Narcissistic and whining friend
January 8, 2007 3:03 PM Subscribe
How do I tell my good friend that she whines and is self-absorbed without offending her?
She only ever contacts me when she has a problem, or wants to tell me about something in her life, never just to chat or ask about what's new in my life. It's gotten to the point where she's declared persona non grata at my family's, as well as by my roommate because of her self-centered personality.
I'll be visiting family next weekend on the east coast, and was planning to see her for a few hours while I was out there. I'd like to take the opportunity to talk to her in person to see if I can evoke some kind of useful thought process or change in her.
What's the best way of going about telling someone they're losing existing friends, and not making any new friendships, because of their narcissistic behavior?
She only ever contacts me when she has a problem, or wants to tell me about something in her life, never just to chat or ask about what's new in my life. It's gotten to the point where she's declared persona non grata at my family's, as well as by my roommate because of her self-centered personality.
I'll be visiting family next weekend on the east coast, and was planning to see her for a few hours while I was out there. I'd like to take the opportunity to talk to her in person to see if I can evoke some kind of useful thought process or change in her.
What's the best way of going about telling someone they're losing existing friends, and not making any new friendships, because of their narcissistic behavior?
Has she always been this way? Is she going through a difficult time in her life that is making her more needy than usual?
It may be best to talk to her about your friendship with her only, and not bring up the effects she has on other people. Can you tell her that you are hurt by the fact that she never asks about what's going on with you? I've been in a similar situation and took a straightforward approach - "we've been friends a long time and lately I feel that I'm not getting much out of the friendship, for reasons x, y, and z. I miss how our friendship used to be and wish we could connect the way we used to." Unfortunately it didn't work and I had to break up with this friend, but I felt like I gave it a fair shot.
posted by Nathanial Hörnblowér at 3:13 PM on January 8, 2007
It may be best to talk to her about your friendship with her only, and not bring up the effects she has on other people. Can you tell her that you are hurt by the fact that she never asks about what's going on with you? I've been in a similar situation and took a straightforward approach - "we've been friends a long time and lately I feel that I'm not getting much out of the friendship, for reasons x, y, and z. I miss how our friendship used to be and wish we could connect the way we used to." Unfortunately it didn't work and I had to break up with this friend, but I felt like I gave it a fair shot.
posted by Nathanial Hörnblowér at 3:13 PM on January 8, 2007
I once had somebody tell me I was being really self absorbed, and it really did make me see the light. But that person wasn't a close friend, and I really didn't have that much invested in his friendship, so I was more open to his perceptions of me and willing to see the truth about my behavior. I think it also helped that my episode of self-absorption was limited to one specific, time-limited problem that I had been blowing out of proportion, so I knew my entire personality wasn't being attacked.
So, I guess I would suggest that instead of telling your friend "you're a narcissist," that you focus on specific behaviors that she could change.
posted by footnote at 3:13 PM on January 8, 2007
So, I guess I would suggest that instead of telling your friend "you're a narcissist," that you focus on specific behaviors that she could change.
posted by footnote at 3:13 PM on January 8, 2007
If she's always been like this, you might consider that by telling you what is going on with her, she means for you to reciprocate and volunteer what you are up to. I always feel awkward asking people what they are up to and wish they would just tell me. I try to remember to ask, because I know that many people don't see the implicit request, but I don't do it as much as I ought to. I started trying at least when people pointed it out.
Then again, I am still really self-absorbed, so maybe my advice isn't super helpful. Or maybe it is the most helpful.
posted by dame at 3:21 PM on January 8, 2007
Then again, I am still really self-absorbed, so maybe my advice isn't super helpful. Or maybe it is the most helpful.
posted by dame at 3:21 PM on January 8, 2007
There is no possible way to tell someone that they're a whiny, self-absorbed narcissist without offending them. How do you feel about people telling you about your unpleasant qualities? (I'm sure you have them in spades; we all do. We can only hope our friends are willing to ignore our foibles.)
Why is she still your friend? Do you actually like her? If yes, you could try focusing on her good qualities, and reaffirming them when she exhibits them.
"Oh, it's so fun when we talk about the good old days!"/"I love it when you ask me about what's going on with me! You're one of my closest friends, and I feel that I can open up to you in a way I can't with most people."
If you absolutely must criticize her, keep it specific, phrase it as "I feel" and give her the benefit of the doubt: "The last time we spoke, I felt like you weren't really listening to me. Am I suddenly boring? Is something going on with you?"
posted by thehmsbeagle at 3:22 PM on January 8, 2007
Why is she still your friend? Do you actually like her? If yes, you could try focusing on her good qualities, and reaffirming them when she exhibits them.
"Oh, it's so fun when we talk about the good old days!"/"I love it when you ask me about what's going on with me! You're one of my closest friends, and I feel that I can open up to you in a way I can't with most people."
If you absolutely must criticize her, keep it specific, phrase it as "I feel" and give her the benefit of the doubt: "The last time we spoke, I felt like you weren't really listening to me. Am I suddenly boring? Is something going on with you?"
posted by thehmsbeagle at 3:22 PM on January 8, 2007
Tough one. People have to want to change before they will change, and if your friend is not ready for such a change she will probably get offended and I doubt there is much you can do to prevent it. I have a friend who is just like this and rather than try to fix her I have basically stopped seeing her.
Whenever someone posts a delicate etiquette-like question on AskMe, I try and imagine myself on the receiving end and think of how I would like to be treated. Presumably your friend is unaware that she is being obnoxious. If someone told me I was being obnoxious I would either be angry and defensive, if I disagreed, or very embarassed and uncomfortable, if I realized you were right. I can think of no good way for such a conversation to end. Thus I recommend a carefully thought out letter to your friend that she can read at her leisure, and choose to ignore if she pleases. In this letter you should stress that you are writing it precisely because you care about her and you believe that she is unaware that she is pushing people away. Keep it short and to the point, and offer your continued support if she wants to talk.
posted by PercussivePaul at 3:23 PM on January 8, 2007 [1 favorite]
Whenever someone posts a delicate etiquette-like question on AskMe, I try and imagine myself on the receiving end and think of how I would like to be treated. Presumably your friend is unaware that she is being obnoxious. If someone told me I was being obnoxious I would either be angry and defensive, if I disagreed, or very embarassed and uncomfortable, if I realized you were right. I can think of no good way for such a conversation to end. Thus I recommend a carefully thought out letter to your friend that she can read at her leisure, and choose to ignore if she pleases. In this letter you should stress that you are writing it precisely because you care about her and you believe that she is unaware that she is pushing people away. Keep it short and to the point, and offer your continued support if she wants to talk.
posted by PercussivePaul at 3:23 PM on January 8, 2007 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: MegoSteve, you're right, I wouldn't have needed to say anything unless it was pushing me away. It's gotten to that point, however, and because of the past I'd like to keep her as a friend.
The problem is, this behavior isn't temporary. She's been like this for as long as I've known her.
posted by pcward at 3:28 PM on January 8, 2007
The problem is, this behavior isn't temporary. She's been like this for as long as I've known her.
posted by pcward at 3:28 PM on January 8, 2007
I've known people like this. When it gets to the point when they are so whiny and self-absorbed that they drive people away, then they start whining, "Nobody likes me! People treat me badly!" etc, etc, etc. With one, it's gotten to the point where she whines about herself: "There's something wrong with me. I just can't have any friends."
When you say "She's been like this for as long as I've known her" I wonder if that is simply the way she is. You may be able to gently suggest changes in the way she speaks and interacts with you. But, ultimately, it may take something "major" for her to change such an ingrained pattern of behavior and relationships with others. I don't know if your friendship is one so close where you could suggest various forms of self-improvement or therapy. I bet that doing so would, in fact, give offense.
As a friend who lives at a distance, you may simply have to end up allowing her to remain at a distance, both physically and emotionally.
posted by Robert Angelo at 3:49 PM on January 8, 2007
When you say "She's been like this for as long as I've known her" I wonder if that is simply the way she is. You may be able to gently suggest changes in the way she speaks and interacts with you. But, ultimately, it may take something "major" for her to change such an ingrained pattern of behavior and relationships with others. I don't know if your friendship is one so close where you could suggest various forms of self-improvement or therapy. I bet that doing so would, in fact, give offense.
As a friend who lives at a distance, you may simply have to end up allowing her to remain at a distance, both physically and emotionally.
posted by Robert Angelo at 3:49 PM on January 8, 2007
It depends on who you are, and how you deal with things. Some people can look a friend in the face, tell them to stop whining and get themselves together, and their intent is clearly understood.
If you've been a doormat for this long, it's going to be tough to change things. If someone's last source of venting turns on them, they're going to have to face their own woes. Maybe she'll see the light. Maybe she'll break down. Maybe she'll just become horribly offended, break things off, and find some other doormat to walk on.
Personally, I'd think if you want to be a good friend, you should be honest and direct regardless of the consequences. However, that's a judgment call. The best way of approaching this varies from person to person.
Still, I'd say go right ahead and risk offending her. If she's got the guts to fix things up, she'll probably thank you for it. If not, then is this friendship enough that you're willing to remain a doormat? The constant wear of mild annoyance is often far worse than one painful sting.
posted by Saydur at 4:06 PM on January 8, 2007
If you've been a doormat for this long, it's going to be tough to change things. If someone's last source of venting turns on them, they're going to have to face their own woes. Maybe she'll see the light. Maybe she'll break down. Maybe she'll just become horribly offended, break things off, and find some other doormat to walk on.
Personally, I'd think if you want to be a good friend, you should be honest and direct regardless of the consequences. However, that's a judgment call. The best way of approaching this varies from person to person.
Still, I'd say go right ahead and risk offending her. If she's got the guts to fix things up, she'll probably thank you for it. If not, then is this friendship enough that you're willing to remain a doormat? The constant wear of mild annoyance is often far worse than one painful sting.
posted by Saydur at 4:06 PM on January 8, 2007
It's better to address one instance, rather than saying, "You often do this" or "You have a tendency to ..." . When you're in the midst of a chat, turn the conversation to what's going on with you, and see what happens. If she doesn't show any interest, that's your moment to press the issue. Another approach: talk to her about the last time it happened. "Last time we talked, I wanted to tell you about x, but you were preoccupied with your situation."
The other part of your question had to do with her complaining about her problems. With a whiny sister and a whiny friend, I've had pretty good pretty good results with a version of this: "You've been talking about this problem for a long time. Is there anything you can do about it?" or, "I listen to you talk about this particular problem in hopes that my listening will help in some way. But it doesn't seem to. I'd like to stay away from this subject for a while."
When I say I had good results, I mean that it didn't turn into a big argument or result in hugely hurt feelings. The sister got the message; the friend didn't and so we don't talk anymore.
posted by wryly at 4:25 PM on January 8, 2007
The other part of your question had to do with her complaining about her problems. With a whiny sister and a whiny friend, I've had pretty good pretty good results with a version of this: "You've been talking about this problem for a long time. Is there anything you can do about it?" or, "I listen to you talk about this particular problem in hopes that my listening will help in some way. But it doesn't seem to. I'd like to stay away from this subject for a while."
When I say I had good results, I mean that it didn't turn into a big argument or result in hugely hurt feelings. The sister got the message; the friend didn't and so we don't talk anymore.
posted by wryly at 4:25 PM on January 8, 2007
Honestly, I think the answer to your question is irrelevant; I don't believe there's anything you can do to make them stop being that way. I've had a few friends like that in my life and nothing has ever changed things - they've continued to be the kind of friend who's always there for them and never there for me. Until finally I just jettisoned them as a friend.
I'd tried cutting back contact and contacting them on my time, steering the conversation away from bitchfests (within reason - everyone deserves a shoulder to cry on SOMETIMES), being careful about what kinds of social activities I went to with them... never made a difference.
posted by phearlez at 4:46 PM on January 8, 2007
I'd tried cutting back contact and contacting them on my time, steering the conversation away from bitchfests (within reason - everyone deserves a shoulder to cry on SOMETIMES), being careful about what kinds of social activities I went to with them... never made a difference.
posted by phearlez at 4:46 PM on January 8, 2007
I have a relative like this, who only ever contacts me when some drama is going down. She never asks how I'm going or if I'm happy and healthy.
Finally, the drama was just too much for me and I had to confront her, telling her that I was willing to listen to her problems but I wasn't going to be her guidance counselor, and that if she wanted to have a real relationship with me she should stop calling only when something is wrong.
It's worked, for the most part, but I still have to put the breaks on when she gets too self-pitying. Usually this involves saying something like "I have to call you back later," or ignoring her negative emails.
posted by Brittanie at 4:51 PM on January 8, 2007
Finally, the drama was just too much for me and I had to confront her, telling her that I was willing to listen to her problems but I wasn't going to be her guidance counselor, and that if she wanted to have a real relationship with me she should stop calling only when something is wrong.
It's worked, for the most part, but I still have to put the breaks on when she gets too self-pitying. Usually this involves saying something like "I have to call you back later," or ignoring her negative emails.
posted by Brittanie at 4:51 PM on January 8, 2007
Best answer: pcward...
You are kind and brave to consider doing this for your friend. If you decide to follow through with it, it may net you nothing except hard feelings, but nothing worthwhile comes for free, usually. Still, it while many people can rightly recommend doing nothing, for a real friend risk and honesty are the test.
If this person has passed the test of worthwhile/not worthwhile and warrants your investment, you are in one situation. If they don't pass that test, and if you don't see the two of you as friends in 20 years, then you might want to fight another battle and let someone else 'improve' her.
But if you do feel like you want to, and you would like an approach I have sometimes used successfully, you might consider approaching this from a questioning direction (i.e., "Mary... I love you and think you are an interesting person, and I am concerned that there is something going on that you might not be aware of. I have noticed that I am having a little trouble remembering when someone last suggested we all get together with you and do something. Are you aware of any changes in the way people are reacting to you over the last few years? ")
There are several good books that deal with difficult situations like this. Two my favorites are 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' and 'Difficult Conversations'. Other MeFites have quasi-ridiculed the first because of its advanced age, but Dale Carnegie's organization is still doing a brisk and expensive business teaching the interpersonal skills in the book, and I have seen them work. Just my personal opinion, of course and they may not help you at all.
Nonetheless, if she's worth helping out (by your assessment), and you are willing to do it, you might as well try someone else's technique and do the best you can. Even if unsuccessful NOW, the seed you plant may take hold with her next observation and she might be saved from a lonely existence in the future.
Good luck. I do think you are kind and brave and wish you success with this. She's lucky to have at least one person left who cares.
posted by FauxScot at 5:49 PM on January 8, 2007
You are kind and brave to consider doing this for your friend. If you decide to follow through with it, it may net you nothing except hard feelings, but nothing worthwhile comes for free, usually. Still, it while many people can rightly recommend doing nothing, for a real friend risk and honesty are the test.
If this person has passed the test of worthwhile/not worthwhile and warrants your investment, you are in one situation. If they don't pass that test, and if you don't see the two of you as friends in 20 years, then you might want to fight another battle and let someone else 'improve' her.
But if you do feel like you want to, and you would like an approach I have sometimes used successfully, you might consider approaching this from a questioning direction (i.e., "Mary... I love you and think you are an interesting person, and I am concerned that there is something going on that you might not be aware of. I have noticed that I am having a little trouble remembering when someone last suggested we all get together with you and do something. Are you aware of any changes in the way people are reacting to you over the last few years? ")
There are several good books that deal with difficult situations like this. Two my favorites are 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' and 'Difficult Conversations'. Other MeFites have quasi-ridiculed the first because of its advanced age, but Dale Carnegie's organization is still doing a brisk and expensive business teaching the interpersonal skills in the book, and I have seen them work. Just my personal opinion, of course and they may not help you at all.
Nonetheless, if she's worth helping out (by your assessment), and you are willing to do it, you might as well try someone else's technique and do the best you can. Even if unsuccessful NOW, the seed you plant may take hold with her next observation and she might be saved from a lonely existence in the future.
Good luck. I do think you are kind and brave and wish you success with this. She's lucky to have at least one person left who cares.
posted by FauxScot at 5:49 PM on January 8, 2007
On re-read, I should mention that the questioning approach spefically avoids being initially judgmental, and positions you WITH her, not in direct opposition. It also starts with sincere praise, which if it's real, will come through as concern, teaming, and care, as opposed to criticism, condemnation and complaining. (This is from Carnegie generally.) The idea is to arrive at understanding, not to enforce change. Blunt can be good with the right personalities, if YOU can pull it off, but the soft sell, the gentle inquiry, and the kind word are better for most situations I have seen.
posted by FauxScot at 6:29 PM on January 8, 2007
posted by FauxScot at 6:29 PM on January 8, 2007
I think wryly has the best suggestion.
Don't tell her "you have a problem." Suggest "let's do X."
posted by salvia at 6:35 PM on January 8, 2007
Don't tell her "you have a problem." Suggest "let's do X."
posted by salvia at 6:35 PM on January 8, 2007
You could "mirror" her offensive behavior until she goes away. Somebody with the same personal flaws won't thrill me.
posted by davy at 7:18 PM on January 8, 2007
posted by davy at 7:18 PM on January 8, 2007
I've had people point out my negative characteristics in the moment twice, and even though it hurt my feelings a little to hear it I'm glad they did.
Once, I was rambling on and my best friend interrupted: "Crouton, you have this habit of rambling on and its really boring." I was offended and convinced that I wasn't dull, but once I'd cooled off I realized I was right. I can still turn into a rambler at times, but I watch for it and I think I've become a better conversationalist as a result.
The other time, I was arguing with a guy I had a crush on at the time. "You're such a know it all!" he said. "Why do you always have to be right!" My response was to tell him I was not a know-it-all, and to try to convince him I didn't have to be right all the time. Uh, der... Anyhow, I've kind of learned to suppress that urge in polite company, though I still need to get out my know-it-all urges on ask.metafilter and with my husband. I try at least to be humorous and self-aware about it.
Anyhow, I'm really glad people told me about these characteristics. If they hadn't been pointed out to me, I might never have figured it out on my own. I think it's worth risking, though "in the moment" is probably better than "premeditated." Maybe wait until you're hanging out with your friend and she falls into her pattern, and just interrupt: "You know, you're really self-absorbed and you don't seem interested in me at all! Gah!" See what happens.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 8:27 PM on January 8, 2007
Once, I was rambling on and my best friend interrupted: "Crouton, you have this habit of rambling on and its really boring." I was offended and convinced that I wasn't dull, but once I'd cooled off I realized I was right. I can still turn into a rambler at times, but I watch for it and I think I've become a better conversationalist as a result.
The other time, I was arguing with a guy I had a crush on at the time. "You're such a know it all!" he said. "Why do you always have to be right!" My response was to tell him I was not a know-it-all, and to try to convince him I didn't have to be right all the time. Uh, der... Anyhow, I've kind of learned to suppress that urge in polite company, though I still need to get out my know-it-all urges on ask.metafilter and with my husband. I try at least to be humorous and self-aware about it.
Anyhow, I'm really glad people told me about these characteristics. If they hadn't been pointed out to me, I might never have figured it out on my own. I think it's worth risking, though "in the moment" is probably better than "premeditated." Maybe wait until you're hanging out with your friend and she falls into her pattern, and just interrupt: "You know, you're really self-absorbed and you don't seem interested in me at all! Gah!" See what happens.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 8:27 PM on January 8, 2007
I realized I was right
er, I realized she was right.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 8:29 PM on January 8, 2007 [1 favorite]
er, I realized she was right.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 8:29 PM on January 8, 2007 [1 favorite]
I had a friend. She is remarkable in some respects. Intelligent, blisteringly funny, totally unpredictable in a good way, creative, etc etc. However, she is SO self absorbed that it borders on neurosis. I felt that our friendship was eroding because of the bad and in spite of the good, so I opened my big fat mouth and tried to get her to step outside of herself and see how others saw her.
it started innocently enough. To make it so that we can still be friends, this is what we need to do. That didn't go well...there was a tantrum. Then there were emails that skipped being nice and bluntly said what needed to be said. That also didn't go well either, and caused her to lash out pretty hurtfully towards me. Then it just got ugly and we both said things that we may have regretted, if we should ever talk again.
I can't stress enough how many times I tried to make her realize that the common denominator in her constant shedding of friends was her. at this point, I can only hope that someday she realizes that I was trying to help her by trying to make her think outside of herself.
how many times does someone go through the same wringer before they realize that they need to change how they ARE?
how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop?
...the world may never know.
posted by modernpoverty at 8:36 PM on January 8, 2007
it started innocently enough. To make it so that we can still be friends, this is what we need to do. That didn't go well...there was a tantrum. Then there were emails that skipped being nice and bluntly said what needed to be said. That also didn't go well either, and caused her to lash out pretty hurtfully towards me. Then it just got ugly and we both said things that we may have regretted, if we should ever talk again.
I can't stress enough how many times I tried to make her realize that the common denominator in her constant shedding of friends was her. at this point, I can only hope that someday she realizes that I was trying to help her by trying to make her think outside of herself.
how many times does someone go through the same wringer before they realize that they need to change how they ARE?
how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop?
...the world may never know.
posted by modernpoverty at 8:36 PM on January 8, 2007
"It's hard for a friend to be objective enough to help you with [whatever the problem is] – maybe you should have a few sessions with a counsellor if [the issue] is troubling you so much. Now in other news, have I told you about my [new job/kitten/boyfriend/shoes]?"
posted by zadcat at 10:23 PM on January 8, 2007
posted by zadcat at 10:23 PM on January 8, 2007
Being friends is like being in a rowboat with another person. Sometimes, you both row at the same time. Sometimes, even if you don't want to, you have to row the boat alone. Sometimes, when you just can't row, your friend rows the boat alone. One problem happens when you're the one always rowing the boat by yourself. The other problem happens when one person insists that you both have to row together all the time.
posted by gokart4xmas at 5:56 AM on January 9, 2007 [5 favorites]
posted by gokart4xmas at 5:56 AM on January 9, 2007 [5 favorites]
I like gokart4xmas's response. that's a great way to look at any relationship with give and take.
posted by indigo4963 at 8:10 AM on January 9, 2007
posted by indigo4963 at 8:10 AM on January 9, 2007
I see there's already a best response, but wanted to add this:
It depends on who you are, and how you deal with things.
I'd propose, "It depends on who she is, and how she deals with things."
I have a friend like yours and she absolutely cannot handle the truth or any negative comments about herself. Perhaps it has something to do with her self-absorbedness. If you don't think your response will be welcomed, you may want to consider just letting it go or being a friend at a distance. I have found that while it's nice to think you'll "get through" to someone, unless they're the type that can accept honesty without going ballistic, it's a losing battle in my experience. Best of luck, whatever route you take.
posted by ml98tu at 9:08 AM on January 9, 2007
It depends on who you are, and how you deal with things.
I'd propose, "It depends on who she is, and how she deals with things."
I have a friend like yours and she absolutely cannot handle the truth or any negative comments about herself. Perhaps it has something to do with her self-absorbedness. If you don't think your response will be welcomed, you may want to consider just letting it go or being a friend at a distance. I have found that while it's nice to think you'll "get through" to someone, unless they're the type that can accept honesty without going ballistic, it's a losing battle in my experience. Best of luck, whatever route you take.
posted by ml98tu at 9:08 AM on January 9, 2007
how many times does someone go through the same wringer before they realize that they need to change how they ARE?
Because most people simply cannot under any circumstance change who they are. It's as "easy" as asking them to change their skin colour.
posted by watsondog at 1:03 PM on January 9, 2007
Because most people simply cannot under any circumstance change who they are. It's as "easy" as asking them to change their skin colour.
posted by watsondog at 1:03 PM on January 9, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
I don't see the reason you need to bring it up, unless her behavior is pushing you away and you want to keep her as a friend.
posted by MegoSteve at 3:11 PM on January 8, 2007