step. We asked her if she could stop it, and her response was, "What's your problem? He's only 3!"
...
So, we started writing letters, and copied our landlord and lawyer on each one. First we documented every problem we'd had with them, recounted exactly what we had asked them to do, and what they had responded. We pointed out what we did in our own apartment to minimize noise for our neighbors. Then we sent one explaining that we had tried everything we could to resolve this, and did they have any suggestions.
Then we told them, again in writing, that if we didn't receive a satisfactory resolution we would sue them in civil court for disrupting our lives and our sleep, making it difficult to earn a living and threatening our health.
After that we received a letter back from them telling us that our constant complaining was stressing them out, and they were looking for a new apartment. After a month we wrote again and recapitulated everything to date and again threatened the suit. They moved out shortly afterward.
Of course they might have been planning to move anyway, and our letters may have been pointless. And I have no idea whether a civil lawsuit was even possible, let alone whether it would have worked.
But it felt good to be taking some action. And maybe by continuously reminding them of the problem, without at any time getting in an argument with them, or being rude ourselves, we made them a little quieter than they would otherwise have been.
posted by lockedroomguy at 8:39 AM on April 10, 2007
The family above us had their kitchen above our bedroom, and were up at 6:30 AM each morning, while we usually sleep till 7:30. One of the children was allowed to jump up and down, or kick the table, or make some thumping noise repeatedly while they were eating breakfast. The same child ran back and forth throughout the apartment all day. (Routine day-to-day noises from other apartments are always audible in our building; we were complaining about extra-loud or repeated-at-length noises.)
We approached them nicely, and told them about the problems and they were completely unsympathetic, to the point of insanity. They never denied they were making the noise, just denied our right to be bothered by it. The woman was a screamer-as soon as we complained she started yelling.
Sometimes she was just insane. One time we heard a thumping in the hallway, and went to see what was happening. The mother was standing on the landing facing her three-year-old, who was 10 or 11 stairs above her, and she was encouraging him to come down by jumping onto each step. We asked her if she could stop it, and her response was, "What's your problem? He's only 3!"
...
So, we started writing letters, and copied our landlord and lawyer on each one. First we documented every problem we'd had with them, recounted exactly what we had asked them to do, and what they had responded. We pointed out what we did in our own apartment to minimize noise for our neighbors. Then we sent one explaining that we had tried everything we could to resolve this, and did they have any suggestions.
Then we told them, again in writing, that if we didn't receive a satisfactory resolution we would sue them in civil court for disrupting our lives and our sleep, making it difficult to earn a living and threatening our health.
After that we received a letter back from them telling us that our constant complaining was stressing them out, and they were looking for a new apartment. After a month we wrote again and recapitulated everything to date and again threatened the suit. They moved out shortly afterward.
Of course they might have been planning to move anyway, and our letters may have been pointless. And I have no idea whether a civil lawsuit was even possible, let alone whether it would have worked.
But it felt good to be taking some action. And maybe by continuously reminding them of the problem, without at any time getting in an argument with them, or being rude ourselves, we made them a little quieter than they would otherwise have been.
posted by lockedroomguy at 8:39 AM on April 10, 2007
I'm against revenge in principle.
Good. Your mind is probably in the right place. What screws people up in these situations is that they tend to (unconsciously) have to agendas at once:
1) solve the problem.
2) win. (I'm right. They're wrong.)
Neither of these goals are wrong, but they often conflict. So it's worth getting really clear with yourself which is more important to you. If someone told me that I was more interested (or somewhat interested) in winning (proving I'm right; achieving dominance; etc.), I would probably become really defensive and say that I wasn't -- that I just wanted to solve the problem.
But it's natural (when you've been wronged) to want to win. So if you have any such feeling, you shouldn't be embarrassed. You should just realize that this feeling, if acted on, may hinder the "solving the problem" goal.
I ask myself this: how would I feel about putting myself in the "beta male" position to solve the problem? How would I feel about getting the noisy neighbors a bottle of wine, inviting them over for dinner, etc.? If I have any feeling of, "I shouldn't have to cater to THEM!", then I've learned something. (Again, I haven't learned that I'm bad or wrong. I've learned that part of my wants personal justice. And this part may make it harder for me to solve the other problem.)
In my experience, social problems that AREN'T about winning or achieving dominance are almost never solved by power plays (yelling, calling the police, etc.) Such tactics put the other party on the defensive and make them less likely to back down.
I would make a friendly gesture BEYOND just "being polite." I would buy wine, etc. I would apologize for bothering them and ask them with as much humble-ness as I could muster if they'd turn down the radio, and I'd thank them for doing so. I'd urge them to tell me if anything I did bothered them. I'd do this via a note, so that if it makes them mad, they'll have time to think about it and so that they won't have to worry about dominance, social-standing, etc. in front of me.
I do stuff like this all the time, and people often tell me that I "shouldn't have to", "I'm abasing myself," "I'm giving them what they want," or "I'm not acting like a man." Whatever. It often solves the problem. (Without heightened blood pressure on either side.)
I WISH I did this more often than I do. I can't always turn off the need to win.
People won't necessarily respond to kindness. They won't necessarily respond to toughness, directness or any approach. But I'd try kindness first. If that doesn't work, at least you tried. You can then move on to tougher measures.
posted by grumblebee at 9:20 AM on April 10, 2007 [5 favorites]
Good. Your mind is probably in the right place. What screws people up in these situations is that they tend to (unconsciously) have to agendas at once:
1) solve the problem.
2) win. (I'm right. They're wrong.)
Neither of these goals are wrong, but they often conflict. So it's worth getting really clear with yourself which is more important to you. If someone told me that I was more interested (or somewhat interested) in winning (proving I'm right; achieving dominance; etc.), I would probably become really defensive and say that I wasn't -- that I just wanted to solve the problem.
But it's natural (when you've been wronged) to want to win. So if you have any such feeling, you shouldn't be embarrassed. You should just realize that this feeling, if acted on, may hinder the "solving the problem" goal.
I ask myself this: how would I feel about putting myself in the "beta male" position to solve the problem? How would I feel about getting the noisy neighbors a bottle of wine, inviting them over for dinner, etc.? If I have any feeling of, "I shouldn't have to cater to THEM!", then I've learned something. (Again, I haven't learned that I'm bad or wrong. I've learned that part of my wants personal justice. And this part may make it harder for me to solve the other problem.)
In my experience, social problems that AREN'T about winning or achieving dominance are almost never solved by power plays (yelling, calling the police, etc.) Such tactics put the other party on the defensive and make them less likely to back down.
I would make a friendly gesture BEYOND just "being polite." I would buy wine, etc. I would apologize for bothering them and ask them with as much humble-ness as I could muster if they'd turn down the radio, and I'd thank them for doing so. I'd urge them to tell me if anything I did bothered them. I'd do this via a note, so that if it makes them mad, they'll have time to think about it and so that they won't have to worry about dominance, social-standing, etc. in front of me.
I do stuff like this all the time, and people often tell me that I "shouldn't have to", "I'm abasing myself," "I'm giving them what they want," or "I'm not acting like a man." Whatever. It often solves the problem. (Without heightened blood pressure on either side.)
I WISH I did this more often than I do. I can't always turn off the need to win.
People won't necessarily respond to kindness. They won't necessarily respond to toughness, directness or any approach. But I'd try kindness first. If that doesn't work, at least you tried. You can then move on to tougher measures.
posted by grumblebee at 9:20 AM on April 10, 2007 [5 favorites]
Your upstairs neighbors used to be my upstairs neighbors. I asked them nicely to control their radio; I involved the landlord; I documented, eventually threatened. Nothing worked until I propped speakers against the ceiling of my apartment and blasted radio right back at them every time I heard theirs. This was not retaliation. It was reciprocation. And it worked -- I stopped hearing their noise and, after a few months, they moved to your building.
posted by gum at 10:51 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by gum at 10:51 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
29db rated foam earplugs, worn beneath $7.00 (malwart) shooter headphones will block out everything but the sound of your own blood and joints creaking.
Hobbytron sells am/fm transmitters. I suggest recording and looping a fundamentalist christian radio station, or perhaps a lecture on politeness.
posted by craniac at 11:05 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
Hobbytron sells am/fm transmitters. I suggest recording and looping a fundamentalist christian radio station, or perhaps a lecture on politeness.
posted by craniac at 11:05 AM on April 10, 2007 [1 favorite]
Don't know the exact decibel levels offhand, but in NYC there are, I believe, three standars for commercial, residential, and mixed-use. Commercial is a round-the-clock standard, residential is pretty low, and there is an after 11pm factor in some cases.
Myself, as the offending party, the resolution has involved flowers in extreme cases, a metal bar with which to knock on the pipes as a signal for "not now" and notification when leaving town so I can get it out of my system from time to time.
posted by StickyCarpet at 12:58 PM on April 10, 2007
Myself, as the offending party, the resolution has involved flowers in extreme cases, a metal bar with which to knock on the pipes as a signal for "not now" and notification when leaving town so I can get it out of my system from time to time.
posted by StickyCarpet at 12:58 PM on April 10, 2007
Response by poster: craniac, that's an EXCELLENT answer -- do you have any recommendations for a solution similar to that if I still need to use headphones as headphones (still need to listen to audio)? Currently I'm using closed headphones that reduce about 10db. Is there such a thing as shooter-protection-level phones that also pass through audio like regular phones?
gum, I don't know how much more clearly I can say I don't want to be told to add more noise and aggression to this situation.
posted by sparrows at 5:14 PM on April 10, 2007
gum, I don't know how much more clearly I can say I don't want to be told to add more noise and aggression to this situation.
posted by sparrows at 5:14 PM on April 10, 2007
Response by poster: I forgot to mention that ear-canal sealing phones or good earplugs tend to feel weird & uncomfortable to me. (If that weren't the case I would try ear-canal phones covered by shooter-protecting closed phones...)
posted by sparrows at 5:26 PM on April 10, 2007
posted by sparrows at 5:26 PM on April 10, 2007
In college, I worked as the Resident Manager of a campus apartment building. When people approached me about noise issues with neighbors (and they were frequent), I'd advise them to approach their neighbors in a non-confrontational manner first. That was the best route because if I went to the door at 3am in the morning to ask them to turn the TV down because a neighbor complained, it would offend them. I'd say try to talk to your neighbor first, because most of the time they're oblivious.
There were a few times where tenants would declare war on each other by escalating noise levels, but it was mostly brought on by what the offending neighbor thought was a hostile action by alerting the manager on duty.
posted by loquat at 8:17 PM on April 10, 2007
There were a few times where tenants would declare war on each other by escalating noise levels, but it was mostly brought on by what the offending neighbor thought was a hostile action by alerting the manager on duty.
posted by loquat at 8:17 PM on April 10, 2007
Class has nothing to do with it. I lived on CPS for a little over three years on the same floor as a harridan who would leave her door open and blast conservative talk radio all day. Management was in the building and did nothing when I complained--she was still allowed to stay even after she passed out one day with a pot of something on her stove; after that she had a caretaker come in daily, but the noise didn't stop.
posted by brujita at 9:16 PM on April 10, 2007
posted by brujita at 9:16 PM on April 10, 2007
Response by poster: brujita, the discussion of class is about gentrification and how it affects interactions, not a claim that people of certain classes make more noise.
As an update, I have never gotten an answer from the person, knocking at different times; and the management company has not returned any of my messages asking them to call me. Not much of an update, but I did want to thank craniac for inspiring me to try sealing earplugs with closed phones, a partial solution. (But I can't mark that as a best answer, since the rest of that answer was yet another "revenge" response.)
posted by sparrows at 1:48 AM on May 8, 2007
As an update, I have never gotten an answer from the person, knocking at different times; and the management company has not returned any of my messages asking them to call me. Not much of an update, but I did want to thank craniac for inspiring me to try sealing earplugs with closed phones, a partial solution. (But I can't mark that as a best answer, since the rest of that answer was yet another "revenge" response.)
posted by sparrows at 1:48 AM on May 8, 2007
Response by poster: Final update now that it's summer: it was laughable to think I would have any influence over noise in this building. I hear wall-shaking music from multiple apartments, all day except a small block of the wee hours on weeknights (usually quiet 3am-7am). And from the street too, now that people are just leaving their car radios on at full volume as their soundtrack for hanging with their friends on the stoops.
You could call it "what happens when everybody in an entire neighborhood has revenge mentality." But to be accurate, it can't really be called revenge in this case because it's not targeted; you just turn your own volume up to max because everything else is so loud you wou'dn't be able to hear your own otherwise.
The person I originally posted about is the least of my worries; she is now drowned out by the rest.
posted by sparrows at 1:13 AM on May 30, 2007
You could call it "what happens when everybody in an entire neighborhood has revenge mentality." But to be accurate, it can't really be called revenge in this case because it's not targeted; you just turn your own volume up to max because everything else is so loud you wou'dn't be able to hear your own otherwise.
The person I originally posted about is the least of my worries; she is now drowned out by the rest.
posted by sparrows at 1:13 AM on May 30, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
It sounds like you are in anarchist-type situation--there's no authority that can/will take over the problem. What I would fantasize about but probably never get around to is jamming the signal. You should be able to figure out what station is being played, so rig up a micro radio station on the same frequency and drown your neighbor out. (You could also do a little stimulus-response training by only jamming when the volume is objectionably high to teach them to keep it down.)
posted by DU at 4:32 AM on April 10, 2007