What blood relation am I to Madonna?
February 28, 2007 2:22 PM Subscribe
What blood relation am I to Madonna?
I just recently found out that the daughter of my nonna's uncle's son (Silvio P. Ciccone) is Madonna. How does that make me related to her?
I just recently found out that the daughter of my nonna's uncle's son (Silvio P. Ciccone) is Madonna. How does that make me related to her?
looks like second cousins, once removed, if i'm reading it right.
posted by sergeant sandwich at 2:28 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by sergeant sandwich at 2:28 PM on February 28, 2007
And is her uncle a "regular" uncle or a great-uncle (i.e., brother of one of her parents, or brother of one of her grandparents?). I believe this makes a difference in terms of whether his son (Madonna's father) is her first cousin or her second cousin.
posted by scody at 2:29 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by scody at 2:29 PM on February 28, 2007
Third cousin, once removed: You share a common ancestor at the great-great-grandparent level.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 2:29 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by Saucy Intruder at 2:29 PM on February 28, 2007
Super handy chart for these confusing things.
posted by contessa at 2:29 PM on February 28, 2007 [8 favorites]
posted by contessa at 2:29 PM on February 28, 2007 [8 favorites]
Your nonna's uncle's son = your nonna's first cousin... Which would make him (Silvio) your third cousin... Which would make his daughter (Madonna) your third cousin once removed.
posted by amyms at 2:30 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by amyms at 2:30 PM on February 28, 2007
I think Madonn'a dad would be the first cousin of sjvalla's grandparent (nonna's uncle's son would be nonna's cousin), so Madonna would be her mother or father's second cousin, so Madonna would be sjvilla's second cousin, once removed. I think.
posted by muddgirl at 2:31 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by muddgirl at 2:31 PM on February 28, 2007
Here are people in the same generation on the same line:
You
Your parent - Madonna (second cousins)
Your nonna - Silvio P. Ciccone (first cousins)
Your nonna's parent - Gaetano Ciccone (siblings)
That means that she is the second cousin of your mother, and your second cousin once removed. Wikipedia explains what it means to be removed.
posted by grouse at 2:32 PM on February 28, 2007
You
Your parent - Madonna (second cousins)
Your nonna - Silvio P. Ciccone (first cousins)
Your nonna's parent - Gaetano Ciccone (siblings)
That means that she is the second cousin of your mother, and your second cousin once removed. Wikipedia explains what it means to be removed.
posted by grouse at 2:32 PM on February 28, 2007
Second cousin once removed. (Nonna's uncle's son is her first cousin. Your parent is Madonna's second cousin. You are her second cousin once removed.
(I'm Southern and we have to keep all this stuff straight.)
posted by konolia at 2:32 PM on February 28, 2007
(I'm Southern and we have to keep all this stuff straight.)
posted by konolia at 2:32 PM on February 28, 2007
OK, I'm officially on board with second cousin once removed.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 2:34 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by Saucy Intruder at 2:34 PM on February 28, 2007
Yes, you and Madonna are second-cousins once removed.
Here's a cousin calculator.
posted by vacapinta at 2:34 PM on February 28, 2007
Here's a cousin calculator.
posted by vacapinta at 2:34 PM on February 28, 2007
Response by poster: Scody, the uncle is the brother of my nonna's mother. Saucy Intruder sounds like he's correct. Is this relationship significant though? I've never done any genealogy before.
posted by sjvilla79 at 2:35 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by sjvilla79 at 2:35 PM on February 28, 2007
Is this relationship significant though? I've never done any genealogy before.
I would say that if you didn't know you were related to her before and she hasn't shown up to any family picnics, it isn't particularly significant.
posted by stefnet at 2:39 PM on February 28, 2007 [2 favorites]
I would say that if you didn't know you were related to her before and she hasn't shown up to any family picnics, it isn't particularly significant.
posted by stefnet at 2:39 PM on February 28, 2007 [2 favorites]
Saucy Intruder is wrong the first time and right the second. Another way to put it is that your great-great-grandparent is Madonna's great-grandparent, which means that second cousin once removed is right.
posted by muddgirl at 2:40 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by muddgirl at 2:40 PM on February 28, 2007
Response by poster: Oh I see Saucy Intruder isn't correct.
posted by sjvilla79 at 2:41 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by sjvilla79 at 2:41 PM on February 28, 2007
Response by poster: Got it now. Thanks for the help.
posted by sjvilla79 at 2:43 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by sjvilla79 at 2:43 PM on February 28, 2007
I'm with muddgirl: second cousins, once removed.
Your great-great-grandparent (your grandmother's grandparent) was Madonna's great-grandparent (her grandfather's parent). Check the wikipedia chart, with this info.
posted by LobsterMitten at 2:43 PM on February 28, 2007
Your great-great-grandparent (your grandmother's grandparent) was Madonna's great-grandparent (her grandfather's parent). Check the wikipedia chart, with this info.
posted by LobsterMitten at 2:43 PM on February 28, 2007
Wow. should preview.
posted by LobsterMitten at 2:44 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by LobsterMitten at 2:44 PM on February 28, 2007
the uncle is the brother of my nonna's mother
Okay, so he's the brother of your great-grandmother, which makes him your great-grand-uncle. Madonna is therefore your great-grand-uncle's granddaughter. Yep, second cousin once removed is correct.
posted by scody at 2:46 PM on February 28, 2007
Okay, so he's the brother of your great-grandmother, which makes him your great-grand-uncle. Madonna is therefore your great-grand-uncle's granddaughter. Yep, second cousin once removed is correct.
posted by scody at 2:46 PM on February 28, 2007
The biological significance is that your coefficient of relationship is 0.004. This means that, on average, 0.04 percent (not 4 percent) of your genetic material comes from the same ancestor. That's not very much.
posted by grouse at 2:52 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by grouse at 2:52 PM on February 28, 2007
Huh! In Asia we don't really have the "second cousin once removed" thing - anyone a generation above that isn't a parent is your aunt/uncle; anyone your generation that isn't a sibling is your cousin; anyone a generation below that isn't a son or daughter is your niece/nephew. So Madonna would either be your aunt or your grand-aunt.
posted by divabat at 3:02 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by divabat at 3:02 PM on February 28, 2007
divabat, that system - assuming you and I are approximately the same generation - makes you and I cousins.
Is that right?
posted by dmd at 3:42 PM on February 28, 2007
Is that right?
posted by dmd at 3:42 PM on February 28, 2007
Another vote for second cousins once removed here.
To simplify: Madonna's father is your nonna's first cousin. Madonna is therefore your parent's second cousin. You are of the next generation - hence the once removed.
Lourdes and Rocco are your third cousins :)
posted by TheOtherGuy at 3:54 PM on February 28, 2007
To simplify: Madonna's father is your nonna's first cousin. Madonna is therefore your parent's second cousin. You are of the next generation - hence the once removed.
Lourdes and Rocco are your third cousins :)
posted by TheOtherGuy at 3:54 PM on February 28, 2007
As for the significance. Well its all relative isn't it? (no pun intended)
My mother (in Australia) writes to a distant relative ours in Ireland. Different members of our families have met up over the years, and we know we have a bed in Dublin any time we happen to visit.
We got out the family tree one day and worked out that my mother and her penpal are third cousins once removed: More distant than you and Madonna, yet there is still a kinship between them.
I would say that the relationship is 'significant' between you and madonna.. but as stefnet suggests - probably not practical :)
posted by TheOtherGuy at 4:01 PM on February 28, 2007
My mother (in Australia) writes to a distant relative ours in Ireland. Different members of our families have met up over the years, and we know we have a bed in Dublin any time we happen to visit.
We got out the family tree one day and worked out that my mother and her penpal are third cousins once removed: More distant than you and Madonna, yet there is still a kinship between them.
I would say that the relationship is 'significant' between you and madonna.. but as stefnet suggests - probably not practical :)
posted by TheOtherGuy at 4:01 PM on February 28, 2007
You know those childhood notions people have that slowly evaporate in adult epiphanies over time? At 35, I thought I was done with them. Turns out, until just a few moments ago I still thought that "second cousins once removed" implied divorce. I do remember thinking it was strange that twice and three times removed seemed like an awful lot of times to divorce and remarry, but not enough to question it.
Thanks AskMe!
posted by roue at 4:09 PM on February 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
Thanks AskMe!
posted by roue at 4:09 PM on February 28, 2007 [1 favorite]
Did you know that you're also related to Celine Dion? It may be via marriage, as I don't have the chart in front of me, but I know that Madonna and Celine are related.
posted by thanotopsis at 4:17 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by thanotopsis at 4:17 PM on February 28, 2007
Don't ask me why I know this, but I'm pretty sure Madonna's related to Celine Dion on her mother's side--Mrs. Ciccone was French-Canadian. So sjvilla's relationship to Celine would be indirect.
posted by padraigin at 4:46 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by padraigin at 4:46 PM on February 28, 2007
The Celine Dion relationship is through Madonna's mother, Madonna Louise Fortin. Who is also related to Camilla Parker-Bowles.
Not to mention Charles and Diana, FDR, Karl Marx, and the Marquis de Sade.
One big happy ....
Anyway, one more vote here for second cousin once removed. Your nonna is a first cousin of Silvio (he is a son of her uncle). The children of first cousins are second cousins, so your father is a second cousin to Madonna. You are one more generation "removed", so second cousin once removed.
As a small bit of confusion, it was a common usage in some parts of the US for "second cousin" to be the same as "first cousin once removed", and so forth, but this is disappearing.
Is this significant? I go with the family event rule of thumb, personally. I have met some of my second cousins, but this is partly because my father was close with one particular set of first cousins growing up.
posted by dhartung at 7:51 PM on February 28, 2007
Not to mention Charles and Diana, FDR, Karl Marx, and the Marquis de Sade.
One big happy ....
Anyway, one more vote here for second cousin once removed. Your nonna is a first cousin of Silvio (he is a son of her uncle). The children of first cousins are second cousins, so your father is a second cousin to Madonna. You are one more generation "removed", so second cousin once removed.
As a small bit of confusion, it was a common usage in some parts of the US for "second cousin" to be the same as "first cousin once removed", and so forth, but this is disappearing.
Is this significant? I go with the family event rule of thumb, personally. I have met some of my second cousins, but this is partly because my father was close with one particular set of first cousins growing up.
posted by dhartung at 7:51 PM on February 28, 2007
Plug everybody into a real live (web 2.0ish)family tree at Geni and it should tell you everybody's relationship to you.
posted by misterbrandt at 9:51 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by misterbrandt at 9:51 PM on February 28, 2007
dmd - sorta, but you'll need to link it up. If you're my parents' siblings' kid, or my parents' cousins' kid, or my grandparents' nieces&nephews' kid, you're my cousin.
posted by divabat at 11:18 PM on February 28, 2007
posted by divabat at 11:18 PM on February 28, 2007
divabat - my point was that that kind of system places no limit whatsoever on distance. any two people of the same generation are simply called "cousins". You and I are cousins because we share a common ancestor thousands of years ago. That doesn't make much sense to me, compared to a system where we'd have to be specified as "first cousins six hundred times removed" or something like that, where it's clear that we're not "related" in the normal sense of the word.
posted by dmd at 6:19 AM on March 1, 2007
posted by dmd at 6:19 AM on March 1, 2007
dmd: Hence the need to link up. I can't just point to you and say "you're my cousin"; I'll need to actually prove it by working out our family trees. To us, saying stuff like "second cousin thrice removed" is non-intuitive. You're my mum's cousin, so you're my aunt, not my cousin. Etc.
If you're very distant to me then you're not really a "relative" so to speak.
posted by divabat at 1:17 PM on March 1, 2007
If you're very distant to me then you're not really a "relative" so to speak.
posted by divabat at 1:17 PM on March 1, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by cortex at 2:25 PM on February 28, 2007